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Lotta people dislike that last episode because it basically establishes Quark as having not grown in the slightest during the course of the show. But I kinda like that? Quark isn't a good person. There are times he does the right thing, but overwhelmingly he's still a scuzzy, manipulative, chauvanistic, greedy, capitalist. His escapades are fun, but we're not meant to root for him. And it was a wonderful juxtoposition of showing him clutching his metaphorical MAGA cap and refusing to change with the times, versus his brother who showed a lot of real growth over the series and turned into someone you really can root for. [/spoiler]
Quark's final scene with Odo is chef kiss.
 

Büge

Arm Candy
(she/her)
Apparently Jeffrey Combs really wanted the showrunners to have a moment where Brunt and Weyoun bump into each other and give each other a puzzled look.
 

Büge

Arm Candy
(she/her)
I learned something mindblowing about DS9 after listening to the Mission Log podcast.

This guy

wQfEFXd.png


was also this guy.

poNL3M6.png
 
Love it. It's weird too because these two in particular could probably easily reprise their characters in live action if they want. (Do it CBS! Do it you cowards!)

Also friendly reminder: LDS S2 starts in like two days! I can't wait!
 

Johnny Unusual

(He/Him)
Finished DS9

What You Leave Behind

I was told this one was disappointing but I rather liked it... despite some definite flaws. I didn't need the "great moments from DS9" clip reel, which felt hokey. It was a mood set better by Vic's musical number because despite not featuring the characters too much, it felt like an emotional breathing spot. As much as I mock the character for playing a roll a little TOO similar to an audience insert in fan fiction (EVERYONE likes him or respects him and defers to him and his advice is always perfect and sets people on better courses), it did feel good.

As for the big stuff...

The big final battle was fine. I didn't have any issues with some of the big moments of the Dominion War finale. The weakest stuff is Kai Winn and Dukat. When Winn's story started here, I liked moments and the idea of where her corruption came from but it soon felt rocky as it went on. But I wasn't prepared for how dumb that finale climax was. It wasn't even "awful" in an unwatchable way, just really, really dumb. Winn had been built in the last season as a bit more complex and now she's just a supervillain who has a last minute play to help Sisko. Dukat is just a supervillain. Sisko wins by destroying a McGuffin. Its very silly and feels like it was turning its back on the more complex, mature show I was watching in favor of a Flash Gordon adventure tale. Its like Game of Thrones in microcosm in that respect. If anything, it makes me feel even more strongly that Dukat's story should have ended when he lost his daughter and DS9. Like, he could have kicked around but I didn't care for the show trying to keep him fresh and having him be a little too cartoonish in his villainy. Heck, he's always been Kira's villain, even if he was the show's villain. The two of them facing off doesn't interest me, particularly in this capacity.

But I still liked this and the last arc as a whole. It not one of my favourite finales but I feel like for its faults, it didn't shit the bed. It just had a bit of excess show that I didn't need.


Something I noticed just a day after watching this... whatever happened to the Maquis? Was there an episode that dealt with that because if so, I completely forgot it.
 
Something I noticed just a day after watching this... whatever happened to the Maquis? Was there an episode that dealt with that because if so, I completely forgot it.
It's discussed in the Season 5 episode, "Blaze of Glory".


TL;DR - The Cardassians, with the help of the Dominion, basically ruthlessly wipe all of them out.
 
There's a little followup on this in Voyager which was airing concurrently with a half Maquis crew.

They're obviously off doing their own thing, but it does come up from time to time, including a former Maquis crew member reacting to learning the news of them being wiped out.

 

Büge

Arm Candy
(she/her)
If anything, it makes me feel even more strongly that Dukat's story should have ended when he lost his daughter and DS9. Like, he could have kicked around but I didn't care for the show trying to keep him fresh and having him be a little too cartoonish in his villainy. Heck, he's always been Kira's villain, even if he was the show's villain. The two of them facing off doesn't interest me, particularly in this capacity.
That's because we already had the big ideological (and physical) throw-down between Sisko and Dukat in "Waltz". I've long maintained that Dukat should have died in that episode, because it really feels like the showrunners just didn't know what to do with him after that.
 

