Final Fantasy VII Rebirth

[Vaeran]

Your points are well taken, gogglebob. I'm still sort of rolling things around in my head, but I guess where Part 3 goes will determine how I ultimately feel about this.

A question I've been wondering about that I'm not sure anyone can answer:

Spoiler: Massive spoilers for the ending

What exactly happens when Cloud "saves" Aerith, but then she dies anyway? With all of Sephiroth's talk about worlds merging and splitting, my initial read was that Cloud did in fact save her, but then that reality got overwritten with a timeline where he didn't. But given the rest of the events of the ending, it seems more thematically on point that his unreliable narrator ass only ever hallucinated saving her, and was just too late to begin with.

Also, unrelated to that question, @4-So brought up an amazing point of gameplay/story integration last night: going into the Jenova Lifeclinger battle, the entire party's Limit gauges are maxed out... except for Cloud's, because in his delusion that he saved Aerith, he doesn't share their fury at her death. I think that's just genius.

 

[YangusKhan]

I haven't seen a satisfying answer to that question, Vaeran, and I don't really have one either.

 

[gogglebob]

I've got theories coming out of my theory-hole, but I do not believe there is anything definitive in the text.

Random comment that is in itself spoiler-y for this ending and OG FF7: Did Cloud "for real" fight (regular) Sephiroth at the final-end of Final Fantasy 7, or was that all in the Lifestream, like two spirits fighting separate from their physical bodies in the "real world"? Because the final fight between Sephiroth, Cloud, and Aerith in Rebirth felt a lot like that finale. That could be The-Aerith-That-Died, but manifesting as a spirit in the Lifestream as an out-of-body Cloud fights "real" Sephiroth's spirit (and not a Sephiroth-through-robes manifestation). We definitely got Other-Dimension Zack (and not just Spirit "I remember I straight up died" Zack that presumably is seen in Advent Children) fighting against Sephiroth earlier, so "this" Aerith could be the Other-Dimension Aerith that survived, and then the final scene is her attempting to "separate worlds" from Cloud.

Final Fantasy 7 is complicated when you explore its actual physics!

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Today I was finally able to bring myself to play a game other than Unicorn Overlord again, so I made it into chapter 7. Yuffie is really strong and fun to control, even more so than in Intermission.

It's wild how pretty much ALL of the characters are fun to play? Like, they all play wildly different, but all have their unique playstyles, things they're good at, unique utility, etc. That's a pretty impressive feat of game design IMO.

The original FF7 is a game where I've historically heard many people complain how materia and the lack of equipment makes all of the characters feel the same in combat. But this Remake trilogy has managed to take the wireframe of that combat system and blow it out so everyone plays incredibly different from each other.

I think the only character that isn't viscerally enjoyable to play is Barrett. But even he's fun for me to play as a palate cleanser, where you just lock on and hold square. Throw up some defensive buffs/tank skills every now and then when my brain is tired.

I really wish we could get a remake of FF8 styled like this. Just from a combat perspective, imagine whipping fools with Quistis or Rinoa having her doggo follow her around in the field at all times doing doggo things.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I really like playing Barret because he fills up his ATB gauge really fast. He makes a fantastic secondary mage/artillery who doubles as a tank. He's the guy I switch to when I need to hit an elemental weakness right now. Aerith has really high magic damage but her gauge fills a lot slower.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Barrett has great utility, and like I said I enjoy playing as the guy; I'm just saying the moment-to-moment gameplay with him revolves around holding the square button and that's kind of it. It's not like other characters where you're switching between stances constantly, or playing delicate rock-paper-scissors games with blocking/dodging, or timing counter moves, etc. Even Aerith, her gameplay revolves around playing cat-and-mouse since she'll instantly agro enemies real fast so you have to dance around the map, or make up for it with abilities that summon your teammates to tank for you.

Her ATB charge rate can be managed/nullified as well btw. You just have to use the right combo of materia/abilities, and make better use of her wards:

Arcane Ward lets her cast spells twice while only using one ATB chunk, which helps with nuking a lot.
Radiant Ward turns her into a monster who can dish damage like crazy, raising her ATB a lot faster.

