The Ultimate Final Fantasy Thread: This Guy Are Knock You All Down

WisteriaHysteria · Apr 23, 2021

Zef said:
I think it's a combination of factors

Oh for sure. But I think another one of those factors is just that FF14 players are just very zealous about their game, despite the overall audience of FF14 being tiny compared to the bigger tent poles of the franchise. Most of the FF14 songs that placed are big raid boss songs that you'll only have ever experienced if you get deep into the game and its expansions.

Zef said:
Ouch at X-2 placing below the monster closets, and at everything that placed below FF11. I can't comment on Crisis Core, but as experimental as all these are, is it really all that better than 12, 13, or X-2?

I think there's a lot of factors at play here too. None of those games were particularly well received by fans compared to other entries in the franchise. Meanwhile, Crisis Core existed in this perfect nexus of timing and events. It's this fundamentally pretty good game, existing as a prequel telling the story a lot of fans wanted (versus the story of X-2 that pretty much nobody wanted) hitting a platform at the peak of its popularity (PSP was actually pretty hot stuff in Japan), it's connected to one of the best/most beloved entries to the franchise, it featured a mega popular pop star at the height of his popularity, and came right during the middle of the whole Complication of FF7 business.

Torzelbaum said:
Dang... Was FFT only able to barely get a song in the top 100?

The top half of the list is pretty respectable, but once you get to the bottom half it becomes fairly brutal. There are some wonderful music in FFT that deserved more attention than this got. Meanwhile, the ear-assault that is the Gold Saucer music from FF7 placed?

Also, the list is pretty wonky too. Like, there's a song from the DS FF3 remake that placed, but the original FF3 is credited, making the whole thing very confusing to parse!

Juno · Apr 23, 2021

The audience for FF14 isn't tiny, over 20 million people have created a service account.

WisteriaHysteria · Apr 23, 2021

That really doesn't mean anything, but I don't want to get into an argument on how popular FF14 is or isn't. I think it's suffice to say that there are a core group of really dedicated fans that make up its active subscribers that are fervent and passionate, and everyone else either bounces off completely/doesn't love it like that/don't even want to get involved with anything MMO.

Mightyblue · Apr 23, 2021

You realize that same argument also applies to the single-player entries as well, right?

Gaer · Apr 23, 2021

Mightyblue said:
You realize that same argument also applies to the single-player entries as well, right?

It isn't even like FFXIV isn't the only FF title to be a JRPG with multiplayer.

And I'm not talking about XI.

Juno · Apr 23, 2021

WisteriaHysteria said:
I think it's suffice to say that there are a core group of really dedicated fans that make up its active subscribers that are fervent and passionate, and everyone else either bounces off completely/doesn't love it like that/don't even want to get involved with anything MMO.

This doesn't really mean anything either.

Like, this describes many, many games. Hell, most people don't even finish the games they buy. Lots people bouncing off something popular is very common!

Is it really too much to ask you to explain why you think XIV has a tiny fanbase compared to other FF games?

WisteriaHysteria · Apr 23, 2021

Juno said:
Is it really too much to ask you to explain why you think XIV has a tiny fanbase compared to other FF games?

This is just supposition, but I think the format of the game has a lot to do with it. You can have someone dabble in a single player FF, not be the biggest fans of it, but still enjoy the experience, and walk away having beat the game with only a 60 hour investment of their time. There's really no beating FF14 though, and if you've made it through to the latest patch's content, you're probably a pretty hardcore player. Maybe characterizing the fanbase as 'tiny' wasn't the right descriptor, because I do think the self-identifying hardcore FF14 fans are probably bigger than say, the subset of hardcore FFX fans. Just the nature of the product keeps fans engaged with it versus being something that you play once and then maybe play again a few times down the road. But I think certain blockbusters in the franchise like X, or 7, have vastly more casual fans who like the games and remember them very fondly, but aren't so hooked on them that they'll rationalize monthly recursive payments for years on end. FF7 and FFX were games that everybody played, even normies who never play RPGs or even videogames on the regular. Anecdotally most of the people I went to school with played both. Not just friends, but people from all walks of life. But I don't know a single person IRL who spent a single minute in Eorzea beyond my little brother. It's a game that just doesn't lend itself to the same kind of zeitgeist, nor could you initially just lend a friend your copy and they can experience the whole thing, at some point a credit card needs to come out.

