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Remember when Deanna used to call Riker, "Bill"?
Once.

She did that once.
2b6
 

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
So any Star Trek fans here watch any of Roddenberry's other later shows, like Earth Final Conflict or Andromeda?

Are they worth watching? Do they do things ST doesn't or highlight different aspects of the human condition? Or are they just shoddier ST retreads with the serial numbers filed off?
 
Both shows do some interesting things and have very different tones/themes, and are much more pessimistic takes on the future/what interacting with aliens would be like. Both go off rails really hard though after the first season or so.

I don’t know if either show is really worth it. Both felt regressive back when I watched them when they first aired. I haven’t seen them in decades but I’m willing to bet both feel even more regressive now. Earth Final Conflict is about aliens immigrating to Earth, and it wouldn’t take much to do an anti-immigrant read of the show.

Andromeda is probably the main inspiration for Star Trek Discovery S3 - where a Federation-ish ship gets hurled to the future where they have to navigate a post-Federation apocalyptic future. I checked out of that show though because of one key episode:

In this show, there’s a Klingon-ish people that the not!Federation were at war with, and whom the main character has deep resentments over. One key episode, the crew actually finds a way back to their original time, but during a key battle versus these Klingon-ish people. History recorded the not!Federation people somehow winning this key battle that kept the not!Federation from getting conquered by the Klingon-ish people.

The moral conundrum is do they help in the war effort to defeat them. Because this post-apocalyptic future wasn’t brought about by the Klingon-ish people, but via a later invasion of Zerg-like evil demon aliens. If the Andromeda decides to not interfere and let the Klingon-ish people win, then history is actually changed for the better. Because the not!Federation win was a pyrrhic that left both sides too depleted to successfully defend against the not!Zerg. But if the not!Federation lose, then humanity gets taken over as a slave caste, the Klingon-ish people probably pull off a successful defense. Thus, humanity is spared a genocide, they eventually pull of a revolution, and rebuild the not!Federation to be even bigger and better than before. It’s like a reverse Yesterday’s Enterprise scenario.

Except the Kevin Sorbo is like nah, I hate the Klingon-ish people too much to let them win. So he single handedly wipes out the Klingon-ish fleet.

And I’m like. Breh. You let hate win, and as a consequence are now singularly responsible for the genocide of humanity.
And I was done with the show after that.
 
I watched Earth Final Conflict some years ago and found the first season or two interesting. Andromeda is something I could never really get into, despite trying.
 

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
In this show, there’s a Klingon-ish people that the not!Federation were at war with, and whom the main character has deep resentments over. One key episode, the crew actually finds a way back to their original time, but during a key battle versus these Klingon-ish people. History recorded the not!Federation people somehow winning this key battle that kept the not!Federation from getting conquered by the Klingon-ish people.

The moral conundrum is do they help in the war effort to defeat them. Because this post-apocalyptic future wasn’t brought about by the Klingon-ish people, but via a later invasion of Zerg-like evil demon aliens. If the Andromeda decides to not interfere and let the Klingon-ish people win, then history is actually changed for the better. Because the not!Federation win was a pyrrhic that left both sides too depleted to successfully defend against the not!Zerg. But if the not!Federation lose, then humanity gets taken over as a slave caste, the Klingon-ish people probably pull off a successful defense. Thus, humanity is spared a genocide, they eventually pull of a revolution, and rebuild the not!Federation to be even bigger and better than before. It’s like a reverse Yesterday’s Enterprise scenario.

Except the Kevin Sorbo is like nah, I hate the Klingon-ish people too much to let them win. So he single handedly wipes out the Klingon-ish fleet.

And I’m like. Breh. You let hate win, and as a consequence are now singularly responsible for the genocide of humanity.
And I was done with the show after that.
Kevin Sorbo: Always been bad.
 
