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A Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy: The Star Wars Thread

Isrieri

My father told me this would happen
I'm not a super star wars megafan but I'm gonna rank the one's I seen in five minutes:

1) Revenge of the Sith: I love pretty much everything about this. Even the NOOOOOOO
2) Return of the Jedi: This is such a damn good ending to Luke's story. The music and thematic elements are powerful stuff.
3) Empire Strikes Back: Music music music. Did I mention the music? I avow to you all once again the music is half the reason these films are so loved.
4) A New Hope: I kinda want to put this down lower but every time I try I keep changing my mind.
5) The Force Awakens - It and a A New Hope are roughly in even territory. The film might be a bit standard-issue but there are things to love here. Harrison Ford for one.
6) The Last Jedi - I classify this as a "great leap forward, then pratfall" case. I admire it for what it attempts to do, but for me it fails. That said, like The Force Awakens there's plenty to love here.
7) Attack of the Clones - I have mixed feelings about this because there's a really great movie that's struggling to bust from it's confines. Like Last Jedi I admire what its trying to do. I'm starting to wonder why its down here, now. I thought it was great when I was young, so its hard for me to look at it critically.
8) The Phantom Menace - I didn't like Jar Jar even as a 10 year old. The podracing was amazing and I loved the locales. Not much value in rewatches, personally.
9) Rogue One - It has good things and bad things in equal measure. This is probably the most bog-standard star wars film of the lot.
10) Solo - I was pretty bored.
 

Sarcasmorator

Same as I ever was
(He/him)
And has somehow survived a huge explosion and a fall from orbit
That doesn't even bother me. Nor the wayfinder thing; he's been there before with it, he gets there again without it, sure, fine. The frustrating part to me is not that he takes a TIE Fighter, it's that him having done so is part of JJA's pattern of disregard for established stuff. TIE/lns don't have hyperdrive, ion cannons don't make things go KA-BOOM. And there are easy alternatives. The thing only shows up in one establishing shot. Could just as easily be a shuttle, or Vader's x1, or any number of other Imperial ships that have a hyperdrive.

JJA does not care about details and it shows.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
That doesn't even bother me. Nor the wayfinder thing; he's been there before with it, he gets there again without it, sure, fine. The frustrating part to me is not that he takes a TIE Fighter, it's that him having done so is part of JJA's pattern of disregard for established stuff. TIE/lns don't have hyperdrive, ion cannons don't make things go KA-BOOM. And there are easy alternatives. The thing only shows up in one establishing shot. Could just as easily be a shuttle, or Vader's x1, or any number of other Imperial ships that have a hyperdrive.

JJA does not care about details and it shows.
He wanted a TIE next to an X- Wing in the establishing shot. That's the level of thought he put into it.
 

Sarcasmorator

Same as I ever was
(He/him)
He doesn't even fly it onscreen, he just moves away from it in the establishing shot where it shows he's on Exegol near the end

But Pepperidge Farm notices
 

Zef

Find Your Reason
(He/Him)
MAJOR
-Blatantly sidelining Rose in response to racist "fan" whinging
Worse. It was because Merry from Lord of the Rings won a soccer bet with him, and JJ put him in the movie and gave him more lines than he gave ANY other Resistance member that wasn't a main star. Hell, I'm sure he has more lines than Lando.

He also put Parkman from Heroes in it again. I was so glad when he was blown up and found it hilarious that it became Poe's breaking point.

MINOR
-Two cheap character death fakeouts. One is OK. Two is LAZY.
Two? Kylo-Ren, then Chewie, then 3P0, then Kylo-Ben, then Rey.

Final Fantasy IV is jealous.

"I'm every Jedi, it's all in me" the Force doesn't work like that
No, but shonen anime does.

That doesn't even bother me. Nor the wayfinder thing; he's been there before with it, he gets there again without it, sure, fine. The frustrating part to me is not that he takes a TIE Fighter, it's that him having done so is part of JJA's pattern of disregard for established stuff. TIE/lns don't have hyperdrive, ion cannons don't make things go KA-BOOM. And there are easy alternatives. The thing only shows up in one establishing shot. Could just as easily be a shuttle, or Vader's x1, or any number of other Imperial ships that have a hyperdrive.

