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ArugulaZ

Fearful asymmetry
That's okay, they can just start a bunkus brand rehabilitation campaign where they claim they'll remove all the Sonic games that earn ratings below 69% from store shelves, without actually doing that. Anyone remember that?
 
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muteKi

Ell eye ell why, ee ee ell why
Workaround for the Tails despawn glitch is to press up+jump to trigger fly mode which forces a respawn since he's offscreen
 
I have mixed feelings about those tweets. It's partly the tweet author's responsibility to make sure that his work is properly integrated into the final result. It comes across that he turned in his work at the very last minute and crossed his fingers that Sega would be able to integrate it successfully.
It's also simply bad form to throw your collaborators under the bus.
 

madhair60

Video games
I have mixed feelings about those tweets. It's partly the tweet author's responsibility to make sure that his work is properly integrated into the final result. It comes across that he turned in his work at the very last minute and crossed his fingers that Sega would be able to integrate it successfully.
It's also simply bad form to throw your collaborators under the bus.

+1
 

Ludendorkk

(he/him)
I have mixed feelings about those tweets. It's partly the tweet author's responsibility to make sure that his work is properly integrated into the final result. It comes across that he turned in his work at the very last minute and crossed his fingers that Sega would be able to integrate it successfully.

The rest of tweet thread makes clear that they were recruited at short notice, worked under crunch conditions, and repeatedly asked for more time and were refused.

It's also simply bad form to throw your collaborators under the bus.

I've seen seen this take repeatedly and it leaves me confused -- no doubt this is bridge-burning, but as someone who's only relationship to these people is playing the game they put out, I don't know why I'm supposed to care about the office politics/etiquette angle at all. (Even then he goes out of his way to emphasize that Sonic Team worked hard and it wasn't there call, if this is supposed to be "drama" it is tame af).
 

muteKi

Ell eye ell why, ee ee ell why
The restructuring of the Sonic CD ending video to have the footage run at 60 FPS is a controversial choice. To get the audio to synchronize with the sped-up footage, they no longer include the sound effects at the start of the video. Based on what a fellow by the name of DefinitiveDubs pointed out on Sonic Retro, there's some things to point out here that have softened my opinion here. Let's look at some of the versions of the outro and how they timed themselves.


The footage from the original Mega CD release was redrawn. Due to how much data had to be transferred to the Genesis to actually do this -- effectively uncompressed, hence why the footage is so clean -- it runs at, I believe, somewhere around 15-18 FPS. Note that it doesn't synchronize up very well to the audio, especially at the start. The orchestra hit that ends the intro to the song shows up around the same time that Sonic's head shows up for the ending sequence, and I don't think the frame pacing is particularly consistent.


All rereleases of the game since have used video files of the animation of the ending. The most notable of these is the 2011 rerelease from mobile and ported to other systems such as the PC. It's been retimed to fit the sound effects a bit better, and recorded at 30 FPS. Because the framerate of the video doesn't match up with the frame pacing, there are a number of blurred frames in the outputted video. The piano intro also comes a little earlier into the footage (the last few bits of chain dropping have no SFX, as a result), but it's timed such that Sonic's pose occurs when that orchestra hit occurs. Note that while the original release has a re-recorded song that lacks the vocals due to licensing rights issues, modding the original audio back in isn't a particularly challenging task and has been done.

So what of the version in Origins?


It's running at 60 FPS, so there are no frame blends. The animation is extremely smooth as a result -- and note how well the piano line in the intro matches the motion of the footage, especially at the start. And when we play the footage like this, note that the orchestra hit and Sonic pose are timed together just like in the 2011 footage. The next few clips (based on scenes of footage from the game), including one presumably inspired by a level cut during development also fit the pace of the audio much better the way they've been used here.

I know there are people who think that the original recording with the SFX was better, but I think the motion at 60 FPS fits the pace of the underlying music much better. The lack of foley may be jarring for some people, but I actually like the way this turned out a lot in retrospect, and it's hard not to think this was somehow secretly the way it was intended.


