The Ultimate Final Fantasy Thread: This Guy Are Knock You All Down

FelixSH said:

Both are excellent games. X has probably my favourite setting and definitely my favourite battle system of any FF. X-2 is just plain fun, and it-s job system is great. The only reason why I don't like it too much is, that the battle system is TOO fast paced, for my taste. But I'm pretty alone with that problem, I think.

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You're not. I like it and aprecciate it for what it tries to do, but the battle system is too fast - a 180 degree turn from FFXs chill paced battle system - and the mood is a bit too silly while still taking place in the somber world of FFX. The obtuse requirements to get the 100% ending are another strike against it. It is a good game, and you bet I've bought it four times, just not near the top in my own FF list.

I’m really looking forward to playing them now. Thanks, all.

I think for me both X and X-2 are in my upper-middle tier of FF games just below my all-time faves like VI and XII. I really enjoy both battle systems for very different reasons. X's is more relaxed and breezy but still has a good amount of depth when you start messing with turn-order and stuff. X-2's as people have mentioned is super fast-moving, and the dress-up stuff is honestly one of my fave job system implementations ever. I played the hell out of post-game content* on both of 'em, which is my usual bar for "am I having a good time with these systems".

* Well, for the original versions anyway. I haven't messed with the International/updated versions, which I hear add some really gnarly additional postgame.

Are there postgame bosses in like the Monster Arena that aren't just "go get Attack Reels for Wakka* and hope for a lucky spin" or "hope Mindy uses Passado"? Because even when I was younger and had more patience for dumb bullshit that was more dumb bullshit than I could handle.

I guess what I'm saying is count me in the camp that considers the endgame grind in FFX to be largely intolerable, I guess.

* - Jesus that's a lot of Blitzball

nosimpleway said:

Are there postgame bosses in like the Monster Arena that aren't just "go get Attack Reels for Wakka* and hope for a lucky spin" or "hope Mindy uses Passado"? Because even when I was younger and had more patience for dumb bullshit that was more dumb bullshit than I could handle.

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The Dark Aeons and Penance require* min-maxing your stats to an extreme degree, including Luck, which is never really a factor in the Monster Arena bosses. So you have to fill in empty spheres in the grid, and at least do some amount of erase-and-replace on the +1 stat spheres.

* Okay that's not entirely fair because there is a clear progression of stat requirements when fighting the Dark Aeons. I think I only started running into trouble when I got to Dark Shiva because of her Evasion and Speed...

DarkKefka has some very good Dark Aeons (heh) videos that show more in-depth mechanics, but yeah, you do kinda need to min-max to some capacity.

The Monster Arena and Dark Aeons are excellent arguments for why you shouldn't be a completionist

Octopus Prime said:

The Monster Arena and Dark Aeons are excellent arguments for why you shouldn't be a completionist

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FFX & FFXII are the one-two punch that finally broke me of my completionist habits, and I've always been better for it. I swear I could feel the designers winking at me.

All that said: I never really used Wakka in the Arena, except for that one underwater boss, and I never used Aeons past like the first quarter of the game. You can clear the entire arena and most of the Dark Aeons without deleting and rearranging your Sphere Grid or getting the Celestial Weapons.

(You do definitely want some tricked-out equipment by the end of the Monster Arena, but getting that far also gets you the items you need to customize Auto-Phoenix/Auto-Haste/Ribbon, so)

R.R. Bigman said:

So X is still prior to the Final Fantasy games getting...troubled developments? Was Sakaguchi still with the franchise?

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He was still at Square, and his name's on the game in the executive producer capacity that most latter-day Squaresoft games do, but he wasn't intimately involved to any degree because other things kept him busy: Final Fantasy IX being in development at the same time, as his last centrally creative project with the series and company, and the filming of The Spirits Within, both of which involved the establishment of studios in Hawaii to make them over a period of years. In addition to all of those, XI was in development at the time too--it was a really explosive time for the series, doing all these things previously impossible with the technology and scale of development just a few years prior.

