"One to be born from a dragon..." -- Let's Play Final Fantasy II

Egarwaen · #**181** 01-18-2011, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brickroad

I want you to just drink in this screenshot a little bit, and appreciate the care and detail that went into the mapwork here. I don't mean the graphics, although the graphics do indeed have their own style of 16-bit charm. I mean the mapwork. I mean, really look at how this location is laid out, and how it fits together.

Where dungeons in NES RPGs are largely just colored rooms and hallways, this looks much more like an actual cave. There's a randomness to the walls and layers here. There are multiple levels of elevation. A thin layer of mist hangs in the air, and thicker masses roil in the depths below. This place wasn't built. It was made as navigable as possible by the people who had to use it, who laid down bridges and carved stairs, but by and large this is a god's honest cave.

Now imagine it's 1991, and you're not noticing any of this, because you're eleven and stupid and have a snotty nose. All you know is that something is way better about this cave than any other cave you've ever been in, but you can't place your finger on what. That's how subtle the paradigm shift from 8- to 16-bits is in some places.

If you've never tried to draw an RPG map before, you can take my word for this: it is hard to make a cave look like this. It takes hours. But it's one of the most effective ways to connect with the player's imagination in a way RPGs hadn't been able to do before. It's this kind of thing that allowed these games to tell stories and develop worlds while their forebears were stuck engaging you by juggling stats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tanto

This is a good point, and one that's been bothering me a lot recently. Most modern RPGs that I've played recently, especially the ones that are deliberately trying to ape old-school games, have regressed back to the "rooms 'n' hallways" school of dungeon design. Suikoden Tierkreis did it, Glory of Heracles did it, Arc Rise Fantasia did it, 4 Heroes of Light did it. It really annoys me that we've got all this technology at our fingertips but we're still running featureless corridors after all these years. Say what you will about Golden Sun or the Tales games (and I usually do), but at least their dungeons are interesting to negotiate.

Even a lot of high-budget, big console titles do it. FFIX and FFXIII were terrible about this. FFXIII's dungeons aren't just plain, straight corridors, they look like plain, straight corridors. It also clearly highlights FF's strengths over DQ - the dungeons in DQIV and DQV, at least the DS remakes, are really bad about being featureless corridors. (Much of the time)

I hadn't realized why FFIV and FFVI's dungeons felt so much better until I read this, but... Yeah.

Loki · #**182** 01-18-2011, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brickroad

He even goes so far as to helpfully break the fourth wall, teaching Cecil how to walk around and talk to people.

See this? This was all the tutorial games needed back in 1991.

Ahahaha. Awesome. Arguably, it wasn't needed at all. The tiniest bit of experimentation would teach you how to move and talk. I love the idea that Square thought that players would be so impressed by everything up to this point they would forget they were playing a game and would just sit there, controller in their hands, wondering why nothing was happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zef

And THIS is the second defining moment of Final Fantasy II. "Theme of Love" is the best and finest love theme (duh) Uematsu and his successors have ever composed for this series.

Eh. I always thought it sounded kinda shrill.

Torgo · #**183** 01-18-2011, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zef

Awwwww yeah. THIS, above all, is Final Fantasy. Accept no substitutions. 16-bit graphics and simple sprites don't matter, it's just you and your best friend venturing out at the crack of dawn to explore a whole new world, gates opening before you ponderously and guards hastily moving aside.

And all set to the heroic, majestic Prologue.

Never has FFII 's use of Prologue been outdone, nor outclassed. Not by FFXII, which tried real hard, but it was all nostalgia. Not by FFVIII and its military arrangement. Not by the half-dozen orchestral arrangements, be they string, brass, or even piano.

I will second every last word of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zef

Oh, and even better. Zeromus "Final Battle" grabs the main motif of the theme and warps it and makes it terrifying. Or desperate, either fits the situation.

...How did I never notice this before.

ThricebornPhoenix · #**184** 01-18-2011, 03:57 AM

I once wrote about how the pacing of this game is awesome but it ruined the music (slight early spoilers, sort of). It may be good, but unless you make a special effort, you're not going to hear much of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki

The tiniest bit of experimentation would teach you how to move and talk.