And we also just have a lot more concrete info on how well each game does with regards to sales versus FF14. Ever notice how Square-Enix goes out of its way to avoid telling the public how many active subscribers they really have? And "this many people have made accounts" is far more meaningless when anyone is welcome to make as many free trial accounts as they like to give the game a shot versus a standard single player entry that requires some kind of investment to play.

Gaer · Apr 23, 2021

WisteriaHysteria said:
This is just supposition, but I think the format of the game has a lot to do with it. You can have someone dabble in a single player FF, not be the biggest fans of it, but still enjoy the experience, and walk away having beat the game with only a 60 hour investment of their time. There's really no beating FF14 though, and if you've made it through to the latest patch's content, you're probably a pretty hardcore player.

This is grossly incorrect. You can “complete” FFXIV, it’s called the Main Story Quest. The vast majority of players only do the MSQ and come back every three months for new story.

The fact that people can grind things out does not mean you have to do so. To the point that complete gear resets happen every even patch (with the new savage raid tier) so people can get crafted gear and just do what they want when they want.

Every expansion story is, while building on the previous, always complete by the X.3 patch MSQ.

What you are suggesting is that an ongoing serial, whether comic, manga, television show, movie series cannot be “completed” either. Or do you consider FFX etc. “uncompleted” because someone didn’t dodge those lightning bolts?

WisteriaHysteria said:
Maybe characterizing the fanbase as 'tiny' wasn't the right descriptor, because I do think the self-identifying hardcore FF14 fans are probably bigger than say, the subset of hardcore FFX fans. Just the nature of the product keeps fans engaged with it versus being something that you play once and then maybe play again a few times down the road. But I think certain blockbusters in the franchise like X, or 7, have vastly more casual fans who like the games and remember them very fondly, but aren't so hooked on them that they'll rationalize monthly recursive payments for years on end.

Meanwhile FFVII remake is charging people 70$ a pop per disc. But who is counting here.

WisteriaHysteria said:
FF7 and FFX were games that everybody played, even normies who never play RPGs or even videogames on the regular. Anecdotally most of the people I went to school with played both. Not just friends, but people from all walks of life. But I don't know a single person IRL who spent a single minute in Eorzea beyond my little brother. It's a game that just doesn't lend itself to the same kind of zeitgeist, nor could you initially just lend a friend your copy and they can experience the whole thing, at some point a credit card needs to come out.[/size]

I didn’t play FFX for a long time. I hated FFVII. I haven’t even touched FFXV. Does that mean they don’t have mass appeal too?

WisteriaHysteria said:
Maybe characterizing the fanbase as 'tiny' wasn't the right descriptor, because I do think the self-identifying hardcore FF14 fans are probably bigger than say, the subset of hardcore FFX fans. Just the nature of the product keeps fans engaged with it versus being something that you play once and then maybe play again a few times down the road. But I think certain blockbusters in the franchise like X, or 7, have vastly more casual fans who like the games and remember them very fondly, but aren't so hooked on them that they'll rationalize monthly recursive payments for years on end. FF7 and FFX were games that everybody played, even normies who never play RPGs or even videogames on the regular. Anecdotally most of the people I went to school with played both. Not just friends, but people from all walks of life. But I don't know a single person IRL who spent a single minute in Eorzea beyond my little brother. It's a game that just doesn't lend itself to the same kind of zeitgeist, nor could you initially just lend a friend your copy and they can experience the whole thing, at some point a credit card needs to come out.