I started playing the Telltale-ish Star Trek game! Only really did the very beginning sequences, but so far I think this genre is a perfect fit for Star Trek. The game's animations are a little janky and some of the textures a little flat but otherwise it's surprisingly decent looking. I'll report back later as I play more if it's worth doing so.

can't believe I just noticed it

vlcsnap-2023-10-06-09h00m04s869.png
There's subtle easter eggs hidden in most of the other shows franchise-intro-sequence-thing too!
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
So, back in the mid-nineties, I was watching me the hell out of some Babylon 5. Partly because of that, one thing I wasn't doing was watching the hell out of some Deep Space 9. Like, I've seen random episodes here and there in syndication, but way less than I have of TNG or even Voyager. My partner really loves some DS9, though, so we decided to start in on it from the beginning.

And damn, if that isn't a banger of an opening episode. Sure, there's occasional bits where actors are clearly still feeling their way into new roles as you'd expect for any Ep1. And of course the presence of Picard and a few other returning guests doesn't hurt. But on the whole it really rollicks along, laying down a metric ton of foundations for the big arcs and characters of the series. Seriously just so much happens in this ep, and most of it's pretty interesting.

Anyway, I'm in. The next few eps quickly revert to much more standard star-trek-of-the-week type stuff, but they're all still a pretty decent trekky time so far.

One thing that seems a little inadequately touched on so far is just what people are finding on the other side of the new wormhole. Like, it's established that the whole reason DS9 is suddenly a hot commodity both strategically for various powers and in terms of commerce and science is that it's sudden access to a whole other quadrant of the galaxy, which makes sense. But several episodes in, absolutely nothing has been said about what people are actually finding over there. I know eventually we run into the Dominion that way, but I assume that doesn't ramp up for a good while yet. I'm just surprised there haven't been more hints about what's going down in Gamma.
 

Johnny Unusual

(He/Him)
The next few eps quickly revert to much more standard star-trek-of-the-week type stuff, but they're all still a pretty decent trekky time so far.
It eventually becomes the most serialized Trek at that point. The first couple seasons are a bit hit and miss but it eventually hits a very high hit rate.
One thing that seems a little inadequately touched on so far is just what people are finding on the other side of the new wormhole. Like, it's established that the whole reason DS9 is suddenly a hot commodity both strategically for various powers and in terms of commerce and science is that it's sudden access to a whole other quadrant of the galaxy, which makes sense. But several episodes in, absolutely nothing has been said about what people are actually finding over there. I know eventually we run into the Dominion that way, but I assume that doesn't ramp up for a good while yet. I'm just surprised there haven't been more hints about what's going down in Gamma.

Yeah, it's going to be a wait before we really get to that stuff.
 
Paramount announced it's producing a new Star Trek movie:


A new movie in addition to Star Trek 4 that's been stuck in development hell.

This new movie is going to be directed by one of the primary directors for Andor, Toby Haynes. The guy who directed the first three episodes, as well as the prison break arc of the show.

The script is going to be penned by Seth Graham-Smith, a guy best known for writing the novels "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies", "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Slayer", "The Lego Batman Movie", and "The Hard Times of RJ Berger".

All we know about the film is that it's, "...an origin story that takes place decades before the 2009 Star Trek film that rebooted the franchise" - for whatever that means.

I don't really know how to feel about this, but I'll be paying attention to see what comes of this regardless.
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
Pretty sure I remember seeing the title in some best-of discussions so it comes as no surprise that DS9 ep “Duet” was really really good. One of those eps that’s almost no action, all talking, but just kills it.
 
Kira gets some of the best episodes in DS9, because her character is in an inherently interesting/fascinating position of having at one time been a terrorist/freedom fighter, and now she has to adjust to the realities of being A Part of the System and seeing the moral complexities of the world when things are no longer as simple as Cardies = bad. She probably has the best character development arc in the franchise, in spite of the fact they felt the need to pair her up with a rotating cast of bland men. Especially when those episodes/plotlines were easily among some of the worst in the show. Also, every time people praise the writers of DS9, I remember the fact that at one point the same writers wanted to have her be in a relationship with Gul Dukat, and Nana Visitor had to go apeshit to shut that idea down.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Yeah, even with the great female characters in newer Trek shows, Kira might still be my favorite. And one of my favorite characters in the franchise, period. So multilayered, so much fire, so much strength.

