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The Human Adventure Continues: Talking About Star Trek
- Thread starter Johnny Unusual
- Start date
Kira gets some of the best episodes in DS9, because her character is in an inherently interesting/fascinating position of having at one time been a terrorist/freedom fighter, and now she has to adjust to the realities of being A Part of the System and seeing the moral complexities of the world when things are no longer as simple as Cardies = bad. She probably has the best character development arc in the franchise, in spite of the fact they felt the need to pair her up with a rotating cast of bland men. Especially when those episodes/plotlines were easily among some of the worst in the show. Also, every time people praise the writers of DS9, I remember the fact that at one point the same writers wanted to have her be in a relationship with Gul Dukat, and Nana Visitor had to go apeshit to shut that idea down.
FelixSH
(He/Him)
Yeah, even with the great female characters in newer Trek shows, Kira might still be my favorite. And one of my favorite characters in the franchise, period. So multilayered, so much fire, so much strength.
And yeah, her relationships are by far the worst part about her part on the show, without her fault. It's crazy, that there is this character with such a rich background and personality, but she is a woman, so we have to do boring romance nonsense.
Especially that they made her nice friendship with Odo into a romantic thing. Adding romantic drama bullshit (to be fair, I forgot if there was drana, I don't remember the details of that part) and just doing the whole "they are man and woman, they are very close, so the guy can't not be romantically interested" was very disappointing. I love their friendship.
And yeah, her relationships are by far the worst part about her part on the show, without her fault. It's crazy, that there is this character with such a rich background and personality, but she is a woman, so we have to do boring romance nonsense.
Especially that they made her nice friendship with Odo into a romantic thing. Adding romantic drama bullshit (to be fair, I forgot if there was drana, I don't remember the details of that part) and just doing the whole "they are man and woman, they are very close, so the guy can't not be romantically interested" was very disappointing. I love their friendship.
When I do my regular, cyclical rewatch of the franchise, I never skip an episode.
But I think long and hard about passing over DS9 S4E18: "Hard Time" -- you know, the apex O'Brien Must Suffer episode. It's just like... hard to watch. For whatever reason, it's way harder to watch than a similar scenario like Chain of Command. Probably because O'Brien is just a regular dude versus Picard being this titan of a figure where you assume his willpower will always triumph. And unlike Chain of Command, there's no release or moment of triumph like Picard gets at the end. Seeing Miles humbled and broken is just emotionally exhausting.
But I think long and hard about passing over DS9 S4E18: "Hard Time" -- you know, the apex O'Brien Must Suffer episode. It's just like... hard to watch. For whatever reason, it's way harder to watch than a similar scenario like Chain of Command. Probably because O'Brien is just a regular dude versus Picard being this titan of a figure where you assume his willpower will always triumph. And unlike Chain of Command, there's no release or moment of triumph like Picard gets at the end. Seeing Miles humbled and broken is just emotionally exhausting.
DS9 updates, part way through S2:
I'm surprised at how much I'm enjoying Quark episodes. Both Rules of Aquisition and Profit and Loss were standouts, plus they actually have more intriguing bits of meta-plot in them than most episodes. Also it doesn't hurt that sometimes Vizzini is there being Vizzini. In other S2 episodes, the Bajoran coup at the beginning kind of dragged, I thought, but Second Sight and Shadowplay were fun. Paradise was a bit on-the-nose, and Whispers seemed like it might be an intriguing look at what it's like to have a paranoia disorder (I thought maybe OBrien had caught a paranoia virus or something) but the truth turned out turned out to be much more contrived and kind of undermined that reading.
Meanwhile we keep hearing gradually more rumblings about the Dominion, and just glancing ahead at episode titles it looks like we're gonna ramp up that stuff for real by the end of the season.
I'm surprised at how much I'm enjoying Quark episodes. Both Rules of Aquisition and Profit and Loss were standouts, plus they actually have more intriguing bits of meta-plot in them than most episodes. Also it doesn't hurt that sometimes Vizzini is there being Vizzini. In other S2 episodes, the Bajoran coup at the beginning kind of dragged, I thought, but Second Sight and Shadowplay were fun. Paradise was a bit on-the-nose, and Whispers seemed like it might be an intriguing look at what it's like to have a paranoia disorder (I thought maybe OBrien had caught a paranoia virus or something) but the truth turned out turned out to be much more contrived and kind of undermined that reading.
Meanwhile we keep hearing gradually more rumblings about the Dominion, and just glancing ahead at episode titles it looks like we're gonna ramp up that stuff for real by the end of the season.
I think there's a reason why there was never a three-part story ever again in DS9 or VOY (Ending of DS9 excluded.) That three parter was not great and also probably burned off a lot of DS9's tenuous viewership.
Enjoy these first three seasons while you have them. I know it's common ethos to think that DS9 doesn't get good until after that. But the mood of the show really takes a hard pivot once it starts becoming a war drama almost exclusively. It's still a good show, but it's honestly kind of exhausting imo. I'm definitely in the minority, but as someone who relatively frequently rewatches the show, I prefer early DS9 because of it.
