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I'm playing through all of Final Fantasy, and everyone is invited (Playing Lightning Returns now)

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
fn4UUdR.png

I love the Cloud of Darkness. They're such a compelling ultimate adversary; the entire cosmos personified into its potential end. Exdeath's relationship to the Void is much more personal and even tragically inevitable, manifesting as an all-consuming obsession, whereas the Cloud always maintains a composure and aloofness in fulfilling some greater fundamental will of existence. They're both my darlings and a great complementary duo. Dissidia nails it, again: the former schemes and takes smug delight in his own deviousness, while the latter exists outside of the strained alliances between the villains and wanders about where they may entertaining only their own whims and invisible principles. Supplementary portrayals like this are important to my understanding and appreciation of the characters, and it doesn't hurt that the Cloud is voice acted superbly in the series's two dubs: either you get what I think is a definitive role for Laura Bailey in putting up a haughty, imperious tone, or the extreme gravitas of the legendary Masako Ikeda, a voice actor with something like seven decades of experience. She's absolutely a perfect, unsettling casting to communicate the Cloud's eternal being.

We had a vote for the best bosses in video games a while ago and the Cloud made that list for me too:

A nearly nude genderless avatar of entropic balance, the being called Cloud of Darkness serves as the final trial undertaken by the Four Warriors of Light, a force nominally occupying an adversarial role but one whose place in the game's cosmology is firmly characterized as impartial and equilibrial. It's for this reason that fighting the Cloud doesn't feel like the quelling of a great misanthropic evil, but simply the playing out of pre-assigned tasks in service of something fundamentally more significant than the triumph of "good" over "evil." There's no resentment in either party even as they dance according to the tune playing out. The underlying simplicity and directness of the situation is communicated in the Cloud's single-minded approach to battle; a barrage of Particle Beam after Particle Beam characterizes them as unyielding and uncompromising, but also reliably consistent in the onslaught. It's a curious sensation to be left with at the end of an adventure that is so superficially archetypal.

It gets as good for me later in the series, or potentially a little better, but not by much.
 

Zef

Find Your Reason
(He/Him)
I think @Peklo has just explained the Cloud far better than anything I gleaned from the franchise's own narrative 😮 I don't think I had considered her as the personification of a fundamental cosmic concept, but I like the idea and it makes her an even higher-tier villain than most other baddies in the series. I suppose the only other entity close to that level would be Necron, whom I interpret as the personification of Death?
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
As there are no doors in the city walls, we are trapped. The closest is the castle, where we find a yard. In that yard, we see two armies fighting each other.
I *love* the sprites of the two armies squaring off. The whole of the Saronia scenario feels more ambitious than the NES is capable of presenting, but they went for it anyway, and I love that. Both the big army battle and the city itself are striving to deliver on a grand scale but can only really gesture at that scale.
The bard was probably the most disappointing job. His attacks were weak, and his special commands didn't seem to help too much either. I sometimes saw a difference in attack power, but it varied too much.
Was the bard job you were refering to, JBear?
Yup. I can (and did in the old FF thread) make an argument for every other job in the game, but Bard just seems bad. It's still playable, and I used one for a while just because, but you are always better off with something else.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
fn4UUdR.png

I love the Cloud of Darkness. They're such a compelling ultimate adversary; the entire cosmos personified into its potential end. Exdeath's relationship to the Void is much more personal and even tragically inevitable, manifesting as an all-consuming obsession, whereas the Cloud always maintains a composure and aloofness in fulfilling some greater fundamental will of existence. They're both my darlings and a great complementary duo. Dissidia nails it, again: the former schemes and takes smug delight in his own deviousness, while the latter exists outside of the strained alliances between the villains and wanders about where they may entertaining only their own whims and invisible principles. Supplementary portrayals like this are important to my understanding and appreciation of the characters, and it doesn't hurt that the Cloud is voice acted superbly in the series's two dubs: either you get what I think is a definitive role for Laura Bailey in putting up a haughty, imperious tone, or the extreme gravitas of the legendary Masako Ikeda, a voice actor with something like seven decades of experience. She's absolutely a perfect, unsettling casting to communicate the Cloud's eternal being.

We had a vote for the best bosses in video games a while ago and the Cloud made that list for me too:



It gets as good for me later in the series, or potentially a little better, but not by much.

Thanks for the write-up, and the artwork. I like your read of the single attack that the CoD does, again and again. And the whole idea of a duology of Light and Darkness, instead of a battle of good vs evil, really makes the world of FF III more interesting. It just has more depth, I think.

I'm looking forward to meeting Exdeath again, I remember him as one of my favourite villains, partly just because he was so grandious but also kind of silly.

I *love* the sprites of the two armies squaring off. The whole of the Saronia scenario feels more ambitious than the NES is capable of presenting, but they went for it anyway, and I love that. Both the big army battle and the city itself are striving to deliver on a grand scale but can only really gesture at that scale.

Oh yeah, it looks pretty cool. I didn't write about it, but you have two sides who fill up the whole screen, with only a small walkway between them. One row on both sides is just made up of little horses, and I think there were a ton of cannons. It looks silly (which fits the game at least), but I think it gets clear here that the creators pushed against the limits of the system.

I feel like the city works decently well. As I mentioned, I couldn't help compare it with Midgar, because it's so big, and just that you have different districts, and an overworld inside the city give it a very distinct, big feel. I would really love to learn more about how this place came to be. But yes, you could only do so much on this console.

Yup. I can (and did in the old FF thread) make an argument for every other job in the game, but Bard just seems bad. It's still playable, and I used one for a while just because, but you are always better off with something else.

It's really a shame that it took Square until FF V to make the bard the great supporter that he was always supposed to be. For some reason, people also mention Gordon from FF II, when they talk about bad bards, which I don't understand. Maybe I missed something, but he never was presented as a bard, I think.

I love the idea of this class, and play bards in D&D, when I get the chance to, because the idea of music that creates actual magic is fascinating to me. Part of the reason why I love the Bill & Ted movies is the idea, that the world will by united at some point, by the power of music. It's just such a beautiful concept.
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
Feel free to go into detail, if you want to. I'd love to read about this, because the concept of Light taking everything over fascinates me. And I guess use a spoiler, there are probably some people who don't actually want to read about it. I would like to, though. Only if you feel like it, of course.
I think it's actually more that I'd have to rewatch a bunch of cutscenes to make sure I get the lore right, but also I haven't played the main story in several patches so I don't know if the concept gets elaborated on by those story continuations (it almost certainly does, I assume).
 

Beowulf

Son of The Answer Man
(He/Him)
I love the idea of this class, and play bards in D&D, when I get the chance to, because the idea of music that creates actual magic is fascinating to me. Part of the reason why I love the Bill & Ted movies is the idea, that the world will by united at some point, by the power of music. It's just such a beautiful concept.
Bards in D&D are fundamentally different, though: They're the Red Mage class. The magical music is fluff (and honestly, you could build a D&D red mage class or a musical sorcerer class without any mechanical changes), but they're intended as all-rounder/hole-plugger/support staff. Final Fantasy filled that role from day one with the red mage, and once the mix-and-match class system we see in 5, Tactics, etc gets built out, they never really need that all-rounder role again. (Honestly, Red Mage is one of the most troublesome classes in 5 because of that, and the only reason to use it is to grind out Doublecast.)
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Sure, but what I meant was just the idea of having someone in your party, who used music as a means of fighting and helping their friends. That this is mainly fluff in D&D doesn't matter to me, it's just this idea that makes me happy. I'm not a person that is that much into mechanics, and my D&D characters have all been pretty weak, in the sense of warriors, because I always choose the weirder, fluffy magic. So their intended roles don't really matter to me, I just want to feel like I have someone whose music can change the world. When it comes to D&D, I'm all about the fluff, mechanics are secondary at best.

Also, I'm happy that I finally know where your avatar is from. :D I remember Josef very well, and I loved his design.
 

Beowulf

Son of The Answer Man
(He/Him)
Also, I'm happy that I finally know where your avatar is from. :D I remember Josef very well, and I loved his design.
Thanks! It's a character from my short-lived sprite webcomic from 2002--Josef's body, a thief's hair, and a little extra beard drawn in.
 

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
I remember the Bard being decent in the remake. The buff applied by Sing depends on the harp equipped, and there's one that applies Haste to the whole party, another for Protect, and one for Shell.

I mean, that's the entirety of the Bard toolkit, but it's a pretty good trick.
 
PS: There's a neat detail with the boat outside Amur. You can still enter the boat, and try to sail away— but after a couple squares, a chain becomes visible and prevents you from leaving. It's a nice touch for such a short segment; it would have been easy and acceptable to just prevent the player from even entering the boat, but they went the extra step of actually tethering it to shore.
That is really cool! I didn't even think of trying that. Now I wish I'd kept a save at that part to see if you can still do it in the remake. I'll bet you can, though; it's usually good about preserving little details like that.

