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The Human Adventure Continues: Talking About Star Trek

ArugulaZ

ArugulaZ

Fearful asymmetry
Well, if a Pah Wraith can enter the corporeal world by using a human as a vessel, it seems logical to assume that Gul Dukat could do the same. Novels based on Deep Space Nine suggest that Sisko can leave the wormhole with his original body, so it's entirely possible that the two could battle again at some point in the future. (I mean, the future's future.)

I'll be honest, though. The ending of Deep Space Nine nailed that coffin firmly shut, and I'm not sure I'd want it re-opened. Half the cast is gone and the Dominion War is over. What else is left? The books continue the saga, but with a bunch of new characters (and Ro Laren from Next Gen), and even the damned station has been destroyed, replaced with some bulbous monstrosity that looks like it came from the cover of a 1950s science fiction magazine. That ain't Deep Space Nine to me. As far as I'm concerned, it's over.
 
chud_666

chud_666

WisteriaHysteria said:
Literally right after that scene, when Sisko is talking to the Prophets he asks about what happened to Dukat and they respond that he's hangin' out with them now forever. We've got no reason to believe they're lying to Sisko or the show is lying to the viewer.


You're forgetting the episode where a Pah Wraith took over Keiko's body, and extorted Miles into helping her commit genocide by threatening to murder his wife and child.
Click to expand...
I find the prophets to be Obi Won level point of view truth tellers. They also possessed Sarah to procreate with Sisko's dad. When that objective was accomplished she bailed as soon as she could. That's fucked up.

@ArugulaZ - I don't want more. Just fun to think about. I remember watching the doc, when they are trying to break season 8 premiere. It was an interesting exercise, but it was like: eww, no
 
Büge

Büge

Arm Candy
(she/her)
WisteriaHysteria said:
You're forgetting the episode where a Pah Wraith took over Keiko's body, and extorted Miles into helping her commit genocide by threatening to murder his wife and child.
Click to expand...
Also that time a Pah-Wraith possessed Jake and had a laser duel with a Prophet-possesed Kira.
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

chud_666 said:
I find the prophets to be Obi Won level point of view truth tellers. They also possessed Sarah to procreate with Sisko's dad. When that objective was accomplished she bailed as soon as she could. That's fucked up.
Click to expand...
One side messed with a guy's family (though generally left them well off and prosperous) temporarily in order to ensure both their survival and the survival of the Alpha Quadrant. The other side tried to commit murder and genocide repeatedly. I don't really find the comparison/equivocation very compelling.

Büge said:
Also that time a Pah-Wraith possessed Jake and had a laser duel with a Prophet-possesed Kira.
Click to expand...
I didn't exactly mention that one because that one was intentionally trying to obfuscate the morality involved. Two incomprehensible cosmic forces dueling each other without much context, mostly just to show the strain on the innocent little people caught in between. It might even be where chud got their overall impression of moral ambiguity on the side of the Prophets. But it's not exactly enough to tip the scales IMO when the body of evidence otherwise shows the Prophets as being benevolent and helpful, versus the Pah-Wraiths continually being amoral and destructive in nature.
 
ArugulaZ

ArugulaZ

Fearful asymmetry
I don't think I've ever heard a Star Trek theme with such a strident, adventurous tone, with the possible exception of Next Generation. DS9 was more quiet and dignified, with a sense of stability that reflected the station's fixed position in space. Voyager's theme had a sense of curiosity and wonderment that fit with the ship cruising through uncharted territory. Enterprise had... uh, what sounded like a Rod Stewart song. Judging from this music, Prodigy gives me the impression that it's going to be balls to the wall action from start to finish.
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

ArugulaZ said:
Judging from this music, Prodigy gives me the impression that it's going to be balls to the wall action from start to finish.
Click to expand...
To me it sounded more like youthful exuberance, tempered with purpose. Which would fit the stated M.O. of the show. I'm sure there'll be plenty of action because it's a kid's show. But ya. Anyways I like it! Also,

ArugulaZ said:
I don't think I've ever heard a Star Trek theme with such a strident, adventurous tone, with the possible exception of Next Generation.
Click to expand...
I assume you're talking about just the TV shows and not the films? Because Goldsmith and James Horner both have this beat on "strident, adventerous tone" in most of their films. And Michael Giacchino's theme song for the reboot films blows everything else away in that department.
 
ArugulaZ

ArugulaZ

Fearful asymmetry
It's a fair interpretation. As for your other point, I haven't watched the Star Trek movies in a while, but I'm probably due for another viewing of Wrath of Khan (taking care to cover my eyes at the earworm part). I do recall that the Next Generation theme was pretty much lifted from the first Star Trek movie that nobody seemed to like.
 