JJA does not care about details and it shows.
I mean, even if you accept that the Death Star wasn't vaporized by an explosion that seemingly vaporized it, even if you accept that its remains, which were in orbit of the Endor forest moon, were propelled with enough force to break free from that orbit, even if you accept that the Endor ocean moon passed by the cloud of debris at just the right time before it dispersed across the galaxy, even if you accept that the debris survived reentry in large enough chunks to still make a recognizable silhouette, even if you accept that they splashed down just SO the dish is upright, even if you accept that the dish, which was facing towards the forest moon and would have been propelled towards the forest by the explosion, ended up on another moon, even if you accept that the Emperor's north pole tower, which is perpendicular to the equator and would've been shot off like a rocket in a trajectory perpendicular to the dish, even if you accept that the tower itself survived reentry without breaking like a toothpick, even if

You still have to deal with both the dish and the tower ending up literally next to each other.

That the throne room was at the pinnacle of a tower with a cross-shaped penthouse, with no room for a secret wayfinder vault or piles of helmets strewn about, or that there was a fully-functional TIE somewhere in the wreckage within walking distance of... wherever Kylo-Ben ended up after his chat with Dad, that's all small potatoes after the miraculous debris shot.

He doesn't even fly it onscreen, he just moves away from it in the establishing shot where it shows he's on Exegol near the end
I would love for the Lego Star Wars cartoon to give us a shot of Kylo-Ben's TIE sputtering about, making Ford Model-T noises and trailing smoke, while he tried to remember how to get from Endor to Exegol just from memory. :p
 

Sarcasmorator

Same as I ever was
(He/him)
Don't forget the bespoke knife-map that was forged AFTER the Death Star was destroyed to show the location of the spatially impossible vault!

Worse. It was because Merry from Lord of the Rings won a soccer bet with him, and JJ put him in the movie and gave him more lines than he gave ANY other Resistance member that wasn't a main star. Hell, I'm sure he has more lines than Lando.
I don't even mean sidelined at the Resistance base, where Merry was. There was no reason at all for her not to go with the group on their various adventures that both needed a seasoned mechanic. Instead Leia has her stay home to do homework. Come ON.

Two? Kylo-Ren, then Chewie, then 3P0, then Kylo-Ben, then Rey.
I only count 3P0 and Chewie as actual fakeouts. The rest were obviously not going to be real deaths.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
Don't forget the bespoke knife-map that was forged AFTER the Death Star was destroyed to show the location of the spatially impossible vault!

I only count 3P0 and Chewie as actual fakeouts. The rest were obviously not going to be real deaths.
With ancient Sith writing on it written by who, exactly? And if it's by Zombie Palpatine, who was intended to be reading it?

Nobody previously in Star Wars has ever survived a crash as bad as Kylo shrugs off in that film. The cockpit pinwheels and explodes. Mind you, that makes him the second person in RoS to impossibly survive an explosion.
 

Sarcasmorator

Same as I ever was
(He/him)
Doesn't matter how it looks, there is no way on earth Kylo Ren was going to die an hour in no matter what it looked like.

Chewie died in the old books, so I thought they might. 3P0 was, whatever. OK. R2 saved the day. Still cheap.

Anyway, sorry, I accidentally set off a "complain about TROS" chain. It's a fun enough movie, it just wasn't what I wanted and JJA makes nothing that stands up to scrutiny.
 
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Zef

Find Your Reason
(He/Him)
I absolutely and unironically love the knife map. It's just so in line with Palpy's multilayer plots! As in, he wants to kill a Senator, so he advises the Trade Feds, the Trade Feds hire Jango, Jango hires an assassin, the assassin buys a probe, the probe is filled with poison worms, the worms bite the Senator!

Then the knife: Palps wants to have a family dinner, so he creates wayfinders to Google Map people to his cube, he hides one of the wayfinders in his spare room at his old pad, he has someone make a map to his pad not by actually drawing a map, but by tracing the silhouette of debris and adding an arrow to the right place, then instead of putting that on paper he forges a knife in the shape of that silhouette and with a retractable arrow hidden in the hilt, then he writes the instructions to where to use the knife on the blade but in an ancient, forgotten language no droid can translate, then he hires a Jedi assassin (as in, an assassin who assassinates Jedi, not a Jedi that assassinates others, at least I don't think) to bring Junior home and gives him the knife to lead to the planet to lead to the beach to lead to the room to lead to the wayfinder to lead to the cube. It's utterly fantastic and something not just straight from an RPG, but out of several RPGs simultaneously! :D

But then the Jedi assassin sticks the knife into some people, potentially getting blood and gore on it that would make it unusable or at least unreadable. Dammit, Ochi, that's like Jango stepping on the poison worms!
 