But DLC, or patch updates to FFXV to make the game actually playable and have a somewhat cohesive story, or the aforementioned monetisiation FFVII remake is going about doesn’t need a “credit card to come out?”

WisteriaHysteria said:
And we also just have a lot more concrete info on how well each game does with regards to sales versus FF14. Ever notice how Square-Enix goes out of its way to avoid telling the public how many active subscribers they really have? And "this many people have made accounts" is far more meaningless when anyone is welcome to make as many free trial accounts as they like to give the game a shot versus a standard single player entry that requires some kind of investment to play.

The game has over one million continuous subscribers. Those numbers wax and wane over patch cycles as people take a break or come back, which was what Yoship wanted in the first place.

The 12.99USD sub is less than 44 cents a day and provides more content and story than many “all season passes”.

In addition, as everyone knows thanks to the meme, there are two complete storylines that can be played for free via the Free Trial. Each expansion is a 60-70 hour JRPG.

You’re being quite hyperbolic and your assertions are factually incorrect. I don’t know what you’re trying to prove here.

Juno · Apr 23, 2021

I understand you not caring about SE's numbers for this, that is fair, but I do not understand why you think your anecdotal evidence is somehow compelling here. I do not find there to be anything convincing that you don't know people who play XIV.

In addition, I think the following statement demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how many players engage with the game:

and if you've made it through to the latest patch's content, you're probably a pretty hardcore player.

This assumption is bunk because simply staying up to date with the latest content isn't really that difficult unless you've only recently started the game. Plenty of players re-sub whenever a new patch/expansion comes out, play casually for a month, then let their sub expire and don't come back until a few months later when the next patch is out. I'm not going to speculate on exact numbers or percentages here, but there are definitely more people who are closer to that mold than the people that have have a subscription active 12 months a year, spend several hours a week working on high end raid content with their static, and run the same dungeon over and over again hoping to get to get that outdated piece of gear for their glamour. There is a large gap between these two extremes, with many, many people on various points of this continuum. It is off the mark to describe all of them as "hardcore".

Peklo · Apr 23, 2021

I don't think there's any way to view XIV as anything other than among the most popular and successful (however you define it) games in its genre, especially ongoing ones. I'd assume only World of Warcraft eclipses it. And yes, because hard data is vague or unavailable, I won't make conjecture about the specifics, and just rely on impressions built up over years. The general rhetoric around the game I think is kind of exceptional on its series basis, as practically every FF is contentious in some way, and XIV after its rebirth many years ago has only enjoyed a reputation of growing bolder and better over time in the common perception. Criticisms exist and are needed, but they don't define the game in people's eyes. I think that level of universal recognition and a beyond passionate userbase make some series "traditionalists" or those with no interest or way to commit to an MMO kind of reactionary and skeptical about the game and its merits, on some level--which in turn makes its players defensive for being regularly dismissed in that manner, so even in light of XIV's mass popularity these nerd schisms are borne out in its wake, and the inherently divisive qualities of every series entry are preserved.

WisteriaHysteria · Apr 23, 2021

Gaer said:
You’re being quite hyperbolic and your assertions are factually incorrect. I don’t know what you’re trying to prove here.

You make some good points that I hadn't fully considered, but most of what you're saying is value statements that are just as flimsy as what I'm saying. Which, if your point is to demonstrate my flimsy arguments, I get that. But I opened up by saying from the get go that what I was describing was a 'supposition' though, so it's a rather redundant argument to make IMO.

I'm not really trying to prove anything either. I literally started out by saying I didn't want to get into an argument about FF14's popularity because I knew this is where it would lead, but I was asked to explain my perspective so here I am. I'm not here to bash FF14 or call into question any of its merits, just explain my perception that it isn't as popular as some of the other games in the franchise. For the record, I could give a damn about most things popularity, especially when I personally find that often broad popularity shares an inverse correlation with something's quality and value. I just find popularity polls as a curiosity worth some amusement reflecting on the causes for why they have certain results.

