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To Infinity and Beyond: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
Okay, so… okay.

I’ve seen a lot of superhero movies. I’ve seen a lot of animated movies. Now I have to hold up Across the Spider-Verse as a point of comparison.

So now I think they all suck.
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
Oddly, I'm seeing this movie for the first time tomorrow, too. Is Wednesday the new Friday and nobody told me!?
 

Torzelbaum

????? LV 13 HP 292/ 292
(he, him, his)
It was like that for quite some time in the first decade of the 2000s but switched back to Friday (actually late Thursday night) in the 2010s and now it is only done at certain times.

"Movies typically launch on Wednesdays if their debut coincides with a big holiday weekend so that they don’t get trampled or ignored during big feasts or celebrations."

 
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Okay, so… okay.

I’ve seen a lot of superhero movies. I’ve seen a lot of animated movies. Now I have to hold up Across the Spider-Verse as a point of comparison.

So now I think they all suck.
It's not the best animated movie I've ever seen, but it's a high contender for best superhero movie I've ever seen, and easy best Marvel movie ever made.
 

R.R. Bigman

Coolest Guy
Does it a have a good central villain? Kingpin being a generic bad guy was my only problem with first movie, so if they fixed that it’s gravy.
 

SabreCat

Sabe, Inattentive Type
(he "Sabe" / she "Kali")
A friend of mine saw it yesterday and said
it wasn't really worth seeing, in my opinion
The main villain for the movie only got like 10 minutes of showtime, and they spent like 5 minutes introducing EVERY new Spider-Man. (For each new Spiderman/Spiderwoman/Spiderhorse, they spent 5 minutes introducing /each/. Not 5 minutes total for all of them)
On top of that, they constantly reuse old jokes like the 3-spider-pointing

I can see what everyone else thinks but I was genuinely let down by this
😭
I feel like I can now go see it without bias, as I've heard both extremes XD
 

Vaeran

(GRUNTING)
(he/him)
A friend of mine saw it yesterday and said

it wasn't really worth seeing, in my opinion
The main villain for the movie only got like 10 minutes of showtime, and they spent like 5 minutes introducing EVERY new Spider-Man. (For each new Spiderman/Spiderwoman/Spiderhorse, they spent 5 minutes introducing /each/. Not 5 minutes total for all of them)
On top of that, they constantly reuse old jokes like the 3-spider-pointing
I can see what everyone else thinks but I was genuinely let down by this

😭

I feel like I can now go see it without bias, as I've heard both extremes XD

There’s a take you can cook a steak on.

It's such a radioactive hot take that if it bit you, you'd turn into Hot Take-Man.

I just rewatched the first movie tonight (because I can't get the sequel out of my head), and I can tell you that they call back to a total of two (2) jokes. One is Spider-Men pointing at each other as your friend said, and the other is "I think it's a Banksy." They also don't spend "five minutes" on every new Spider-Man in Across. There are a handful of important new ones and they each get a little focus, just as Noir/Peni/Spider-Ham did in Into, but it hardly drags the pacing down or the spotlight away from Miles and Gwen.

Not everyone's going to love every movie, and if your friend felt let down by the sequel, they're certainly allowed that. But their stated reasoning is just not applicable to the movie I watched, and I think they ought to re-examine what they didn't like about it. By the same token I don't want you to feel pressured to have a positive opinion about it -- I certainly hope you have a great time when you do see it, but if you don't that's fine too.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Just watched it. My relationship with it is a bit complicated.

There is a lot that I loved about it. The artstyle is amazing (no idea if it's the best looking, but it's the most visually artistic I have ever seen). I mean, it's also gorgeous (is this the word? I forgot how to spell it). The humour is great, it's one of the funniest movies I had seen in some time (granted, not that hard, I don't watch many movies - still, it's super funny). Actually, there were so many great jokes in there, that the finger-pointing felt pointlessly silly, like they did it because they had to.

Emotional moments were all great and hit strong. Every time our heroes talked to their parents was really well done.

The first fight scene was amazing. DaVinci Vulture looked awesome, and the way Quenn and the two other Spideys worked together was equally great. Wonderfully choreographed.

The Spot was amazingly done, going from goofy weirdo to really terrifying cosmic horror. He reminded me of Earthbounds Gyigas (that's his name, right?), looking incomprehensible, weird and horrifying. Which, honestly, with how he was set up hit so deep, I had a hard time with it. The social criticizm here is brutal, and felt like it was more than I could stomach, taking me out of the movie.

