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The Human Adventure Continues: Talking About Star Trek

Lower Decks is back with... A pretty ok episode with some good jokes. I still find Mariner a bit obnoxious, but the joke around that was solid "does this make me a bad person?"
"You're the worst person!"

Anyway! Glad it's back!
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
I really dislike a lot of mid-DS9's attempts to humanize and make a sympathetic character out of Gul Dukat. The guy was literally Space Hitler! I don't want to like him! I'm fine with him being a super villain at the end of the show because moustache twirling is when he was at his best and when I was most comfortable with him. IMO his whole arc played out like the writers weren't exactly comfortable with fans liking or identifying the character and decided to just get really heavy handed with reminding the audience hey, this guy is a BAD dude, you're supposed to hate him.
I couldn't disagree much harder with this. Real evil people don't gnaw on babies like their fictional equivalents. They can be really personable and likeable, even. Maybe if our villains were more realistic we'd be better at recognising real life villains. Like with the Krays, a more unpleasant pair of shits you are unlikely to meet. You'll commonly hear "but they were lovely to their mum". Like that has any bearing.
 
Real evil people don't gnaw on babies like their fictional equivalents. They can be really personable and likeable, even. Maybe if our villains were more realistic we'd be better at recognising real life villains.
We spent decades telling the world Lex Luthor was a transparent, 1:1 analog of Donald Trump. There was even a high profile story about Luthor becoming president. And what happened there? So I don't buy that argument.

Meanwhile, there is apparently a sizable chunk of the Star Trek fandom that are racist, sexist, fascist creeps. So every time Star Trek can overtly tell them to fuck off, the better.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
No, Gul Dukat was a fascinating monster. He genuinely believed he was in the right, despite the horrendous things he did. I'd sooner not make something more one dimensional and stupid so that morons with no media awareness or ability for self reflection can continue to miss the point. Because they will. Look at the Star Wars fandom, it's much more blatant in its message, and still people who profess to love it pull out all of the wrong messages.

Also Luthor is nothing like Trump. He's rich, I guess? But his super power is being a genius so there goes that analogue.
 
I'm ok with him burning for eternity in a timeless hell prison with his false gods who are undoubtedly annoying af to have to talk to. Do you want Hitler to live a life of humility as an anonymous vagrant but have gone otherwise unpunished for his heinous crimes? Or to burn in the fires of hell until the end of time?

Also Luthor is nothing like Trump. He's rich, I guess? But his super power is being a genius so there goes that analogue.
 
Sure - but we don't know if that is what it's like or if he just died right then. Likewise, we don't really know that the Pah Wraiths are evil aside from Dukat throwing down with them. They are just as unknowable as the Prophets, who are also annoying. The celestial temple isn't really heaven, but a perplexing nullness outside the the 3rd dimension, non-linear time.

WHAT I DO KNOW IS - helpless Dukat stuck on Bajor unable to do shit. His boundless ego and sense of entitlement would be his tortures as he is set adrift.
 

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
He would weasel his way into a scheme one way or another. Within a week he’d have a gang of orphans or a wealthy widow at his beck & call.
 
Sure - but we don't know if that is what it's like or if he just died right then.
Literally right after that scene, when Sisko is talking to the Prophets he asks about what happened to Dukat and they respond that he's hangin' out with them now forever. We've got no reason to believe they're lying to Sisko or the show is lying to the viewer.

Likewise, we don't really know that the Pah Wraiths are evil aside from Dukat throwing down with them.
You're forgetting the episode where a Pah Wraith took over Keiko's body, and extorted Miles into helping her commit genocide by threatening to murder his wife and child.
 
Well, if a Pah Wraith can enter the corporeal world by using a human as a vessel, it seems logical to assume that Gul Dukat could do the same. Novels based on Deep Space Nine suggest that Sisko can leave the wormhole with his original body, so it's entirely possible that the two could battle again at some point in the future. (I mean, the future's future.)

I'll be honest, though. The ending of Deep Space Nine nailed that coffin firmly shut, and I'm not sure I'd want it re-opened. Half the cast is gone and the Dominion War is over. What else is left? The books continue the saga, but with a bunch of new characters (and Ro Laren from Next Gen), and even the damned station has been destroyed, replaced with some bulbous monstrosity that looks like it came from the cover of a 1950s science fiction magazine. That ain't Deep Space Nine to me. As far as I'm concerned, it's over.
 
Literally right after that scene, when Sisko is talking to the Prophets he asks about what happened to Dukat and they respond that he's hangin' out with them now forever. We've got no reason to believe they're lying to Sisko or the show is lying to the viewer.


