Final Fantasy VII Rebirth

[SpoonyBard]

And finished. I wound up giving up on that summon battle that was giving me trouble and decided to ignore all the sidequests and just bee-line to the end. And boy, that penultimate chapter was a doozy and the final one after it was a spectacle.

I have a bunch of thoughts I really want to get out there but I can't articulate em yet, plus I do want to go back and start clearing off all those sidequests I ignored to rush to the end so I might wait until after that. But I still have one thing to say about the super big end-of-game spoiler:

Spoiler: Seriously this is an END OF GAME spoiler no joking

I have to give kudos to SE, they took the fact that Aerith dies, one of the oldest and most notorious gaming spoilers there is to the point that saying so is a joke, and made it an actual spoiler again. Because while, yeah, she does die (again) the fact that she might not have is enough to keep people tight lipped about it and not want to spoil that Aerith dies, in the year twenty goddamn twenty four.

Masterful troll. Well done.

 

[Solitayre]

Spoiler: Massive ending spoiler, do not read

One word.

Respect.

 

[gogglebob]

I am saving it for the ol' website, as I do not want to dominate this thread with "ending discussion" at this juncture, but I have so much to say about the ending.

Though to be absolutely clear: I like it.

 

[FelixSH]

I haven't played this game, or Remake, and will not be able to play in the near future more multiple reasons. Still was curious, read the wikipedia article about the story. But it didn't answer something that I heard about in the Axe of the Bloodgod podcast episodes. Can someone spoil me, please?

Kat and Nadia talked about a republic, that doesn't exist anymore, I guess. I'd like to know at least where it is. It can't be Wutai, the wikipedia article wrote about how the relation with Shinra got worse in this game, implying that it's still a free country. The more details, the better, but I'd at least like to know where that republic was, and at least a bit info how it fell, if so provided by the game. If someone would be so nice to tell me.

I know, would be better if I played it myself, and so on. I'd still like to know now.

 

[YangusKhan]

I reached Chapter 12 a couple days ago and have been going around completing all the side content and mini-games that I can stomach. I've pretty much finished everything I want to do before going forward with the story; the biggest stuff left is Battle/Chocobo Square and the Queen's Blood challenges at the Gold Saucer. I imagine there's not a whole lot of side content left to be unlocked at this point... but the game still isn't letting me reach the end of the protorelic quests.

 

[Peklo]

Can someone spoil me, please?

One of Shinra's imperialist wars--earlier than their war with Wutai--was against the Junon Republic, some decades before the game's present. The fortress-like Junon you visit in the game isn't where their prior hub of government used to be; rather it was situated on a floating city of sorts as it was a seafaring society. Shinra sank it, alongside other parts of their fleet and general ship reserves--you can visit the wrecks and prior battlefields along the coastline that the Junon region in the game is depicted through.

 

[FelixSH]

Thanks.

 

[Oathbreaker]

I haven't been able to play as much as I'd originally planned to this month but god I love this game. What few things about Remake's combat I thought could use some work are all vastly improved and aerial combat is just good now. It's wonderful. The biggest thing I didn't expect was just how much more considered Cloud's punisher mode feels now. In Remake there was rarely a reason NOT to use it and as a result I got even more comfortable with it than his basic attacks. Now I'm using it to actually punish enemies and have settled all the way back into his non-punisher moveset and it feels SO GOOD.

The world design I'm also finding I enjoy a lot more than I expected to. The only minor annoyance is I wanna go fast, but the chocobo likes to get caught on some odd terrain every so often. The one thing I wish was not a thing is the map fog. Same issue with it as in Ghost of Tsushima where even when you reveal a bunch of it by clearing an objective it won't show everything without getting out there and manually uncovering it. Just have the towers reveal the entirety of the map once they're all done, PLEASE. It's my own personal problem but ooooooooo just lemme see the whole map dangit.

Otherwise I just started Chapter 7 and resonate pretty strongly with your big post so far, Peklo. Rebirth may not be miraculous in and of itself but if I still feel this positively about it by the end of the game and then Part 3 sticks the landing then this Remake trilogy will fully occupy my top three favorite videogame spots unless I count them all together as one.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I always forget to use Punisher much, I tend to concentrate on basic attacks and then the ol' Double Braver if I want to beat something down fast.

I agree on the fog. I wouldn't mind it if it all cleared at some point, but the way it stays on areas you can't reach makes it hard to tell which areas you simply haven't reached.

 

[Peklo]

Being on the other side of this game now, I will say that one of the few ways it genuinely upset me was that the English localization actively refuses to acknowledge and incorporate the appropriate pronunciation for Cait Sith's name. The character has been portrayed with a Scottish accent and lexicon since, what, Advent Children, and prominently here, so the willful ignorance in erasing that part of him while clearly playing up the cultural roots in other ways just sucks.

 

[SpoonyBard]

I agree there. It absolutely would have been weird for a while to hear all the characters call him 'Ket Shee' after mentally pronouncing his name as Cait Sith for all these years but it's how it should be and I would have gotten used to it in time.