Note also that the framerate of the intro and outro was not shared with the pencil test footage, which even on Sega CD runs at a much higher framerate more in line with the footage of the games. This footage consists of the bits of the intro and outro that were part of the original animation sequences but cut out due to needing to sync with audio in the case of the intro and not referencing an included part of the game in the outro. Because it's much simpler data, being only in black and white, it runs on the Sega CD without the frame pacing issues. Note that the rate of playback (while it doesn't look to be 60 FPS) matches that of the sped-up ending.


And here's a comparison footage across all releases of the game, though it doesn't compare the pencil test footage to the outro of the game
 

Ludendorkk

(he/him)
The restructuring of the Sonic CD ending video to have the footage run at 60 FPS is a controversial choice. To get the audio to synchronize with the sped-up footage, they no longer include the sound effects at the start of the video. Based on what a fellow by the name of DefinitiveDubs pointed out on Sonic Retro, there's some things to point out here that have softened my opinion here. Let's look at some of the versions of the outro and how they timed themselves.


The footage from the original Mega CD release was redrawn. Due to how much data had to be transferred to the Genesis to actually do this -- effectively uncompressed, hence why the footage is so clean -- it runs at, I believe, somewhere around 15-18 FPS. Note that it doesn't synchronize up very well to the audio, especially at the start. The orchestra hit that ends the intro to the song shows up around the same time that Sonic's head shows up for the ending sequence, and I don't think the frame pacing is particularly consistent.


All rereleases of the game since have used video files of the animation of the ending. The most notable of these is the 2011 rerelease from mobile and ported to other systems such as the PC. It's been retimed to fit the sound effects a bit better, and recorded at 30 FPS. Because the framerate of the video doesn't match up with the frame pacing, there are a number of blurred frames in the outputted video. The piano intro also comes a little earlier into the footage (the last few bits of chain dropping have no SFX, as a result), but it's timed such that Sonic's pose occurs when that orchestra hit occurs. Note that while the original release has a re-recorded song that lacks the vocals due to licensing rights issues, modding the original audio back in isn't a particularly challenging task and has been done.

So what of the version in Origins?


It's running at 60 FPS, so there are no frame blends. The animation is extremely smooth as a result -- and note how well the piano line in the intro matches the motion of the footage, especially at the start. And when we play the footage like this, note that the orchestra hit and Sonic pose are timed together just like in the 2011 footage. The next few clips (based on scenes of footage from the game), including one presumably inspired by a level cut during development also fit the pace of the audio much better the way they've been used here.

I know there are people who think that the original recording with the SFX was better, but I think the motion at 60 FPS fits the pace of the underlying music much better. The lack of foley may be jarring for some people, but I actually like the way this turned out a lot in retrospect, and it's hard not to think this was somehow secretly the way it was intended.


Note also that the framerate of the intro and outro was not shared with the pencil test footage, which even on Sega CD runs at a much higher framerate more in line with the footage of the games. This footage consists of the bits of the intro and outro that were part of the original animation sequences but cut out due to needing to sync with audio in the case of the intro and not referencing an included part of the game in the outro. Because it's much simpler data, being only in black and white, it runs on the Sega CD without the frame pacing issues. Note that the rate of playback (while it doesn't look to be 60 FPS) matches that of the sped-up ending.


And here's a comparison footage across all releases of the game, though it doesn't compare the pencil test footage to the outro of the game

I am consistently awed by the depth of your Sonic analysis, MuteKi
 

muteKi

Ell eye ell why, ee ee ell why
As far as mission modes go, Sonic 2's are probably the hardest (go figure -- while scrap brain pulls zero punches, just the combination of oil ocean and metropolis one after the other is a brutal onslaught of cheap hits), but I do think that this 4-star mission is possibly the most difficult of them all (no points for guessing why):


Overall I'd say I've quite enjoyed this little package -- I was worried at first, until I learned that each character in the selection menu for Sonic 1, 2, and CD is effectively its own save slot, though I've not actually played through a proper save long enough to see if you get the whole new-game-plus level select feature for a given character when you do so a la the mobile ports. I was worried that, based on the 'continue' option in the main menu, that there was only one save slot per game. One save slot per character is something I can live with.


