To Infinity and Beyond: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Sprite]

Meanwhile I’m just constantly delighted that in the middle of this master class in animation that’s single-handedly moving the medium forward is a billboard that reads, “SODA: It’s a Generic Brand.” I am so here for movies which are both stunningly beautiful and intensely goofy.

 

[Dark Medusa]

Yeah, I understand the people who were caught off guard and don't like that it didn't really "resolve" at the end of the movie, and I'd be lying if I felt like where they left off felt like a perfect place, but I didn't really mind it. It just made me more excited that there was more to see and resolve, and I trust the filmmakers to at least make that resolution a lot of fun, if not engaging.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Yeah, I knew that the movie was filmed as a part one with Beyond intended to be the conclusion but even then the place it ended didn't feel satisfying to me.

And I'm a fan that's fairly caught up on this stuff, there were some disappointed kids and confused parents in the audience when the movie stopped where it did. Even The Empire Strikes Back had a big final 'looking out at space' scene with the protagonists in a moment of respite despite the otherwise shocking cliffhanger.

 

[gogglebob]

I feel like there's a difference between a "movie cliffhanger" and "commercial break cliffhanger". This definitely felt like the latter.

Other than that, though, this was an amazing movie that is easily my favorite of the year so far. I may or may not write a stupidly long essay comparing this to that Spider-Man movie from last year...

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

And, while talking about it is interesting, no logical argument will change how I feel about this, that's just not how it works.

I get where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong either. Just coming from my POV though, I spent a lot of time not getting the most out of the media I consumed because I was too busy either letting an emotional reaction to betrayed expectations subsume my thought process without ever really sitting down and thinking critically if that was fair expectations to have to begin with. (See: back when I thought DS9 wasn't real Star Trek because it didn't do all these things I thought Star Trek must do.)

Different people watch movies for different reasons, so if you want something discrete and stand alone from a movie, I get it and that's fair. But getting a feeling of betrayal that a film - that is already a sequel/continuation of a highly successful film - is left open ended with another intended sequel, then maybe those expectations weren't totally fair to begin with. Also the way I see things as well, the Spider-verse movies are very intentionally films that - in both theme and form, are about questioning the status quo, and challenging preconceptions/expectations. Cartoon movies aren't supposed to look like this. Spider-Man isn't supposed to be brown. Miles shouldn't have ever been Spider-Man to begin with. Etc, etc. Tweaking the narrative structure of what a movie "should be" is wholly in line with the rest of the movies' M.O.

Even The Empire Strikes Back had a big final 'looking out at space' scene with the protagonists in a moment of respite despite the otherwise shocking cliffhanger.

Spoiler

Spiderverse 2 literally ends in the same kind of way, where Gwen puts together a team of rogues that strike hero poses and look bravely to the future, about to set off to go rescue Miles. (Who ends the film distressed/captured just like Han Solo.) Like, the parallels between the two films cannot be a coincidence. Empire Strikes Back is the industry blueprint for how to structure the middle part of a three part story, I guarantee the makers of this film looked to it for inspiration at the very least:

The problem from the last film is back and worse than ever. The main characters are split up and on separate paths. There is a feeling of betrayal where a mentor character - stuck rigidly in their own preconceptions of how the world should work - advises the main character to not intervene and protect their loved ones. The main characters experience huge setbacks that leave them on their heels with a bleak outlook. One of the main characters ends up captured. The ghosts of the main character's past comes back to haunt them, and they're confronted with a reflection of the darkness within them and what an evil version of them would look like. There's a romance subplot, but the two are pulled apart by unfortunate circumstance. I can guarantee that the makers of this movie were like, these cannot just be pure coincidence.
So it's just strange to me that people could love when one movie does all these things and ends on a cliffhanger on top of a mountain of unresolved plot threads, versus another film trying its best to copy the exact form of that first movie, but now this isn't how movies should be. Like, the literal only difference I can see is that most of us were either children in our formative years, unburdened by expectations, or not even alive yet when Empire Strikes Back came out. And we've only ever known of the Star Wars films as a complete, discrete thing. Unburdened by expectations, or anxiety over whether or not it will end well/come to a satisfying conclusion.