Oh yeah, it looks pretty cool. I didn't write about it, but you have two sides who fill up the whole screen, with only a small walkway between them. One row on both sides is just made up of little horses, and I think there were a ton of cannons. It looks silly (which fits the game at least), but I think it gets clear here that the creators pushed against the limits of the system.
On the other hand, this is a detail that didn't really get preserved. In the remake, there are a few rows of soldiers on each side, and nothing else. Incidentally, I think those are the only domesticated horses in the whole series?

When I left off, I'd just gotten the Nautilus. The only new place it can go is the windy passage to Doga's shrine on the southern continent, so that was my next destination. There are random encounters on the world map here even while flying the airship, which is just as wild as the encounters in towns earlier in the game. Since the enemies fly, they're weak to spears, so my being too lazy to switch anyone out of Dragoon pays off, and the battles go very smoothly.

In Doga's shrine, we meet some moogles, but the impact of seeing them for the first time and as a potential threat isn't really there, even without knowledge of later games, because we've been seeing them all along; there's a Mognet moogle delivering your mail in almost every town. In fact, there's one here, and they were the first one I talked to after the scene, even. Doga joins the party for the brief Mini dungeon, but I never saw him do anything in battle. Towards the end, there was a scene where he was coughing and saying he didn't have much time left, and it seemed like he was going to die after turning the Nautilus into a submarine, but it never happened.

Now that the Nautilus can go underwater, there are a few new places we can go. First is Doga's Village, which collects every magic shop we've seen so far in one town. I don't think there are any new spells available here, though. There's a cave with a shipwreck in the small triangular island in the southeast. It's a short dungeon that seems to exist only to provide treasure, but the monsters here were strong enough that I backed out to rest once, and finished looting it on a second trip. The most important pickups here were two new weapons for the Monk, which is absurdly powerful now, regularly dealing over 3000 damage. There's a passageway under Saronia that leads to Odin, who uses two physical attacks each round. With the party I had been using in Doga's dungeon, Geomancer/Thief/Black Mage/White Mage, my characters didn't have the defense to last long against him. The shipwreck cave had some new armor that the Viking could use, so I tried again using that. Provoke works on Odin, though as with any enemy, it doesn't work all the time; still, Luneth as a Viking dual-wielding shields and provoking every turn made the damage very manageable... until Odin used Zantetsuken, dealing around 1000 damage to everyone. It doesn't seem like defense helps against this attack, and I don't have the raw HP to survive it, so I'll have to come back here later. For now, I just opened the chests, getting some more heavy armor and a strong spear. Also, the stronger versions of the elemental attack items can be stolen from enemies here, which briefly tempts me to use a Scholar again, but they still can't use any armor better than what they got back on the floating continent, and enemies are already doing plenty of damage even to high defense jobs.

The last dungeon I found underwater is the Temple of Time, the next plot destination. There are locked doors here leading to treasure rooms, so Refia continues to be a Thief for good results. The shipwreck cave also had some new Thief weapons, and even though there haven't been any armor upgrades for them since Amur, those are still decent. I went a couple of floors into this place, then encountered a Behemoth that was strong enough to be a boss in its own right, and though I managed to win, Ingus died and I burned a lot of resources in the fight, so I warped out. Next time: finishing this dungeon and taking another crack at Odin.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
In the original, the moogles in Dogas mansion are the first moogles to appear. The music is serious too, so you might think you are in trouble. I mean, they look cute, but that's true for nearly everyone. But even than, it takes only a short time for Doga to appear and welcome you.

And right, I think I forgot to mention that the places, were you need an airship to go on, have random encounters on them. With the highest encounter rate in the game, sometimes a new fight after three steps. It was actually pretty annoying.

But it gets easier with the Invincible, that one starts the battle by shooting the monsters, all of them. It's a great ship.
 
I tried out Bard and Evoker. There are four harps sold in Duster; one of these is the one from Amur that casts Protect on everyone with Sing, and one was in the Saronia treasure room and casts Haste on everyone. Multitarget Haste is cool, but it wears off quickly. One of the other two harps heals everyone a little bit, and the other does a weak attack to all enemies; the name of the song for the latter is Requiem, a name it shares with a Bard ability in FFV that does heavy damage to undead, so maybe that's its effect in this game as well, but while undead were common earlier in the game, there aren't many of them around anymore. Bard seems like a poor alternative to White Mage, for the most part. I only tried it for a few battles, though. If it's something like the duration of the Haste effect improves with job level, Bard could be worth investing in. Evoker is volatile, and seems like it would have moments where it's really awesome. Ifrit heals everyone for around 1700, for instance; that could save you from a bad situation if it triggered at the right time. The offensive effects of summons aren't that powerful compared to physical jobs at this point, though. Since the effect you get is random, it kind of reminds me of the Geomancer's Terrain, but it's more controllable since you at least choose what to summon. Could be a good alternative to Geomancer in dungeons where Terrain tends to trigger less useful attacks, like Whirlpool. There's about to be a really nice armor upgrade for the other mage jobs, though, so I feel like the Evoker's moment has passed.

On a return visit, the Temple of Time wasn't too bad. Behemoths were still scary, and quite common on the lower floors, but they didn't kill anyone this time. One of the chests here had a Behemoth knife, a nice upgrade for Refia, but it doesn't seem to be any more effective on Behemoths than it is on anything else. At the end is Noah's Lute, which we need to wake up Unei.

When Unei wakes up, there's a scene where she just runs around the room for a bit because being awake feels so good. She calls her parrot to her shoulder, whereupon it just vanishes. She gives us the Fang of Fire, and explains what the fangs are for: they'll let us get past the statues in the mountain pass far north of Amur, which leads to Xande. She joins the party, and teases Luneth a little when he's shocked at her coming with us. In one of her square button scenes, she says that Xande couldn't have caused the earthquake on the floating continent, since he was still frozen in time in the lower world. What else could have caused it?

Unei participates in battle by casting Holy for around 5000 damage to one enemy, or Haste on the whole party. Awesome! Also, she blows up some giant rocks that block the path into the ancient ruins. Unei is the coolest character in this game.

Scholars in the ruins have set up a little town area that sells new equipment. Most notable are the white and black robes, for the corresponding mage jobs. Arc is still a White Mage, and the white robe is a big boost to his defenses. The dungeon part of the ruins has enemies that can split if they get hit and don't die, but they don't always do it, and they usually don't survive an attack anyway. XP seems to be scaled with the assumption that you'll have to deal with a lot of them, though, or maybe it's just intentionally low because fights are easy at this point, especially when Unei joins in.

At the end, we find the Invincible, a huge airship with onboard shops, beds and fat chocobo. In the remake, there's a pair of moogles here, too. One of them is a regular Mognet moogle (Alus wrote to Arc! And the fake light warriors from Amur sent a letter as well), and the other shows the stats of the monsters you've fought so far. Besides functioning as a mobile town, it can fly over some small mountain ranges. There's a prompt to press X when you fly up to a mountain range where this will work; some ranges look like they should be passable this way but aren't, notably the one that blocks the way to Doga's village. Also, it cannot pass through the wind that blocks the way to Doga's shrine, or go underwater. Despite that, the Invincible rises out of the middle of the ocean, nowhere near the ruins where we found it. Unei tells us to go to a cave north of Amur that the Invincible can reach, which holds the last elemental fang, and bring it to Doga's shrine.

Besides that cave, there's one other new place the Invincible can reach: the lake on the floating continent where we saw a huge shadow moving around much earlier. Canoeing onto the shadow gets us into a cave with lots of treasure; most of it is consumable items, but there's also a couple of new, very strong hammers for the Viking. At the end is Leviathan. Like Odin, it eventually uses a multitarget attack I can't survive; unlike Odin, it's not easy to deal with until then, being able to petrify with its normal attack and cast Blizzaga, which killed Refia in one hit. However, the enemies here give lots of XP, and after looting this cave and gaining a few levels in the process, I was able to go back and beat Odin. He didn't even use Zantetsuken this time, but I think I could've survived it, once, if he had.