One thing I didn't expect given the way the game was advertised is that neither Sonic & Knuckles nor Sonic 3 on their own are available to play in even legacy mode. I don't think this is a huge loss on its own, as aside from the S&K title screen and a logo at the end, S&K on its own really doesn't actually bring much to the table. You weren't supposed to play S&K on its own, though it was certainly designed so you could.

This means that there's no reason to distinguish this version of Sonic 3 as being "& Knuckles" -- and in fact, the two biggest fan projects that attempt to do a 'complete' Sonic 3 remaster of this sort, Sonic 3 Complete (something of a backport of Sonic & Knuckles collection to Genesis with a few bits here and there that have probably inspired this project) and Sonic 3 AIR (which was developed due to the lack of a RSDK engine remaster of Sonic 3) don't include the "& Knuckles" branding components at all (making the Sonic 3 'Part One' title screen basically indistinguishable from the 'Complete' one in S3C). I like the way the "Sonic 3" looks on the title cards, and think "& Knuckles" clutters it up.

So here then is my current list of grievances for the Sonic 3 remaster in Origins:
- The '& Knuckles' branding is unnecessary -- this is, as far as I'm concerned, Sonic 3, and needs no qualifiers.
- The music is too muffled, and the lead instruments on some of the replaced tracks are too quiet
- There's not much consistency between the S3 and S&K tracks. I don't have a strong opinion on which one they'd have ended up using, I'd just want to be able to either choose one or the other -- and it's not even consistent between anniversary and original modes!
- Flying Battery is much better placed between Ice Cap and Carnival Night, as it serves to provide a slower stage between the other two's focus on madcap speed antics, but it's still using the S&K zone order (like, I get why, I just think the game flows better that way)
- There are still only 8 save slots, so you can't have each ending per character
- Again, because there's no distinction between S3 and S&K here, the fact that the credits only includes the medley from S&K feels like a woeful missed opportunity. Using more of the tracks would have let them fit in the credits for the people who worked on this port -- only Sonic CD includes those credits, and it's a real shame.

EDIT -- nearly forgot this one

- The ring counter in sonic 3 special stages always counts down. Even in classic mode. In anniversary? Lives and continues are fake ideas, so, sure, count those rings down if you want. But in classic mode? A travesty. Game is unredeemable. Nothing good can come of it.

END EDIT

While I realize that the asking price is fairly steep I think it's ok for what you're getting (penny-pinchers will be reminded that, aside from the existence of Sonic 3 AIR, there are also reverse-engineered versions of the mobile ports of Sonic 1, 2, and CD on PC that will work with an extracted RSDK file from the free mobile versions' APKs), especially with the number of extra features not available elsewhere. My nitpicking is mostly just that -- I'm overall quite pleased with this, while the things I'm frustrated at are things I expected to be frustrated by already.
 
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LBD_Nytetrayn

..and his little cat, too
(He/him)
There is so much here that I thought would hurt you when you touched it that doesn't...

As for Sonic & Knuckles, the biggest loss to me -- and I haven't seen how they've done it yet, if at all -- would be the Knuckles cutscene when you start his game.
 

Beta Metroid

At peace
(he/him)
Just curious: Does the electric shield actually protect against electric things, or does it function the same as on Genesis?
 

muteKi

Ell eye ell why, ee ee ell why
There is so much here that I thought would hurt you when you touched it that doesn't...

As for Sonic & Knuckles, the biggest loss to me -- and I haven't seen how they've done it yet, if at all -- would be the Knuckles cutscene when you start his game.

It's there, but somewhat inartfully done -- he still starts out in Mushroom Hill for it, then the game starts in Angel Island Zone. I prefer how AIR and 3 Complete do it so as to lead directly into AIZ by taking place there, but this is imo nitpicky. Much better than its complete removal in ordinary S3K.