Also she's a great candidate for the ATB Boost materia.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

Oh she's very effective, yes; I used Radiant Ward all the time. But she's distinct. You have to hop away from her wards a lot to avoid getting clobbered, then teleport back. Barret is the pressure mage, Aerith is the murder mage, the way I have things built. I tend to have Barret empty a clip, then use overcharge, then cast the elemental weakness spell (-ra or -ga). Tends to build stagger like whoa. Then it's Aerith with the steel chair.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Then it's Aerith with the steel chair.

 

[Peklo]

I really wish we could get a remake of FF8 styled like this. Just from a combat perspective, imagine whipping fools with Quistis or Rinoa having her doggo follow her around in the field at all times doing doggo things.

I had chronic FFVIII brain for almost all of my playthrough because yeah this game is neat and I like FFVII well enough... but there is so much FFVII in the world with more to come, so it's easy to project the immense resources poured into a project like this and wonder what it might be like if they could be applied to something that doesn't have such a cultural monopoly on its series and genre.

In particular (spoilers for the entire Queen's Blood scenario) I felt like Queen's Blood had so much FFVIII nods and dogwhistles in it. There's the basic parallel of a card game in an RPG and this series fundamentally drawing from Triple Triad as the formative example, but the narrative told through it involved a magically empowered despot possessing people from beyond time, and the specific terms "witch" and "sorceress" were both dropped at points during it. Even Vincent as the penultimate opponent from within the party's own ranks echoes Quistis's reveal as the mysterious King of the Balamb Garden CC Group. Queen's Blood is great fun and probably in pure entertainment factor eclipses Triple Triad itself, but all the deliberate-seeming allusions just made me hungry for the original reluctant card fiend to get another turn at setting up the deck.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I mean, maybe they will someday? It was pretty dang popular too, and they even used VIII's ballroom scene as a demo for PS2 live rendering as I recall. But VII is surely the one to do first.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I had chronic FFVIII brain for almost all of my playthrough because yeah this game is neat and I like FFVII well enough... but there is so much FFVII in the world with more to come, so it's easy to project the immense resources poured into a project like this and wonder what it might be like if they could be applied to something that doesn't have such a cultural monopoly on its series and genre.

In particular (spoilers for the entire Queen's Blood scenario) I felt like Queen's Blood had so much FFVIII nods and dogwhistles in it. There's the basic parallel of a card game in an RPG and this series fundamentally drawing from Triple Triad as the formative example, but the narrative told through it involved a magically empowered despot possessing people from beyond time, and the specific terms "witch" and "sorceress" were both dropped at points during it. Even Vincent as the penultimate opponent from within the party's own ranks echoes Quistis's reveal as the mysterious King of the Balamb Garden CC Group. Queen's Blood is great fun and probably in pure entertainment factor eclipses Triple Triad itself, but all the deliberate-seeming allusions just made me hungry for the original reluctant card fiend to get another turn at setting up the deck.

I'm only on Ch 10, so I haven't beaten the game yet. But ya, I've had FF8 on the brain the entire time. "Imagine how cool the Battle of the Gardens would be remade like this." And ya, Queen's Blood feels immensely like a love letter to FF8 for sure. Also, Rebirth's focus on the lore for summons, and how they enter the battlefield feels very much like something that would be at home in FF8.

I mean, maybe they will someday? It was pretty dang popular too, and they even used VIII's ballroom scene as a demo for PS2 live rendering as I recall. But VII is surely the one to do first.

FF8 sold like hotcakes, but that was mostly off of the reputation of FF7 that preceded it. Anecdotally, most of the kids on my playground were disappointed with the game because it wasn't a sequel to FF7. I still think it would make for an amazing remake though. Most of the negative discourse surrounding the game is purely from a combat mechanics perspective - where people couldn't wrap their heads around the obtuse battle mechanics, or didn't figure out how to abuse the junction system. A remake in the vein of this game could fix all those issues, and let people focus on the narrative/characters/setting which I still think is one of the best in the franchise/genre.

 

[R.R. Bigman]

Me, a Dragon Quest Fan, looking in the window at all the Final Fantasy stuff going on while my last matchstick burns out.

