To Infinity and Beyond: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

[WisteriaHysteria]

All I can say is that I don't agree on it being a satisfying climax.

Miles fought off like a thousand different Spider-People all coming at him at the same time, and came out on top. While also getting to tell them off in the process with a pretty damned good comeback to all the toxic shit people were trying to tell him he was just a stupid kid who wasn’t good enough to hang with them/he was a mistake. I was pretty much giving a standing ovation when that happened. Everything after that is the falling action and epilogue. If that scene didn’t do it for you, that just is what it is, I guess.

 

[FelixSH]

But that scene is clearly not all there is to the story. It's not the endpoint in any way. It felt more like he learned the lesson for himself, but still had to put it into action. I mean, he can say that stuff (and it was really great, very cool scene, very good talk), but angry Spider-Man will not be stopped by that. There is still stuff to do.

And that's not even taking into account that we haven't dealt with the Spot in any way. Or that angry Spider-Mans arc has just started. Or that we simply have no idea what makes dimensions actually collaps (seriously, I really need more info on this, because it's definitely not how it seems to angry Spider-Man). It's simply clear that there is still a lot left.

Regarding LOTR and Star Wars - (are we spoilering that the movie is clearly only the first half of a big one?) I haven't watched the LOTR movies since they came out, and while I watched episode 5 of Star Wars recently, I didn't really pay that much attention, so I can't really say how I reacted to that. But I already mentioned that, to me, it is very different if I know beforehand. Honestly, I think they should just straight-up tell you. It just is a thing with movies, that we expect them to be full stories. As long as nearly every movie is that way, just say so. Say it on the comercials, say it on the tickets, mention it at the start of the movie. I don't care if it spoils anything, to me this is essential information, simply because movies are generally full stories. And yes, if I would watch Star Wars or LOTR, I would be equally annoyed, if it just stopped, basically in the middle of it. Knowing about stuff simply IS part of the experience. And for me, this is something essential, something I really need to know before.

I get why they don't do it - people might think about not watching this part, and wait for a double feature, or something, when the next one is out. I had thought about this, so there are definitely more who would do so. It just feels like them being dishonest, and that's what I don't like. It's not part of the story, or the movie, really, it's just extra-textual stuff (and I don't know if that is the right word, but I hope it's clear what I mean). You are not ruining anything by telling me. You might if you don't tell me.

But this is part of a bigger thing. I simply lost interest in super-continuous storytelling. I get it, sometimes it is necessary, but generally it feels like a cheap way of making sure that people will come back. I explicitely didn't continue with Disenchantment, because the season ended with a goddamn cliffhanger. I can forgive it (the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina are basically giant, season-long episodes, semi-randomly broken into pieces, and I still adore it), but it is something that might make me stop watching. Like, I think back to TNG, where we had to have all these two-parters at the end of a season, no matter if there was a point or not, just because of Best of Both Worlds. If the story is really that long, ok, go for it. Often, it could be avoided.

Anyway, I went off-topic here, and I will stop now before this gets even longer.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

But that scene is clearly not all there is to the story. It's not the endpoint in any way.

It is absolutely the end point of the film’s main story. The entire thrust of the film is about Miles being sad and missing his friends, finding out they’re a part of a cool secret society, then finding out why he’s not invited and why he has to gtfo. Like, that is the story. It just so happens that it is also at the same time, laying down the foundations for what will come next through the entire film.

But I already mentioned that, to me, it is very different if I know beforehand.

And that’s my point. That’s the only real difference here. I could write a graduate’s thesis on why people should free themselves of the burden of expectations, and why they’re such a self-sabotaging phenomenon we continually engage with. This difference in information here is not portrayed in the films themselves - nowhere in The Empire Strikes Back does the film advertise it will have a cliffhanger ending and a sequel if you’re seeing it for the first time. This is meta-knowledge most viewers pick up outside of the film at this point. But imagine going back to 1980 and reading reviews criticize one of the greatest movies of all time for ending on a surprise cliffhanger to be resolved in a previously unannounced sequel. All it is, is just weird a artifact of the zeitgeist that nobody will remember in a year or two when the conclusion comes out.

 

[FelixSH]

It is absolutely the end point of the film’s main story. The entire thrust of the film is about Miles being sad and missing his friends, finding out they’re a part of a cool secret society, then finding out why he’s not invited and why he has to gtfo. Like, that is the story. It just so happens that it is also at the same time, laying down the foundations for what will come next through the entire film.