Just curious: Does the electric shield actually protect against electric things, or does it function the same as on Genesis?

I haven't tested extensively but it does seem to work on the lightning in Death Egg Zone.
 

Beta Metroid

At peace
(he/him)
Ooh, nice! As I recall in the original, you can touch the electrified surface if you have the shield, but if any actual bolts hit you, they'll destroy the shield. And it's of no help against Carnival Night's "floor-and-ceiling" bots or Robotnik fight.
 

ArugulaZ

Fearful asymmetry
It's always a bummer when you get the fire shield in a stage with water in it, because you know that thing is destined to be doused, leaving you even more naked than Sonic is by default.
 

Beta Metroid

At peace
(he/him)
Yeah. Makes the Fire Shield barely worth going out of your way for in the Sonic 3 half of the game (it's better than nothing, at least). But not an issue at all in the S&K half!
 

muteKi

Ell eye ell why, ee ee ell why
The ones strategically placed at the ends of both acts of Angel Island are damn useful, as is the one by the twin ziplines in Launch Base 2, but there's also not a lot of flame stuff to deal with in the first place.


Unrelated to the Origins discussion, apparently I missed the porting of the WiiU DLC stages to PC Sonic Lost World. Neat!


 

Lokii

Administrator
(He/Him)
Staff member
Moderator
The movement option gives utility past simple elemental protection tho, right? I'm no expert but I imagine there could be some cool stuff you could do with a flame shield in Hyrdoc Ity.
 

muteKi

Ell eye ell why, ee ee ell why
For Sonic, yes, it does allow for the equivalent of a spin dash in the air on a double-jump. It's rarely super-useful but because it doesn't require charging can be one of the better ways to build up speed quickly. Truthfully I think it's the sort of move that's less useful in the stages with water anyway, since they're frequently the ones with more focus on vertical movement.
 

LBD_Nytetrayn

..and his little cat, too
(He/him)
The ones strategically placed at the ends of both acts of Angel Island are damn useful, as is the one by the twin ziplines in Launch Base 2, but there's also not a lot of flame stuff to deal with in the first place.


Unrelated to the Origins discussion, apparently I missed the porting of the WiiU DLC stages to PC Sonic Lost World. Neat!


Oooh, neato! Do you have to go collect rings or points or whatever it was every single time you want to play, though?

If not, I might grab it on Steam just to check those out.
 

muteKi

Ell eye ell why, ee ee ell why
Oooh, neato! Do you have to go collect rings or points or whatever it was every single time you want to play, though?
The mod tool to load this has a way to not tie respawning the bonus stages like these to player score -- I believe the mod page on gamebanana has the little button you should click for that.

Between that and apparently the option to enable multiplayer battles in the mod tool, Lost World PC finally has feature parity with the WiiU version.
 

muteKi

Ell eye ell why, ee ee ell why
I will promise you all that once I start modding this game my first mod will be to disable the teleporter in the hidden palace special stage warp if you've got at least one super emerald to collect.

My second will probably be to port boss Knuckles being able to knock you out of your super form.
 

muteKi

Ell eye ell why, ee ee ell why
Skip to about 7 minutes in if you want to get to the relevant part if the video doesn't do that automatically

 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
This release has issues, but I've apparently put 10+ hours into it and haven't even beaten Sonic CD yet and am having a good time, so... As much fun as it is to dunk on Sega, I still feel like I got my money's worth with Origins
 

Lokii

Administrator
(He/Him)
Staff member
Moderator
I played through story mode and had a grand time, regardless of nitpicks all these games are goats. Then I did a Mania runthrough and holy moly tho that game is on another level. I'm looking forward now to doing K'nuckles runs on them all. This has kinda become the summer of Sonic.

I'm a little frustrated that I don't have any easy access to Adventure right now, I'd love to keep pushing forward into the 3D games.
 

BEAT

LOUDSKULL
(DUDE/BRO)
Basically if you transform right as you enter certain boss arena, you can outrun the camera lock and reach the egg capsule early, hitting it skips the boss and the end level cutscenes.
 
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