 

[Vaeran]

Here's a cute interview with Nobuo Uematsu, Tetsuya Nomura and Kazushige Nojima about Rebirth, along with some reminiscing about working at Square in the 90s. It's fully subtitled in English. They don't discuss any Rebirth spoilers, but out of an abundance of caution I will say there is a very brief clip shown from Chapter 14 that you may not wish to see if you haven't gotten there yet.

My favorite anecdote is when Uematsu relates that he played One-Winged Angel (in OG FF7) for everyone once it was finished, and someone (whose name he says he doesn't now recall) was like "I dunno, can't you come up with something cooler and more befitting the final boss?" And Uematsu was like

bro

trust me on this one

Check it out, maybe.

 

[Oathbreaker]

I mean, maybe they will someday? It was pretty dang popular too, and they even used VIII's ballroom scene as a demo for PS2 live rendering as I recall. But VII is surely the one to do first.

I really hope there's a remake of this quality if not scale on the table for VIII. There are so many things I love about its world that the game just drops off a sheer cliff rather than leaving on a cutting room floor because it was made in like what, ONE YEAR? I would be just as excited as I am for VII's remake stuff for the chance to see some of that get the time to shine that it deserves.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

There are so many things I love about its world that the game just drops off a sheer cliff rather than leaving on a cutting room floor because it was made in like what, ONE YEAR?

There was over two years between the release of VII and VIII. And IMO nothing in it really felt half-baked. That game is a tour de force.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I don’t know what Red XIII sounds like in English, but in Japanese

Spoiler: Spoilers for Ch 10

The reveal that he’s been code switching the entire time, and when you get to hear his real voice is pretty amazing. Like, we’d heard hints of it several times before, but getting a good listen to it finally, it’s just awesome and fits the character perfectly. It certainly helps a lot that his authentic voice is done in Japanese by Kappei Yamaguchi - who y’all probably best know as the voice of Ranma and Inuyasha. Yamaguchi is a legendary voice actor and even in his fifties is acting his heart out and totally selling the precocious teenager energy.

Love love love it so much. It’s more than I could have asked for.

 

[Peklo]

It's very well conveyed in English too and I was saddened by how prevalent the recoiling at it was, as if the social context of code-switching was entirely lost on those critical of it or that the Red they were used to was somehow robbed from them when he shifted. Even in the original game--and in English where people reportedly didn't detect this aspect of the character as much--the few things Red had going for him were his performative "I'm 15 and very introspective and serious" affectations that were dismantled upon returning to his home and Bugenhagen going "he's quiet and very deep. You thought he was an adult?"

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Biggs just called Zack a “Zack of All Trades” but just said Nandemoya lmaoooo I hate this but it’s great

 

[Oathbreaker]

Oh yep that's my bad. I was misremembering which of VIII or IX got the two full years. That wasn't to say I felt VIII was half-baked. It's a very well-cooked game. It just has by far the most details that sound like they would be plot-important in other FF titles that amount to lore easter eggs. Rather than it being undercooked, it feels like there were a lot more ingredients that they decided not to use.

 

[Solitayre]

I mean, maybe they will someday? It was pretty dang popular too, and they even used VIII's ballroom scene as a demo for PS2 live rendering as I recall. But VII is surely the one to do first.

There have been very persistent rumors of a IX Remake for several years, but I have yet to see any credible evidence.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Oh yep that's my bad. I was misremembering which of VIII or IX got the two full years.

Development of FF8 got a little over two years (not including the International Edition). Starting directly after FF7 finished and coming out at the beginning of 1999.

Development of FF9 started in 1998 and ran parallel along FF8, and was mostly done by a different team in Hawaii. (As that's where Sakaguchi was based out of making Spirits Within at the same time.) It came out in the middle of 2000. It also got at least two years, and was the beginning of Squaresoft developing multiple FFs at the same time, as FF10's development began back at JP HQ shortly after FF8 wrapped.

FF9's story definitely feels half-baked, but I would attribute that more to a conscious callback of how the stories of older FF titles used to be. Like that one stupid, evil tree in FF5 showing up out of nowhere at the end.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

Just had a moment where I was like "what would FFIX's equivalent be if they decided to do another modern-day throwback FF" and the reply echoed from within my own mind: "Stranger of Paradise"

 

[Bongo]

Wanting a hypothetical Final Fantasy 8 Remake to hew close to the Final Fantasy 7 Remake Trilogy is the 2020s version of wanting Final Fantasy 8 to hew close to Final Fantasy 7: completely understandable, and the number 1 reason for undeserved backlash when it turns out to be different instead.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Wanting a hypothetical Final Fantasy 8 Remake to hew close to the Final Fantasy 7 Remake Trilogy is...