After that, I headed for the cave with the earth fang. There are once again random encounters while on the airship in this area, but the Invincible shoots the monsters with cannons at the start of each battle, softening them up quite a bit. Refia did 9999 damage to one of the enemies here thanks to hitting its wind weakness with one of her daggers, marking the first time I've seen the damage cap in this game. The cave has more monsters that split, and there a couple of dark knight NPCs here who explain that their dark swords can prevent this; one of them gives us his Kotetsu before dying. The low battery warning came on a little bit further into the cave, though, so I'll have to go through it for real later. I did try switching to Dark Knight now that I have a weapon for it, and was surprised to see that Dark Knights can actually use regular swords as well, potentially making them usable before this. They can only wear armor from earlier in the game, though, making their defense quite low at this point, lower than the mage jobs, even, since those have their colored robes now. Also, they can't use any magic in this version. I remember splitting enemies being really hard to deal with before getting dark swords in the original, but so far they haven't been so bad in the remake. Still, there's never going to be a better time to give Dark Knight a chance, so I will.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
So, final thoughts.

First, I want to reemphasize that I really love FF III. I think that became obvious through my posts, but I feel like it's fair to mention it one more time. Because it's just a really great game, and a really great FF.

Final Fantasy I feels, like it is first and foremost a try, to make a D&D videogame. I know, I repeat myself here, and I will try not to do that every time I write these final thoughts, but anyway – FF I doesn't really feel like a Final Fantasy game to me. Which is fine. It is a fun game in it's own right, and I enjoyed my time with it a lot. But it feels mainly like a D&D game to me.

Final Fantasy II felt like a bigger-and-better version, if you look at it in a specific way. Mainly: it tried to frame the adventure within an epic story, to give it more focus and really give the player a way to build their characters in the way they wanted to. FF I already gave the player a choice in their characters, but not nearly as much as a real D&D game would. II tried to rectify that. And the story in I is basically not there, it only has setpieces, if you even want to call it that. FF I was a bunch of little quests strung together in a clumsy way. FF II is a big campaign, where each step leads to the next.

When FF I focused on bringing D&D to the Famicom, and FF II focused on adding story and character development, FF III feels most like it wanted to translate a childrens adventure into a videogame. It is to a good degree FF I, but better. Except that it also uses story way more competently than FF I, which grounds you better in the world. The job system feels like a mix of choosing your jobs at the beginning, and doing whatever you want. You still can develop your characters in different ways, but instead of giving you only the barest of clues in how to develop anyone, it created archetypes for you. But you still can decide, which of these archetypes to use. Well, for the most part.

But aside from that, FF III is just a joy to play, and I can't help but think that was very much intended, to differentiate itself from the grim story of FF II. You have little flourishes everywhere (the little cannon in the pirate cave, the pianos that you can play and make people dance to, but also stuff like the woman with the floating shoes from the sewers, who just throws exploding shoes at you). It's a goofy game, and has fun with itself. You meet multiple weird and goofy people, and all kinds of different scenarios, like a child whould think them up. Sure, there is a Djinn who transformed everyone into ghosts, and than you visit a mansion where everything is made out of gold, or a horrible place where monsters are split in two, if you don't use the darkness of these monsters yourself. It's very inventive, and throws creative ideas at you all the time. Including, of course, the different jobs.

The jobs

I like to thing that, in FF II, the developers thought of all these fun classes that you would be able to turn your characters into. Except that it didn't work out that well. So, I guess, the basic idea for FF III was to give the player an easy way to use these classes.

I wanted to talk a bit about each job, but than realized that I don't have that much to actually say about most of them. They aren't that different at this point, at least the physical classes, and they are all useful enough. Jobs like Fighter and Monk have clear upgrades, and I can't imagine a reason to stick to them, except for a challenge run.

It's obvious that this is the first time that a real job system was used. Especially the physical jobs seems very similar, though they are all powerful enough. You have little things, like the Monk and Karateka getting more HP than the rest, and the Knight automatically defending party members in critical health, but it is still very basic. That doesn't mean it's not fun, because just the different costumes add a feel of trying something new, whenever you change jobs.

As I mentioned, the only class that I didn't get a real use out of was the bard. The jobs are still pretty simplistic, which is probably part of the reason, why they didn't figure out how to do a pure supporting class correctly. Other weird classes, like Scholar and Geomancer, are fine, at least in some places of the game. And the second sets of jobs don't have clear upgrades anymore, this is mainly a thing of the first set, the classes taken from FF I.

For example, the Knight is a strong class up to the end. You can change him to a Viking, a Dragoon or a Magic Knight, but these aren't straight upgrades. Similarly, you can keep using a Black Mage, or change back into one whenever you get new spells, but you could also change to the Evoker, and later Summoner. Considering that the game does often enough pressure you into specific jobs, it also does add more freedom than one would expect. I guess that was not quite intended, but was just a side effect of such a system. Which would lead to the mix-and-match approach of FF V.

A class that surprised me a lot was Evoker. It should have a clear upgrade in the Summoner, but that isn't strictly true. The Summoner casts monsters, that all attack all enemies. It is clearly a strong class. The Evoker never prodoces that effect. There is a 50:50 chance, that the summoned monster will attack one monster, or do some status magic. Which shouldn't be ignored, it is very helpful to have Shiva put every monster to sleep, or for Ramuh to paralyze everyone. Even for bosses, you have the simple option of Titan, whose two Evoker attacks are: Strong Attack and Stronger Attack. It's a really fun class.

But I still feel like the game intended you to mainly upgrade your jobs, and use newer ones, when you got them (or when you were pressured). There are just a lot of examples, where certain jobs will make a dungeon easier. And, of course, there are the two final jobs, with one being clearly superior to all physical, and one being clearly superior to all magical jobs. There is no reason not to use the Sage and the Ninja, except for a challenge run.

It's definitely a very fun system, and is part of why FF III is such a joyful game. Just all the different costumes are a joy to look at.

Right, before I forget, someone really seemed to have taken interest in the Magic Knight, which would become the Dark Knight in FF IV. There is some talk about „Defeating your inner Darkness“, something like that. This indicates, that at least with this job, there were ideas for how to incorporate them into the story. Except that this wasn't the game for that. But the seeds for FF IV were planted here.

The Chocobos and the Moogles

Chocobos were introduced in FF II, and, despite being very easily missable, seemed to have immediately made their way into the hearts of the designer or the fans (or maybe just both). They are way more prominent here, already. Not too much, but you find multiple Chocobo Forests all around the world, and the Fat Chocobo is very helpful (and really cute).

67T55NmbOX6i8dqH2Nlw9a1QpDKI1FNr9iHB-0zv6wU.jpg


Interestingly, in FF II (and I think even here, in FF III) they were thought of as very different, than what they would later became (as seen in the picture). The first concept art shows them as giant, naked birds with long beaks, which can carry multiple people at once. I guess the cute sprite helped making them into the adorable birds they would become later on. I certainly love them, they alone make an FF game feel more like a part of the series.

The Moogles are introduced here, and it's interesting how their first appearance shows them as dangerous guardians, before their master Doga appears. That their sprite is cute doesn't mean anything, after all (just look at the Chocobo). But they are here introduced as nice and helpful.

The Summons

I always loved the summons, and used them whenever possible (except that they cost MP, which I tried to preserve, *sigh*). Their appearance seems to have left quite an impression, either with the desigerns, or with the fans (or, again, both).

We see the first instance of creatures from older games being reused as summons. Leviathan isn't quite that, as it was just a gigantic sea monster in II, but Bahamuth was an important side character. I imagine it was quite interesting for japanese players, when they tried this game and found out that they could use the king of dragons as helper in battle.

The whole idea of summons is pretty cool. Just that you call uppon powerful creatures, all with their unique, interesting designs, with names from real-world mythological sources, is a great idea. It's no wonder that they hung around. I also like that the game makes it clear, that summoning is a pretty difficult kind of magic. The rookies are not able to call upon the full power of the creatures, you need to be a master at the craft for that.

That a Chocobo is summonable indicates, that you should be able to call upon all different kinds of creatures. But without a small set of summons, this would need more design work than would be sensible for two jobs. I just like this little detail, that you would probably also be able to summon a hawk or a clownfish.

The Sidequests

FF I already had some sidequests (mainly the quest for the class change, I'm not sure if there are any others?). FF II, I think, didn't have any sidequests at all. So I count the focus on voluntary stuff in FF III as something new. You have four dungeons, that you can completely ignore (the dungeons where you meet Odin, Leviathan and Bahamut, as well as the dungeon under the triangle-shaped island with a ton of treasure). There is a town that you don't need to visit at all. There are a ton of things hidden in dungeons and especially towns/castles, which you can only find by searching for hidden halways (but there are always clues that they are there).

The Evoker and Summoner are jobs, that will only really work if you even do the sidequests. Granted, you can also buy the three final summons in a semi-hidden shop, so the designers weren't quite at the point, where they would lock players out of side stuff, especially when it would weaken two whole jobs. But it's really nice, that you have these side-quests, that give really great rewards (Bahamut is already super-awesome and powerful).

Even the final jobs and the ultimate weapons can be completely skipped, because they are in a subdungeon of the final dungeon, that you never need to explore.