I will say his voice and accent are downright delightful however.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

It's a dumb choice, but it feels calculated? Like, they decided yes, we would rather not upset the legions of people who default onto saying "sith" instead of "shee" because of ignorance, than remain culturally honest/respectful.

Either way, it's just one of about a billion things about the "localization" of the game I'm not a fan of, and I'm eternally grateful I don't have to listen to it anymore now that it's [current year] and we can have multi-language audio tracks in games now.

I feel like there are at least one or two times during any given cutscene in this game where the localized script chooses to word things in such a baffling way to the point of distraction. Like, why is Cloud cursing right now? His language in the original script might be terse but it's not profane. It adds such a weird, juvenile layer to the game that I'm glad I can somewhat launder out of the experience on my own.

A growing trend in recent years in anime localization is that companies will have multiple English subtitle tracks, one that's a "dubtitle" that will display whatever is said verbatim by the localization voice actors for closed captioning purposes, and another subtitle track that's more literal, meant to be coupled with the original JP audio. I wish games would pick up on that trend too, because it's really nice to have those options and would lead to a much less jarring experience.

 

[Bongo]

He was in the army; it's hardly implausible for him to have a potty mouth.

 

[4-So]

Adults talking like adults in serious situations is not scandalous. Considering Cloud's mental state and the things he is made to endure during the run time of this game, I'm highly skeptical that uttering the occasional four-letter word of old Anglo-Saxon fame is somehow juvenile or ill-fitting.

 

[gogglebob]

I would like to note that (Corel Mountain Spoilers) Elena calling the party "shitbirds" told me everything I ever needed to know about her character.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

It's not about plausibility. It's about changing the tenor/tone of a scene - and what that does to the story/characters as a whole when it's done over and over again. A character who curses and uses vulgarities all of the time is going to leave a different impression from one who doesn't. It's just weird editorializing that changes the tenor of what's going on. Cloud is a very naive, almost innocent character. It's super weird for me to hear him say pretty innocent stuff, and then read subtitles that have him cursing.

This kind of stuff happens a lot, all over the game. Like the idea that he's a "mercenary" - being a merc has has some very strong, negative, and violent implications in English. And it's weird and discordant that he's a "mercenary" whose jobs are all like fetch quests and stuff. In Japanese though, he's a "なんでも屋" which better translates into a "jack of all trades" -- as it literally means "seller/business of anything". It's a much more neutral term that might include some unsavory activities, but doesn't always have to, and is more likely to entail stuff like mowing people's lawns or getting a cat out of a tree. And it makes a LOT more sense in the context of what goes on in the game when he's doing fetch quests because that's the kind of things he SHOULD be doing if he's going to call himself that. Being a Nandemoya is also a lot more in line with the dreams he inherited from Zack of wanting to be a hero who does good things.

 

[Solitayre]

Cloud was literally hired by terrorists to be their muscle while they did a bombing mission. You can argue he was doing a favor for a friend, and Remake definitely tried to soften AVALANCHE a bit, but let's not be coy about what Cloud's job is.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Cloud was literally hired by terrorists to be their muscle while they did a bombing mission. You can argue he was doing a favor for a friend, and Remake definitely tried to soften AVALANCHE a bit, but let's not be coy about what Cloud's job is.

I did a little digging because this doesn't sit right with me. Cloud's career ambitions - vis-a-vis Zack - in even the original game's original script is to become a Jack of all Trades, not a Mercenary. Seems like the whole thing is an artifact of the old '97 localization (which was notoriously not great):

The entire joke here is Zack asks the old guy giving them a lift what he should do once he gets to Midgar - the old guy is like, "You should do everything (nandemo) while you're young". And Zack is like, that's a great idea -- I'll be a Jack of all Trades (Nandemoya) who will take any job even if it's troublesome or dangerous. And the joke is he misheard the driver (or at least that's what the driver thinks). It's a very different tenor than a Mercenary that has only negative connotations, and it fits Zack's personality so much better since he's an upbeat, positive, idealistic guy who wants to be a hero. He hasn't forgotten who he is, nor has his personality changed, so it's a weird and bad change to have him decide I'll be jackboot thug for hire after escaping the organization of jackboot thugs.

Cloud takes on on helping terrorists to help a friend. I'd also argue he also does it subconsciously for revenge against Shinra. Cloud lost more than Zack had and has more reasons to be resentful and jaded, which is why he's so resentful and jaded at the onset of the game, while Zack is still himself in the flashbacks. But through it all, he's harangued into doing such dirty work because, "You'll do anything, right Mr Do Anything?" Which is the same reason why he does all the goofy/silly/asinine shit in both games too. Because that's his job - to do anything - not just being a merc. Cloud bristles against this idea repeatedly because he hasn't fully internalized Zack's mindset, and he's still trying to set out to be a badass/Soldier/Zack. But it's very clear in the original what he's supposed to be and a Merc ain't it.

