Lets racing time

At the 40-minute mark, Red kills and eats a family of four.

It's pretty awesome.

Incidently it took me all day but I got my Mega Man 3 footage up, and tossed Torgo links to both my footage and Nichs... so that just leaves Nari.

Yeah yeah, I'm slow. It'll be up tomorrow! ^_^

The last couple videos have been amazing to watch. The Pentathlon was genius and I would be very happy to see more challenge stuff like that. I think part of the reason it works so well is it's 5 games that I know pretty well but not just a straight front-to-back race of any of them. And some of the trolling in the setups was fabulous.

I think if I had been playing the Zelda part I would have got for medicine right away and done a regular save. I didn't see any reason why you couldn't do a normal save and use THAT to reset the game. I would have gotten the Magic sword, the Power Braclet, some red medicine, and then saved and quit on the overworld, then tried to go from the start to the forest fairy, warp back to the dungeon, and use that as my base for the runs if I died.

But lets be real, I never would have gotten out of the shaft of misery. Fuck that shit.

SML was amusing just because it's such a weird fever dream version of Mario, and even though I think I remember it, I know I would be horrible if I tried to play it today

Once the race was underway I was very glad that we had defined the challenges very broadly. I think we got a better range of solutions that way. If #4 had been "beat Quick Man with the pea shooter", for example, we would have been deprived of Jikku's heartbreaking (but eventually triumphant) slog against the lasers.

Just something to keep in mind for future challenge-designers.

I've got a bunch of ideas for challenges that I dreamed up for a series of videos I'm planning. I could part with a few though for another Pentathlon. ^_^

I completely forgot to comment on that. I thought it was a brilliant idea to just say "fuck it, I'll beat the level and then have the Flash Stopper for the battle." Shame about the execution.

The last time I played MM2 a year or so ago I could still get through the level without a problem, but I've never been able to figure out boss patterns in any game ever, so that would probably have been the way I would have eventually tried that one.

And yeah, broadly defined goals is the way to go. I'll have to try to think of some I'd like to see done.

There's a couple of race ideas I have in mind that I wouldn't mind seeing/taking part in:

- Mega Man 2 Challenge Run: Difficult, Buster Only (except where necessary)

I've done this run once myself, and it has its challenges. For the 8 Robot Master stages you only use the Buster. No weapons, no Item 1-3. Hope you have Heat Man's gauntlet memorized! Wily's Castle is where it starts to get tricky since there are places where you HAVE to use weapons, so there it's acceptable, but no where else. That includes Item 1 and Item 3 usage in Wily 1, using a weapon for the Dragon, Item 2 usage in Wily 2, Crash Bombs for Boobeam (and I suppose I'll allow some Item 1 and 3 usage there since without them I think it's impossible to beat the boss in one shot since you need them to get around unnecessary barriers) and the Alien Hologram.

I thought about making this one even balls-harder by adding a 'no E-Tank' clause, but that might be cruel.

- Super Mario World, No Star Road, No Switch Palaces

This one might take a bit, but it would be more breezy and fun than an unholy endurace test like the MM2 challenge. You don't need to beat every stage, but you cannot even enter the Star Road, not even if you don't intend to warp. No easy Blue Yoshi for you! You can otherwise take whatever route through the game you like.

- The Adventure of Link, New cycle game

This one might be madness, but I think it's do-able on a the game's 'New Game +'-ish mode. Starting off with 8 in all stats would make the early game breeze by, but it won't make the Great Temple gauntlet any easier.

Failing that, if everyone just wants to wuss out, or if Brickroad wants an idea for another Penthalon challenge, it can just be the Great Temple itself. Have a Save state starting at the entrance, and throw yourself at it until you win.

- Mega Man X, no weapons, no upgrades

Except of course, the leg upgrade which you can't not get. I'd allow dashing as well since it's basically baked into the gameplay and stage design, the fact that you don't start with it in MMX1 compared to the others is just kind of weird.

I can't remember off the top of my head if you absolutely need special weapons against any of the Sigma bosses, I'm pretty sure a fully charged pink blast will damage anything, and Zero hands you this upgrade for free as well.