 

[Adrenaline]

I agree that Empire Strikes Back is a great movie, but I would also say it has the least satisfying ending of the three movies in the original trilogy. A good movie can have a questionable ending, and if the next movie pays off the cliffhanger, it can soften any hard feelings towards that cliffhanger. That could happen here. My opinion of AtSV might improve based on how BtSV turns out, but for now I see a movie I like a lot that has pacing problems and feels like an unfinished thought.

 

[Paul le Fou]

One way of looking at it that helped me come to terms with this movie is to look at it as Gwen's Movie. The movie starts, largely comprises of, and ends on her whole struggle of finding a band to join/finding friends, joining a band and discovering she doesn't fit after all, but finding friends and making her own band. It covers her whole emotional arc including her conflict and resolution with her father, and comes to an end on a triumphant note. Meanwhile, Miles has the B-plot through this movie, and half of his story is the same as or intertwined with Gwen's anyway—finding friends and like company, plus his feelings for her. He does have an arc about telling how his story is supposed to go, but it's not a complete arc; we even see this mirrored with Gwen's in his stifled coming-out scene, followed immediately by a twisted reflection of "his story." Now, I think the movie does as well as it can to try and divert the attention toward Gwen, but still puts too much emphasis on Miles (plus the whole expectation of Miles-as-main-protagonist coming from the first movie) and that's why it still feels unsatisfying. I don't know how I would or they could have changed the movie to fix this, but it's where I stand on it right now.

The other reason is just how abrupt the ending feels. It's not a bad cliffhanger point, but there's a lot of momentum that cuts right off without much denouement. To go back to the Empire Strikes Back comparison, what AtSV does would be like ending that movie right on "I am your father" "NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" Lando and Leia on their way in the Falcon, cut straight to credits. ESB gives the low point room to resolve and breathe. Crucially, it gets Luke (main protagonist) out of his low point and into a stable place where he can start climbing his way back up, by letting him escape and start to recover; meanwhile, Han (secondary character) is the one still in distress.

As a thought experiment, imagine what AtSV would feel like if Gwen were captured and Miles were the one recovering from his low point but on his way to save her. I bet you audiences would be less upset about it because of expectations of who the protagonist and side characters are. (There's a can of worms here about gender expectations too, but I think the same might hold true if the roles were similarly switched in ESB.)

 

[Sprite]

I think framing it as Gwen’s movie would work, except that she’s withholding information from the audience for most of the movie, which cements Miles as the viewpoint character for the lion’s share of screentime. She definitely has a complete arc, though, which is a good way to look at it. Miles basically just finished singing “Let It Go” and is now closed off in his metaphorical ice palace.

(I don’t mind the cliffhanger)

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

The other reason is just how abrupt the ending feels. It's not a bad cliffhanger point, but there's a lot of momentum that cuts right off without much denouement. To go back to the Empire Strikes Back comparison, what AtSV does would be like ending that movie right on "I am your father" "NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" Lando and Leia on their way in the Falcon, cut straight to credits.

See, I think the issue here is again, a misidentification of the climax. The climax of Spiderverse2 is when Miles escapes the Spider-Society. At which point, there is still like 15 minutes of movie after that, showing the falling action and consequences. Which is waaayyyyyyyy more time than Empire Strikes Back lent for falling action/epilogue. It seems like y'all think the climax is where Miles confronts the version of himself from Earth-42 which, if that whole segment had been pulled out of the movie and instead inserted in the middle of the credits or post-credits, y'all would have no problem. Because that is more a teaser of/setup for what's next rather than any form of resolution of the plot of this film. A standard Disney/Marvel film would have done so, but I'm glad this one didn't and dispensed with any mid/post-credit scenes because if we're going to criticize films about pacing, that's something I can get behind. And I will never get mad at a film for having too much falling action/epilogue because modern cinema is more likely to just stop abruptly at the climax and have little-to-none of the stuff that's supposed to come afterwards.