Johnny Unusual

(He/Him)
That's because we already had the big ideological (and physical) throw-down between Sisko and Dukat in "Waltz". I've long maintained that Dukat should have died in that episode, because it really feels like the showrunners just didn't know what to do with him after that.
Also, I feel like Dukat and Winn just die are pretty boring ends to the characters in the finale. They are just et by fire monsters. I feel like Dukat deserves some sort of non-death fate of existential horror and that Winn... well, as much as it sucks, maybe her end isn't a cathartic death but something that sticks around to be challenged, because in the murkier Trek series it feels right that not everyone is going to get a clean, just ending that satisfies everyone.

Watched the DS9 documentary directly after, too. Its pretty good. Wow, I heard Marc Alaimo was a creep but I wasn't prepared for how, like, proud he seemed to be of it. Seems like art imitated life there.
 
I really dislike a lot of mid-DS9's attempts to humanize and make a sympathetic character out of Gul Dukat. The guy was literally Space Hitler! I don't want to like him! I'm fine with him being a super villain at the end of the show because moustache twirling is when he was at his best and when I was most comfortable with him. IMO his whole arc played out like the writers weren't exactly comfortable with fans liking or identifying the character and decided to just get really heavy handed with reminding the audience hey, this guy is a BAD dude, you're supposed to hate him.

The stuff with him in the finale didn't really work not because of any focus on any one character, but just because broadly DS9's entire long running experiment with exploring religiosity and attempts at confronting 90s religious zealots by trying to reconcile religion as not being antithetical to science just fell extremely flat in general.
 

Johnny Unusual

(He/Him)
I'm fine with him being a super villain at the end of the show because moustache twirling is when he was at his best and when I was most comfortable with him.
But the show itself is at its best when it is dealing with far weightier stuff than SPACE DEMONS!. Having the show end with a big dumb plan is far less interesting to me than the Dominion War. At that point the evil face I'm much more interested in is Weyoun's smiling condescending face.
 
But the show itself is at its best when it is dealing with far weightier stuff than SPACE DEMONS!. Having the show end with a big dumb plan is far less interesting to me than the Dominion War. At that point the evil face I'm much more interested in is Weyoun's smiling condescending face.
Sidebar: Garak and Weyoun's confrontation. Awesome
 

zonetrope

(he/him)
This is such a weird hang up to me. Most of the articulated opinions I've read on the internet why this is a bad episode, is because they don't like Serious Business Man Captain Archer being a Bad Starfleet Captain™️ by caring more about his 'stupid dog' instead of the huge diplomatic row he's created down on this planet.

Replying to an old post here, but I just watched this episode (A Night in Sickbay). I agree, to me this was one of the most believably flawed and human portrayals of any Trek captain. Have the fans who hate this one never owned a dog?
 
Lower Decks Season 2 just kicked off like an hour ago. And it's sooooooo good. I'm so happy this show is back. Eight seasons and a movie pls!!! The ending scene where Riker's distorted gluon face is just rippling with glee as he exclaims "I love my job!" while things go completely sideways had me rolling. Same with Dr T'Ana running off to find a boulder.

Replying to an old post here, but I just watched this episode (A Night in Sickbay). I agree, to me this was one of the most believably flawed and human portrayals of any Trek captain. Have the fans who hate this one never owned a dog?
I'm sure many do, but those kinda people are just mad a dog is on the ship in general as well. There's a really weird and scourgey segment of Trek fandom that's in it because they want to watch a show about a space military. They fetishize the militaristic aspects and they get upset any time any of the shows have moments that break decorum. Bringing a pet along on a starship is a big no-no, that wouldn't fly in the military! (Please ignore the entire premise of Enterprise as a show, where they start out as glorified astronauts and Starfleet isn't quite there yet. Also ignore all the other times we've seen pets allowed in Starfleet in other shows.)
 

zonetrope

(he/him)
I'm sure many do, but those kinda people are just mad a dog is on the ship in general as well. There's a really weird and scourgey segment of Trek fandom that's in it because they want to watch a show about a space military. They fetishize the militaristic aspects and they get upset any time any of the shows have moments that break decorum. Bringing a pet along on a starship is a big no-no, that wouldn't fly in the military! (Please ignore the entire premise of Enterprise as a show, where they start out as glorified astronauts and Starfleet isn't quite there yet. Also ignore all the other times we've seen pets allowed in Starfleet in other shows.)

