To Infinity and Beyond: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Zef]

I just realized that Wandavision is the MCU response to SMT Strange Journey:

Spoiler: I'm going to call Westview the "Rotwelt" from now on.

The Hex wall disassembles and reassembles people and objects at a molecular level, rearranging them to the user's will. Just like the Schwarzwelt plasma wall.

Wanda is Chaos-aligned, like Mem Aleph. Chaos is coded red in SMT.

Wanda can reconstruct reality, like the master of the Schwarzwelt.

Wanda is a a Mother, and like all the Schwarzwelt Mothers, she has a MA root in her name.

Wanda recreated Vision wholesale, just like the Mothers of the Schwarzwelt recreated the Fathers after their defeat.

 

[Sprite]

I'm wondering if the RGB CRT television pixels in the credits are supposed to be red for Wanda, green for Vision, and blue for Monica.

 

[Nich]

In the first seven episodes, they were only red and green. The purple pixels were introduced after Agatha's reveal.

 

[Sprite]

They look blue to me?

 

[Johnny Unusual]

I called White Vision too! I don’t think in this thread specifically, but I was sure he was coming ever since seeing Zombie Vision back in episode 3.

Or as I call him arcade game Vision.

 

[Zef]

It's only been two days, an after some emotional reactions to that line in ep 9 (really, no more effusive than anything else fans gush over every new episode), suddenly my Twitter TL is bursting with people calling it stupid, Hallmark-quality, "not-Shakespeare", or Seanbaby-types making fun of people who liked it or connected with it.

And, for the most part, it's the same people --even Big Name writers, or known progressives-- who just a few years or even months ago condemned South Park for creating a culture where "having emotions" deserves mockery.

It's weird to see them turn on their own values like this, but I guess anyone can become a Toxic Nerd when they get the chance to prove their superiority to Casuals.

 

[Neo Skimbleshanks]

Don’t know what line you’re referring to, but I think it’s fine to disparage this eminently criticizable product. (I generally like it, though) And that seems like a different category of criticism than disparaging people who like it. I recommend muting anyone who is saying things to upset you on Twitter. Even if you generally like them. There will be enough tweets and Twitter is a stress machine.

 

[Zef]

Hmm, OK, yeah, on the one hand, I did not convey my point well enough, because that's not at all what I meant, so I guess that's on me.

On the other, I could have done without the condescension or assumptions about me.

 

[Neo Skimbleshanks]

That was sincere advice about Twitter from someone who has spent a lot of time on Twitter! I didn’t intend anything to be condescending, I was just trying to plainly respond to your post. I’m sorry.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I just got to watch it before work this morning, I'll save discussion for later but be warned there's a mid-credits scene AND a post-credits scene, just like the good ol' days of MCU movies in theater!

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I’d love to have watched it already and lined up the popcorn to do so, but the D+ servers have been down since midnight here on the West Coast with no sign of coming back anytime soon. Pretty pathetic and inexcusable.

 

[Octopus Prime]

Foolish of me to ask on today, if all days, when I should be avoiding this thread until I am free from the fear of spoilers, but here we are;

Both Runaways and Cloak and Dagger are on D+ up here in the Hinterlands. Are they worth it?

 

[Neo Skimbleshanks]

I liked Runaways, which is unsurprising bc I like the comic, The OC, Gossip Girl, and much of the adult cast’s past work on TV. Meant to check out Cloak and Dagger but never did. Pilot directed by Gina Prince-Blythewood.

 

[Zef]

Both Runaways and Cloak and Dagger are on D+ up here in the Hinterlands. Are they worth it?

Didn't watch Runaways, but C&D has the feel of a good CW show produced by Marvel. I liked it, and I liked the characters. Dunno if there's any continuity with the rest of Marvel TV though.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Welp, that ended about as I expected. Which is that it turned into a marvel movie at the end. Which is not bad, just not remotely interesting. Good show overall. Don’t regret my time with it, but do regret paying for Disney+

 

[Zef]

Welp, that ended about as I expected. Which is that it turned into a marvel movie at the end. Which is not bad, just not remotely interesting.

I assume you mean how a story that had drawn material from many different points to create a self-contained narrative suddenly exploded into many open-ended plot lines that will be picked up by multiple other shows and/or movies? Or the actual physical component of the confrontations?