One way of looking at it that helped me come to terms with this movie is to look at it as Gwen's Movie.

I don't see it as one or the other. It's clearly a film about both of them at the same time, and comparing/contrasting their different yet similar experiences. They connect with one another because "they're the same" and this film goes the extra mile to actually portray that rather than the first film where Gwen was a supporting character with whom we just had to take their word for it because they spent little-to-no time actually developing her. This dynamic I thought worked exquisitely because 1) Gwen is a great character and deserves this amount of screen time and contemplation, 2) splitting the perspective up is a good way of justifying the length of the film because it's always doing something meaningful with one of the two characters rather than artificially padding the story out. And 3) each characters story helps to inform not just their own characters, but supports the central comparison/contrast between the two leads.

The last point of which, really makes everything in the film click thematically. It works really well and is quite frankly inspired. Because Gwen isn't just elevated to the role of a co-star in order to check off diversity boxes, but her story has impact and meaning that reinforces and strengthens the film's central conceites and complements the film's other main character. Getting to see Gwen's struggles with her father first hand, makes her a sympathetic figure and lends credibility to her assertion that Miles' impulses are wrong. And seeing her reconcile with him gives us as the audience proof that Miles is actually correct beyond just because he's the main character and things magically work out for him. When Miles pushes her away in this film, the pain of that hits the audience harder because not only do we see Miles's perspective, but we know Gwen's as well and why/how she would be hurt from all of this too.

And to me, this all goes back to the core nature of the films regarding breaking boundaries in cinema, and defying the "usual" way movies unfold. I think on occasion you might see some ensemble films or romcoms engage this sort of spotlight sharing, but it's almost never executed this well. Especially in the superhero genre. You only need to look at Marvel's own films like "Captain America: Civil War" where the title-character plays second fiddle the entire time in what is ostensibly his own movie. Even ensemble films like the X-Men movies or the Avengers films, tend to hover and emphasize the perspective of one central character at the expense of its costars. Spiderverse2 does the best job to date that I can remember, of actually crafting a narrative around two relatively equal characters and making it feel like neither is being lessened at the expense of the other.

 

[Vaeran]

I bet you forgot the first episode of Secret Invasion was today! I didn't! It was pretty good!

Spoiler: OR AM I ONLY SAYING THAT BECAUSE I'M A SKRULL

I've said this before but I love "anyone could be an enemy agent" plots, so I am all in on the premise. "The Skrulls are actually a bunch of nice goofballs" was a clever twist in Captain Marvel but it also meant I didn't get the paranoia that I wanted out of that movie. Now here it is, in a format that it's probably better suited for. And I'm extra glad that Nick Fury finally gets some focus after more or less existing in the margins of the present-day MCU since The Winter Soldier. Whatcha been up to, Fury?

I called Ross being a Skrull in the opening very early on because I am an ultra clever lad, but there's a lot I didn't see coming, like Hill's death. Damn.

The casting in this is great; I'll watch Olivia Colman in anything and hope we see a lot more of her in this series. I'm enjoying Ben Mendo's performance, and look forward to more meaty scenes with him and Emilia Clarke. "I haven't even had my mid-life crisis shopping spree yet. What'd you get for yours?" "The Avengers." Hah!

I think it'd be fun if the Skrull plot isn't completely resolved at the end of SI. Maybe we stop Gravik's rebellion, but the last scene is Fury being handed a list of remaining known Skrull agents on Earth and going "...Oh shit."

 

[Torzelbaum]

 

[Octopus Prime]

Not gonna lie; that looks like a fun movie

 

[Johnny Unusual]

Why Batman 89 font?

 

[Octopus Prime]

It never goes out of style

 

[BEAT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1671500685433602050

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1671501933490651136

 

[BEAT]

Marvel Studios is not some dweeb making a surrealistic lyric video for a system of a down song.

They are the crown jewel of the largest, richest entertainment conglomerate on the planet.