You're forgetting the episode where a Pah Wraith took over Keiko's body, and extorted Miles into helping her commit genocide by threatening to murder his wife and child.
I find the prophets to be Obi Won level point of view truth tellers. They also possessed Sarah to procreate with Sisko's dad. When that objective was accomplished she bailed as soon as she could. That's fucked up.

@ArugulaZ - I don't want more. Just fun to think about. I remember watching the doc, when they are trying to break season 8 premiere. It was an interesting exercise, but it was like: eww, no
 

Büge

Arm Candy
(she/her)
You're forgetting the episode where a Pah Wraith took over Keiko's body, and extorted Miles into helping her commit genocide by threatening to murder his wife and child.
Also that time a Pah-Wraith possessed Jake and had a laser duel with a Prophet-possesed Kira.
 
I find the prophets to be Obi Won level point of view truth tellers. They also possessed Sarah to procreate with Sisko's dad. When that objective was accomplished she bailed as soon as she could. That's fucked up.
One side messed with a guy's family (though generally left them well off and prosperous) temporarily in order to ensure both their survival and the survival of the Alpha Quadrant. The other side tried to commit murder and genocide repeatedly. I don't really find the comparison/equivocation very compelling.

Also that time a Pah-Wraith possessed Jake and had a laser duel with a Prophet-possesed Kira.
I didn't exactly mention that one because that one was intentionally trying to obfuscate the morality involved. Two incomprehensible cosmic forces dueling each other without much context, mostly just to show the strain on the innocent little people caught in between. It might even be where chud got their overall impression of moral ambiguity on the side of the Prophets. But it's not exactly enough to tip the scales IMO when the body of evidence otherwise shows the Prophets as being benevolent and helpful, versus the Pah-Wraiths continually being amoral and destructive in nature.
 
I don't think I've ever heard a Star Trek theme with such a strident, adventurous tone, with the possible exception of Next Generation. DS9 was more quiet and dignified, with a sense of stability that reflected the station's fixed position in space. Voyager's theme had a sense of curiosity and wonderment that fit with the ship cruising through uncharted territory. Enterprise had... uh, what sounded like a Rod Stewart song. Judging from this music, Prodigy gives me the impression that it's going to be balls to the wall action from start to finish.
 
Judging from this music, Prodigy gives me the impression that it's going to be balls to the wall action from start to finish.
To me it sounded more like youthful exuberance, tempered with purpose. Which would fit the stated M.O. of the show. I'm sure there'll be plenty of action because it's a kid's show. But ya. Anyways I like it! Also,

I don't think I've ever heard a Star Trek theme with such a strident, adventurous tone, with the possible exception of Next Generation.
I assume you're talking about just the TV shows and not the films? Because Goldsmith and James Horner both have this beat on "strident, adventerous tone" in most of their films. And Michael Giacchino's theme song for the reboot films blows everything else away in that department.
 
It's a fair interpretation. As for your other point, I haven't watched the Star Trek movies in a while, but I'm probably due for another viewing of Wrath of Khan (taking care to cover my eyes at the earworm part). I do recall that the Next Generation theme was pretty much lifted from the first Star Trek movie that nobody seemed to like.
 

Sprite

(He/Him/His)
I like that, while a lot of Star Trek openings emphasize how huge ships are, this one goes out of its way to show how tiny the Protostar is compared to the immensity of space (and, I assume, other ships).
 
It's a pretty small ship. Maybe only slightly bigger than a Runabout? Like, you can see in other pictures and in the opening that the bridge is a sizable chunk of the 'saucer' section. To the point where you can make out details of the bridge through the canopy.

I think it's fun that when the ship gets into gear, the nacelles do a reverse-Voyager where they lower downward. That weird rocket engine like thing that transforms out of the back is odd; I'll be curious about how that works.

The registry number for this ship is still in the 70Ks, like Voyager and a lot of the TNG/DS9/VOY era ships. But hasn't hit the 80Ks yet like the USS Titan. So it'll be interesting to see where this ship came from and what its story is.

I like the openings visuals a whole lot. It seems like they're doing the DIS thing where they abstract the visuals by blending space things with not-so-space things. If you look carefully, most of the main characters show up in the opening but they're blended very well so they look like cosmological things, a lot more than DIS managed. And the emphasis on the ship itself is nice for someone like myself who delights in ship-porn (which has been one of the actual more disappointing parts of nuTrek is the relative dearth of good ship-porn).
 