Honestly I expected a huge chunk of those new plot lines to fade into the distance as "To Be Continued," I just wasn't clear on which ones or how. I'm interested in the possibilities that White Vision may bring, and I'm not crying foul for it anymore since he was definitely shaken by what, ahem, Wanda Vision showed him. The kids are obviously coming back, too. And I like that Agatha namedropped the Sorcerer Supreme, acknowledging the connection between the Witches and the Masters of the Mystic Arts. And of course the Captain Marvel 2 mid-credits stinger As far as references go, the blatant mirror to Strange studying his books while astral-projecting was really fun, and I'm looking forward to their interaction even more than I was before.

What I'm still very puzzled about is why some spells cast inside the Hex were tied to it while others seem to be permanent? I think it's implied Monica will keep her powers despite having been de-rezzed four times already, and Agatha will also be trapped in Agnes even past the de-Hexing (but, uh, what, is she going to be homeless?) But then the show first tells us Viz can't exist outside the Hex, and then it explicitly shows that he was recreated as a completely separate spell. Can't Wanda cast a new spell on her family that "fixes" them to reality the same way Agnes is?

I have to admit, since I wasn't very invested in that particular plotline, I chortled at everyone's boner

 

[WildcatJF]

I'm really happy with how it turned out, honestly. Without getting into spoilers too much, I think it ended without the pomp and circumstance of a typical Marvel property with some tenderness and emotional heft not normally there in the last few minutes of most of the films. Sure, big action scene, but it closed on Wanda's acceptance of reality, and letting go of the coping mechanisms and advancing on her journey forward. I love that.

 

[Sprite]

I thought it was a perfect TV show, and wasn’t too weighed down by its duty to the next part of the franchise, though of course it was a little bit.

Spoiler

- I am amazed that Marvel made something this small and sweet, with only 10% punching by volume. And most of the Agatha fight was character-driven, confronting Wanda about what she had done.

- I wish they hadn’t had Agatha kill a puppy, as other than that she’s not really any more villainous than Wanda, which is what makes her a great villain. Wanda’s treatment of her at the end was still pretty cruel, though also exactly what Agatha was planning to do to Wanda.

- I like that the Vision fight ended in a logic puzzle. I’m a little worried that White Vision being THE Vision will eventually undo the consequences of this show, but that still won’t make this show bad in retrospect. At this point Vision seems to be Wanda’s ex with an intense impulse for murder-suicide, which is very comic book-y in its maudlin twistedness.

- I fully expected the kids to make it out of this intact, so the teaser at the end made sense to me. I thought it worked fine as a cap to this story, where Wanda is only a little bit better, but still not healed. And I think them coming back would be fine.

- “Boys, handle the military. Mommy will be right back.” Mmmmmm, delicious!

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I assume you mean how a story that had drawn material from many different points to create a self-contained narrative suddenly exploded into many open-ended plot lines that will be picked up by multiple other shows and/or movies? Or the actual physical component of the confrontations?

It was mostly just now is the part where we have a big action fight with a helping of no consequences for the good guys doing bad things because they're the good guys and we like them with tons of zaney jokes peppered about.

The kids are obviously coming back, too.

I don't know about this? Like, it's possible definitely possible, maybe even very likely. But I think that post-credits stinger is more about setting up character motivations for future movies. Doesn't mean it'll actually come to fruition.

What I'm still very puzzled about is why some spells cast inside the Hex were tied to it while others seem to be permanent?

Well, the reason why Monica is gonna keep her powers is because the hex activated the x-gene. But the real reason is because consistent internal logic has never been a strong suit of the MCU.

 

[Zef]

Yeah, that part didn't really sit well with me either. As in, yes, we understand, sympathize, and empathize with her pain, but she still subjected a whole town to severe psychological torture, adults and kids alike, and part of her self-healing and witch-learning process should include acknowledging this, internalizing it, and accepting the consequences of it. Yes, go and self-actualize into the best version of yourself, Wanda, it's great seeing you come into your own (not in terms of power, but in terms of her personal development), bu you weren't exactly a hero here and retiring to Thanos's winter cabin to start your training isn't really going to make up for anything.

 

[Sprite]

Finished it, thought that ending was kinda whatever. Wanda got off way too easy; she didn't even apologize to any of the townspeople and instead of that hypothetical scene we got another superhero reassuring her that all those people are just judgemental jerks who can't possibly understand what she's gone through.

Yeah, Monica’s line about “sacrifice” was BS.

 

[SpoonyBard]

That's probably the main thing that bugs me about the ending too. On the one hand the show doesn't wipe away Wanda's culpability like I was fearing it might when Agatha had her big villain song, this was still all Wanda's doing and Agatha was just taking advantage of the chaos. Much like Hayward, honestly. But I think 'Wanda really feels kinda bad about what she put the town through' was not nearly consequential enough.