And yeah, her relationships are by far the worst part about her part on the show, without her fault. It's crazy, that there is this character with such a rich background and personality, but she is a woman, so we have to do boring romance nonsense.

Especially that they made her nice friendship with Odo into a romantic thing. Adding romantic drama bullshit (to be fair, I forgot if there was drana, I don't remember the details of that part) and just doing the whole "they are man and woman, they are very close, so the guy can't not be romantically interested" was very disappointing. I love their friendship.
 
When I do my regular, cyclical rewatch of the franchise, I never skip an episode.

But I think long and hard about passing over DS9 S4E18: "Hard Time" -- you know, the apex O'Brien Must Suffer episode. It's just like... hard to watch. For whatever reason, it's way harder to watch than a similar scenario like Chain of Command. Probably because O'Brien is just a regular dude versus Picard being this titan of a figure where you assume his willpower will always triumph. And unlike Chain of Command, there's no release or moment of triumph like Picard gets at the end. Seeing Miles humbled and broken is just emotionally exhausting.
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
DS9 updates, part way through S2:

I'm surprised at how much I'm enjoying Quark episodes. Both Rules of Aquisition and Profit and Loss were standouts, plus they actually have more intriguing bits of meta-plot in them than most episodes. Also it doesn't hurt that sometimes Vizzini is there being Vizzini. In other S2 episodes, the Bajoran coup at the beginning kind of dragged, I thought, but Second Sight and Shadowplay were fun. Paradise was a bit on-the-nose, and Whispers seemed like it might be an intriguing look at what it's like to have a paranoia disorder (I thought maybe OBrien had caught a paranoia virus or something) but the truth turned out turned out to be much more contrived and kind of undermined that reading.

Meanwhile we keep hearing gradually more rumblings about the Dominion, and just glancing ahead at episode titles it looks like we're gonna ramp up that stuff for real by the end of the season.
 
the Bajoran coup at the beginning kind of dragged, I thought
I think there's a reason why there was never a three-part story ever again in DS9 or VOY (Ending of DS9 excluded.) That three parter was not great and also probably burned off a lot of DS9's tenuous viewership.

Meanwhile we keep hearing gradually more rumblings about the Dominion, and just glancing ahead at episode titles it looks like we're gonna ramp up that stuff for real by the end of the season.
Enjoy these first three seasons while you have them. I know it's common ethos to think that DS9 doesn't get good until after that. But the mood of the show really takes a hard pivot once it starts becoming a war drama almost exclusively. It's still a good show, but it's honestly kind of exhausting imo. I'm definitely in the minority, but as someone who relatively frequently rewatches the show, I prefer early DS9 because of it.
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
Oh yeah, I'm enjoying the very old-trek-y episodic bits just fine, despite sometimes being eager for some nibbles of overarching plot and character arc continuations.

Speaking of character arcs, The Wire was our meatiest bit of Garak-building to date and pretty great, though since he and everyone associated with him lie pretty much all the time it's still hard to get a real handle on him. But that's fine since the lies are especially true.

Before that we had some more fleshing out of the local setting with The Maquis, which was fine, but I was definitely glad they kept it to a two-parter this time. And after, some mirror-universe shenanigans in Crossover which was pretty fun - only Nana and Avery *really* got to flex their wildly-alternate-take on the character chops, but they were great.
 

Exposition Owl

more posts about buildings and food
(he/him/his)
And after, some mirror-universe shenanigans in Crossover which was pretty fun - only Nana and Avery *really* got to flex their wildly-alternate-take on the character chops, but they were great.

Oh yeah. Mirror Sisko is terrifying.
 
Avery Brooks’s ability to chew on the scenery and just really command a scene is unrivaled in the franchise, and that’s saying a LOT.

I know some people are not a fan of DS9’s Mirror Universe episodes, or that setting in general. But I love em. Simply because it’s just so much fun to watch the actors break character and just go ham. They always look like they’re having the time of their lives, and that just makes me happy.
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
We're nowhere near the "O'Brien must suffer" episode Wist was complaining about, but he's sure not having a good time in Tribunal either. What is it about the guy that just attracts horrible fates.