X's long-term reception is interesting because it usually falls in the can't-do-wrong period of the series in people's recollections, which is probably influenced by these same voices having played it when younger, so it's recipient to that same kind of idealized estimation as some of the others. At the same time, there's a lot to it that strikes a significant presentational, structural or mechanical divide from its predecessors, so you could just as easily have a similar mindset recoil at it in derision. Even more interestingly it presages a game like XIII very closely, due to the involvement of many same key creatives on it, for similarities that were noted or denied away in that comparison (and that design genealogy carries onward to this day in VII Remake as clear as anything). It's very much a transitional fantasy, somehow able to escape the criticisms that in wider discourse swallowed its peers, able to cater to the diehards and the newcomers equally as well. Being an early key title for the most popular game platform of all time of course doesn't hurt its reputation.

Peklo said:

At the same time, there's a lot to it that strikes a significant presentational, structural or mechanical divide from its predecessors, so you could just as easily have a similar mindset recoil at it in derision.

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I very much remember at the time it having a... not bad response necessarily but not being as revered a sit seems to be now. The lack of world map, Nobou Uematsu not being the primary composer, the non-ATB based battle system all made some folks side eye it. Even I really liked it at the time (and still do) but was disappointed by certain things like the airship being reduced to 'select place you want to go from a list' because I really like exploring maps and such. It's reputation has definitely become more favorable over time and in the grand scheme I like it a lot more now than I did when it was new, even if it's still not one of my all time favorites in the franchise.

People were really upset by no world map at the time.

I just know it blew me away when I first put the game into my new PS2 and was greeted by a melancholic piano number paired with a somber narrator (voice-acting! in a Final Fantasy!) talking over a group of silent characters sitting at a campfire. Gives me shivers just thinking about it.

I'm pretty sure I watched, and was dazzled by, the ultra-crisp trailer for FFX that came with the DVD of Spirits Within more times than I watched the movie itself.

Attempting to play through FF15 again. The first time through I made it to Altissia and then fell off the wagon and never made it back on. I haven't touched it since then, since release, so imagine my surprise when seeing the early game gave me some warm and fuzzies. Something about the presentation, the music, the design, just resonated in a way I was not expecting. I'm going to attempt to not do everything on the map so I can keep the ball rolling, sorta speak, and maybe get to the end of it this time.

ASandoval said:

I very much remember at the time it having a... not bad response necessarily but not being as revered a sit seems to be now. The lack of world map, Nobou Uematsu not being the primary composer, the non-ATB based battle system all made some folks side eye it. Even I really liked it at the time (and still do) but was disappointed by certain things like the airship being reduced to 'select place you want to go from a list' because I really like exploring maps and such. It's reputation has definitely become more favorable over time and in the grand scheme I like it a lot more now than I did when it was new, even if it's still not one of my all time favorites in the franchise.

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I don't mind the lack of a world map so much but the lack of one did make it all the more obvious that the world of Final Fantasy X is basically one big pretty hallway.

Doubt it'll ever happen but I would love to see a Final Fantasy X Remake that fleshes out the world of Spira a little more. Between it and Chrono Cross I am all for Squaresoft's primarily tropical RPG settings.

MetManMas said:

Final Fantasy X Remake

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there are technically two of these

I love FFX - i think i've played it more than ten times -, but i also think it is a divisive entry in the series. Like everybody said, you don't have a world to explore - it is a very guided experience. I think it fits the story - you are in a scripted journey, and i feel like the characters are travelling. You also have a guided experience of Spira, which makes for a concise world building. But the battle system is also boring in the early game and the story is not everybody's cup of tea (i love it i love it i love it and this reminds me that i want to drink another cup of tea).

Ah, and the HD Remaster makes it easier to do the post game content because you can increase the speed of the battle system. If you're into tinkering with systems, the post game is more fun now, i think. I've fought for a couple of hours and, if i'm remembering right, i did almost all of the monster arena?