So, about why it is complicated:

I don't buy the setup here. There are an insane number of Spider-people here. And all of them, except for one of our main characters, accept that the canon things have to happen. Every Spidey has to lose someone important. You can't live in a different dimension. And therefore, Quenn has to accept that Miles will lose his father, as will she (until he quit, anyway, I guess). And everyone accepts it. I don't buy it. Maybe I'm mixing this up with Anime, or other shows, where there is ALWAYS a way, but considering that our Miles doesn't accept it, I simply can't accept that he is the only one here. And all the others, including not only Quenn, but also Papa Peter, Anime Spidey, and probably all the Spideys from the first movie.

I mean, it creates great material. Miles being a misfit around misfits hits extra hard, and is really unfair.

The second point is regarding the movie being a two-parter, without a clear ending. I don't follow news about movies, so maybe this was commicated, at least in previews or something, so I accept that this might be on me. I mean, I shouldn't be expected to read extratextual stuff, but I also have no idea how to incorporate such a fact into the movie itself. Dunno, maybe make it clear in the name of the movie? I'm really glad that I was spoiled about this, because that part would have left a really bad taste.

To be clear, I don't mind it being a movie without an ending in itself. My problem is, that I nearly didn't know. And, considering the reactions of other people in the room, it was not taken well. Again, if it has to be a two parter, that's fine. Having it be a surprise doesn't sit well with me, at all.


This doesn't mean it's a bad movie in any way, shape or form. It was, on the whole, very enjoyable. The ending simply didn't work for me. Still, if you are a fan of Spider-Man, or maybe superhero movies in general, I consider it a must-watch.

The last scene, with the Spideys from the first movie, made me hungry for more. And I guess watching this and the next movie in a row, acting like it's just a five-hour long movie (knowing that it will be loooong) should make my problems go away.

There are more great things, that I didn't mention. I love this weird Spidey-Universe. I love the goofy Spideys, especially the animals. I love how there are seemingly Spideys who are just there for running the cafeteria. It's delightfully dumb.

Probably more that I'm not thinking of, at the moment. But this is long enough already.
 

SpoonyBard

Threat Rhyme
(He/Him)
I saw the new Spiders-Mans as well and overall I loved it a lot. I think I might like the first Spiderverse movie more just for the virtue of it being a single complete movie, but I think I liked individual moments in this one more overall.

Really my biggest (only?) complaint about Across is that it feels less like a complete 2 hour movie and more like it was supposed to be a 3 hour movie that had its third act chopped off. The To Be Continued is REALLY abrupt. I was so into the movie I didn't even realize how much time had passed and while I knew it was going to end on a cliffhanger I honestly wasn't expecting it where it was. And I also feel just a tad worried about Beyond as it is set up because it might turn out to be just one super long third act and we already saw that in cinema and it was called Battle of Five Armies and it didn't work out great there either.

I'll hold onto hope, though, because Across was just so goddamn good I want to see them stick the landing for Beyond.
 

Adrenaline

Post Reader
(He/Him)
I liked the movie. But I liked it a lot less than the first. I really don't like the premise of Miguel's mission at all and I really don't buy that basically every Spider-Man, including Peter B and Gwen, would buy into it without asking any questions that we can see until Miles shows up and starts making a mess. And I don't know how you make one of the longest animated movies of all time that feels like half a story. ItSV told a complete, satisfying story in less time than it took one to basically set up the stakes for the actual story in part 3. Good character stuff, great art, kind of a failure otherwise.
 
I don't buy the setup here. There are an insane number of Spider-people here. And all of them, except for one of our main characters, accept that the canon things have to happen. Every Spidey has to lose someone important. You can't live in a different dimension. And therefore, Quenn has to accept that Miles will lose his father, as will she (until he quit, anyway, I guess). And everyone accepts it. I don't buy it. Maybe I'm mixing this up with Anime, or other shows, where there is ALWAYS a way, but considering that our Miles doesn't accept it, I simply can't accept that he is the only one here. And all the others, including not only Quenn, but also Papa Peter, Anime Spidey, and probably all the Spideys from the first movie.
I think I understand this criticism. I think in a different film, I would be right with you. But to me, I thought the messaging here was pretty clear. The entire film, not just Miguel, but a ton of different characters from all across Miles's life tell him things are a certain way, and he just has to deal with it. But the only evidence anyone ever offers up is anecdotal in nature at best. People are treating their experiences as fact, but are either too traumatized by their experiences to look at things more objectively, or too uncritical or too afraid to rock the boat to push back against them. All these other characters might mean well, but they're projecting their traumas and how they deal with it onto Miles. And a big part of the themes of this movie is people projecting onto Milles who he is and what he should be. I thought the film was almost a little to direct having Miles say very directly towards the climax how everyone keeps telling him how his story is supposed to go. The whole thing was in service to demonstrating how toxic society is with its expectations and how it wants to control young brown men. At least that's how I read things

Also, recall that this Spider-Society was founded by Miguel; all new recruits seem like they have to go through him -- I'm pretty sure there's sample selection bias going on here. Where Miguel is only recruiting Spider-people who will tow the company line and reaffirm his worldview. There are very clearly Spider-people out there who don't believe what he says, and they probably aren't invited to the party. Meanwhile, dad-Pete, Spider-punk, Gwen, and Peni all defect in the aftermath. I think it's fine.
 