THEY DON'T GET TO DO THAT SHIT.

 

[Torzelbaum]

Why Batman 89 font?

It never goes out of style

Batman 89 is like an ancestor of all modern comic book superhero movies. Can it be called their progenitor? I don't know...

 

[Daikaiju]

Batman 89 is like an ancestor of all modern comic book superhero movies. Can it be called their progenitor? I don't know...

Not Superman?

 

[Torzelbaum]

Yeah, the Superman movies were definitely part of the birth or genesis of the genre but I feel like 89 and its sequels matches a lot more with modern cape movies than Superman 78 does. But I'm not sure where to put the 80s Superman sequels in this evolutionary/family tree.

 

[Johnny Unusual]

Batman 89 is like an ancestor of all modern comic book superhero movies. Can it be called their progenitor? I don't know...

And if any character justifies it, it's a b-level baddie who only had one series of his own about his son going to Hollywood.

 

[Lakupo]

Turned Secret Invasion on last night out of curiosity (and quit after 15 minutes because we just didn't care that much)

Me: "I get the concept they were going for with the intro, and it's not like there's no effort here to tie it together, but it turned out kind of... mid."
My husband: "Mid... journey?"

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Imagine a show about Charlie’s Angels. But there’s no angels. It’s just Charlie. And he’s old. And the entire time everyone tells him nonstop he’s too old to be doing stuff. But he does stuff anyways and he’s bad at it and it’s boring. And that’s Secret Invasion so far.

 

[BEAT]

It's kind of a shame because the idea of an entire show that's just Sam the man doing Jason Bourne shit seemed like an obvious slam dunk.

But also lol. LMAO.

 

[Vaeran]

I guess I like boring stuff! Secret Invasion's alright by me so far.

Spoiler

The centerpiece of the episode for me was the one-on-one between Rhodey and Fury in the tavern, even though for a man who has personally fought aliens on multiple occasions, Rhodey sure seems quick to dismiss Fury's claims that an invasion is underway. You'd think he'd have earned a bit of credibility, or at least the benefit of the doubt. Still, great scene.

Olivia Colman is scary and I love it. More please!

Don't Skrulls revert to their true form when they die? Brogan's finger certainly did once it was detached. Seems kind of risky to dump a Skrull body in the woods when you're part of a... secret invasion.

I guess the Skrulls must have operatives in Wakanda, as I'm not sure how else they would have acquired pieces of Groot. (Presumably his discarded vines did not dust along with the rest of him when Thanos snapped.)

For a hot second I thought Fury's wife at the end was Soren and I was like OH SHIT but no, she's just some Skrullgirl. I'm sorry, they all look alike to me!!!

 

[Vaeran]

Secret Invasion isn't quite what I'd hoped for but it's still keeping my interest.

Spoiler

That said, I'd trade it all in a heartbeat for six episodes of just Olivia Colman being an ice cold murderess with a sunny, affable smile.

I lol'd at Fury half-heartedly pistol whipping Rhodey in the hospital out of frustration. Bonk.

I was hoping that Ben Mendo wasn't really dead because he's probably the second best part of this series next to Colman. Oh well.

It feels like an editing mistake that they had one of Gravik's henchmen go HEY WE HAVEN'T FOUND THAT SECRET CACHE OF AVENGERS DNA YET up top, and then tried to get us involved in the mystery of what "The Harvest" is. Oh, oh! I bet I know!

I really hope when they rescue the real Rhodey it turns out to be Terrance Howard. Fury just looks back and forth at the two of them and Cheadle-Rhodey's like "What? I improvised a little."

 

[Adrenaline]

I don't really love the story the show is telling but I'm enjoying the different scenes of good actors doing spy thriller stuff.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Yeah same. Though wow Gravik is kind of all over the place as a villain, isn't he? For the supposed mastermind of a world-conquering scheme he's kind of an unstable putz. Sure dude, straight up murder that one guy for the slightest bit of pushback on your plan in front of your entire crew then be shocked when they finally turn on you. Are they seriously setting it up to be a big surprise when all of his forces inevitably turn on him in the finale next week? Because I can see it coming a mile away.