Some people would be impossibly stuck without someone to tell them that they can press buttons.

Loki · #**185** 01-18-2011, 04:18 AM

Really? Come now.

ThricebornPhoenix · #**186** 01-18-2011, 04:33 AM

Yes. For example, a dungeon track always restarts after a battl-

Wait, do you mean the other thing? Because if so, you don't read forums (even Talking Time) often enough. When it comes to RPGs, even otherwise experienced gamers are often confused by basic, obvious concepts. For that matter, someone with a great deal of experience with one RPG may be utterly baffled by a similar but slightly different RPG.

Loki · #**187** 01-18-2011, 04:41 AM

Yes, but I refuse to believe that anyone, besides the most mentally disabled, who sat down to play a videogame with a controler in their hands would need to be told to press the buttons.

That's like a book telling you to turn the page to continue reading.

Octopus Prime · #**188** 01-18-2011, 05:19 AM

And if you tried to read a choose-your-own-adventure book sequentially, well, you'd be in for one HECK of a hard-to-follow story.

Merus · #**189** 01-18-2011, 05:21 AM

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Originally Posted by Brickroad

Sometimes the line between "character dialogue" and "stage direction" is overwhelmingly fuzzy. Is this soldier enthusiastically saluting his superior officer? Or is he merely socially challenged? The world may never know.

So is that what you call French people?

Quote:

And with that, Cecil's reunion with the person he cherishes most in the whole world is over: he blows her off with a vague promise of lukewarm interaction at some unspecified later time.

Smooth.

He's negging, Brick. Gotta keep the ladies wantin' more.

Sven · #**190** 01-18-2011, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Even a lot of high-budget, big console titles do it. FFIX and FFXIII were terrible about this. FFXIII's dungeons aren't just plain, straight corridors, they look like plain, straight corridors. It also clearly highlights FF's strengths over DQ - the dungeons in DQIV and DQV, at least the DS remakes, are really bad about being featureless corridors. (Much of the time)

Even the games that weren't technically Final Fantasy games aped the more flowing dungeon design; the first dungeon in Legend II (another one of the roll-your-own-party games that, in retrospect, tainted this one for me, especially as that also tried to tell a good story) is small, but is still organic-feeling.

Quote:

One thing about using Kain as a frontliner, though, is that his heavy armor and good damage output make him a very decent tank. My usual endgame formation puts him and Cecil up front, with everyone else flinging stuff from the back row.

Yeah - the "tank" interpretation is carried forward into FFV, where Dragoons are very good in that role even if you're not jumping around.

ais523 · #**191** 01-18-2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octopus Prime

And if you tried to read a choose-your-own-adventure book sequentially, well, you'd be in for one HECK of a hard-to-follow story.

I actually do read them sequentially nowadays, it's a lot more fun that way. (Especially the particularly lethal ones which have points of no return every couple of pages, around half of which have vital items involved and the other half of which have instadeaths.) I normally look through a second time where I trace the other end of a numerical reference down one or two levels.

Egarwaen · #**192** 01-18-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

Even the games that weren't technically Final Fantasy games aped the more flowing dungeon design; the first dungeon in Legend II (another one of the roll-your-own-party games that, in retrospect, tainted this one for me, especially as that also tried to tell a good story) is small, but is still organic-feeling.

The more I think about this, the more it bugs me. I can see how it happened too. Starting with FFVIII, Square starts getting progssively lazier with dungeon designs, trusting on pretty, pre-rendered visuals to make up for the loss. And the rest of the industry either follows suit (see the list of games mentioned above) or was already there (DQ). There are a handful of throwbacks. For example, I think one reason FFXII works as well as it does is because a lot of its locations feel like real (or believably fantastic) places, with a handful of notable exceptions.

Sky Render · #**193** 01-18-2011, 11:18 AM

The whole "dungeon design" thing kinda makes me regret I didn't take more time to sit down and actually DESIGN the dungeons in that old RM2K3 RPG I made ages ago instead of basically drawing a maze and adding in details for all of them. Though I did figure out the concept of proper dungeon design later, that was well after Legend of Shenja was released.