I really like this approach, it makes the whole world (and especially the towns and castles) so much bigger and interesting than they would be otherwise. There is always stuff to find, and it is a big part of why this feels like a kids imagined adventure, translated to the videogame format.

-------------------------------------

Well, I think that's all. I already talked about the Dark World, and how it fascinates me. If there is one thing I would like to get more details on (like I did with Paramecia in II, and how the Empire was as a place before everything went horrible), it's the story of how the Dark World changed from a normal world to this weird, little place, that you visit at the end, and how the Warriors of Darkness came to be imprisoned. Sounds like an interesting, dark tale.

Anyway, next up is FF IV. I'll wait for some time, as I need a break. Maybe until gorha and Conchobar are done with their playthroughs. No pressure, guys, take the time you need.
 
I'd never seen this before, and I wouldn't recognize it as a chocobo or anything from Final Fantasy if you didn't tell me it was, but just as a piece of 80s fantasy art, it rules. It also makes me question the conventional wisdom that chocobos were based on those birds from Nausicäa; maybe they were just based on how it would be awesome to ride a giant land-pterosaur.

The cave of darkness is a cool dungeon, with catchy and fitting music of its own, dragon skeletons scattered all over (including a couple of giant ones near the end that you walk across like bridges) and lots of hidden passages, some required to progress through it, some leading to optional treasure, some coming to dead ends or loops. The monsters here have a chance to split if they survive an attack from a weapon other than a Dark Knight's katana. Notably, that means they can split even when attacked by a Dark Knight using a katana and a regular sword. Dark Knight is hard to use for most of this dungeon due to low defense; I changed Refia into one after getting the first weapon for them, and she got killed by one critical hit in the first battle after that change. However, there are chests towards the end of the dungeon with Genji equipment, a set of very good Dark-Knight-only armor, and another katana, making it the new top physical job of the moment. Also, in lieu of magic, they get the Souleater skill, which sacrifices some HP (around 20% of max) to damage all enemies, similar to Cecil's skill in FFIV. I ended up having Refia sit in the back with a shield and use Souleater until I got the good armor for her, and it worked well enough. The boss here is a giant who only uses physical attacks, and goes down easily enough, leaving behind the Fang of Earth.

At this point I realized that I'd missed a couple of things: the town of Falgabard and Bahamut's cave, both accessible with the Invincible. Falgabard has a bunch of Dark Knight equipment that would've made using the job early in the cave of darkness less dicey, but I don't need it at this point. It does have a couple of nice hammers for the Viking to loot, though. I kind of don't mind missing Falgabard earlier, since I would've undoubtedly spent a bunch of money on equipment there, and now I can spend it on some high level magic that I finally have the MP to use. Bahamut is another optional summon with a powerful multitarget attack, though it seems a little less bad than Leviathan's. I didn't beat him on the first try, but I think it would be doable if I change some things up. I decided to go back to Doga's shrine and advance the plot a bit first, though.

Doga and Unei create a magic circle to bring us into some caverns, saying they'll meet us at the end. It's an easy and straightforward dungeon, but at the end, the two of them attack us because their energy is needed to unseal some weapons. Doga uses black magic, and Unei uses white magic. They fight one at a time, but since there's no opportunity to open the menu in between the two fights, it's more like a single continuous battle. I was pretty beat up at the start of Unei's fight since Arc's Curaga didn't go off on the last round before Doga died, but Unei spent her first turn casting Tornado, which reduces someone to low HP, but can't kill them, so he was able to get it off then, and I won on the first try. Neither of them had too much HP, so it didn't take long, but it was still tense because their damage output was so high.

In the scene afterwards, the two try to reassure us that their souls will live on even if their bodies die, and give us a pep talk about the power of light, ascribing specific traits to the light of each party member: courage for Luneth, kindness for Arc, affection for Refia and determination for Ingus. They give us the key to Syrcus Tower, where Xande is; with this and the four fangs, we can finally confront him.

Is it just me, or did Noah kind of screw over all of his apprentices? Xande got the gift of dying eventually when he seems to really want to stay alive. Unei got control of the dream world, but has to sleep forever, and she seems to really like being awake. Doga got the gift of magic, which doesn't have an obvious downside, but basically just makes him equivalent to the Sage job... and that's assuming he actually knows all the spells that are sold in the village named after him; he only uses black magic when we fight him. And now we find out that both of them ultimately have to fight and be killed by their friends. I dunno, maybe that's the point, that even though their situation sucks, they still do the right thing, as opposed to Xande.

Anyway, I went back and beat Bahamut after that. Much like with my successful fight against Odin, he didn't even use Megaflare. It's a little disappointing that by the time I'm properly prepared to eat a summon's big attack and have a plan to recover from it, I kill them before they can use it. Also, because you exit Bahamut's cave from the other side and technically fight him on the world map, the exit is set as your entrance for the purpose of Teleport on the way back, so you have to walk all the way out. Not that it's a long dungeon, but still.

Then I went and beat Leviathan as well. It was tougher than Bahamut despite being a lower level summon; I had to have attackers toss Gold Needles occasionally, so that Arc could keep healing with magic. As a Viking, Luneth's Provoke came in handy here, since he could do it while equipping Aegis Shields, which not only gave him great defense, but status immunity as well. It still took a couple of tries, and it actually used Tsunami once on my winning attempt, then died on the very next hit.

There's another Mognet quest at this point: Cid says a monster has shown up in his basement and asks for help killing it. It turns out to be Aeon, a yellow colored Gutsco. He can use Earthquake to do tons of damage to everyone, and that plus a normal attack killed Luneth on the first turn, but even though he had the explosive offense of a boss, his HP was closer to a normal enemy, so the fight wasn't really hard. He drops a piece of orihalcum that we can take to the legendary smith in Saronia. Except, I guess she's not there anymore? I don't think there's anything left to do but head to Syrcus, so if she shows up there, I'll give it to her, but I really don't feel like scouring the whole world to find her again at this point; I just want to see what they've done with the endgame in the remake.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
I'd never seen this before, and I wouldn't recognize it as a chocobo or anything from Final Fantasy if you didn't tell me it was, but just as a piece of 80s fantasy art, it rules. It also makes me question the conventional wisdom that chocobos were based on those birds from Nausicäa; maybe they were just based on how it would be awesome to ride a giant land-pterosaur.

Maybe it's a bit of both? The bird is at least Amanos interpretation, maybe someone else had the idea of the Nausicäa birds in mind. I guess there is a bit of truth to both.

Is it just me, or did Noah kind of screw over all of his apprentices? Xande got the gift of dying eventually when he seems to really want to stay alive. Unei got control of the dream world, but has to sleep forever, and she seems to really like being awake. Doga got the gift of magic, which doesn't have an obvious downside, but basically just makes him equivalent to the Sage job... and that's assuming he actually knows all the spells that are sold in the village named after him; he only uses black magic when we fight him. And now we find out that both of them ultimately have to fight and be killed by their friends. I dunno, maybe that's the point, that even though their situation sucks, they still do the right thing, as opposed to Xande.

The game, or at least the translation, just doesn't provide that much context. I ones read an argument, that Xandes gift, mortality, was actually meant as a real, nice gift. Because living forever would get meaningless at some point. Doga doesn't die, after all, but he probably lived for a long time now, and is just there in his hidden mansion, surrounded by Moogles. I imagine immortality, no matter how powerful and curious you are, to become a curse at some point. Boredom will set in, even if it takes thousands of years.

You are totally correct with Unei. Being stuck in the Dream World doesn't seem like her prefered way of spending her live. We also never see the Dream World, and, considering that Unei sacrifices herself, I'm not sure if it even needs someone to guard over it. Or maybe it does, but the "real" world is more important, because if that dies, the Dream World will too? Maybe something bad will happen through the Dream World (an abundance of nightmares, or people dying in their sleep?), and a guardian is important? And Noah wasn't around anymore, and had to give the task to someone.

Examining Noahs presents provides nice food for thought, it's a bit of a shame that the game doesn't explore it a bit more. But it is an early game, and speculating is fun, so it's not really a big deal.
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
Not sure if there’s any significance to Xandes monster form being basically just Skeletor, as compared to the considerably more monsterous forms that Unei and Doga wind up with, but that’s there as well.

Also, it kind of bugged me in Dissidia that Cloud of Darkness was in no possible way, a cloud.

She still has Flotsam and Jetsam, but not the part of her appearance that is literally in her first name.
 
My FFIII playthrough was interrupted by the Guilty Gear Strive beta, but that's over now, and I'm close to the end.