Lokii said:

*X has some egregious end-game optional content that some people find too egregious and some story elements that some players find too silly even for 2000-era Squaresoft camp.

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What story elements? I'm curious...

Lokii said:

People were really upset by no world map at the time.

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That was a given with early PS2 RPGs, wasn't it? Suikoden III didn't have a world map either, Dragon Quarter too... It made playing DQVIII even more bittersweet, i think.

I don’t know if it’s because FF XIII was my first experience with the series, but “No World Map” doesn’t sound so bad compared to “No Towns, Sidequests or NPCs to talk to”.

aturtledoesbite said:

there are technically two of these

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I mean more like the 2020 Final Fantasy VII one though, not just an International version or an HD remaster.

That people had a problem with the lack of a world map always seemed to me more rooted in the fact that JRPGs were supposed to have one, and without one, it's not really a JRPG. I mean, it's totally legitimate to prefer rhem with a world map, but that seemed always more like a knee-jerk reaction to me, that people fixated on, without givingthevgame a chance. And, to be honest, the same thing seemed to happen with FF XIII.

I mean, if you play these games and miss a world map, or towns, that's fine, but just assuming these games are bad, because they lack something that is supposed to be there, even if there is a good reason they aren't there, is silly.

FFX is a masterpiece. X-2 is very good, but so long as you kind of divorce it from its predecessor and not take it too seriously. I couldn't when I first played it. It was a lot better when I came back to it later and gave it a fair chance. Just don't bother with the endgame grind or 100% completion. Just watch the True Ending on youtube. Fuck games that make you do 100% completion to see true endings. (Unless that's an extremely easy prospect like the Zero Escape games.)

I've spoken to it before, but I loved FFX more than any FF before because it (even more than the closest in this aspect, FF8) featured a distinctly Asian/Japanese setting and characters. It's easy for a Westerner to look at abstracted character models and artwork like Cloud or Zidane and assume oh this is a white guy. You can't do that with Tidus and Yuna. And Spira just breathes the Ryukyu Islands. It's wonderful.

Hironobu Sakaguchi may not have been as intimately involved with the production and scripting of FFX as he was in most early FFs. But I still contend his presence on the project (and of most games from that Golden Era of Squaresoft) was quintessential. One of the most important thing a producer does, is to delegate jobs, keep everyone on task, force people's hands into making necessary decisions and cuts, and generally guide a project to completion. I don't think it's a coincidence that just about every game after he was forced to fall on his sword became mired in development hell and that the experiences of those games generally lost their cohesion as experiences and stories.

As per its popularity or lack thereof, NHK recently did a FF franchise poll. FFX came out as the favorite entry to the franchise, with a pretty even demographic split of men to women, and between people in their 20s and 30s. Most of the other big franchise entries skewed one way or another in some way. FFX came out at the right place, at the right time to appeal to just about everyone. (Also had the 2nd favorite character, with the top favorite music track.)

If you want a translation of the rest of the results:

Ouch at X-2 placing below the monster closets, and at everything that placed below FF11. I can't comment on Crisis Core, but as experimental as all these are, is it really all that better than 12, 13, or X-2?

There's plenty of names I recognize from my current playthrough of FF14, and honestly Hildebrand should be much higher. He's certainly entertaining enough But it's... weird, if not obnoxious, to list Rydia as two separate entities.

Phoenix was robbed in the monster list

WisteriaHysteria said:

I am convinced that almost none of the voters in this poll actually voted for songs here. FF14 could only manage to place one song in the top 25, yet has the most songs represented on the list.

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I think it's a combination of factors: one, the music really IS amazing. Even incidental compositions, exposition BGM, or minor dungeon tracks, is well above the franchise's already high standards. Each piece fits its subject perfectly, and I love that there's many distinct "regular battle" themes depending on the situation.