Other little things that bugged me: Jimmy and Darcy barely getting to do anything. Jimmy merely makes sure the Hayward plot thread isn't left dangling, and Darcy makes double-sure when she keeps him from escaping. But she really should have been present for the ending, she didn't even get to meet Wanda in person and fangirl over the sitcom.

Also I would have liked to have gotten an inkling of where Vision the White flew off to. At first I thought he was going to self-destruct or something since WandaVision successfully convinced him he was the real Vision and his directive was to destroy the Vision but he just flies away. We'l probably know before long in some future movie but it still feels like a weird omission, especially since Monica got her big movie stinger with the Skrull. (the show doesn't confirm it, but I like to think that one Skrull agent was the same Skrull child Monica was bonding with at the end of Captain Marvel)

But, those issues aside, I thought it was a good capstone to a great series. Both Wanda and Vision sorely needed fleshing out and they just weren't getting it in the movies where they were secondary players.

And as far as the future MCU is concerned, I like that Agatha is still alive to cause trouble (removing her from the MCU would have been a tremendous waste of talent), Monica is primed to go on a SPACE ADVENTURE and work out whatever issues she has with Carol, there is a Vision out there that will hopefully finish his paint job, and though we never got a cameo of a Benedict, neither Cumberbatch nor Wong, the Sorcerer Supreme was still title-dropped and Wanda eventually seeking him out will feel a bit more natural.

And I appreciate them having the spine to have Evan Peters in the series, as Pietro, but have it all be a literal boner. They must've knew his appearance would drive the fan-theory machine into a frenzy and there would be blowback when it turned out he wasn't heralding the merging of the MCU and the FOX X-verse and they did it anyway. I can't hate a troll such as that. Bravo.

 

[Zef]

Also, it was nice to have SWORD while it lasted*. There's still a bunch of questions about how they obtained Viz, and the "right" to dismantle/reverse-engineer/turn him into a controllable weapon, during the five years Cap and Tony and Bruce and Thor were still around to object, unless they just told the Avengers they'd keep him stored for safekeeping and then immediately worked their saws the minute Cap and Tony were gone. I'm surprised the Skrull would refer to Fury as "an old friend of your Mom's", which, again, implies Fury also didn't have much contact with Maria on a personal level. I know, I know, it's a line that's written more as an elbow into the audience's ribs than meaningful characterization, but still.

* Now give us Agents of HATE, Gobsdammit.

 

[Octopus Prime]

Cant say I didn’t love every bit of it, honestly. Even about Monica kind of dismissing weeks of psychological torture for everyone in town. The scenes right before it were kind of busting down my emotional walls all on their own.

It could have done with more Kat Denning, but this is true of most media.

Vision has to be the dyingest guy in the entire MCU, isn’t he?

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

There's still a bunch of questions about how they obtained Viz, and the "right" to dismantle/reverse-engineer/turn him into a controllable weapon, during the five years Cap and Tony and Bruce and Thor were still around to object

I'm not particularly bothered by this. All four of those Avengers were almost completely broken from the Snap. Thor became a shut-in NEET, Tony fucked off to the woods to start a family, Bruce worked on himself first and foremost and found inner peace, and Cap coped by diving even harder into his hero-work and seemed stretched extremely thin by it. (Same with Nat, btw.) None of them were in the headspace to care much about a single guy when they each felt they'd personally failed billions.

The thing that bothered me more is how isolated Wanda felt during her Avengers-period, when she was ostensibly surrounded by people who had the emotional bandwidth and spare time to help her feel less alone and maladjusted. It just seems like pretty poor form/not heroic to just let her languish by herself in the compound. But I chalk that up to A) most of the Avengers not being great people to begin with, and B) most of the high-character ones bailing early during her tenure like Cap.

 

[Zef]

Feels like Sam would've been a great help to her during that period, huh? What with that being his day job before he met Steve.

 

[Octopus Prime]

Your priorities change a bit when you get a bird suit

 

[Sprite]

I’m sure the other Avengers would have tried cheering her up, but Vision basically approached her like a sitcom dad, gave her a profound but very sitcom-y talk, and then dropped the subject to watch sitcoms with her.

I didn’t buy the WV relationship before this show, but man that scene really sold me on it.

 

[Adrenaline]

Runaways and Cloak and Dagger tie in with each other but nothing else. They're fine but skippable.

 

[Octopus Prime]

Been a while since I watched through that arc, but wasn’t the Darkhold destroyed in Agents of Shield?

I mean, it’s a magic Evil Bible so “destroyed” is kind of an open concept