 

[Oathbreaker]

With how ridiculously common swearing is in my personal lexicon and the speaking habits of almost everyone I personally know in meatspace, I hardly think the tone of a scene is changed by it. It was the closest it will ever be to shocking when they had Aerith say shit before you finish climbing over the rooftops with her, but I still wouldn't call it out of character or misplaced in the scene. Everything since then comes off as just sort of how they speak. Something something it's a good localization barring the pronunciation of Caith Sith which is so far the only thing I'd call a big mistake between both games.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Been working through all the content I still have to do. Finished Queensblood and defeated that summon that was giving me trouble. I had Yuffie as my party lead and basically played keep-away for most of the fight, throwing out debuffs, Bio, and her Shooting Star ability when I could.

I'd say that fight is comparable to Hell House from Remake, in that it's a shocking spike in difficulty that requires you to pay attention to systems you might have been sleepwalking through up till then. Thankfully this time it was not in the mandatory story path.

Now I'm working on sidequests and have realized I have a whole lot of Chocobo Racing to do.

 

[Solitayre]

I will concede its really hard to judge anything about Cloud from the opening scenes, because his behavior there is wildly at odds with how he acts for the rest of the game.

 

[YangusKhan]

It's a very different tenor than a Mercenary that has only negative connotations

See I think the fact that these games use the term "merc" over and over to describe Cloud's (and Zack's) job does a lot of work to make the reader realize that "mercenary" in this universe isn't really the same thing as "mercenary" in the real world. Additionally, I can't really think of a succinct term in English that fits closer to "jack of all trades." Also, there's something to how the localization shortened "mercenary" to "merc" because to me it makes it feel a lot more casual. Like... I don't even know if anyone's used the full word "mercenary" at all in Rebirth.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

Yeah, I don't think the term "merc" in the context of the game carries nearly the negative connotation it does for something like, say, Blackwater in the real world. Not least because the prevailing government and military of the world IS something like Blackwater. An independent merc and former SOLDIER is explicitly not aligned with them in this setting.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

See I think the fact that these games use the term "merc" over and over to describe Cloud's (and Zack's) job does a lot of work to make the reader realize that "mercenary" in this universe isn't really the same thing as "mercenary" in the real world. Additionally, I can't really think of a succinct term in English that fits closer to "jack of all trades." Also, there's something to how the localization shortened "mercenary" to "merc" because to me it makes it feel a lot more casual. Like... I don't even know if anyone's used the full word "mercenary" at all in Rebirth.

I think that read is being a little overly generous, for what is ultimately a shoddy translation. The term 'Nandemoya' - like a lot of Japanese - doesn't have an easy, 1:1, perfect translation. Especially one that preserves the wordplay/puns that is built into the original script. Any recontexualizing/redefining of what "merc" means is wholly up to the reader, having to intuit through repeated context of his actions/activities not lining up with the actual, concrete definition of the word in our language. And as I think has been demonstrated in this very thread, the meanings of words have meanings that when misapplied, can give a very different impression to people of what is going on.

Admittedly I don't have a great alternative to 'mercenary' as a translation. 'Jack of all Trades' sounds awkward, but would have been better than something with such violent and evil connotations. Even something like an 'entrepreneur' or a 'handyman' would have been a better fit. But I highly suspect the whole point of rebranding Cloud as a 'mercenary' was to make the character sound cool/badass to Western audiences. Which honestly is a mentality that informs a LOT of localization across this industry, but particularly in the 90s.

 

[YangusKhan]

Even something like an 'entrepreneur' or a 'handyman' would have been a better fit.

I wouldn't call a person who helps terrorists blow up a reactor for money a "handyman" or "entrepreneur."

 

[Sarcasmorator]

Nor would I. He fights for money! That's how he's introduced. FF7R expands that into him fighting monsters on behalf of citizens since he has a big sword, and taking other odd jobs since he wants money.

 

[Lokii]

"Adventurer."

 

[YangusKhan]

There's also a bit of an arc that happens in Rebirth specifically where he softens up quite a bit in terms of "who he is and what he does" with things like him and other party members joking about doing odd jobs but only if they pay him 2000 gil.

 

[Regulus]

I don't think there's a better English choice that wouldn't also affect the tone in a completely different way.

Merc works fine; like many words in the english language, it actually doesn't have an "actual, concrete definition" that can't be stretched by context. Cloud's constructed persona is motivated by financial gain ("it'll cost you"), and he's willing to take on jobs that range from morally suspect to completely benign.

 

[4-So]

Not that Wikipedia should necessarily be seen as an authority but it defines mercenary as: "A mercenary, also called a merc, soldier of fortune, or hired gun, is a private individual who joins an armed conflict for personal profit, is otherwise an outsider to the conflict, and is not a member of any other official military. Mercenaries fight for money or other forms of payment rather than for political interests."

So, basically Cloud at his introduction and for the first few hours of the game, however his motivations might shift later.

I would also point out that mercenary having a negative connotation isn't necessarily a problem. Cloud does not have to be "good" when we are introduced to him. We are given his motivations at the outset, that's enough, and he endears himself to the audience over time.

Anyway, as I said, an occasional four-letter word does not feel somehow inappropriate considering the context in which he says these things. (I'll also readily admit that I personally use profanity like a drunken sailor on shore leave, so this particular behavior was never going to seem out of place to me. I just took it in stride.)