Yeah, I disagree. It's clearly intertwined with other stuff, and that is not resolved. It doesn't matter if Miles personal journey is the (only) main story, it simply doesn't feel like that to me, so I find it unsatisfying.
This isn't about the film being good or not, it's about how it worked for me. And this part simply didn't.

And that’s my point. That’s the only real difference here. I could write a graduate’s thesis on why people should free themselves of the burden of expectations, and why they’re such a self-sabotaging phenomenon we continually engage with. This difference in information here is not portrayed in the films themselves - nowhere in The Empire Strikes Back does the film advertise it will have a cliffhanger ending and a sequel if you’re seeing it for the first time. This is meta-knowledge most viewers pick up outside of the film at this point. But imagine going back to 1980 and reading reviews criticize one of the greatest movies of all time for ending on a surprise cliffhanger to be resolved in a previously unannounced sequel. All it is, is just weird a artifact of the zeitgeist that nobody will remember in a year or two when the conclusion comes out.

Yeah, but if you make a movie, you know that nearly all of them have their own story. Simple solution, as I said: Tell me. Tell me in the commercials, write it on the ticket, mention it at the start of the movie. Just some text on a black screen. There is no reason not to do that, except for people who will then not go. It's intentionally left out, and feels like I'm being lied to. (Again, if it is communicated, than it's mainly on me, but considering the reaction of other people, it isn't).

Sure, if not nearly every movie was its own story, that would be no big deal. But most movies are their own story. So expectations are known, and it's very easy to correct the wrong expectation, that is simply there. And I would find it an absolute legitimate point to bring up in reviews, because it does change how the movie works, at least for now. And that is all I have, at the moment.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that. It's great that it worked for you, and so many other people. I enjoyed the movie a lot, except for the mentioned points. This isn't about the movie being objectively bad, it's just about it working for me, or not. And, while talking about it is interesting, no logical argument will change how I feel about this, that's just not how it works.

Agree to disagree, etc...

Edit: This sounds kind of shitty, stopping the discussion by saying I'm out. I'll read an answer, if you write one, I just won't keep up the debate myself, because I think I made my point. I just don't know how to do this without sounding like a jerk. Sorry if it does.

 

[Sprite]

Meanwhile I’m just constantly delighted that in the middle of this master class in animation that’s single-handedly moving the medium forward is a billboard that reads, “SODA: It’s a Generic Brand.” I am so here for movies which are both stunningly beautiful and intensely goofy.

 

[Dark Medusa]

Yeah, I understand the people who were caught off guard and don't like that it didn't really "resolve" at the end of the movie, and I'd be lying if I felt like where they left off felt like a perfect place, but I didn't really mind it. It just made me more excited that there was more to see and resolve, and I trust the filmmakers to at least make that resolution a lot of fun, if not engaging.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Yeah, I knew that the movie was filmed as a part one with Beyond intended to be the conclusion but even then the place it ended didn't feel satisfying to me.

And I'm a fan that's fairly caught up on this stuff, there were some disappointed kids and confused parents in the audience when the movie stopped where it did. Even The Empire Strikes Back had a big final 'looking out at space' scene with the protagonists in a moment of respite despite the otherwise shocking cliffhanger.

 

[gogglebob]

I feel like there's a difference between a "movie cliffhanger" and "commercial break cliffhanger". This definitely felt like the latter.

Other than that, though, this was an amazing movie that is easily my favorite of the year so far. I may or may not write a stupidly long essay comparing this to that Spider-Man movie from last year...

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

And, while talking about it is interesting, no logical argument will change how I feel about this, that's just not how it works.

I get where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong either. Just coming from my POV though, I spent a lot of time not getting the most out of the media I consumed because I was too busy either letting an emotional reaction to betrayed expectations subsume my thought process without ever really sitting down and thinking critically if that was fair expectations to have to begin with. (See: back when I thought DS9 wasn't real Star Trek because it didn't do all these things I thought Star Trek must do.)

Different people watch movies for different reasons, so if you want something discrete and stand alone from a movie, I get it and that's fair. But getting a feeling of betrayal that a film - that is already a sequel/continuation of a highly successful film - is left open ended with another intended sequel, then maybe those expectations weren't totally fair to begin with. Also the way I see things as well, the Spider-verse movies are very intentionally films that - in both theme and form, are about questioning the status quo, and challenging preconceptions/expectations. Cartoon movies aren't supposed to look like this. Spider-Man isn't supposed to be brown. Miles shouldn't have ever been Spider-Man to begin with. Etc, etc. Tweaking the narrative structure of what a movie "should be" is wholly in line with the rest of the movies' M.O.