Paul le Fou

24/7 lofi hip hop man to study/relax to
(He)
Continuing from the above - as for accepting the captain-death canon events, Peter B has already had his, so he's probably more prone to seeing that as "the way things are" - because for him, that is in fact the way things were. A lot of the others are probably in the same boat. Gwen is clearly torn about it, but she also spends most of the movie in a weird place w/r/t her relationship to her father, so I think it's wrapped up in a lot of other complex feelings and, ultimately, she's putting off thinking too hard about it yet (and that whole expectation colors her reconciliation scene with her father too).
 

Adrenaline

Post Reader
(He/Him)
I think a problem I had with the way it all went down is that Miles is kept in the dark until basically what turns out to be the climax of the movie. They don't get more into the specifics of the other characters' understanding of it because there's just no time left to do that. Pretty big pacing issue when you write a four hour movie and chop it in half.
 
The idea that there will be more of this thing I really really enjoyed, and that the story isn't over yet is exciting and enticing to me, not a failing of the film.
 

Paul le Fou

24/7 lofi hip hop man to study/relax to
(He)
It can be both. I'm 100% hype for more of this, but also the ending was kind of a gut punch since I didn't know it was coming and left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. I typically believe that a movie should stand on its own even if its part of something bigger, and Across is kind of testing that belief for me.
 
It has all of the narrative beats, themes, and structure of a stand alone film, including a pretty fulfilling dramatic climax. The only difference between a "stand alone" film and this is that it used the falling action/conclusion to set up the next movie in order to complete the plot threads intentionally left open in this one. I don't see any difference between this and Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back or Lord of the Rings: Two Towers. The only real difference I can see is one of unadjusted expectations, where most of y'all went into those movies knowing they were the 2nd act of a trilogy, and here y'all getting into things on the ground floor.
 

Adrenaline

Post Reader
(He/Him)
All I can say is that I don't agree on it being a satisfying climax. I liked the movie and failure is maybe a harsh word but it's just how I felt.
 
All I can say is that I don't agree on it being a satisfying climax.
Miles fought off like a thousand different Spider-People all coming at him at the same time, and came out on top. While also getting to tell them off in the process with a pretty damned good comeback to all the toxic shit people were trying to tell him he was just a stupid kid who wasn’t good enough to hang with them/he was a mistake. I was pretty much giving a standing ovation when that happened. Everything after that is the falling action and epilogue. If that scene didn’t do it for you, that just is what it is, I guess. 🤷‍♂️
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
But that scene is clearly not all there is to the story. It's not the endpoint in any way. It felt more like he learned the lesson for himself, but still had to put it into action. I mean, he can say that stuff (and it was really great, very cool scene, very good talk), but angry Spider-Man will not be stopped by that. There is still stuff to do.

And that's not even taking into account that we haven't dealt with the Spot in any way. Or that angry Spider-Mans arc has just started. Or that we simply have no idea what makes dimensions actually collaps (seriously, I really need more info on this, because it's definitely not how it seems to angry Spider-Man). It's simply clear that there is still a lot left.


Regarding LOTR and Star Wars - (are we spoilering that the movie is clearly only the first half of a big one?) I haven't watched the LOTR movies since they came out, and while I watched episode 5 of Star Wars recently, I didn't really pay that much attention, so I can't really say how I reacted to that. But I already mentioned that, to me, it is very different if I know beforehand. Honestly, I think they should just straight-up tell you. It just is a thing with movies, that we expect them to be full stories. As long as nearly every movie is that way, just say so. Say it on the comercials, say it on the tickets, mention it at the start of the movie. I don't care if it spoils anything, to me this is essential information, simply because movies are generally full stories. And yes, if I would watch Star Wars or LOTR, I would be equally annoyed, if it just stopped, basically in the middle of it. Knowing about stuff simply IS part of the experience. And for me, this is something essential, something I really need to know before.