Anyway, then we hit Jem'Hadar and shit suddenly gets real. I love how Avery Brooks manages to convey that even while Sisko is handling things in a generally calm and in-control manner, you can tell that just behind the facade of command he's thinking "ohhhhhhh fuck we in trouble now". The ep does a generally good job of suddenly pivoting the Dominion from "vaguely menacing mystery" to "immediate existential threat". It's a more grounded threat too than something weird and alien like the Borg - these are just some unabashedly aggressive dudes that seem to have significantly better tech than us.

My wife (who's seen the whole show before) commented on the episode that this is where they should have just immediately grabbed anyone they could back from Gamma in a full-scale retreat and tried to do anything possible to seal the wormhole. Which, given what I know of what's to come, does kinda seem sensible.
 
What is it about the guy that just attracts horrible fates.
The writers picked on him because it’s more interesting to watch an ordinary person undergo pain and suffering, vs the rest of the cast that’s a bunch of perfect super people.

My wife (who's seen the whole show before) commented on the episode that this is where they should have just immediately grabbed anyone they could back from Gamma in a full-scale retreat and tried to do anything possible to seal the wormhole. Which, given what I know of what's to come, does kinda seem sensible.
Eh. That’s Section 31 style thinking. The UFP shouldn’t be dissuaded from their raison d'etre because they lost one fight.
 

Exposition Owl

more posts about buildings and food
(he/him/his)
The writers picked on him because it’s more interesting to watch an ordinary person undergo pain and suffering, vs the rest of the cast that’s a bunch of perfect super people.

I’m sure the fact that Colm Meaney’s such a good actor was a factor, too.
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
Eh. That’s Section 31 style thinking. The UFP shouldn’t be dissuaded from their raison d'etre because they lost one fight.
I mean, I could see arguments both ways. Sure, isolationist turtling is against their charter, but they do also have a responsibility to protect their current member civilizations and allies, and more time to prepare against an obviously belligerent, expansionist, conquering force with evidently superior firepower seems like a useful option. Ofc, we have no idea if it's even possible to seal the wormhole (or what effect that could have on the prophet-aliens living their, though with their whole nonlinear time deal they know all of what's happening anyway so not much point trying to second-guess their needs or wants I guess).
 
they do also have a responsibility to protect their current member civilizations and allies, and more time to prepare against an obviously belligerent, expansionist, conquering force with evidently superior firepower seems like a useful option.
The problem with this logic and the solution outlined by your wife is that even if you prioritized defense above everything, turtling against an aggressive, belligerent, expansionist force is probably the worst thing you could do. In order to mount a good defense, you need to know what you're defending against. Which would require further study and engagement. You need to be proactive about searching for threats and evaluating them. Otherwise, you'll just see a repeat of that engagement where you get caught with your pants down and btfo'd. If they shut down the Wormhole, that wouldn't have ended a hypothetical threat from the Dominion. Just delayed it until the two eventually expanded into each other much further down the line. And without keeping tabs on them in the intermediate, you could find yourself in an even worse situation as a result. Think how boned the Earth was in Macross II - where these super-Zentradi show up out of nowhere at Earth's front door, and there's no buffer or grace period left because you weren't proactive about searching the galaxy and learning about threats before they showed up on your front door.
 

Büge

Arm Candy
(she/her)
Eh. That’s Section 31 style thinking.
Section 31 wasn't a thing then.

Parenthetically, I've been watching some of Season 2 of Discovery, and I'm annoyed at how much screen time Section 31 gets. It's supposed to be this extremely covert deep cover agency, far from the eyes and ears of anyone in Starfleet, much less anyone in command of starships, and we just have agents on board a Federation ship, in full black leather, operating openly. It strains credibility that they were somehow beneath the notice of everyone for another century.

In a metatextual sense, plot devices like Section 31 ought to be like vanilla extract for a show like Star Trek. Put too much in the recipe and it overwhelms the end product.
 
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