Even The Empire Strikes Back had a big final 'looking out at space' scene with the protagonists in a moment of respite despite the otherwise shocking cliffhanger.

Spoiler

Spiderverse 2 literally ends in the same kind of way, where Gwen puts together a team of rogues that strike hero poses and look bravely to the future, about to set off to go rescue Miles. (Who ends the film distressed/captured just like Han Solo.) Like, the parallels between the two films cannot be a coincidence. Empire Strikes Back is the industry blueprint for how to structure the middle part of a three part story, I guarantee the makers of this film looked to it for inspiration at the very least:

The problem from the last film is back and worse than ever. The main characters are split up and on separate paths. There is a feeling of betrayal where a mentor character - stuck rigidly in their own preconceptions of how the world should work - advises the main character to not intervene and protect their loved ones. The main characters experience huge setbacks that leave them on their heels with a bleak outlook. One of the main characters ends up captured. The ghosts of the main character's past comes back to haunt them, and they're confronted with a reflection of the darkness within them and what an evil version of them would look like. There's a romance subplot, but the two are pulled apart by unfortunate circumstance. I can guarantee that the makers of this movie were like, these cannot just be pure coincidence.
So it's just strange to me that people could love when one movie does all these things and ends on a cliffhanger on top of a mountain of unresolved plot threads, versus another film trying its best to copy the exact form of that first movie, but now this isn't how movies should be. Like, the literal only difference I can see is that most of us were either children in our formative years, unburdened by expectations, or not even alive yet when Empire Strikes Back came out. And we've only ever known of the Star Wars films as a complete, discrete thing. Unburdened by expectations, or anxiety over whether or not it will end well/come to a satisfying conclusion.

 

[Adrenaline]

I agree that Empire Strikes Back is a great movie, but I would also say it has the least satisfying ending of the three movies in the original trilogy. A good movie can have a questionable ending, and if the next movie pays off the cliffhanger, it can soften any hard feelings towards that cliffhanger. That could happen here. My opinion of AtSV might improve based on how BtSV turns out, but for now I see a movie I like a lot that has pacing problems and feels like an unfinished thought.

 

[Paul le Fou]

One way of looking at it that helped me come to terms with this movie is to look at it as Gwen's Movie. The movie starts, largely comprises of, and ends on her whole struggle of finding a band to join/finding friends, joining a band and discovering she doesn't fit after all, but finding friends and making her own band. It covers her whole emotional arc including her conflict and resolution with her father, and comes to an end on a triumphant note. Meanwhile, Miles has the B-plot through this movie, and half of his story is the same as or intertwined with Gwen's anyway—finding friends and like company, plus his feelings for her. He does have an arc about telling how his story is supposed to go, but it's not a complete arc; we even see this mirrored with Gwen's in his stifled coming-out scene, followed immediately by a twisted reflection of "his story." Now, I think the movie does as well as it can to try and divert the attention toward Gwen, but still puts too much emphasis on Miles (plus the whole expectation of Miles-as-main-protagonist coming from the first movie) and that's why it still feels unsatisfying. I don't know how I would or they could have changed the movie to fix this, but it's where I stand on it right now.

The other reason is just how abrupt the ending feels. It's not a bad cliffhanger point, but there's a lot of momentum that cuts right off without much denouement. To go back to the Empire Strikes Back comparison, what AtSV does would be like ending that movie right on "I am your father" "NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" Lando and Leia on their way in the Falcon, cut straight to credits. ESB gives the low point room to resolve and breathe. Crucially, it gets Luke (main protagonist) out of his low point and into a stable place where he can start climbing his way back up, by letting him escape and start to recover; meanwhile, Han (secondary character) is the one still in distress.

As a thought experiment, imagine what AtSV would feel like if Gwen were captured and Miles were the one recovering from his low point but on his way to save her. I bet you audiences would be less upset about it because of expectations of who the protagonist and side characters are. (There's a can of worms here about gender expectations too, but I think the same might hold true if the roles were similarly switched in ESB.)

 

[Sprite]

I think framing it as Gwen’s movie would work, except that she’s withholding information from the audience for most of the movie, which cements Miles as the viewpoint character for the lion’s share of screentime. She definitely has a complete arc, though, which is a good way to look at it. Miles basically just finished singing “Let It Go” and is now closed off in his metaphorical ice palace.