So, to get past the statues with the elemental fangs, you have to be on foot, but once they're all destroyed, you have to go back to the Invincible to fly over the mountains blocking the way to Syrcus Tower. It's a very mild inconvenience at worst, but it still stood out to me. FFIII has the most metroidvania-like progression of any Final Fantasy game, where at many points in the game you can see places that are barred to you, and won't get the item needed to reach them until hours later, and that's making me think about how those barriers are implemented. In this case, you need the Invincible to get the earth fang anyway, so there's no doubt that you have it if you're able to reach the crossable mountain range; it seems unnecessary to make you actually bring it there if you prefer the Nautilus' speed for general airship travel. Similarly, you need the Nautilus to get the Invincible, so there's no game progression reason to make Doga's village reachable only with the Nautilus. There's even a mountain range there that looks small enough to fly over with the Invincible, but you just can't do it for some reason. On the other hand, quirks of the world map like this do serve to make these locations feel more inaccessible, which I appreciate; there's something cool about a town that can only be reached by one ship in the whole world, and a dungeon that can only be reached by a different one ship. I dunno, it's not a big deal at all, I just thought it was noteworthy.

Anyway, on the other side of the mountains is the Ancient Maze that surrounds Syrcus Tower. Upon entering, we can go immediately into the earth crystal's room. The crystal tells us that Xande is using its power to try to cover the world in darkness again, and that Syrcus Tower was constructed from solid light in the previous age. A Titan appears for an obligatory boss fight. Although it shares its name with the summon, they look very different; this one looks like Hecatoncheires, the boss in the cave of shadows, who, come to think of it, will also become a summon, with a very different design, later in the series. Titan can cast Quake to damage the whole party, but compared to the multitarget attacks of some other bosses, it's not that strong.

Once he's defeated, the crystal gives us the last set of jobs: Magus, Devout, Summoner, Black Belt, Sage and Ninja. Magus, Devout and Summoner are the upgraded mage jobs as in the original, and Black Belt is the upgraded Monk that got moved to the earth crystal for some reason. Black Belts can use the Boost command to raise the damage of their next attack. Sage can use all types of magic, but its stats aren't as good as Magus or Devout's, and they still get the Evoker summon effects instead of the Summoner ones. They're less of an ultimate magic job and more like an upgrade to Red Mage, though they don't have the physical competence of that job. Ninja is not the ultimate physical job in this version, either; it only gets the equipment formerly restricted to Thief and Dark Knight. Ninja has a Throw command, though, that lets them use weapons of all types as consumable attack items, like ninjas in later games. I figured that even if Sage and Ninja are no longer direct upgrades from every other job, they're probably still going to be really useful, so Refia became a Ninja and Arc became a Sage; and since they're given at the same time, the other four earth crystal jobs ought to be about on par with them, so I should pick two of them to use. Luneth became a Devout and Ingus became a Black Belt. The new mage jobs have some weird MP distribution; as a Devout, Luneth has more charges for level 5 spells than anything else, while Arc as a Sage has a more normal curve, but with fewer charges for low levels than even the regular old White Mage, but more for higher levels.

The Ancient Maze is a really cool looking dungeon, with shifting patterns on the walls and floor, and lava pits all over (which we don't have to walk through, fortunately). Despite its name, it isn't much of a maze, being laid out as a path with a few detours for treasure, like most other dungeons in this game. It makes me immediately question my job selections by being full of treasure chests with a new set of crystal armor for the physical jobs I'm no longer using, and a Holy Lance to indicate that this is meant for the Dragoon. The jobs I'm using get me through the dungeon without much trouble anyway.

On the other side of the maze is the Crystal Tower. It's called that, rather than Syrcus, as we enter. Incidentally, we could see part of the tower much earlier in the game, when the world was still underwater; it's so tall that it stuck up out of the ocean. Right near the entrance is the door to Eureka, a cave containing the weapons that Unei and Doga died to unseal. Some of the items here are just in regular treasure chests, but others are on pedestals guarded by bosses.

The first of these is the Moonring Blade, a ranged weapon for the Thief or Ninja, guarded by Amon, who looks and fights like Hein. His attacks weren't too bad, and his defense was high, but not so high as to make physical attacks almost useless like they were against Hein, and like Hein, he always became weak to fire when using Barrier Shift. I wonder if there's a bug with that in the PSP version. Next is Masamune, a katana, guarded by Kunoichi, who can cast various high level magic and acts three(!) times per turn. She almost killed me; I won with just Luneth and Ingus alive, and another attack on either of them would have killed them. Third is Excalibur, a sword for the Knight, guarded by General. General used Death on Arc on his first action, but fortunately, it missed. After that, he never did anything too scary. With my chosen jobs, Excalibur is not useful, but at least Refia can throw it at the final boss. There's a shop in the next part of Eureka that sells level 8 spells and extra copies of high level summons, all for enormous amounts of money; I had to sell a lot of old equipment to afford the spells I wanted. The next sealed weapon is Ragnarok, guarded by Guardian. He casts Reflect on himself, which does not protect him from summons or Hasted physical attackers, so he went down easily. Like Excalibur, Ragnarok will be for throwing. Finally, there's the Elder Staff, guarded by Scylla. She uses some really powerful magic, including Flare, which killed Ingus in one hit, dealing almost 4000 damage when my characters are only a little above 2000 HP; the Arise spell I had just bought for both casters immediately came in handy. The Elder Staff casts Cura for free when used as an item, which is pretty awesome. Also, each boss helpfully gives the party a full heal after being defeated, so I could go all out with magic against all of them, and after getting everything here, I can just warp out and save with those items and full everything minus a single level 3 spell charge.

Eureka is kind of anticlimactic when there are no new jobs to get there. The items are still nice, but I probably could have gotten by without them. Doga and Unei didn't have to die just for this!
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
So, to get past the statues with the elemental fangs, you have to be on foot, but once they're all destroyed, you have to go back to the Invincible to fly over the mountains blocking the way to Syrcus Tower. It's a very mild inconvenience at worst, but it still stood out to me. FFIII has the most metroidvania-like progression of any Final Fantasy game, where at many points in the game you can see places that are barred to you, and won't get the item needed to reach them until hours later, and that's making me think about how those barriers are implemented. In this case, you need the Invincible to get the earth fang anyway, so there's no doubt that you have it if you're able to reach the crossable mountain range; it seems unnecessary to make you actually bring it there if you prefer the Nautilus' speed for general airship travel. Similarly, you need the Nautilus to get the Invincible, so there's no game progression reason to make Doga's village reachable only with the Nautilus. There's even a mountain range there that looks small enough to fly over with the Invincible, but you just can't do it for some reason. On the other hand, quirks of the world map like this do serve to make these locations feel more inaccessible, which I appreciate; there's something cool about a town that can only be reached by one ship in the whole world, and a dungeon that can only be reached by a different one ship. I dunno, it's not a big deal at all, I just thought it was noteworthy.

I like the comparison with metroidvanias, when it comes to the opening of the world. It's really neat, and motivated me to go further and further. You are right, there is no gameplay reason to make Dogas Village (for example) unreachable, before you get the Nautilus. But it's another part of the Easter Egg hunt philosophy, I think. You can see this weird village, but can't reach it. What is there? How do you reach it? Especially towns that are so obviously gated off are always motivating for me.

Once he's defeated, the crystal gives us the last set of jobs: Magus, Devout, Summoner, Black Belt, Sage and Ninja. Magus, Devout and Summoner are the upgraded mage jobs as in the original, and Black Belt is the upgraded Monk that got moved to the earth crystal for some reason. Black Belts can use the Boost command to raise the damage of their next attack. Sage can use all types of magic, but its stats aren't as good as Magus or Devout's, and they still get the Evoker summon effects instead of the Summoner ones. They're less of an ultimate magic job and more like an upgrade to Red Mage, though they don't have the physical competence of that job. Ninja is not the ultimate physical job in this version, either; it only gets the equipment formerly restricted to Thief and Dark Knight. Ninja has a Throw command, though, that lets them use weapons of all types as consumable attack items, like ninjas in later games.

I think it makes sense, that there are no ultimate classes in this version. The jobs seem to be more balanced here than in the original, and there seems just more of the idea of jobs bringing different things to the party, and you being able to compose one out of them as you choose. The Famicom version feels more like it wants you to upgrade them, but even there, aside from the starter set and the ultimate jobs, you have a lot of viable options for most of the game.

I'm curious to read about your experience with the final part of the game. I don't think I ever actually beat the DS version.
 

conchobhar

What's Shenmue?
1RXt6Lgr_o.png

Done!