Comb Stranger · #**194** 01-18-2011, 11:56 AM

As a youngin', I never realized that Kain's eyes were supposed to be those dark spots under his dragon hat. I always though he had a creepy stretched-out horse face.

Vaeran · #**195** 01-18-2011, 12:40 PM

Those round armor parts under Cecil's collar in his menu portrait always looked to me like he's got his dukes up.

Comb Stranger · #**196** 01-18-2011, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaeran

Those round armor parts under Cecil's collar in his menu portrait always looked to me like he's got his dukes up.

He's in the middle of popping his metal collar.

McClain · #**197** 01-18-2011, 03:13 PM

Man, I tried to play my PS1 version on my PS3, and it caused some c-razy graphic bugs. Anyone else have that problem?

Luckily, my PS2 still works just fine.

Pajaro Pete · #**198** 01-18-2011, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawnswalker

Man, that Kain is one sexy piece of ass. Rosa totally doesn't get what she's missing.

(And is that... cameltoe?)

Reminder: The official word is that he's six feet tall and weighs 134 lbs.

ThricebornPhoenix · #**199** 01-19-2011, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki

Yes, but I refuse to believe that anyone, besides the most mentally disabled, who sat down to play a videogame with a controler in their hands would need to be told to press the buttons.

Actually, it's telling you both which button to use to talk to people and that you should do so, and there are definitely people who need one or both instructions.

Mangrove · #**200** 01-19-2011, 12:35 AM

Now this is the thread I've been waiting for as my cue to get involved! This game has had a hold on me ever since I played it as a kid in '92 and my memories of playing through it are some of my most treasured gaming experiences. I think it's the music that really did it for me. The original soundtrack, plus all of the excellent arrangements like those on Celtic Moon really are the reasons I still like the game so much.

Last Christmas a friend of mine gave me a collection of FF sheet music for classical guitar with themes from FF1 through 10. You'd better believe that the first tunes I learned from it were "Theme of Love" and "Melody of Lute!"

Refa · #**201** 01-19-2011, 12:45 AM

I'm pretty sure they teach "Theme Of Love" to Japanese schoolchildren, so I guess it's a popular theme over there.

beanbrew · #**202** 01-19-2011, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turnip

Reminder: The official word is that he's six feet tall and weighs 134 lbs.

That makes no sense. At all. He must be like a twig but all that muscle and- and-*kersplode*

Pajaro Pete · #**203** 01-19-2011, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanbrew

That makes no sense. At all. He must be like a twig but all that muscle and- and-*kersplode*

Joanna, Fang and Mr. Pollendina are the only characters with height/weight ratios that even begin to remotely make sense.

Kishi · #**204** 01-19-2011, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brickroad

Most of the dungeons in FF2 are caves, but unlike FF1 (which was limited to palette swaps) FF2 is able to give each cave its own unique character. The Misty Cave is bathed in thick fog, and is characterized by curved cliff faces and deep holes punched through the topography.

One of my very first memories of FFIV is reading small FAQs devoted to the fact that SNES emulators circa 1998 or so still couldn't handle transparencies, so you could just follow step-by-step instructions on how to traverse the Mist Cave (or the Ship Graveyard in FFV) blind. I want to go back there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brickroad

With that, the mist in the cave gathers around the knights, congealing into the game's first boss: D.Mist.

That the mist-gathering animation (which is a pretty impressive effect for a first-generation SNES game) isn't just right is one of the many things that bother me about FFIV Advance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zef

So infrequent, that I stopped seeing them altogether shortly after Tellah joined up.

Aren't the critical hits bugged in some way, so characters are bound to stop getting them after leaving and rejoining the party? Or something like that.

Elements · #**205** 01-19-2011, 05:30 AM

Did we mention that this is the first FF game to have the extended Prelude (and for the Prelude text to not be the first screen of the game)? That serves as a large indicator for me of the new epic heights this game was reaching for.