Oh yeah, I'm enjoying the very old-trek-y episodic bits just fine, despite sometimes being eager for some nibbles of overarching plot and character arc continuations.
Speaking of character arcs, The Wire was our meatiest bit of Garak-building to date and pretty great, though since he and everyone associated with him lie pretty much all the time it's still hard to get a real handle on him. But that's fine since the lies are especially true.
Before that we had some more fleshing out of the local setting with The Maquis, which was fine, but I was definitely glad they kept it to a two-parter this time. And after, some mirror-universe shenanigans in Crossover which was pretty fun - only Nana and Avery *really* got to flex their wildly-alternate-take on the character chops, but they were great.
Speaking of character arcs, The Wire was our meatiest bit of Garak-building to date and pretty great, though since he and everyone associated with him lie pretty much all the time it's still hard to get a real handle on him. But that's fine since the lies are especially true.
Before that we had some more fleshing out of the local setting with The Maquis, which was fine, but I was definitely glad they kept it to a two-parter this time. And after, some mirror-universe shenanigans in Crossover which was pretty fun - only Nana and Avery *really* got to flex their wildly-alternate-take on the character chops, but they were great.
Oh yeah. Mirror Sisko is terrifying.
Avery Brooks’s ability to chew on the scenery and just really command a scene is unrivaled in the franchise, and that’s saying a LOT.
I know some people are not a fan of DS9’s Mirror Universe episodes, or that setting in general. But I love em. Simply because it’s just so much fun to watch the actors break character and just go ham. They always look like they’re having the time of their lives, and that just makes me happy.
I know some people are not a fan of DS9’s Mirror Universe episodes, or that setting in general. But I love em. Simply because it’s just so much fun to watch the actors break character and just go ham. They always look like they’re having the time of their lives, and that just makes me happy.
We're nowhere near the "O'Brien must suffer" episode Wist was complaining about, but he's sure not having a good time in Tribunal either. What is it about the guy that just attracts horrible fates.
Anyway, then we hit Jem'Hadar and shit suddenly gets real. I love how Avery Brooks manages to convey that even while Sisko is handling things in a generally calm and in-control manner, you can tell that just behind the facade of command he's thinking "ohhhhhhh fuck we in trouble now". The ep does a generally good job of suddenly pivoting the Dominion from "vaguely menacing mystery" to "immediate existential threat". It's a more grounded threat too than something weird and alien like the Borg - these are just some unabashedly aggressive dudes that seem to have significantly better tech than us.
My wife (who's seen the whole show before) commented on the episode that this is where they should have just immediately grabbed anyone they could back from Gamma in a full-scale retreat and tried to do anything possible to seal the wormhole. Which, given what I know of what's to come, does kinda seem sensible.
Anyway, then we hit Jem'Hadar and shit suddenly gets real. I love how Avery Brooks manages to convey that even while Sisko is handling things in a generally calm and in-control manner, you can tell that just behind the facade of command he's thinking "ohhhhhhh fuck we in trouble now". The ep does a generally good job of suddenly pivoting the Dominion from "vaguely menacing mystery" to "immediate existential threat". It's a more grounded threat too than something weird and alien like the Borg - these are just some unabashedly aggressive dudes that seem to have significantly better tech than us.
My wife (who's seen the whole show before) commented on the episode that this is where they should have just immediately grabbed anyone they could back from Gamma in a full-scale retreat and tried to do anything possible to seal the wormhole. Which, given what I know of what's to come, does kinda seem sensible.
The writers picked on him because it’s more interesting to watch an ordinary person undergo pain and suffering, vs the rest of the cast that’s a bunch of perfect super people.
Eh. That’s Section 31 style thinking. The UFP shouldn’t be dissuaded from their raison d'etre because they lost one fight.
I’m sure the fact that Colm Meaney’s such a good actor was a factor, too.
I mean, I could see arguments both ways. Sure, isolationist turtling is against their charter, but they do also have a responsibility to protect their current member civilizations and allies, and more time to prepare against an obviously belligerent, expansionist, conquering force with evidently superior firepower seems like a useful option. Ofc, we have no idea if it's even possible to seal the wormhole (or what effect that could have on the prophet-aliens living their, though with their whole nonlinear time deal they know all of what's happening anyway so not much point trying to second-guess their needs or wants I guess).
The problem with this logic and the solution outlined by your wife is that even if you prioritized defense above everything, turtling against an aggressive, belligerent, expansionist force is probably the worst thing you could do. In order to mount a good defense, you need to know what you're defending against. Which would require further study and engagement. You need to be proactive about searching for threats and evaluating them. Otherwise, you'll just see a repeat of that engagement where you get caught with your pants down and btfo'd. If they shut down the Wormhole, that wouldn't have ended a hypothetical threat from the Dominion. Just delayed it until the two eventually expanded into each other much further down the line. And without keeping tabs on them in the intermediate, you could find yourself in an even worse situation as a result. Think how boned the Earth was in Macross II - where these super-Zentradi show up out of nowhere at Earth's front door, and there's no buffer or grace period left because you weren't proactive about searching the galaxy and learning about threats before they showed up on your front door.