Juno said:
I do not understand why you think your anecdotal evidence is somehow compelling here.

I don't? I mean, I called it anecdotal evidence for a reason. Nobody who knows what that word means would use it to describe anything compelling or resembling a rational argument.

Juno said:
This assumption is bunk because simply staying up to date with the latest content isn't really that difficult unless you've only recently started the game.

Honest question here, genuinely curious. How long would you guestimate a fresh account, starting from scratch would take to catch up? Assuming they were mainlining the core story, had some wiggle room for learning the game mechanics, and weren't just skipping through cutscenes either trying to honestly engage with the story.

I assume it's not an impossible number, but I highly doubt it's also an inconsequential amount of time either. Serialized media are great if it's a thing you're into, but the longer they go on the more impenetrable they become. MMOs can do some tricks to help accelerate and acclimate new players, but there's only so much they can do before undermining the story they're trying to tell, and also undermine their whole business model which is to keep players as occupied as possible to keep recursive payments going as long as possible.

Gaer · Apr 23, 2021

FFXIV is meant to be played by going through the story. The endgame doesn’t matter cos it will always be there.

And yeah, as I said, each expansion is 60 hours or so of story. The way that FFXIV eases things is by ensuring a player doesn’t have to grind levels or gear to continue the story, by providing lots of both. A new player isn’t going to get stuck needing to level grind to see the next part of the story.

WisteriaHysteria said:
but there's only so much they can do before undermining the story they're trying to tell, and also undermine their whole business model which is to keep players as occupied as possible to keep recursive payments going as long as possible.

How is this not clear:

“Hey YoshiP, I love FFXIV, but it's hard to keep playing your game (because of the lack of content) and now I'm taking a break here. Sorry for asking this but is there a way or a reason to keep playing? or anything that can you teach me how to keep my motivation for playing your game?” - A player asking Yoshida during Gamescom

Yoship: “It's alright not to play it everyday. Since it's just a game, you can stop forcing yourself if it's hard on you to keep that up. Rather, it'll just pile up unnecessary stress if you limit yourself into playing just that one game since there are so many other games out there. So, do come back and play it to your heart's content when the major patch kicks in, then stop it to play other games before you got burnt out, and then come back for another major patch. This will actually make me happier, and in the end, I think this is the best solution I can answer for keeping your motivation up for the game.”

Sure, S-E wants that sweet sub money.

But FFXIV is specifically designed to respect a player’s time.

The devs want people to come back and play cos there are things the player wants to do, rather than using FOMO to keep subscriptions going.

Every expansion’s story has been rated higher than the one before. There is no “taking away from the story they want to tell” for the sake of the sub fee. It’s been the exact opposite of that.

Major (aka Main Story Quest) patches come out like clockwork every three months. They’ve only had two delays since the game relaunched in 2013: one month delay after the release of Heavensward (their first expansion) and a two and a half month delay in 2020 due to COVID-19 and needing to set up Work From Home.

I am attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you don’t seem to actually know what FFXIV is like.

Its success stems from the fact that it diverges dramatically from other MMOs in terms of accessibility or “subscription retention”. They still want your money of course. But so does everyone.

YangusKhan · Apr 23, 2021

The only reason FFXIV could be considered unpopular is because it's an MMO which will naturally repel a percentage of players due to a handful of barriers inherent to the genre. And even then they're trying pretty damn hard with the free trial. If it was a traditional single player experience that retained mostly the same story, series fans would love the shit out of it.

Zef · Apr 23, 2021

WisteriaHysteria said:
Honest question here, genuinely curious. How long would you guestimate a fresh account, starting from scratch would take to catch up? Assuming they were mainlining the core story, had some wiggle room for learning the game mechanics, and weren't just skipping through cutscenes either trying to honestly engage with the story.