Don't get me wrong, I did think "you took your dog on a diplomatic mission?!" But like you've said, for me that translated more to "Archer is a headstrong, moody person and makes mistakes," not "this episode is terrible."
 

Johnny Unusual

(He/Him)
So having watched DS9, here's my takeaway:
DS9 really started to succeed creatively when it stepped away from some of the formulas of the previous Trek series. Granted, that's a bit baked into the pilot with the promise of being tied to a few planets and races rather than roaming the universe but there were still a few "weird race or interplanetary jaunt of the week" stories. And some of them are good. But its not just that DS9 is darker but it seems to do what Roddenberry didn't want to... ask questions like "how far have we come and how quickly can we be dragged away from, if not our core values, then just means". It feels like it wants to ask how much is this progress really possible. Its a far cry than on early TNG where they set up some basic human feelings are things we moved passed in the future (see The Neutral Zone and the idea that maybe people just don't fear death as much anymore, which is an interesting idea that never feels like it is reflected in the series)

But the stuff I like best is when it ventures into John LaCarre-territory, de-romanticizing espionage while still telling gripping tales. I mean, it sort of does the same thing with war but to a lesser degree, in that everyone hates the war but its also an exciting adventure at times (I can't remember who said it but someone said cinematic dynamicism makes it impossible to make a complete anti-war story in the visual medium). Still, it works and I think it justifies the shades of gray far beyond simply "isn't it cool they are tortured." I think this is why I think my favourite relationship is (romantic spoilers) Kira/Odo but not romantically. Romantically, I don't HATE it but its far less interesting to me for it to be a much more complex friendship based on a weird shared past.

Its a shame Jadzia never quite worked, at least for me. She isn't a BAD character, I like that she's a bit like a lady Riker in that she really wants to suck the marrow out of life and have as many fun experiences as possible but idea of the Trill is less interesting in practice than in theory and her central relationship post-season 4 was... not good. I think having a very optimistic but savvy character is a great choice and the actress did great work but I don't know if they found the right way to utilize her on the show.

But the cast is really stellar, even an actor or two I was not into early on became killer (Sidding and his character both really improved as the show did by a lot). And despite the fact that this was a more violent series, it still doesn't feel like the action franchise that it seemed to getting pushed towards when TNG made the jump to the big screen (how many spaceship battles end with the captain sneaking onto the enemy ship and beating up the evil captain). I've made no bones that I think there's one major character whose story could have ended earlier than it did but nonetheless, it remained a strong show once it hit its stride.
 

ArugulaZ

Fearful asymmetry
DS9 feels like two shows in retrospect. The series was inspired by The Rifleman, where a widower and his young son move into unfamiliar territory and learn to live with the people who visit their small town on a regular basis. Up to, oh, season four, the series was relatively low stakes. Weird stuff would happen on the station, and Sisko would have to find ways to deal with it, while also raising his son and mending his own broken heart after the death of his wife. And after, oh, maybe half of the first season, it was good enough. It was diverting television, if not a masterpiece.

But then Ron Moore took the reins, said "I'm sick of all this syrupy frontier drama. Nobody asked for Doctor Quinn: Medicine Woman in space!" And we got Commander Worf and a new direction for the series, one that leaned really hard on space combat and difficult moral dilemmas, with the formerly mysterious but now actively threatening Dominion on the forefront. The freshly promoted Captain Sisko, formerly stoic and passive, was now more intense, angry, and with little patience for bureaucracy or disobedience from his crew. While the post-hair Sisko years were objectively better than what had come before, it's a little disheartening that Jake got pushed into the background.

Jake proved that Ben Sisko had a core of warmth hidden beneath his stony professionalism and occasional displays of bemusement, but at some point, the Captain just didn't have time or interest in those tender family moments. It reminds me a bit of Batman: The Animated Series. For all his crime fighting skill and brooding while wearing the cape, Bruce Wayne was a decent, caring man. He tried his best to reform his friend Harvey Dent, and his partnership with the first Robin was rooted in an almost parental compassion, and an effort to help him cope with a shared tragedy. Once the show moved to the WB and was renamed The New Adventures of Batman, all that empathy just evaporated. He had given up on Harvey, treating him like any other criminal whose jaw made a good target for his fist, and his relationship with the new Robin was all business. "First you give me everything you've got. Then you give me more," he growled as the two sparred in a gym.