I get why they don't do it - people might think about not watching this part, and wait for a double feature, or something, when the next one is out. I had thought about this, so there are definitely more who would do so. It just feels like them being dishonest, and that's what I don't like. It's not part of the story, or the movie, really, it's just extra-textual stuff (and I don't know if that is the right word, but I hope it's clear what I mean). You are not ruining anything by telling me. You might if you don't tell me.

But this is part of a bigger thing. I simply lost interest in super-continuous storytelling. I get it, sometimes it is necessary, but generally it feels like a cheap way of making sure that people will come back. I explicitely didn't continue with Disenchantment, because the season ended with a goddamn cliffhanger. I can forgive it (the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina are basically giant, season-long episodes, semi-randomly broken into pieces, and I still adore it), but it is something that might make me stop watching. Like, I think back to TNG, where we had to have all these two-parters at the end of a season, no matter if there was a point or not, just because of Best of Both Worlds. If the story is really that long, ok, go for it. Often, it could be avoided.


Anyway, I went off-topic here, and I will stop now before this gets even longer.
 
But that scene is clearly not all there is to the story. It's not the endpoint in any way.
It is absolutely the end point of the film’s main story. The entire thrust of the film is about Miles being sad and missing his friends, finding out they’re a part of a cool secret society, then finding out why he’s not invited and why he has to gtfo. Like, that is the story. It just so happens that it is also at the same time, laying down the foundations for what will come next through the entire film.
But I already mentioned that, to me, it is very different if I know beforehand.
And that’s my point. That’s the only real difference here. I could write a graduate’s thesis on why people should free themselves of the burden of expectations, and why they’re such a self-sabotaging phenomenon we continually engage with. This difference in information here is not portrayed in the films themselves - nowhere in The Empire Strikes Back does the film advertise it will have a cliffhanger ending and a sequel if you’re seeing it for the first time. This is meta-knowledge most viewers pick up outside of the film at this point. But imagine going back to 1980 and reading reviews criticize one of the greatest movies of all time for ending on a surprise cliffhanger to be resolved in a previously unannounced sequel. All it is, is just weird a artifact of the zeitgeist that nobody will remember in a year or two when the conclusion comes out.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
It is absolutely the end point of the film’s main story. The entire thrust of the film is about Miles being sad and missing his friends, finding out they’re a part of a cool secret society, then finding out why he’s not invited and why he has to gtfo. Like, that is the story. It just so happens that it is also at the same time, laying down the foundations for what will come next through the entire film.
Yeah, I disagree. It's clearly intertwined with other stuff, and that is not resolved. It doesn't matter if Miles personal journey is the (only) main story, it simply doesn't feel like that to me, so I find it unsatisfying.
This isn't about the film being good or not, it's about how it worked for me. And this part simply didn't.

And that’s my point. That’s the only real difference here. I could write a graduate’s thesis on why people should free themselves of the burden of expectations, and why they’re such a self-sabotaging phenomenon we continually engage with. This difference in information here is not portrayed in the films themselves - nowhere in The Empire Strikes Back does the film advertise it will have a cliffhanger ending and a sequel if you’re seeing it for the first time. This is meta-knowledge most viewers pick up outside of the film at this point. But imagine going back to 1980 and reading reviews criticize one of the greatest movies of all time for ending on a surprise cliffhanger to be resolved in a previously unannounced sequel. All it is, is just weird a artifact of the zeitgeist that nobody will remember in a year or two when the conclusion comes out.
Yeah, but if you make a movie, you know that nearly all of them have their own story. Simple solution, as I said: Tell me. Tell me in the commercials, write it on the ticket, mention it at the start of the movie. Just some text on a black screen. There is no reason not to do that, except for people who will then not go. It's intentionally left out, and feels like I'm being lied to. (Again, if it is communicated, than it's mainly on me, but considering the reaction of other people, it isn't).

Sure, if not nearly every movie was its own story, that would be no big deal. But most movies are their own story. So expectations are known, and it's very easy to correct the wrong expectation, that is simply there. And I would find it an absolute legitimate point to bring up in reviews, because it does change how the movie works, at least for now. And that is all I have, at the moment.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that. It's great that it worked for you, and so many other people. I enjoyed the movie a lot, except for the mentioned points. This isn't about the movie being objectively bad, it's just about it working for me, or not. And, while talking about it is interesting, no logical argument will change how I feel about this, that's just not how it works.

Agree to disagree, etc...

Edit: This sounds kind of shitty, stopping the discussion by saying I'm out. I'll read an answer, if you write one, I just won't keep up the debate myself, because I think I made my point. I just don't know how to do this without sounding like a jerk. Sorry if it does.
 
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