After years and years of looking up videos of FF Fanservice in XIV, and having many, many Tyrants doing their best to convince me to play the critically acclaimed MMORPG FFXIV that has a free trial up to Lv 60 and includes the Heavensward expansion, I was FINALLY convinced to start playing by the latest expansion trailer. I bought the Complete Edition, created my character around Feb 8, but actually started playing on the 28th. By March 27th, playing an average of 2 hours a day (allowing days I didn't touch it vs weekends), and doing almost every single sidequest around despite the Tyrant guild suggesting that I focus on the main scenario, I had completed the 2.0 main scenario and seen the ending credits.

I've since spent a LOT of time just...eating it up. I'm not even done with the 2.5 patch yet, I'm having so much fun doing everything available to me (multiple times, even!) and I've taken on three other jobs that I'm happy to explore and learn the intricacies of. I'm more than ready to call it one of my favorite FFs, as the experience has been captivating and far beyond the majority of installments in the series, and that's just from a single-player, single-player content, and single-player main scenario perspective. I had scoffed at the MMO component for a long time (as many people can attest) because I thought I'd have to schedule my time with other people's in order to get things done, but that's the farthest thing from the truth. Even if the wonderful Tyrant guild weren't available to help out at a moment's notice (which they are) I can just pick up, see what multiplayer content I want to do, and within minutes I'll have a randomly-assigned party, who will likely look at my "n00b hat" and either explain what to do, or literally carry me through the finish line. That's the kind of thing that makes me glad to do multiplayer bits multiple times, start helping other newbies myself, put more importantly, not be afraid anymore of things like, "Oh no I need to schedule so the TT guild can help me, oh no I'm taking time away from them when they'd probably prefer to do the latest patch, oh no I need to watch a guide first so people don't yell at me, oh no what if I'm not doing it right."

At the rate I'm going (that is, trying to do everything on each new map), I don't think I'll catch up for Endwalker when it drops in Fall, but I don't think I'll be too far behind. Considering I played Ghost of Tsushima* nonstop from July to February, and that FFXIV has several times more content, I'm pretty happy with the bang I'm getting for my FFXIV subscription bucks.

(Coincidentally, playing FFXIV has made me less anxious/apprehensive about finally trying out GoT's MMO expansion, which other GoT fans have been foaming at the mouth over since October. So, I got even more value out of XIV than I expected.)

YangusKhan said:
The only reason FFXIV could be considered unpopular is because it's an MMO which will naturally repel a percentage of players due to a handful of barriers inherent to the genre. And even then they're trying pretty damn hard with the free trial. If it was a traditional single player experience that retained mostly the same story, series fans would love the shit out of it.

Yup. The main plot of FF14 puts the politics of 12 and the character depth of X and XV to shame. Even this early on, there's characters my Warrior of Light would gladly lay down her life for, and knowing that I'll meet even more is driving me on even harder than the promise of cool FF bosses and references.

Kazin · Apr 23, 2021

Zef said:
and doing almost every single sidequest around despite the Tyrant guild suggesting that I focus on the main scenario

Zef, no

All I have to add to this discussion besides the above horror at Zef doing all the sidequests is that I haven't played the game in well over a year at this point, but I was able to buy the Shadowbringers expansion and mainline it during a 14 day free trial for returning players, all without having to give SE another subscription fee. I plan on probably doing something similar after the new expac comes out, though I'm quite a bit behind so it may take two free trial periods, maybe a one month sub fee if I'm feeling it lol. All of which is to say that FFXIV is very friendly with your time, and you can absolutely get by without being permanently subbed to it.

Zef · Apr 23, 2021

Kazin said:
Zef, no

Look those people need someone to deliver their veggies from one end of the Shroud to the other, and if the Warrior of Light can spend her time battling ancient Allagan constructs that can cause unintended devastation, she can take a few minutes to help the little guy too.

Even if the little guy is a potato.

aturtledoesbite · Apr 23, 2021

Zef said:
Even if the little guy is a potato.