(I don’t mind the cliffhanger)

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

The other reason is just how abrupt the ending feels. It's not a bad cliffhanger point, but there's a lot of momentum that cuts right off without much denouement. To go back to the Empire Strikes Back comparison, what AtSV does would be like ending that movie right on "I am your father" "NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" Lando and Leia on their way in the Falcon, cut straight to credits.

See, I think the issue here is again, a misidentification of the climax. The climax of Spiderverse2 is when Miles escapes the Spider-Society. At which point, there is still like 15 minutes of movie after that, showing the falling action and consequences. Which is waaayyyyyyyy more time than Empire Strikes Back lent for falling action/epilogue. It seems like y'all think the climax is where Miles confronts the version of himself from Earth-42 which, if that whole segment had been pulled out of the movie and instead inserted in the middle of the credits or post-credits, y'all would have no problem. Because that is more a teaser of/setup for what's next rather than any form of resolution of the plot of this film. A standard Disney/Marvel film would have done so, but I'm glad this one didn't and dispensed with any mid/post-credit scenes because if we're going to criticize films about pacing, that's something I can get behind. And I will never get mad at a film for having too much falling action/epilogue because modern cinema is more likely to just stop abruptly at the climax and have little-to-none of the stuff that's supposed to come afterwards.

One way of looking at it that helped me come to terms with this movie is to look at it as Gwen's Movie.

I don't see it as one or the other. It's clearly a film about both of them at the same time, and comparing/contrasting their different yet similar experiences. They connect with one another because "they're the same" and this film goes the extra mile to actually portray that rather than the first film where Gwen was a supporting character with whom we just had to take their word for it because they spent little-to-no time actually developing her. This dynamic I thought worked exquisitely because 1) Gwen is a great character and deserves this amount of screen time and contemplation, 2) splitting the perspective up is a good way of justifying the length of the film because it's always doing something meaningful with one of the two characters rather than artificially padding the story out. And 3) each characters story helps to inform not just their own characters, but supports the central comparison/contrast between the two leads.

The last point of which, really makes everything in the film click thematically. It works really well and is quite frankly inspired. Because Gwen isn't just elevated to the role of a co-star in order to check off diversity boxes, but her story has impact and meaning that reinforces and strengthens the film's central conceites and complements the film's other main character. Getting to see Gwen's struggles with her father first hand, makes her a sympathetic figure and lends credibility to her assertion that Miles' impulses are wrong. And seeing her reconcile with him gives us as the audience proof that Miles is actually correct beyond just because he's the main character and things magically work out for him. When Miles pushes her away in this film, the pain of that hits the audience harder because not only do we see Miles's perspective, but we know Gwen's as well and why/how she would be hurt from all of this too.

And to me, this all goes back to the core nature of the films regarding breaking boundaries in cinema, and defying the "usual" way movies unfold. I think on occasion you might see some ensemble films or romcoms engage this sort of spotlight sharing, but it's almost never executed this well. Especially in the superhero genre. You only need to look at Marvel's own films like "Captain America: Civil War" where the title-character plays second fiddle the entire time in what is ostensibly his own movie. Even ensemble films like the X-Men movies or the Avengers films, tend to hover and emphasize the perspective of one central character at the expense of its costars. Spiderverse2 does the best job to date that I can remember, of actually crafting a narrative around two relatively equal characters and making it feel like neither is being lessened at the expense of the other.

 

[Vaeran]

I bet you forgot the first episode of Secret Invasion was today! I didn't! It was pretty good!

Spoiler: OR AM I ONLY SAYING THAT BECAUSE I'M A SKRULL

I've said this before but I love "anyone could be an enemy agent" plots, so I am all in on the premise. "The Skrulls are actually a bunch of nice goofballs" was a clever twist in Captain Marvel but it also meant I didn't get the paranoia that I wanted out of that movie. Now here it is, in a format that it's probably better suited for. And I'm extra glad that Nick Fury finally gets some focus after more or less existing in the margins of the present-day MCU since The Winter Soldier. Whatcha been up to, Fury?

I called Ross being a Skrull in the opening very early on because I am an ultra clever lad, but there's a lot I didn't see coming, like Hill's death. Damn.

The casting in this is great; I'll watch Olivia Colman in anything and hope we see a lot more of her in this series. I'm enjoying Ben Mendo's performance, and look forward to more meaty scenes with him and Emilia Clarke. "I haven't even had my mid-life crisis shopping spree yet. What'd you get for yours?" "The Avengers." Hah!