Sprite

Sprite

(He/Him/His)
I like that, while a lot of Star Trek openings emphasize how huge ships are, this one goes out of its way to show how tiny the Protostar is compared to the immensity of space (and, I assume, other ships).
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

It's a pretty small ship. Maybe only slightly bigger than a Runabout? Like, you can see in other pictures and in the opening that the bridge is a sizable chunk of the 'saucer' section. To the point where you can make out details of the bridge through the canopy.

I think it's fun that when the ship gets into gear, the nacelles do a reverse-Voyager where they lower downward. That weird rocket engine like thing that transforms out of the back is odd; I'll be curious about how that works.

The registry number for this ship is still in the 70Ks, like Voyager and a lot of the TNG/DS9/VOY era ships. But hasn't hit the 80Ks yet like the USS Titan. So it'll be interesting to see where this ship came from and what its story is.

I like the openings visuals a whole lot. It seems like they're doing the DIS thing where they abstract the visuals by blending space things with not-so-space things. If you look carefully, most of the main characters show up in the opening but they're blended very well so they look like cosmological things, a lot more than DIS managed. And the emphasis on the ship itself is nice for someone like myself who delights in ship-porn (which has been one of the actual more disappointing parts of nuTrek is the relative dearth of good ship-porn).
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

"Star Trek Day" was yesterday (P+ used the anniversary of TOS first airing to do a weird convention-style presentation to both pat themselves on the back and stir up publicity for its new Star Trek projects in a post-ComicCon world) and they dropped a bunch of trailers in the process. So we got:

The first substantial look at Star Trek: Prodigy

An introduction to the main/supporting cast of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

A mid-season hype trailer for Season 2 of Star Trek: Lower Decks

And the first substancial look at Season 2 of Star Trek: Picard

The event itself was predictably painful and frequently embarrassing, but the trailers were all great! I'm lookin' forward to all of this. Weird that DIS S4 didn't get any trailers, but we did get a date for the premier: November 18th.

I assume these youtube videos are region locked, but EDIT: here's some twitter links to the trailers that ought to work internationally:

LDS S2:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435798263769153541
PIC S2:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435807610234568710
SNW:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435784410331185154
PRO:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435771847807627264
 
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SpoonyBard

SpoonyBard

Threat Rhyme
(He/Him)
That shot at the end of the Lower Decks teaser of a Crystalline Entity is just the sort of call back I love this series for.
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

Yep! Other things I can't wait to see more of:
Haphazardously stored cargo containers falling over and maybe hitting crew members.
Rutherford in a TOS-Film era engineering outfit trying to get into a Constitution Refit Warpcore
The Sequoia Shuttlecraft's continuing deevolution into a pile of scrap
Whatever caused that late 23rd Century Constitution Class ship to blow up
Whatever those characters were doing running down the hallways wearing Deanna & Bev's workout spandex
I guess we're getting a Borg episode and a Mirror Universe episode???
 
ArugulaZ

ArugulaZ

Fearful asymmetry
A thought, regarding Prodigy. You think they'll ever reach a point where the emergency training program gains sapience and has an existential crisis about looking, sounding, and acting just like Janeway, but not really being Janeway?
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

Tegan said:
I finished TNG the other day and was really sad to see it go. Not really in a mood to articulate right now but this has been an awful year for me and Star Trek has been really uplifting.

Anyway, watching the movies now. I love that the climax of Star Trek: Generations involves Captain Picard breaking Captain Kirk out of heaven to do what he does best: fistfight a guy in a rock quarry.
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The more I reflect on the TNG movies over the years, the more I end up liking them. As you say, when you think about it, they're extremely Trek in the funnest of ways. Well, except Nemesis. The ideas of that movie were solid but oh man the execution was so bad that it basically killed the franchise. Not even Tom Hardy can keep me from resenting it.

ArugulaZ said:
A thought, regarding Prodigy. You think they'll ever reach a point where the emergency training program gains sapience and has an existential crisis about looking, sounding, and acting just like Janeway, but not really being Janeway?
Click to expand...
Seems a little heavy for a kids show. Also doesn't really fit the role this holo-Janeway is gonna fill as the matronly teacher who guides her flock. The Doctor had plenty of internal crises but they were never centered around his identity as a replica of a real person, even in the episode where he had to meet that person face-to-face. And assuming holo-Janeway's personality is more or less a carbon copy of the real deal, real Janeway is such a stone cold badass she'd never suffer those kinds of problems. Janeway's inner struggles came in three basic flavors, listed in increasing severity:

1) I'm mildly sad that I have no love life.
2) I'm very annoyed at whatever bullshit I have to put up with this week.
3) I am fully and solely responsible for 140 people who are family to me, and them even being in this shitty situation to begin with. I have to make sure they get home safe even if it kills me.