Regarding Cid, while this is the first true party member incarnation, FF3 Cid half-joined your party in the inactive 5th slot. I view the series progression as:
- FF1: 4 set party members.
- FF2: Now, the 4th slot is a dynamic rotating character slot!
- FF3: Back to 4 to maximize use of new job system, but dynamic rotating slot is now inactive 5th party member!
- FF4: Screw it, we'll just give you all 5 slots, and make all but Cecil dynamic!

The scene of Rosa coming to see Cecil at night really sold this game for me. I had major respect for the ambient sound of the clock once Cecil turned in for the night. That whole scene blew my young mind, so I was nice and vulnerable for the following FF theme.

Cecil's portrait always bugged me. His sprite has always looked absolutely awesome to me, but his portrait just looks like a generic fodder enemy portrait. Also, I look at that Kain art and I can't help seeing genuine side-wang. It's rather startling.

At any rate, this is already making me desperately want to play this game again. I might be giving in...

Vaeran · #**206** 01-19-2011, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishi

Aren't the critical hits bugged in some way, so characters are bound to stop getting them after leaving and rejoining the party? Or something like that.

Yeah, this came up in one of the earlier FF threads. Apparently the deal is that certain weapons have a critical hit chance of 0% (which was probably intentional), but that stat sticks to the character even after they've unequipped the weapon and can't be altered (which was probably not). I guess if you had a list of the affected weapons, you could avoid most of them and still be able to deal crits at the end of the game, but one of the most prominent examples is the whip adult Rydia rejoins the party with, so that character can never land a critical after that point no matter what you do.

Zef · #**207** 01-19-2011, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishi

One of my very first memories of FFIV is reading small FAQs devoted to the fact that SNES emulators circa 1998 or so still couldn't handle transparencies, so you could just follow step-by-step instructions on how to traverse the Mist Cave (or the Ship Graveyard in FFV) blind. I want to go back there.

I don't. I played FFV for the first time via emulator, and I had to do the Graveyard completely blind and without a FAQ. It was a MIRACLE I got through, and you bet I state-saved in every available slot when I got to the end of that.

But anyway, FFII without its Mode 7 transparency effects just isn't FFII at all. FF4Adv, for all its improvements, really missed out on this.

Quote:

That the mist-gathering animation (which is a pretty impressive effect for a first-generation SNES game) isn't just right is one of the many things that bother me about FFIV Advance.

Yeah, but even on the SNES, all these effects (mist-gathering, healing pots,) start out as a ring around the character sprite, but for some reason they all turn into a tight curved line when they're almost on top of him. It's a quirky oversight, I guess

Quote:

Originally Posted by p4g4n3l3m3nt5

Also, I look at that Kain art and I can't help seeing genuine side-wang. It's rather startling.

PEOPLE

STOP POINTING IT OUT PEOPLE

I NOTICED IT WHEN I WAS 12 AND I DON'T WANT TO KEEP NOTICING BUT YOU PEOPLE KEEP

AGH

Brickroad · #**208** 01-19-2011, 09:14 AM

hey guys did you see kain's scrotum

kain has a scrotum

here it is:

that's where he keeps his testicles (aka nuts)

Loki · #**209** 01-19-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThricebornPhoenix

Actually, it's telling you both which button to use to talk to people and that you should do so, and there are definitely people who need one or both instructions.

No, there's not, unless you can cite a specific example of someone not playing a game until it told him to press buttons. I'm tired of this stupid generalization. It's the reason why Zelda games tell us what a key is every time we pick one up. Assuming the player is too dumb to figure out what a button does by pressing it is bad game design and downright insulting.

Sky Render · #**210** 01-19-2011, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki

No, there's not, unless you can cite a specific example of someone not playing a game until it told him to press buttons. I'm tired of this stupid generalization. It's the reason why Zelda games tell us what a key is every time we pick one up. Assuming the player is too dumb to figure out what a button does by pressing it is bad game design and downright insulting.

While I have met people whose first question upon starting a game is "what button does what?", I have never met anyone genuinely thick enough to not grasp that you press buttons on the controller to get things to happen on screen. However, some of those aforementioned button-questioners will not even try to play a game until they actually know exactly what buttons do what. So yes, there is a precedent.