Section 31 wasn't a thing then.
Parenthetically, I've been watching some of Season 2 of Discovery, and I'm annoyed at how much screen time Section 31 gets. It's supposed to be this extremely covert deep cover agency, far from the eyes and ears of anyone in Starfleet, much less anyone in command of starships, and we just have agents on board a Federation ship, in full black leather, operating openly. It strains credibility that they were somehow beneath the notice of everyone for another century.
In a metatextual sense, plot devices like Section 31 ought to be like vanilla extract for a show like Star Trek. Put too much in the recipe and it overwhelms the end product.
In the mind of the writers, but I wasn’t saying it was literally Section 31 but just abstractly something that they would do and thus be the wrong thing.
Sounds like you haven’t finished S2 yet.
Imma just say, I don’t think it’s all that ridiculous if their secret spy service had an incident that maybe messed them up and drove them underground. Also 100 years is a lot of time for things to change as well. IRL secret secret people organizations don’t look or act at all these days like they did 100 years ago, and they won’t look/act the same 100 years from now.
Don't really disagree. I didn't mind conceptually that Disco S1 and 2 used Section 31. And ultimately I'll forgive any excuse used to continue bringing Michelle Yeoh back into the fold. But ultimately I don't think what they did with them in S2 fully worked. But that's mostly because S2 seemed primarily focused first and foremost about three things before all other considerations: 1) addressing fan grievances, 2) being a backdoor pilot for SNW, and 2) getting the show to Season 3.
That's how good they used to be.
Hah, you’re all talking about how bad an idea it was but then Sisko went and did it! Well, at least he thought he did.
I had seen the bit with meeting the Founders before and didn’t realize it happened so soon after we find out much of anything about the Dominion. I didn’t remember the rest of the premise for these eps though which made it a wild ride. Something was definitely off but I didn’t realize until the last moment that it was everything.
So the status quo has changed but not as drastically as I thought it was about to, and we still have time for some more episodics. House of Quark was real good fun, and then in the next ep it was nice to see the Trill homeworld again that I’d already seen out of order in Disco.
I had seen the bit with meeting the Founders before and didn’t realize it happened so soon after we find out much of anything about the Dominion. I didn’t remember the rest of the premise for these eps though which made it a wild ride. Something was definitely off but I didn’t realize until the last moment that it was everything.
So the status quo has changed but not as drastically as I thought it was about to, and we still have time for some more episodics. House of Quark was real good fun, and then in the next ep it was nice to see the Trill homeworld again that I’d already seen out of order in Disco.
Hah, I didn’t know Riker was in this show. Well, kind of. I shouldn’t be surprised knowing how Frakes likes to have his hand in everything. Anyway, that was a rollicking episode. Curious about its fallout in Cardassian politics but this show doesn’t ever really do denouements so that’ll just have to wait for later I suppose.
IIRC that episode aired during the same week that Star Trek: Generations opened in theaters, and was meant to be a kind of tie-in event to promote the movie. In the same way that the TNG episode with Spock was TNG's way of tying in with The Undiscovered Country.
There is not direct political fallout from this specific incident persay (to the frustrations of many angry/silly Star Trek fans who want to know what ever happened to Thomas Riker). But in the way that all through Season 2 they were laying little hints at the impending existence/threat of The Dominion, there was something going on in that nebula that Thomas Riker was right to be suspicious of, that you'll just have to wait and find out what was up with that.
Just got to the Bell Riots. Well. All a bit Too Real right now. Great episodes though.
(Preceding that, the much sillier requisite "some space disease is making everyone hot for each other" episodes. Some of that was... also uncomfortable, in completely different ways.)
(Preceding that, the much sillier requisite "some space disease is making everyone hot for each other" episodes. Some of that was... also uncomfortable, in completely different ways.)
Honestly we’re worse off.
Second mirror universe ep was even more fun than the first - this is the season three one where Sisko gets to pretend to be Mirror Sisko and does a pretty bang-up job of it. Also we get more fun mirror cameos like Dax and Bashir. Good times.
And then we have the one-two punch of Improbably Cause and The Die is Cast. I did suspect the Obsidian Order was up to something vaguely along these lines but didn't know just how far they were going with their first move. Welp, y'all done fucked up now. Great episodes though.
And then we have the one-two punch of Improbably Cause and The Die is Cast. I did suspect the Obsidian Order was up to something vaguely along these lines but didn't know just how far they were going with their first move. Welp, y'all done fucked up now. Great episodes though.
Johnny Unusual
(He/Him)
The Mirror episodes feel like they are written primarily with the promise that the cast is allowed to eat up as much scenery as possible. They aren't the best episodes but I'm just happy everyone seems to be enjoying the madness.
The best Mirror episode in all of Star Trek is the one where Rom is just playing straight-man in the Mirror Universe being like "NONE OF THIS MAKES ANY SENSE" and "THIS PLACE SUCKS" Just utterly delightful