Kazin · Apr 23, 2021

mods: can you ban all lalas, thanks

TyrMcDohl · Apr 23, 2021

Ngl kazin, that video is incredible

Kazin · Apr 23, 2021

I'll never know because I refuse to click on it

4-So · Apr 23, 2021

People don't like Lalas. Also don't like gnomes in WoW.

Support your small folk.

Zef · Apr 23, 2021

I've probably watched that video ten times and "Baby's first... burial service" and "Space candy is pleased" always crack me up.

Gaer · Apr 23, 2021

Zef said:
Yup. The main plot of FF14 puts the politics of 12 and the character depth of X and XV to shame. Even this early on, there's characters my Warrior of Light would gladly lay down her life for, and knowing that I'll meet even more is driving me on even harder than the promise of cool FF bosses and references.

Man, if you love ARR this much, you’re going to explode with Heavensward and onward. I also adore ARR’s storyline — and it is really good! — but in retrospect I’d rate it a 7/10, whereas Heavensward and Stormblood are 9/10s and Shadowbringers is 10/10.

Kirin · Apr 23, 2021

See, first it was intimidating because it was an MMO, now it's intimidating because even if it's turned out to be an MMO that studiously respects your time, at this point it's like five entire games or something.

(I totally believe it's great, I just haven't even made time for a single JRPG since XV was brand new.)

Mightyblue · Apr 23, 2021

There's nothing wrong with just starting up the free trial version and gradually playing it at your own pace if you're interested. There's no risk of the game going away anytime soon.

Zef · Apr 23, 2021

Kirin said:
an MMO that studiously respects your time,

It respects your time so much, that Main Scenario Quests and most sidequests are actually split up into tiny chunks you can blaze through in a minute or two, which allows you to start up a Quest Roulette or a Party Finder, then go on with your solo adventure while that's happening in the background, and when your ticket comes up you can just stop your current quest right then and there, do your MMO bit, and come back to pick up right where you left it. By the same mechanics, you could be in the middle of a major MSQ with multiple checkpoints, and then you decide to turn in for the night or go out for a walk or play something else, and you can continue exactly where you were.

(There are exceptions, natch, it IS an RPG and it will have long cutscenes, but 99.9% of them can be skipped, and there's a free journal where you can review any cutscene in the game.)

Imagine if FF6 let you go to the Opera house, then, right before you have to fight rats in the rafters, your friend calls and wants to meet up. But instead of having to leave the console on, or turn it off and restart the whole sequence from the last savepoint, you could just stop at your current checkpoint, leave, and come back later. You could even come back to the game and go get Rages or something instead of resuming the sequence, if that's how you want to tackle it. FF14 doesn't just respect your time, it holds it in the highest regard, and you control the pace at which you want to experience the solo narrative. Want to go fishing or crafting for ten hours while your NPC allies are all fighting the enemy army in the middle of a scenario quest? The game says, hey, we have a narrative going here, but sure, you can do whatever you want, it's your game and your time and your choice.

Kazin · Apr 23, 2021

Mightyblue said:
There's nothing wrong with just starting up the free trial version and gradually playing it at your own pace if you're interested. There's no risk of the game going away anytime soon.

And I don't know if you've heard, Kirin, but the award winning expansion Heavensward is included in the Free Trial, and you can play up to level 60

Mightyblue · Apr 23, 2021

look, i was trying to avoid the memes and be sincere, but nooooooooo

your penance is to listen to a 24 hour loop of papaya kazin

Gaer · Apr 23, 2021

Mightyblue said:
look, i was trying to avoid the memes and be sincere, but nooooooooo

your penance is to listen to a 24 hour loop of papaya kazin

And watch the Mad Because Small video.

Kazin · Apr 23, 2021

Okay it must be said - FFXIV has an incredible soundtrack, it is almost 100% good - but Papaya might be the worst song in any videogame that I've ever heard. I would actually rather watch whatever those stupid lalas are doing in that video than listen to one second of that garbage.

The Ultimate Final Fantasy Thread: This Guy Are Knock You All Down

The DRKest Roe

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