The Crystal Tower is easily the most immense final dungeon I've encountered in an RPG. That you have to first contend with a short dungeon to even reach it; that the first time you enter the tower you'll want to go down, into Eureka, for the ultimate jobs and equipment; that, because Warp doesn't work, you'll need to climb your way out of Eureka; that the ascent features circuituous floor plans; that reaching the top isn't even the end, as you get dumped into the Dark World, with a whole gauntlet of bosses to deal with. It's just a lot. I was very glad to be playing this emulated, just for the ability to take a break… doing this (even just the ascent and Dark World) in one sitting sounds exhausting.

Still, I admire the concept. It certainly leaves an impression and creates a distinctive mood, of really making this feel like the ultimate and final showdown— you, the player, can share in the exhaustion, triumph and relief that the Onion Kids go through. The ending, where the Onion Kids have one last lap around the world as they drop their friends off before returning home, feels really emotionally effective here— sure, basically every FF has a denouement like this, but here it's as if the characters themselves are winding down, just as the player surely is (I was, at least).

Though I will say that the whole endgame is way tougher than it needs to be. I'm not talking about the length of the excursion, or the lack of save points, but how the end-game bosses seem perfectly designed to gank players. Ahriman can easily wipe an unsuspecting player on the first round— and even a prepared one will have a tough time. Two-Headed Dragon is a nothing fight that's effectively a check of if you have enough Raise charges or Phoenix Downs. And Cloud of Darkness… Cloud of Darkness' attacks so completely outpace your healing that if you don't have enough max HP to start with, it is an unwinnable battle. The solution to all of these is, obviously, get some more levels— but there isn't a particularly quick way to do that by this point of the game. And as someone who is invariably underlevelled in RPGs (not intentionally; it just seems to work out that way), you can imagine how irritating this was for me. But I did grind out the levels (probably more than I needed to, actually, but I wasn't taking any chances), so I guess I can't really get too upset here.

Putting all that aside, I think this is a good game, and a very interesting one. Felix, earlier in the thread you described it as the first game in the series to feel "like Final Fantasy", and I agree. That is not a criticism of FF1 or FF2, which are both games I like very much because of how they stand apart from the latter games, and even each other; but it's fascinating to see how FF3 synthesized those approaches, while also bringing some of its own ideas, and how it resulted in something very much in-line with what we perceive as the series' core identity— as if watching the series evolve in real time. I also spy a lot of groundwork for FF4… from character capabilities (I don't think you get Rosa without first having the ranger) to story elements (a second world with a second set of crystals sure feels like a rough draft for FF4's own conception of the crystals). A very, very influential entry in the series, to be sure.

But FF3 shines brightest in the concepts that didn't carry over and remain wholly its own. For example, the job system. Obviously jobs have re-appeared, but never like this, where each job presents a static and complete 'idea', to be swapped to for one particular purpose and abandoned when it no longer matters. Subsequent games would more or less abandon this idea, instead using the job system as a way to build the ultimate character… and while I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other, the way FF3 treats them as puzzle pieces is certainly a fun implementation. On the story side of things, the way FF3 treats light and darkness not as stand-ins for "good" and "evil" but as two forces that must remain in balance, and offers a counterpart to the heroes in the Dark Warriors who fought off the destructive powers of the Light, is genuinely fascinating and it boggles the mind that (FF14 aside, apparently) the series never revisited nor expanded upon it— sticking only to the Light Warriors. But it does give FF3 that extra bit of character, so I suppose that's a nice consolation.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Congrats!

The Crystal Tower is easily the most immense final dungeon I've encountered in an RPG. That you have to first contend with a short dungeon to even reach it; that the first time you enter the tower you'll want to go down, into Eureka, for the ultimate jobs and equipment; that, because Warp doesn't work, you'll need to climb your way out of Eureka; that the ascent features circuituous floor plans; that reaching the top isn't even the end, as you get dumped into the Dark World, with a whole gauntlet of bosses to deal with. It's just a lot. I was very glad to be playing this emulated, just for the ability to take a break… doing this (even just the ascent and Dark World) in one sitting sounds exhausting.

Yeah, I understand why it is so infamous. They just build up these final dungeons more and more, as the first three games go on. With FF I, the difference to the other dungeons doesn't seem that big, but in FF II already, you just go on and on, directly into hell, fighting all kinds of demons, if you so choose. Until you are at a place, where space doesn't exist anymore, in the way we are accustomed to it.

FF III goes even further, and just takes long, and even forces you to beat a bunch of bosses. It really feels like you are going into the very center of a place that is completely antagonistic towards you.

The savestates of FF IV change this dynamic, you aren't completely on your own in there. But I'm curious if the moon would be even harsher and longer, if it weren't for that.

Still, I admire the concept. It certainly leaves an impression and creates a distinctive mood, of really making this feel like the ultimate and final showdown— you, the player, can share in the exhaustion, triumph and relief that the Onion Kids go through. The ending, where the Onion Kids have one last lap around the world as they drop their friends off before returning home, feels really emotionally effective here— sure, basically every FF has a denouement like this, but here it's as if the characters themselves are winding down, just as the player surely is (I was, at least).

The ending was really nice. You beat the game, and we see a bit of everyone going home, until a new light starts a new, brighter time. It's a lovely ending.

Putting all that aside, I think this is a good game, and a very interesting one. Felix, earlier in the thread you described it as the first game in the series to feel "like Final Fantasy", and I agree. That is not a criticism of FF1 or FF2, which are both games I like very much because of how they stand apart from the latter games, and even each other; but it's fascinating to see how FF3 synthesized those approaches, while also bringing some of its own ideas, and how it resulted in something very much in-line with what we perceive as the series' core identity— as if watching the series evolve in real time. I also spy a lot of groundwork for FF4… from character capabilities (I don't think you get Rosa without first having the ranger) to story elements (a second world with a second set of crystals sure feels like a rough draft for FF4's own conception of the crystals). A very, very influential entry in the series, to be sure.

The crystals feel something, that Square just didn't want to revisit without a new twist, so we get the idea expanded upon in each game they appear. But yeah, I think I mentioned that the jobs feel a lot like the people thought about which jobs they could add, and that would easily lead to "oh, there is obviously a story that could be told with that in mind". Or just general, that you could tell a more expanded and nuanced story, if you gave every character a fixed job, that would tell us a bit about them. The Magic / Dark Knight seems the most obvious one, with the bow-wielding White Mage that is Rosa being also an evolution of the works of FF III, as you said (how would someone attack who is always in the back row? A bow, of course!)

Another example seems to be the Dragoon, who is, from a gameplay standpoint, mainly a loner. He does high damage, but does nothing to support his fellow team members. Which, with a bit of switching things around a bit, works for Kain too.

On the story side of things, the way FF3 treats light and darkness not as stand-ins for "good" and "evil" but as two forces that must remain in balance, and offers a counterpart to the heroes in the Dark Warriors who fought off the destructive powers of the Light, is genuinely fascinating and it boggles the mind that (FF14 aside, apparently) the series never revisited nor expanded upon it— sticking only to the Light Warriors. But it does give FF3 that extra bit of character, so I suppose that's a nice consolation.

The concept of "Your enemy isn't evil, it's just your dark counterpart" is super compelling, and I wished they had expended on it a bit here. Or did something more with it in later games. It offers itself as something more nuanced, than just the straight-up bad guy destroying everything. Considering how much I like FF stories in general, I'm sure they could have done something very interesting with that. Something that comes to mind immediately would be to give you your "evil" counterparts as a rival team, that gets stronger alongside with you, because they fight basically their version of the same battle. Until you understand each other, and learn to fight together. And suddenly, you have two times the team members. Something like that, I just really enjoy it, when enemies become friends, or at least coworkers, later on.

Or you just play as the Warriors of Darkness, exploring the idea what "Too much Light" really means.
 

Super Megaman X

dead eyes
(He/Him)
Something that comes to mind immediately would be to give you your "evil" counterparts as a rival team, that gets stronger alongside with you, because they fight basically their version of the same battle. Until you understand each other, and learn to fight together. And suddenly, you have two times the team members. Something like that, I just really enjoy it, when enemies become friends, or at least coworkers, later on.
And something similar to this happens in Final Fantasy Dimensions. The rival team isn't "evil", but you are broken up into 2 teams: Warriors of Light, and Warriors of Darkness, each with their own unique job classes, and uses the job system from 5. FFD is a very underrated game.
 
I just finished it too!

The crystal tower is a long dungeon, but it's not that hard. It does have some big rooms that take a bit of running around to see where the way forward is while making sure not to miss any treasure, but the enemies aren't too dangerous. A lot of them are recolored bosses from earlier, and like those bosses, they attack twice per turn. On the last few floors, there are dragons that have tons of HP and very strong attacks, but they drop elixirs, so you can treat them like bosses and pop elixirs to restore spell charges if you have to. At the top, we get trapped in a cursed mirror, and Doga summons five people with hearts of light whom we met along the way to break the curse: Princess Sara, Cid, Desch, King Alus and one of the fake light warriors. Sara, Cid, Desch and Alus come specifically to help Ingus, Luneth, Refia and Arc, respectively; Sara and Alus I understand, but I didn't think there was any special connection between Cid and Luneth or Desch and Refia. Also, it's kind of weird that only one of the fake light warriors gets to go. He doesn't even have a real name; the game just refers to him as "Gramps". Oh, and the party only hears Doga's voice for the moment, but he appears in person to the five NPCs, so I guess even his body that we killed isn't really dead?