I feel like Benjamin Sisko went through that same transformation, and it's what I slightly resent about the Moore half of the series. Remember that conversation he had with
Ezri, the heir of the Dax symbiote,
in an early episode of season seven? I realize it was tough love, but there was a lot more "tough" there than "love." After that, the once genial relationship between Sisko and Dax, which helped justify Terry Farrell's presence on the show, just went into the toilet. He no longer had time for Dax, either.
 
Lower Decks is back with... A pretty ok episode with some good jokes. I still find Mariner a bit obnoxious, but the joke around that was solid "does this make me a bad person?"
"You're the worst person!"

Anyway! Glad it's back!
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
I really dislike a lot of mid-DS9's attempts to humanize and make a sympathetic character out of Gul Dukat. The guy was literally Space Hitler! I don't want to like him! I'm fine with him being a super villain at the end of the show because moustache twirling is when he was at his best and when I was most comfortable with him. IMO his whole arc played out like the writers weren't exactly comfortable with fans liking or identifying the character and decided to just get really heavy handed with reminding the audience hey, this guy is a BAD dude, you're supposed to hate him.
I couldn't disagree much harder with this. Real evil people don't gnaw on babies like their fictional equivalents. They can be really personable and likeable, even. Maybe if our villains were more realistic we'd be better at recognising real life villains. Like with the Krays, a more unpleasant pair of shits you are unlikely to meet. You'll commonly hear "but they were lovely to their mum". Like that has any bearing.
 
Real evil people don't gnaw on babies like their fictional equivalents. They can be really personable and likeable, even. Maybe if our villains were more realistic we'd be better at recognising real life villains.
We spent decades telling the world Lex Luthor was a transparent, 1:1 analog of Donald Trump. There was even a high profile story about Luthor becoming president. And what happened there? So I don't buy that argument.

Meanwhile, there is apparently a sizable chunk of the Star Trek fandom that are racist, sexist, fascist creeps. So every time Star Trek can overtly tell them to fuck off, the better.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
No, Gul Dukat was a fascinating monster. He genuinely believed he was in the right, despite the horrendous things he did. I'd sooner not make something more one dimensional and stupid so that morons with no media awareness or ability for self reflection can continue to miss the point. Because they will. Look at the Star Wars fandom, it's much more blatant in its message, and still people who profess to love it pull out all of the wrong messages.

Also Luthor is nothing like Trump. He's rich, I guess? But his super power is being a genius so there goes that analogue.
 
I'm ok with him burning for eternity in a timeless hell prison with his false gods who are undoubtedly annoying af to have to talk to. Do you want Hitler to live a life of humility as an anonymous vagrant but have gone otherwise unpunished for his heinous crimes? Or to burn in the fires of hell until the end of time?

Also Luthor is nothing like Trump. He's rich, I guess? But his super power is being a genius so there goes that analogue.
 
Sure - but we don't know if that is what it's like or if he just died right then. Likewise, we don't really know that the Pah Wraiths are evil aside from Dukat throwing down with them. They are just as unknowable as the Prophets, who are also annoying. The celestial temple isn't really heaven, but a perplexing nullness outside the the 3rd dimension, non-linear time.

WHAT I DO KNOW IS - helpless Dukat stuck on Bajor unable to do shit. His boundless ego and sense of entitlement would be his tortures as he is set adrift.
 

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
He would weasel his way into a scheme one way or another. Within a week he’d have a gang of orphans or a wealthy widow at his beck & call.
 
Sure - but we don't know if that is what it's like or if he just died right then.
Literally right after that scene, when Sisko is talking to the Prophets he asks about what happened to Dukat and they respond that he's hangin' out with them now forever. We've got no reason to believe they're lying to Sisko or the show is lying to the viewer.

Likewise, we don't really know that the Pah Wraiths are evil aside from Dukat throwing down with them.
You're forgetting the episode where a Pah Wraith took over Keiko's body, and extorted Miles into helping her commit genocide by threatening to murder his wife and child.
 
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