Mightyblue

aggro table, shmaggro table
(He/Him/His)
It is the first time he's ever had to finish a serialized story himself instead of starting it and then handing it off to others to finish.
Sure, but he also has a fair number of film credits to his name by the time he got to TFA, and they all had the same sorts of problems present in both TFA and TROS. His toolset as a director isn't as limited as his writing abilities, but pairing the two like the studios like to do only leads to pretty, flashy, and narratively empty productions. Stuffing his productions full of mystery boxes to deflect from that doesn't help at all, and only serves to point out how utterly devoted to form over substance he is.
 

DFalcon

(he/him)
Guys, I think JJ Abrams is bad at movies
I feel this.

Thinking about TROS would probably just depress me, but one thing I think TLJ doesn't get enough credit for is salvaging the handoff from TFA. So much buildup went into the map to find Luke and it magically came together and whatever was going to happen, it was worth a minute of triumphant rotation around them - just a huge burden on the next movie to try to pay off. Chucking the lightsaber made the best of something that I remember TFA taking way too seriously.

(I haven't watched TFA since it came out, some details might have mercifully faded.)
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
I absolutely and unironically love the knife map. It's just so in line with Palpy's multilayer plots! As in, he wants to kill a Senator, so he advises the Trade Feds, the Trade Feds hire Jango, Jango hires an assassin, the assassin buys a probe, the probe is filled with poison worms, the worms bite the Senator!
I suddenly realise how odd it is for Jango to be involved in both sides of Palpatine's plot. He's working for the Separatists when it comes to killing Padme / the end of the film, but he also is the basis for the Republic clone army. Did Yoda think he was stealing it from the Separatists when he went to get them?

Attack of the Clones is definitely Palapatine's plotting at its most convoluted.

I feel this.

Thinking about TROS would probably just depress me, but one thing I think TLJ doesn't get enough credit for is salvaging the handoff from TFA. So much buildup went into the map to find Luke and it magically came together and whatever was going to happen, it was worth a minute of triumphant rotation around them - just a huge burden on the next movie to try to pay off. Chucking the lightsaber made the best of something that I remember TFA taking way too seriously.

(I haven't watched TFA since it came out, some details might have mercifully faded.)
I agree with this 100%. "Luke Skywalker has abandoned his friends to their fate and run off and hidden when he is literally the only being who could have stopped this before it got bad. PS he coyly left a map to where he went despite the fact he could have got back of his own accord and clearly doesn't want to be found. Also, it's all his fault anyway because he must have been involved with Ben turning to the Dark Side".

The much vaunted character assassination actually happened in the Force Awakens. Good luck with giving a good explanation for that while keeping Luke a hero. And the hand wavy "it's the map he used to Find Ahch-To" doesn't make a jot of sense because why wouldn't he still have it then? What they did with Luke - make him feel guilty for the multiple failings of the Jedi, worried that the presence of the Jedi creates the Dark Side users and shut him off from the Force so he genuinely didn't know what was going on - was an elegant solution to a problem that shouldn't have been dropped on someone's lap. It also managed to acknowledge and honour the Prequels at the same time while giving Luke a (misguided) nobility.

You can add "Rey's parentage is important *wink wink*" when the only people eligible that won't elicit a hearty "Who???" are Obi-wan (through some illicit liason that undermines Anakin's story), Palpy (through eeeewwwww), Leia or Luke. Whoever it was had no issue with dumping their daughter into slavery. There's implicit character assassination all over TFA because JJ doesn't care for the implications of his storytelling.
 

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
Luke didn’t leave a map. Han says that he was rumored to be looking for the first Jedi temple. They’re just looking for a map to the first Jedi temple. R2 apparently downloaded a map of the galaxy in Star Wars when he plugged into the Death Star’s main computer. He’s able to line his map up with the one BB8 got from Lor San Tekka in order to locate it.

NB: none of this is explained in the movie & it is confusing. Also, they refer to it as a map to Luke Skywalker at least once. I only know what was supposed to happen because I read it in an interview.
 

Jeanie

(Fem or Gender Neutral)
I think for me the biggest thing in the sequel trilogy that broke my disbelief was how Hyperspace travel was handled. Well, that and how Han was able to just overlook losing the Falcon for so long, but that's a whole different post.

Anyway, the OT kinda implied that Hyperspace took at least a little time to move from place to place, not instantaneous travel. This why we get a scene of Ben and Luke training with the remote droid on the way from Tatooine to Alderaan. Nope, it's poof! Here's a planet, poof! New Planet, poof! New planet and so on.