That last one is what really makes the character for me, and probably makes her my favorite Captain at this point in the franchise. It drives me crazy when certain people whine about how she's a poorly written and inconsistent character. Those people aren't watching Star Trek: Voyager. Literally everything Janeway does, is informed by that inner motivation/struggle of the guilt of marooning these people she loves, and her determination to get them home. Sometimes that may lead her to coming close to compromising her values when things get tough, but that struggle and imperfection is interesting and compelling to me rather than frustrating and off-putting. And her growth as a captain, who learns when and how she can cut corners or bend the rules is one of her character arcs for the breadth of the show. Mama Janeway is gonna protect her pack no matter what.

9mc1a1z_d.webp


I do think though that at some point late in the show holo-Janeway will probably sacrifice herself heroically for sads because there's still the real Janeway out there, so it's not like they're actually killing off Janeway forever.
 
zonetrope

zonetrope

(he/him)
Janeway is best captain and Kate Mulgrew is best captain performance.

The VOY episode Course: Oblivion kinda hits on the same themes you were talking about, Arugula, though it's much bleaker than anything that would probably show up on Prodigy.
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

zonetrope said:
The VOY episode Course: Oblivion kinda hits on the same themes you were talking about, Arugula, though it's much bleaker than anything that would probably show up on Prodigy.
Click to expand...
That was an interesting episode but full of Bryan Fullerisms. The thing about it though is that while most of the crew has an identity crisis and are filled with doubts, copy-Janeway is the only one who doesn't. She stubbornly to a fault, insists on continuing their mission of getting everyone home to Earth. She doesn't care that she's a copy, she just cares about getting her people home. And when the rest of the crew convince her that Earth is probably unattainable and that it isn't even really their real home, she doesn't give in to despair or sheds her identity, she merely shifts the goals a little. From getting home to Earth, to getting home to the Demon planet.
 
Purple

Purple

(She/Her)
So talking to some people just now, Profit & Lace came up. The terrible Deep Space 9 episode that everyone hates. And it hit me that, OK, it's still absolutely a terrible episode, but there is a redeeming quality to it, technically! One of those things I see people mutter about now and then is that while Star Trek has always been very good at showing how here in the enlightened future, there is no racism at all, you basically never see anyone who's visibly queer or wears glasses (Geordi aside) or needs a cane or a wheelchair (Captain Pike aside) and sometimes you have to wonder about that whole "eugenics war" in the backstory and how that actually turned out.

But then you have this episode, and part way through it, off camera, presumably we have this exchange:
"Hey, Dr. Bashir, I need a quick gender transition-"
"Yes done."
"Wait, really? I mean, it's for a zany scheme."
"Yeah no whatever, let's freakin' go. I'll squeeze you in before kayacking with O'Brien."
"I don't need like, to forge a letter from a therapist or anything?"
"On the table. We're doin' this."

So OK. Maybe not the best possible answer, but we do have an answer there. We've just got a really really intensively enthusiastic health care system. You want something done? You're getting it done within the hour. So that's nice?
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

Profit & Lace is symptomatic of a broader trend of Trek from that era where these episodes meant well, but they sure were ignorant/naive in their execution. The whole shoe on the other foot method of exploring a social matter is a good Baby's First Lesson In Empathy, but it's also potentially very alienating to anyone not the target demo, and is also easy for bad faith parties to misconstrue the lessons here.

I don't hate Profit & Lace like many people do, mostly because I'm not particularly bothered by Quark having not learned anything at the end of his journey that episode. Quark is not a good person we should be rooting for, so it never really felt like a betrayal to me. The way the episode plays it for laughs (among the other sexual harassment scenarios it depicts) though is regrettably dismissive and inappropriate however.
 
Purple

Purple

(She/Her)
Honestly I'm totally fine with playing it for laughs, but if you're gonna do that, the jokes need to not be eye-rollingly bad. But for real, hey, think about it. Instant on demand same day no questions asked deluxe package medical transition canonically exists in the setting now. That's something?
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

Oh sure. Medicine in the 24th Century is nuts. They can turn people into spiders and salamanders and back and be no worse for the wear; having your gender changed is probably child's play and the kind of stuff med students do in their first year.
 
chud_666

chud_666

WisteriaHysteria said:
Oh sure. Medicine in the 24th Century is nuts. They can turn people into spiders and salamanders and back and be no worse for the wear; having your gender changed is probably child's play and the kind of stuff med students do in their first year.
Click to expand...
Not to mention half of all cardassians have been surgically altered to look like some other species for long deep cons. No bone shaving like for Ash Tyler either!
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

Over the last few days, I've been watching the recent 4K remasters of the first four original films that came out recently:

91ASUzuGpVL._SL1500_.jpg


It doesn't appear to me that they rebuilt the films from the ground up using dailies like they did with TNG that I had hoped they would. (Though that still remains a distinct possibility for the upcoming 4K remaster of the TMP Director's Cut that's on the horizon.) The results here are still fairly impressive and very interesting to watch.