However, and ironically, because all of the music is so good, there are few standouts within the FF14 albums. There are plenty of pieces that are not as good as others, but they're very, very few (and they're still above FF standard). So, for me at least, it's difficult to zero in on absolute favorites without taking it back immediately and choosing others. In contrast, earlier games really DID have outstanding tracks that are easier to point out and commit to memory, so I'm not surprised they comprise the bulk of the Top 25.

WisteriaHysteria said:

Hironobu Sakaguchi may not have been as intimately involved with the production and scripting of FFX as he was in most early FFs. But I still contend his presence on the project (and of most games from that Golden Era of Squaresoft) was quintessential. One of the most important thing a producer does, is to delegate jobs, keep everyone on task, force people's hands into making necessary decisions and cuts, and generally guide a project to completion. I don't think it's a coincidence that just about every game after he was forced to fall on his sword became mired in development hell and that the experiences of those games generally lost their cohesion as experiences and stories.

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I know Spirits Within was an enormous debacle, but I think Square ended up losing a lot more money and future fan appreciation in the long run by giving Sakaguchi the “window seat”, or whatever uniquely Japanese company punishment they do when they don’t fire you, but won’t let you do much of anything anymore. The Last Story was amazing, and a fair bit of people swear by Lost Odyssey. It would be cool if Square-Enix asked him to come back, especially when they are making a ton of money off of FF VII, which seems really scummy to me.

But would he want to come back? FF has moved on and it's mostly an action RPG series now, and I don't know if FF and Sakaguchi are a fit for each other anymore

His reasons would be his own, but I don't think the actual mechanics of the games would decide that. The Last Story is also an action-RPG (it even has cover mechanics), Terra Battle was a mix of TCG with strategy RPG, and Fantasian has a lot of new concepts redefining the basic turn-based battle system. Where he would be most appreciated is in the production aspect, and building the type of cohesion that, by comparison, 12, 13, and 15, didn't have.

Another factor of XIV's music is that the sheer number of tracks is so, so much higher than the typical FF game. My count has it at over 600 tracks so far between the 1.0 version, ARR, and all 3 expansions. I think that can make it harder for fans to agree on a favorite to vote for, yet the sheer number of tracks means it has more opportunities to grab a spot on a top 100 list.

Dang... Was FFT only able to barely get a song in the top 100?

R.R. Bigman said:

I know Spirits Within was an enormous debacle, but I think Square ended up losing a lot more money and future fan appreciation in the long run by giving Sakaguchi the “window seat”, or whatever uniquely Japanese company punishment they do when they don’t fire you, but won’t let you do much of anything anymore. The Last Story was amazing, and a fair bit of people swear by Lost Odyssey. It would be cool if Square-Enix asked him to come back, especially when they are making a ton of money off of FF VII, which seems really scummy to me.

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Sakaguchi is well into his late 50s, at this point has very little experience with game development of the scope of a modern FF, and seems to have no real desire to return to making official FF games. They have mended what bridges can be mended with Sakaguchi which is why he popped up when FFXV came out to give his "yes I approve of this" before going back to Honolulu, a place he doesn't seem interested in leaving. Neither he nor SE really stands to gain much from him coming back to make... I'm not sure? A full scale FF sounds like a poor fit given he is acting like Fantasian might be his last game, a phone game would just piss a ton of people off, maybe an FFXIV raid would fit but then you'd get "that's all you're having him do" from the non FFXIV fans. I'd also call it a bit odd to say FFVII media is scummy, the many creative forces behind FFVII that were still with the company all seem to have been given important positions in the new FFVII projects. You could reasonably argue that he should receive some sort of credit and payout but that's a way bigger subject that by no means begins and certainly doesn't end with FFVII.

nosimpleway said:

Are there postgame bosses in like the Monster Arena that aren't just "go get Attack Reels for Wakka* and hope for a lucky spin" or "hope Mindy uses Passado"?

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There are a few "Auron with Masamune uses Sentinel while the others buff or heal him" in the early going.