There's also the gravity well limitation, as in Hyperspace doesn't work within a planet's gravity well, which is the excuse to show us the cool shots of spaceships flying away from a planet. And this isn't even an old thing. Rebels did a episode about Interdictor Ships, which are big Star Destroyers that create a gravity well to stop ships from getting away to deal with smuggling and stuff, around that same timeframe of the movies release.

When one official show says one thing and another official source says something contradictory, it's not good for storytelling, especially when the company is trying to make a big dang deal about the quality and eliminating contradictions created by 20+ years of EU stories that are the exact same stories you are trying to resell with a different coat of paint.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
Yep. You go from "The Supremacy can track through hyperspace OMG" in the Last Jedi to "Normal TIEs can track through hyperspace" in RoS as well. Hyperspace has been completely broken in the space of four films. Rogue One has an atmospheric hyperspace jump.
 

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
TLJ had a couple of scenes that took place during hyperspace. I especially liked the shot of Leia looking out the window.
 

upupdowndown

REVOLUTION GRRR STYLE NOW
(he / him / his)
honestly RoS left me really disinterested in the f
TLJ had a couple of scenes that took place during hyperspace. I especially liked the shot of Leia looking out the window.
yeah, I didn't mind the TLJ hyperspace stuff at all. it felt like an expansion of what we already knew about hyperspace, not a contradiction.

The RoS stuff felt like a contradiction.
 

Zef

Find Your Reason
(He/Him)
Yep. You go from "The Supremacy can track through hyperspace OMG" in the Last Jedi to "Normal TIEs can track through hyperspace" in RoS as well. Hyperspace has been completely broken in the space of four films. Rogue One has an atmospheric hyperspace jump.
When Rogue One did it, it was an absolute last resort to escape the superlaser and it was a pretty big deal for all involved. Kay pointed out how dangerous it was to attempt to jump from within an atmosphere and IIRC he also pointed out he'd have to override the hyperdrive's myriad safety systems. It didn't break the notion, it just stretched it far enough to allow for a dramatic escape while still paying heed to the rules established by the narrative.

When Poe started "hyperspace skipping" with pinpoint accuracy it was merely bad. It's kind of implied that L3-37's brain the Falcon's navigational computer is just so damn good that it can calculate the jumps and drops that quickly and accurately. But when the TIEs tracked him instantaneously and jumped into/dropped out of hyperspace with even greater precision, without having Lando's ex guiding them, and didn't suffer any kind of damage from the strain, even though the Falcon was a burning wreck afterwards, that's what broke the concept just to add pointless flash. And it didn't even serve any plot point or characterization, like the R1 jump did, like the Hyperspace Bullet did, or even like Han's jump did.

(And, ironically, that's the least of my complaints about that movie. :p)
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
I really like Rogue One, but I thought out of fairness I should mention it after going after RoS for it.

I wonder what effect Covid-19 will have on the film plans? They already seemed nebulous. Is Rian Johnson going to get to do his films now?
 

ThornGhost

posts to relax/study to
(he/him)
Chewie died in the old books, so I thought they might. 3P0 was, whatever. OK. R2 saved the day. Still cheap.
Disney-era Star Wars will never kill any characters that wear a mask, full body suit, or is a puppet or CG. This is because actors age, don't resign contracts, ask for more money and/or die. Non-human characters are cheap and easy ways to create brand recognition and continuity using likenesses that Disney controls wholly apart from any actors that play them. Note the intro "face" montage to The Mandalorian: all masks, no humans.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
Here's a thought: Disney still employs Dave Filoni, the most effective steward the brand has known.
 

Sarcasmorator

Same as I ever was
(He/him)
And yet, they keep giving the movies to other people.
Disney-era Star Wars will never kill any characters that wear a mask, full body suit, or is a puppet or CG.
They killed Phasma, Kylo Ren and Snoke just in the last two numbered movies. And L3-37 in Solo.
 

Paul le Fou

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(He)
I don't have much to add except that when I saw episode 3 I had a good week of going "It worked! They did it! They finally made a good movie!" before it started to sink in that no, it didn't, no, they didn't, and no, it wasn't.

For episode 9, that didn't even last the walk home.
 

ThornGhost

posts to relax/study to
(he/him)
They killed Phasma, Kylo Ren and Snoke just in the last two numbered movies. And L3-37 in Solo.
True. I'll amend that then: recognizable hero characters. Also Kylo Ren only occasionally wore a mask, and less so as the series went on.

I doubt I could pick L3-37 out of a crowd but didn't her brain get dumped into the Falcon? You need L3-37 back, you just dump it back into a different droid.
 
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