The previous 2K remasters used a lot of digital smoothing techniques and de-noising. And this version, the intent seems to be to maintain as much of the original film grain as possible/guard the integrity of the original theatrical cuts. The results of which gives a very uneven but very interesting watch. Because more than ever before, you can really see with your own eyes all the little imperfections of the classic analog film composition techniques. Shots that didn't require any vfx are crystal clear and downright gorgeous how much detail you can see in every single frame. Any scenes that do have vfx however, have the telltale image quality loss of when you have to refilm film you've previously recorded to composite multiple images together on top of one another. So any of the location shots, especially ones that used matte paintings, or any space ship moments, or anytime the viewscreen gets used, all those scenes are a fair bit fuzzier and less sharp. I'm sure there are some obvious flaws cleaned up for this release as I didn't really spot much grime in these transfers, but I'm positive most of the flaws of the vfx techniques they were using are still intact since you can still see things like the starfield bleed through the Enterprise if you look carefully. I'm sure if you were a film student, this stuff would be like porn just being able to see exactly how with your own eyes these films were chopped and stitched together. And just from an enthusiast's perspective it's also just fascinating in general to see what effects held up and which ones look more dated.

I still wish they'd do a more costly remaster a la TNG/TOS where they rebuilt the movies using modern digital editing and the dailies as the source, so everything could just be 100% crisp and crystal clear. But I'm glad that this version of the films exists as well, just for historical purposes and appreciation of how far the medium has come. I bet there's a sizable contingency of Star Wars fans that would kill for the equivalent remasters to be made of the original trilogy, unblemished by George Lucas's meddling revisions in the 90s and onward. Sometimes it's hard to remember how good Star Trek fans have it when it comes to stuff like this. I very much look forward to seeing the rest of the original movies in 4K when they eventually get around to releasing those. I don't think this box set is worth the $80-90 asking price, and not everyone's got a 4K HDR TV to get the most out of this either. But if you can find a way to watch these at some point it's worth doing eventually.

  • Of all of the movies, I'd say TMP was the most interesting to watch from a "how was this made" perspective. There was a lot of weird decisions in the filming of this movie that are made much more clear in this 4K cut. Like how often, it appears that they'd film a scene twice, with the depth of field focused in different locations, then cut the video in half and stitch the two together so both the foreground and the background were in focus, with a weird blurry halo surrounding both.
  • The best looking film of the four visually was probably WoK, just because whoever was directing the cinematography in that one was knocking things out of the park. It's also got the most interesting/varied color palate of all the films. TMP is often a little too brown and sterile. SFS is very muddy and murky.
  • Voyage Home was weirdly the most disappointing of the four films to watch. I was hoping/expecting for it to be the clearest and cleanest of the four films on account of it being the youngest. But there's a lot of weird unfocused shots in the filming of this movie or other production flaws that are disappointing to see. If I had to guess, it's probably because of the nature of the movie - being mostly filmed on location where filming conditions are volatile, where you're probably naturally discouraged from reshoots or more careful planning due to the nature of the type of filming, and from the inability to inspect the dailies as carefully as if you were filming in a studio. There's one scene in the middle of the movie where Kirk is pawning his antique spectacles, and it was just really weird how the camera during the conversation was focused not on Kirk who was speaking in the foreground, but on Spock standing behind him. Or how certain scenes were a lot fuzzier than others implying they did a lot of pan & scanning in post to zoom in on what they wanted versus what they originally filmed. Just weird stuff like that, that wouldn't ever be evident while watching on DVD, or even in 2K.
  • God damn does the Enterprise refit look incredible.
  • I'm pretty amused by how well made all the costumes are in these. You can see stuff like stitch work on occasion and it all looks very well done like they weren't cutting any corners. Same with a lot of the set design. There's a lot of small details in the sets that nobody would be expected to notice if they were watching in theaters or the past 30+ years of lower resolution home video, but were still squeezed into the movies.
  • I'll never stop being amused by the fact that everyone in Voyage Home is wearing the same outfits they were wearing in Search For Spock, except for Chekov who was permitted to ditch the space-Pilgrim look.
  • Windows 10 has the most ASS HDR support ever. It just straight up doesn't work, and it's infuriating for watching movies like this where the video is encoded for HDR. If you watch the 4K HDR version of this on a device(s) that doesn't support HDR output, you're going to get a series of movies that are much more muted in their color range. It doesn't look bad, but it's also not as vibrant and bright as the films ought to look. I do not like MS's move to make Windows 11, but if they fix HDR support like they're reported to have, that'll be worth the upgrade by itself.
 
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