"Star Trek Day" was yesterday (P+ used the anniversary of TOS first airing to do a weird convention-style presentation to both pat themselves on the back and stir up publicity for its new Star Trek projects in a post-ComicCon world) and they dropped a bunch of trailers in the process. So we got:

The first substantial look at Star Trek: Prodigy

An introduction to the main/supporting cast of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

A mid-season hype trailer for Season 2 of Star Trek: Lower Decks

And the first substancial look at Season 2 of Star Trek: Picard

The event itself was predictably painful and frequently embarrassing, but the trailers were all great! I'm lookin' forward to all of this. Weird that DIS S4 didn't get any trailers, but we did get a date for the premier: November 18th.

I assume these youtube videos are region locked, but EDIT: here's some twitter links to the trailers that ought to work internationally:

 
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SpoonyBard

A Bard Named SPOONY
(He/Him)
That shot at the end of the Lower Decks teaser of a Crystalline Entity is just the sort of call back I love this series for.
 
Yep! Other things I can't wait to see more of:
Haphazardously stored cargo containers falling over and maybe hitting crew members.
Rutherford in a TOS-Film era engineering outfit trying to get into a Constitution Refit Warpcore
The Sequoia Shuttlecraft's continuing deevolution into a pile of scrap
Whatever caused that late 23rd Century Constitution Class ship to blow up
Whatever those characters were doing running down the hallways wearing Deanna & Bev's workout spandex
I guess we're getting a Borg episode and a Mirror Universe episode???
 
A thought, regarding Prodigy. You think they'll ever reach a point where the emergency training program gains sapience and has an existential crisis about looking, sounding, and acting just like Janeway, but not really being Janeway?
 

Tegan

dirtbag lesbian
(She/Her)
I finished TNG the other day and was really sad to see it go. Not really in a mood to articulate right now but this has been an awful year for me and Star Trek has been really uplifting.

Anyway, watching the movies now. I love that the climax of Star Trek: Generations involves Captain Picard breaking Captain Kirk out of heaven to do what he does best: fistfight a guy in a rock quarry.
 
I finished TNG the other day and was really sad to see it go. Not really in a mood to articulate right now but this has been an awful year for me and Star Trek has been really uplifting.

Anyway, watching the movies now. I love that the climax of Star Trek: Generations involves Captain Picard breaking Captain Kirk out of heaven to do what he does best: fistfight a guy in a rock quarry.
The more I reflect on the TNG movies over the years, the more I end up liking them. As you say, when you think about it, they're extremely Trek in the funnest of ways. Well, except Nemesis. The ideas of that movie were solid but oh man the execution was so bad that it basically killed the franchise. Not even Tom Hardy can keep me from resenting it.

A thought, regarding Prodigy. You think they'll ever reach a point where the emergency training program gains sapience and has an existential crisis about looking, sounding, and acting just like Janeway, but not really being Janeway?
Seems a little heavy for a kids show. Also doesn't really fit the role this holo-Janeway is gonna fill as the matronly teacher who guides her flock. The Doctor had plenty of internal crises but they were never centered around his identity as a replica of a real person, even in the episode where he had to meet that person face-to-face. And assuming holo-Janeway's personality is more or less a carbon copy of the real deal, real Janeway is such a stone cold badass she'd never suffer those kinds of problems. Janeway's inner struggles came in three basic flavors, listed in increasing severity:

1) I'm mildly sad that I have no love life.
2) I'm very annoyed at whatever bullshit I have to put up with this week.
3) I am fully and solely responsible for 140 people who are family to me, and them even being in this shitty situation to begin with. I have to make sure they get home safe even if it kills me.

That last one is what really makes the character for me, and probably makes her my favorite Captain at this point in the franchise. It drives me crazy when certain people whine about how she's a poorly written and inconsistent character. Those people aren't watching Star Trek: Voyager. Literally everything Janeway does, is informed by that inner motivation/struggle of the guilt of marooning these people she loves, and her determination to get them home. Sometimes that may lead her to coming close to compromising her values when things get tough, but that struggle and imperfection is interesting and compelling to me rather than frustrating and off-putting. And her growth as a captain, who learns when and how she can cut corners or bend the rules is one of her character arcs for the breadth of the show. Mama Janeway is gonna protect her pack no matter what.



I do think though that at some point late in the show holo-Janeway will probably sacrifice herself heroically for sads because there's still the real Janeway out there, so it's not like they're actually killing off Janeway forever.
 

zonetrope

(he/him)
Janeway is best captain and Kate Mulgrew is best captain performance.

The VOY episode Course: Oblivion kinda hits on the same themes you were talking about, Arugula, though it's much bleaker than anything that would probably show up on Prodigy.
 
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