Anyway, with the curse broken, we enter the mirror and finally meet Xande. There isn't much drama to it now that we're face to face with him, just a surprisingly easy boss. But of course, Xande isn't the real final boss. As he dies, he says that the darkness is already here. He actually says that his death means nothing, even though his whole reason for doing everything he did was to avoid dying, so I guess this means the darkness has really taken him over completely at this point. And sure enough, the Cloud of Darkness emerges from the dark world. Even though their screen time is limited, they make a hell of an entrance, introducing themselves with the royal we and attacking us in a scripted fight where they wait until the end of the turn and then use Particle Beam for 9999 damage to the party.

Doga and Unei, who also shows up now, use their power to revive us and send us off into the dark world. We can't go back or warp out, so this is a true point of no return. It's also not immediately clear what the goal is here, but there are four teleporters near the entrance, and each of them leads to a small maze with a single chest and another teleporter. The chests all contain Ribbons, a head armor with excellent defense and full status immunity. They are guarded by Xande clones. There were clones of Unei in the Ancient Maze, and clones of Doga in the tower as well, among the random monsters in those dungeons. There's no explanation for why they're there or why they exist at all, but my pet theory is that Xande was experimenting with clone bodies as a way to achieve immortality without freezing time for the whole world, and was going to offer them to his fellow apprentices as well.

On the other side of each of these areas is a dark crystal guarded by a boss, and upon defeating each of these bosses, we meet one of the dark warriors who saved the world from being destroyed by light 1000 years ago. The dark warriors look great, with dark red armor including big horned helmets that cover most of their faces, except for their mouths, which are perpetually scowling. They don't give their names, but we can guess which element each one represented by the color of the crystal they come out of. The water one says that the Cloud of Darkness had appeared in their time as well, when the threat came from the light, so despite their name, I guess the Cloud isn't an agent of the darkness per se. The earth one likens the connection between light and darkness to the world and the sun, and says that Xande broke that connection to make a world without time. He also confirms that Xande was being controlled by the Cloud of Darkness. The fire one says that Xande flooding the world cut off two of the crystals from the light and darkness, which birthed the Cloud, who tried to seal the remaining two, on the floating continent; so it was the Cloud, not Xande, who caused the earthquake at the beginning. The wind one says that light and darkness are attracted to each other, but destroy each other if they come into contact, leaving behind the Void from which the world arose. The world's eventual return to the Void is inevitable, but it can be held off by our hope.

The bosses guarding each crystal are Echidna, who can inflict stone and instant death; Ahriman, who inflicts stone very frequently with its physical attack, and also uses strong black magic; Two-Headed Dragon, who exclusively uses extremely powerful physical attacks; and Cerberus, who acts three times per turn and uses various damaging spells along with normal attacks. That's the order I fought them in my successful attempt; the first time I got here, I fought Cerberus second and he killed me. I do think dying and having to go through the tower again is part of the Authentic Final Fantasy III Experience, but I'm glad I didn't have to experience it more than once. I changed my jobs around for the winning attempt, too. Refia and Arc remained Ninja and Sage, but Luneth switched back to Knight so he could actually use the crystal armor set and the swords from Eureka, and Ingus became a Devout. It made a huge difference; Luneth hit about as hard as a Knight as Ingus had as a Black Belt, but took much less damage, and he covered other characters at key moments, too.

Once all the dark warriors are freed from their crystals, we can enter the central part of the dark world. The path in this area looks pretty cool, with small shafts of light pointing out which way to go on platforms that only appear when we're almost on top of them. At the end of the path is the Cloud of Darkness, who says we can't defeat them with only the power of light, but the warriors of darkness show up behind us and charge into the Cloud. They disappear, but I guess they do enough damage that it's possible for us to win now? Also, they said something about us having destroyed the crystals of darkness, but they were totally still intact, we just freed the warriors of darkness from them. I'm not sure what that was about. Anyway, it's time for the real final battle!

The Cloud of Darkness has two independently targetable tentacles in addition to their main body. The tentacles cast Protect on the body and use Bad Breath, which inflicts many status ailments that a Ribbon prevents; it did hit Luneth a couple of times, though, since I didn't want to lower his defense by equipping a Ribbon. One tentacle is weak to physical attacks but immune to magic, while the other is the other way around. The Cloud themself has two actions in addition to the ones from the tentacles, and uses strong physical attacks and Particle Beam, which is no longer an instant party wipe, but still does enough damage to wipe us out if they use it twice before we can heal. Particle Beam becomes more common as the fight goes on. Their turn order is as random as other bosses', so there were a couple of times where getting wiped out was a possibility, but it never happened. I killed the physical-weak tentacle first, then had Refia and Luneth attacking the body while Arc attacked the other tentacle with magic whenever he didn't need to heal, which ended up not being very often, and wasn't enough to kill the tentacle before the main body, but once the body was dead, the fight was over.

After beating the Cloud, there's a cutscene with a starfield and some text about the power of hope, and then we're back. We fly around the world, dropping off each of the five NPCs who broke the mirror's curse. "Gramps" and the rest of the fake light warriors say we should come back and train with them some time, if we can keep up; Alus vows to be as strong in serving the people of Saronia as the light warriors, and waves goodbye to Arc; Cid comes home to his wife (who has never been given a name other than "Mrs. Cid"), Desch goes back to Canaan with him and promises to stay with Salina (I didn't realize it until now, but Salina has a unique character model. I don't think you see her up close at any other point in the game, or doing anything but lying in bed for that matter, so I didn't even recognize her here until the text window said her name). Sara confesses to Ingus, and he says he'll stay with her forever, so we don't take her back to Sasune; instead, she comes with us to Ur. A nice touch during this whole sequence is that the airships we ride on "downgrade" as we go; we take the Invincible as far as Saronia, then switch to the Nautilus to go to Canaan, then to Cid's old airship. Also, the airships only fly in the four cardinal directions here, even though they're not limited to those directions in this version.

When we return to Ur, Luneth and Arc reunite with Topapa, Nina, their foster mother and the other kids from the village. The light of the crystals returns, visibly brightening the screen. This wasn't a game with a particularly dark color palette to begin with, so it looks a bit too bright now. There's a CG shot of what I guess is the mountain where the wind crystal is, and then the credits roll while the party members and important NPCs show off their animations in the background.

There's a prompt to save your clear data after the ending, and loading that save drops you back at the Invincible, outside the Ancient Maze. I might check later to see if there's anything new to do with a clear save, but right now I'm just glad to have finished the marathon that is FFIII's endgame. This was a lot of fun!
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
This is exactly what happens in FFXIV: Shadowbringers

It's one of the reasons why I definitely will play through FF XIV at some point. It might be a good way to (never) end this project: Playing up to the XIII-trilogy, maybe include XV (if I have a new PC than, that can handle it) and then use this thread to talk about my experience with XIV. An intriguing thought, at least.

And something similar to this happens in Final Fantasy Dimensions. The rival team isn't "evil", but you are broken up into 2 teams: Warriors of Light, and Warriors of Darkness, each with their own unique job classes, and uses the job system from 5. FFD is a very underrated game.

I either never heard of this game, or just ignored it, because it's a mobile game. Might be worth checking out, at some point.

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Congrats, gorha! Special ones in your case too, doing this stuff in one sitting is intense.

Sara, Cid, Desch and Alus come specifically to help Ingus, Luneth, Refia and Arc, respectively; Sara and Alus I understand, but I didn't think there was any special connection between Cid and Luneth or Desch and Refia. Also, it's kind of weird that only one of the fake light warriors gets to go. He doesn't even have a real name; the game just refers to him as "Gramps". Oh, and the party only hears Doga's voice for the moment, but he appears in person to the five NPCs, so I guess even his body that we killed isn't really dead?

I guess Doga was so powerful, that his spirit can still manifest itself for some time.

The game tried to create small relationships in the original, at least with Sarah and Desch. But I think it was always with the first person in your party. I don't know about the remake, but they way you talk about it, it probably wasn't that different.

The fake light warrior was a nice callback, but yeah, it doesn't make much sense. Would have been simpler to just have four mirrors.