Also, Sub-Tanks/Heart Tanks? Or no? Might that be too difficult?

Of course, a vanilla MMX run would be swell too.

Finally, this run would require some setting up, but I think it would be neat

- Final Fantasy III, Kefka's Tower

The way this one would work is that someone (ideally a third party who is not participating in the race itself) would provide a save state at the start of Kefka's Tower with a moderately built-up party. Everyone would then select their teams and blitz the tower to try and take down Kefka first.

Even better would be if the save state provider threw a few curveballs in party composition and developed some characters in unusual ways, overdeveloped some typically underused characters, or underdeveloped the usual power houses. FF3 being FF3, a decent party should still be able to clear the Tower. No save states allowed, hard saves only.

The biggest challenges with this one are that it would take some time and planning before it could be ready, it can't just be run on a whim in a day or two. Someone would need to play the game to the end for the sole purpose of providing a save game for everyone to use. Also, the start of the video might be a little dull as everyone looks over the party they're given and figures out what to do. Perhaps everyone could have 5-10 minutes to look over the party and make those boring choices before recording starts?

I would totally be down for either of these! I also have enough NES 'challenges' myself for 2 more maybe 3 pentathlons if that is something people are interested in. It might be fun for people to take turns hosting them so everyone can participate. (Translation: I wanna see Brickroad curse at a game for an hour.) XD

That Adventure of Link challenge sounds great. Not having to fight every enemy along the way would make the game fly by much faster.
Count me in if I'm available.

AoL with Level 8s makes some things way more fun, Like the Death Mountain run. I might actually say just get to the last palace, since otherwise the race is

Actually, a perfect Pentathlon challenge would be a normal Death Mountain run. Start with expected stats for that point in the game at the town and say "get the hammer).

I like the Kefka's Tower idea, but it might be a bit long. I'm trying to think of some good bit-sized challenges. I think that's what made the Pentathlon compelling.

TMNT NES: Damn Dam level

SMB2: Find the trickiest jumping stage (I think there's a good waterfall in world 5? Or the fish hopping in world 3). Finish as Toad.


Starfox 64: Get a medal (in any stage, start from normal stage 1). Possibly not the easiest to emulate...

SMB1: make everyone do that jump they said was so hard

SMB1: Finish World 8

I've got two similar challenges on my list too. There is also a website that had a ton of challenges listed, MAGfest I think... -googles it- yup... This website there are links at the top to two other pages listing challenges.

They give save-states for those challenges as well, but a good portion of them are insanely difficult. I think the difficulty would have to be lowered quite a bit for some of them. It is a good starting point however, if someone were looking for ideas of what a challenge SHOULD be.

I've done this once before. It's pretty damn hard, especially Sigma fortress. I'd be interested in participating in an MMX one of these but not a minimalist run like this.

If you're going to do a race, then it should be something that you could reasonably be expected to accomplish under no time pressure. I mean, look at how Super Mario Bros. turned out.

Well, I think that races you sign up for are fine for anything. I don't expect people to sign up for P only Mega Man 2 without knowing what they're getting into (though for that one specifically we should just allow items [not weapons] for all Wily stages, since there are so many exceptions to point out).

But any Pentathlon II should follow Brick's example and be (technically) doable by someone who's never played the game. Note how he pointed out where the lava you could stand on was in Metroid and gave you a full Level 6 map in Zelda. Even that's a little borderline: 6 is questionable there since I'm not sure a newbie could ever pull off 6 without a magic sword and seeing that that one wall is bomable from the map. But you've got the in-skype chatter for help (someone who's not aware of how to get star cards in Mario 3 would actually be stuck for a long time, now that I think about it).

Again, my benchmark was something like "could a brand new player conceivably pull this off with 30 minutes of practice and retries?"

And yeah, I was counting on Skype chatter for a few of these. That's why I found it so amusing when Nari was so tight-lipped with his information. =)

I stationed Zelda at the end of the challenge because it was so much harder and longer than the others. I knew chances were good that everyone would reach it, but not everyone would complete it. Drop-outs don't kill a race, though, so I figured that was okay.