Overall the show is kind of a mess but it's had just enough entertaining performances (Coleman) to keep my interest.

Also, has no one commented on how bad a look it is that this is a show all about refugees from a war secretly trying to infiltrate and conquer their new home? Because that's a decision.

 

[BEAT]

I don't want to be EXCESSIVELY MEAN about Secret Invasion, but I kinda expected more... everything.

This was a "spy thriller" where at no point did I find myself going "oh shit he's gonna do it. oh shit he's gonna do it... maybe he's not gonna do it OH FUCK HE DID IT." In my mind that's the single most important part of anything calling itself a "thriller."

The ending was a CGI overdose, but it was a weirdly muted one? I dunno, like, if you're gonna give both your guys EVERY POWER EVER I feel the resulting sequence of two motherfuckers absolutely destroying each other should have a little more oomph? Like, if you're just abandoning the whole cold war thriller THING for two Gokus beating eachother to death, shouldnt' the goalpost for excitement be set at that time two Gokus beat eachother to death.

Sam the Man is the man as always, and I loved that one English lady who was like "Oh actually I do have a skrull detector IT'S A GUN" was a blast but on the whole the show left me cold.

 

[Johnny Unusual]

I'm on four and I feel like the actors are very good but muted is definitely the way to describe the whole thing. It feels like the show has good smaller moments but all the big stuff is less interesting to me. In theory, I don't mind a more down to Earth approach in the same way Deep Space Nine could drop high concept stuff in favour of tense thrillers that just happen to be in space but sadly Secret Invasion (as of four) feels more like it spent all it's money on Sam Jackson and then realized it doesn't have anything fun to do with him that isn't a well-timed quip or acting choice on his part.

But yeah, it depressingly low on actual intrigue. I feel like one idea is... implicit and maybe it will be dealt with in the last two episodes but as it stands the story just isn't that interesting.

 

[Vaeran]

Pretty weak finale. This series could have been so, so good, but it just turned out middling.

Spoiler

The G'iah vs. Gravik fight was very silly, and the entire plan hinged on Gravik arbitrarily letting "Fury" stay in the Super Skrullifier machine for no reason while it was running. What if he decided not to do that, since there's no benefit to it? What if he just shot "Fury" in the head instead? I guess Earth would be fucked!

I was unimpressed with Gravik overall. Kingsley Ben-Adir plays him well, but I sort of lost interest in him as a character as soon as he revealed himself to be a megalomaniac who murders his own people for daring to question him. "Oh, he's one of those." Very disappointing. A leader like Gravik should be smooth, charismatic and seductive, and make the Skrulls under him want to give their lives for his cause. He should inspire love and loyalty, not fear. It'd be a more interesting conflict if Gravik were truly beloved by the Skrulls, and Fury and his allies realize "holy shit, if we kill this guy we'll just make a martyr out of him and spark an open revolution. How do we stop him without making this situation worse?" I realize that's a little similar to the Namor dilemma in Wakanda Forever, but a story like this should be mired in shades of grey and difficult decisions, not a clear, bright line between good and evil. Give me something, here.

The central conflict of the series needed some massaging as well. Why do the Skrulls -- an advanced, spacefaring race with knowledge of the cosmos -- expect humans -- a species whose reach has barely extended beyond our own moon, even in the MCU -- to be able to find them a new planet? Is there no one else the Skrulls can turn to for help? Hey, what about the "garden" planet Thanos retired to after Infinity War? The one that was lush with vegetation and explicitly stated to be uninhabited? The one that's easily reachable from Earth via jump gates? Can we put the Skrulls there? Oh I guess not, because ??????

I liked the stuff with Fury and his wife, and as always I loved Olivia Colman. Please please please bring her back.

In the end, Secret Invasion was a series about two conflicting and incompatible ideologies... about how the name Talos should be pronounced.