I think it'd be fun if the Skrull plot isn't completely resolved at the end of SI. Maybe we stop Gravik's rebellion, but the last scene is Fury being handed a list of remaining known Skrull agents on Earth and going "...Oh shit."

 

[Torzelbaum]

 

[Octopus Prime]

Not gonna lie; that looks like a fun movie

 

[Johnny Unusual]

Why Batman 89 font?

 

[Octopus Prime]

It never goes out of style

 

[BEAT]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671500685433602050

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671501933490651136

 

[BEAT]

Marvel Studios is not some dweeb making a surrealistic lyric video for a system of a down song.

They are the crown jewel of the largest, richest entertainment conglomerate on the planet.

THEY DON'T GET TO DO THAT SHIT.

 

[Torzelbaum]

Why Batman 89 font?

It never goes out of style

Batman 89 is like an ancestor of all modern comic book superhero movies. Can it be called their progenitor? I don't know...

 

[Daikaiju]

Batman 89 is like an ancestor of all modern comic book superhero movies. Can it be called their progenitor? I don't know...

Not Superman?

 

[Torzelbaum]

Yeah, the Superman movies were definitely part of the birth or genesis of the genre but I feel like 89 and its sequels matches a lot more with modern cape movies than Superman 78 does. But I'm not sure where to put the 80s Superman sequels in this evolutionary/family tree.

 

[Johnny Unusual]

Batman 89 is like an ancestor of all modern comic book superhero movies. Can it be called their progenitor? I don't know...

And if any character justifies it, it's a b-level baddie who only had one series of his own about his son going to Hollywood.

 

[Lakupo]

Turned Secret Invasion on last night out of curiosity (and quit after 15 minutes because we just didn't care that much)

Me: "I get the concept they were going for with the intro, and it's not like there's no effort here to tie it together, but it turned out kind of... mid."
My husband: "Mid... journey?"

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Imagine a show about Charlie’s Angels. But there’s no angels. It’s just Charlie. And he’s old. And the entire time everyone tells him nonstop he’s too old to be doing stuff. But he does stuff anyways and he’s bad at it and it’s boring. And that’s Secret Invasion so far.

 

[BEAT]

It's kind of a shame because the idea of an entire show that's just Sam the man doing Jason Bourne shit seemed like an obvious slam dunk.

But also lol. LMAO.

 

[Vaeran]

I guess I like boring stuff! Secret Invasion's alright by me so far.

Spoiler

The centerpiece of the episode for me was the one-on-one between Rhodey and Fury in the tavern, even though for a man who has personally fought aliens on multiple occasions, Rhodey sure seems quick to dismiss Fury's claims that an invasion is underway. You'd think he'd have earned a bit of credibility, or at least the benefit of the doubt. Still, great scene.

Olivia Colman is scary and I love it. More please!

Don't Skrulls revert to their true form when they die? Brogan's finger certainly did once it was detached. Seems kind of risky to dump a Skrull body in the woods when you're part of a... secret invasion.

I guess the Skrulls must have operatives in Wakanda, as I'm not sure how else they would have acquired pieces of Groot. (Presumably his discarded vines did not dust along with the rest of him when Thanos snapped.)

For a hot second I thought Fury's wife at the end was Soren and I was like OH SHIT but no, she's just some Skrullgirl. I'm sorry, they all look alike to me!!!

 

[Vaeran]

Secret Invasion isn't quite what I'd hoped for but it's still keeping my interest.

Spoiler

That said, I'd trade it all in a heartbeat for six episodes of just Olivia Colman being an ice cold murderess with a sunny, affable smile.

I lol'd at Fury half-heartedly pistol whipping Rhodey in the hospital out of frustration. Bonk.

I was hoping that Ben Mendo wasn't really dead because he's probably the second best part of this series next to Colman. Oh well.

It feels like an editing mistake that they had one of Gravik's henchmen go HEY WE HAVEN'T FOUND THAT SECRET CACHE OF AVENGERS DNA YET up top, and then tried to get us involved in the mystery of what "The Harvest" is. Oh, oh! I bet I know!

I really hope when they rescue the real Rhodey it turns out to be Terrance Howard. Fury just looks back and forth at the two of them and Cheadle-Rhodey's like "What? I improvised a little."

 

[Adrenaline]

I don't really love the story the show is telling but I'm enjoying the different scenes of good actors doing spy thriller stuff.