I've got to agree that there's a place for challenge runs, but I don't know if the Pentathlon is the place to do it.

Who do I PM good idea to? Brick?

I think we need to make Brick play in the next one.

Yeah, that sounds like some good benchmarks/guidelines. Retracted repeatedly asking retracted during run two and retracted's repeated attempts to get calcification on the question were amusing for sure.

I would like to, yes.

I'll propose Mega Man X, Fire Wave only (except when you need the X-Buster). Do Flame Mammoth's stage first, and from then on you can only use the Fire Wave unless you need the X-Buster instead. Those Heart Tanks, Sub-Tanks, and upgrades you can still get are permitted.

Times you need the X-Buster, IIRC: underwater parts, fighting Armored Armadillo (you need charged shots to hurt him, and the Fire Wave doesn't have enough ammo for the purpose), Sigma's final form.

Much as I would love to race it, I might very well set this up for you guys. Personally, here's what I'm thinking:

• All the characters start at the same level. My argument here is that you're using almost every character anyway, so there's really no point to giving some characters a level advantage. As far as I'm concerned if no one wants to use Umaro, tough beans.
• Characters will all start with the same magic. No one will start with game-breaking stuff like Ultima or Quick.
• All Espers available (except Crusader)
• No Moogle Charm
• No Vanish/Doom or Vanish/X-Zone
• Strago will have a reasonably complete Lore list (basically, everything but the stuff that might be exclusive to the Tower)
• Same deal for Gau
• Mog will have all Dances, Cyan all Sword Techs, and Sabin all Blitzes.
• Weapons and armor availability will be what one could reasonably find or have with a thorough scouring of the game. You will have at least one of everything except what you would find inside the tower.

And then there are a couple choices racers will have to let me know before hand:

• Do you want the Gauntlet or Genji Glove from the Returners' Hideout?
• Do you want the Ragnarok sword or Ragnarok magicite? Would you like the sword upgraded to Illumina?
• Do you want Odin, or transform it to Raiden (bear in mind no one will start with Quick either way).

This all excludes anything you might get or learn in the Tower itself. If you want to grab Crusader and grind out Ultima and Quick on someone that's your business.

Suggestions are welcome.

I question how much skill goes into an RPG for a race at that point, though. I think there's got to be a certain amount of either twitch play or decision making to make it a good race game.

I suspect it's going to come down to who knows their way around the dungeon best, as well as knowing how to set up their characters so they don't have to grind levels.

However, something that might work a little better would be for the racers to detail their characters/party composition before hand under some sort of guidelines (ie. items allowed, characters must be at X level, etc), and use a savestate editor or something to finish that.

Though, that might work better for something like Final Fantasy V, where you set the characters to a certain level, and then give players a set number of AP to distribute to characters/classes as they please.

Best move would be to go straight to Narshe and pick up the Moogle Charm, then do several runs to clear out all of the bosses.

Moogle Charm should be banned entirely. Offering shouldn't be initially available, because Fixed Dice cheese isn't very interesting. Leave Ragnarok in Narshe and let the player decide whether to pick it up. Start all characters out with optimal storebought equipment and some reasonable Relic selection. Start Umaro with his unique Relics instead.

I'd honestly rather see each character with a unique magic list (we were working on these in the final fantasy thread a while back), myself. If everyone's got the same stuff then I think a lot of the run is on auto pilot.

Agree with banning moogle charm and and leaving offering behind, but some of the unique gear could be interesting (i.e. valiant knife, elemental gear). I'd ban the Economizer as well (and leave gem box at the top of the tower).

And that's the trouble with this kind of challenge. I like that with the NES Pentathlon that there were basically no rules besides "start here, do this." I like that we had someone go get the blue ring and someone try to just beat Quick Man's whole level from a continue. The more rules you have to layer on a thing the less organic and interesting I think it would be.

You are about to see me in a Super Mario Bros. 3 Race and a Mega Man 3 race. When you do you'll understand why I was holding onto little advantages. XD

I cannot WAIT for those to go live...