People back in the day wanted a literal sequel to FF7 because they were babies, FF7 was their first RPG, and they didn't know how FF worked.

I don't want or need things to be exactly the same. Mix up the battle system, the story, do whatever. Point of my wishing is that I just want to experience that world again, with the level of fidelity, love, and attention to detail that FF7 is enjoying atm.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I beat Gilgamesh last night, and completed all the side quests I'm going to do. (Still salty about the sidequest that opens up at the end of Ch 12 that requires you to get high scores in the Golden Saucer minigames. That's essentially impossible for me.) So it ought to be clear sailing towards the endgame now. Hopefully I can beat the game this weekend.

Though to be honest, I'm loving the experience so much I'd be happy if it kept going. I'm in no real rush to get through the ending on account of how much fun this has been. My save file is already over 100 hrs. Most games that take this long feel like a slog to get through, but this one has been so consistently enjoyable that it hasn't really felt like that at all, and I'm thoroughly enjoying slowly and methodically scouring every square inch the world has to offer.

Also, the Odin fight nearly broke me earlier, but when I came back to it after getting to Gilgamesh Island, it was a lot easier on account of having the Reraise Materia unlocked.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Took a while, but finally finished the main scenario/beat the game last night.

I probably need to sit on the game a little more to gather my thoughts fully. But I read through and caught up with this thread through all the spoiler-posts (including gogglebob's big writeup) I stopped myself from seeing before.

I like a lot of what a lot of people are saying; it was fun to catch up and hear everyone's opinions/observations. Don't particularly agree with a lot of stuff though. The ending seemed very intentionally obtuse so that it's 1) open to interpretation, 2) open to a multilayered reading of what is going on versus any one specific plot device being the only explanation, and 3) to keep things open ended so that everyone can have surprises waiting in store for when Part 3 comes out.

I've got a lot of thoughts and ideas on what happened, but I'll probably sit and think about things for a while.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I like a lot of what a lot of people are saying; it was fun to catch up and hear everyone's opinions/observations. Don't particularly agree with a lot of stuff though. The ending seemed very intentionally obtuse so that it's 1) open to interpretation, 2) open to a multilayered reading of what is going on versus any one specific plot device being the only explanation, and 3) to keep things open ended so that everyone can have surprises waiting in store for when Part 3 comes out.

Even with all the discussion this is pretty much my takeaway. It can definitely be interpreted one way or another but there is a lot of wiggle room for things to turn out differently in some aspect or another.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Like, specifically with just what is going on with Cloud - there's enough information provided in order to frame compelling arguments for him either 1) having Genova/Sephiroth-influenced hallucinations, 2) he's so mentally messed up that he's subconsciously suppressing shit left and right, or 3) he has extra-sensory access to the Lifestream/multiverse. There's nothing said or shown explicitly that invalidates or decisively proves any one of these options, and there's a good argument to be made that he's simultaneously experiencing all three at the same time. If the ambiguity for us - as viewers with privileged information - is this nebulous, it's very obviously going to be used as a plot device to set up additional mistrust and intra-party strife/drama in the sequel, as well as to give players exciting twists/turns in a plot whose overall features are generally very well known and thus predictable.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

The main certainty, I think, is that the rest of the party is experiencing the event as it happened in FF7 originally.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

The main certainty, I think, is that the rest of the party is experiencing the event as it happened in FF7 originally.

Right. But it's anyone's guess what is going on with Cloud, and what the metaphysical ramifications for a timey-wimey, multi-dimensional plot are of that.

One little observation I don't think anyone has really commented on yet is the fact that Aerith's ultimate weapon, and final limit break is not in this game, when it should be if we're doing a 1:1 of the OG game. I might be dealing with strong amounts of copium, but I feel like that's a pretty good hint that Aerith will be returning and playable in some form/capacity in Part 3.