Anyway, with the curse broken, we enter the mirror and finally meet Xande. There isn't much drama to it now that we're face to face with him, just a surprisingly easy boss. But of course, Xande isn't the real final boss. As he dies, he says that the darkness is already here. He actually says that his death means nothing, even though his whole reason for doing everything he did was to avoid dying, so I guess this means the darkness has really taken him over completely at this point. And sure enough, the Cloud of Darkness emerges from the dark world. Even though their screen time is limited, they make a hell of an entrance, introducing themselves with the royal we and attacking us in a scripted fight where they wait until the end of the turn and then use Particle Beam for 9999 damage to the party.

For me, Xande was a real roadblock, and did way too much damage with Meteo, or whatever it was called. I don't know if the ultimate classes made the difference, or just my additional levels after Heureka, but it was way more doable the second time. Still not trivial, though.

The CoD also didn't do straight up 9999 damage. It's damage was high, but still survivable. The problem was, that she was just invincible.

The bosses guarding each crystal are Echidna, who can inflict stone and instant death; Ahriman, who inflicts stone very frequently with its physical attack, and also uses strong black magic; Two-Headed Dragon, who exclusively uses extremely powerful physical attacks; and Cerberus, who acts three times per turn and uses various damaging spells along with normal attacks. That's the order I fought them in my successful attempt; the first time I got here, I fought Cerberus second and he killed me. I do think dying and having to go through the tower again is part of the Authentic Final Fantasy III Experience, but I'm glad I didn't have to experience it more than once. I changed my jobs around for the winning attempt, too. Refia and Arc remained Ninja and Sage, but Luneth switched back to Knight so he could actually use the crystal armor set and the swords from Eureka, and Ingus became a Devout. It made a huge difference; Luneth hit about as hard as a Knight as Ingus had as a Black Belt, but took much less damage, and he covered other characters at key moments, too.

As I mentioned, I never made it through the final dungeon. The first time, I just went up to the CoD and died, of course. Not understanding why I couldn't even scratch her, and probably why her attack did max damage, I just gave up. I think I had no internet at the time, so I had no idea what to do about this. I think I did explore the dungeon itself a bit at my second try (or maybe that was at my second playthrough), but also died horribly against the other bosses, or was horrified to find out, that there was no easy way of healing. I definitely experienced this the second time, where I had forgotten about the final part.

At least that's how I remember it. I'm pretty sure that I fought against the CoD, without fighting the other bosses.

The Cloud of Darkness has two independently targetable tentacles in addition to their main body. The tentacles cast Protect on the body and use Bad Breath, which inflicts many status ailments that a Ribbon prevents; it did hit Luneth a couple of times, though, since I didn't want to lower his defense by equipping a Ribbon. One tentacle is weak to physical attacks but immune to magic, while the other is the other way around. The Cloud themself has two actions in addition to the ones from the tentacles, and uses strong physical attacks and Particle Beam, which is no longer an instant party wipe, but still does enough damage to wipe us out if they use it twice before we can heal. Particle Beam becomes more common as the fight goes on. Their turn order is as random as other bosses', so there were a couple of times where getting wiped out was a possibility, but it never happened. I killed the physical-weak tentacle first, then had Refia and Luneth attacking the body while Arc attacked the other tentacle with magic whenever he didn't need to heal, which ended up not being very often, and wasn't enough to kill the tentacle before the main body, but once the body was dead, the fight was over.

Interesting. In the original, there is just the CoD, the tentacles don't do anything. This sounds quite a bit more involved than the Famicom version of the fight.

A nice touch during this whole sequence is that the airships we ride on "downgrade" as we go; we take the Invincible as far as Saronia, then switch to the Nautilus to go to Canaan, then to Cid's old airship. Also, the airships only fly in the four cardinal directions here, even though they're not limited to those directions in this version.

I think the change of airships happens in the original too, but I'm already not sure anymore. Using Cids airship is interesting, it has to be a new one, right? The old one was blown to pieces above that big town (Saronia?), if my memory is correct.

There's a prompt to save your clear data after the ending, and loading that save drops you back at the Invincible, outside the Ancient Maze. I might check later to see if there's anything new to do with a clear save, but right now I'm just glad to have finished the marathon that is FFIII's endgame. This was a lot of fun!

Please report back, if there is anything new. :)

Thanks for playing that version, and talking about the differences here. It's really interesting how the game was modernised and just changed, while still keeping it a very old-school game. I'm glad you had fun with this version too.

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Well, with FF III wrapped up, I'll soon start playing FF IV. I'm very much looking forward to playing more FF.
 

Super Megaman X

dead eyes
(He/Him)
I either never heard of this game, or just ignored it, because it's a mobile game. Might be worth checking out, at some point.
It is a mobile game, which is probably most of the reason why it's as underrated as it is. I understand the apathy, as since the day it came out I always wished it would come to a console and have, you know, button-inputs. But it's certainly very playable on a screen. It's also unique among mobile offerings in that it's essentially a "regular console" type FF, the console it released on being mobile. It's a one-time payment, and for that you get a full-length full featured 30-40 hour game.
 

conchobhar

What's Shenmue?
I changed my jobs around for the winning attempt, too. Refia and Arc remained Ninja and Sage, but Luneth switched back to Knight so he could actually use the crystal armor set and the swords from Eureka, and Ingus became a Devout. It made a huge difference; Luneth hit about as hard as a Knight as Ingus had as a Black Belt, but took much less damage, and he covered other characters at key moments, too.

The Cloud of Darkness has two independently targetable tentacles in addition to their main body. The tentacles cast Protect on the body and use Bad Breath, which inflicts many status ailments that a Ribbon prevents; it did hit Luneth a couple of times, though, since I didn't want to lower his defense by equipping a Ribbon.
I know you've talked about the the remake tweaks and rebalanced things before, but I find it very interesting how that rebalancing completely changes the context of the endgame loot. In the original, ninjas can equip everything, so everything you find is just a straight upgrade; but in the context of the remake, all these swords and armour strongly push the player towards making someone a knight (as you did). Meanwhile, those ribbons are basically superfluous in the original, as there aren't any status effects to worry about at this stage— their only benefit is the defence bonus for a sage, so I grabbed a single one and left the other three alone— but they sound practically essential in the remake now that Cloud of Darkness spews Bad Breath.

I don't really have a big point here (given you've already noted some of this), but I just think it's neat. What changes there are were clearly made with thought and consideration.
 
The CoD also didn't do straight up 9999 damage. It's damage was high, but still survivable. The problem was, that she was just invincible.
Oh yeah, the Cloud was invincible in that first fight as well, but there would be no way to beat them before they wiped us out anyway. I tried attacking the tentacles instead the second time, and they did take damage, but I don't think it would be possible to kill one in one round. I actually like this change, as it limits the amount of items the player could waste if they thought it might be possible to win.

I think the change of airships happens in the original too, but I'm already not sure anymore. Using Cids airship is interesting, it has to be a new one, right? The old one was blown to pieces above that big town (Saronia?), if my memory is correct.
Now that I'm thinking about it more, I'm not sure it was Cid's ship. It still looked like the Nautilus, but it wasn't moving as fast anymore, and the Nautilus' speed was its defining feature to me. You're right, Cid's ship was destroyed, so it would be strange if it reappeared in the ending.

I know you've talked about the the remake tweaks and rebalanced things before, but I find it very interesting how that rebalancing completely changes the context of the endgame loot. In the original, ninjas can equip everything, so everything you find is just a straight upgrade; but in the context of the remake, all these swords and armour strongly push the player towards making someone a knight (as you did). Meanwhile, those ribbons are basically superfluous in the original, as there aren't any status effects to worry about at this stage— their only benefit is the defence bonus for a sage, so I grabbed a single one and left the other three alone— but they sound practically essential in the remake now that Cloud of Darkness spews Bad Breath.
Yeah, the value of endgame equipment and jobs is very different in the remake. There's a Fuma Garb in the tower and another in Eureka, which are the best armor available for Ninja, but in the original they'd be obsoleted by Crystal Mail. On the other hand, there's a second set of crystal gear in chests near the top of the tower, but without any weapons for the heavy armor jobs on par with the Excalibur and Ragnarok, there doesn't seem to be much use for it, while in the original it would be a welcome upgrade for your other Ninja. Maybe there are some strong spears and hammers to steal from the dark world bosses or something. And the Ribbons are definitely important in this version. If I were going to do this again, I'd use all four; the scariest thing that happened in the final battle was Luneth getting hit by Bad Breath and turned into a frog, then killed in one hit by a physical attack. Taking a little more damage the rest of the time would be worth it to avoid that situation. The Black Belt seems like the biggest loser in the remake, since you get it so late and it's only really useful in the Ancient Maze and maybe Eureka. I guess you could say the same about the earth crystal mage jobs in the original, though.
 
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