To Infinity and Beyond: The Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Octopus Prime]

I’m convinced that Agents of SHIELD never was canon, but was just the next Multiverse over (like, Earth 617) where Coulsons survival was the divergent point, and things just gradually changed from that point on; so there’s no reason to suspect that the first season wasn’t just a “Just Off Screen” version of the movies, and everything after that got harder and harder to reconcile.

Agent Carter never had that problem, and all her contributions were secret because of the Patriarchy, so it’s still canon

 

[Adrenaline]

In my memory, when Marvel talked about the phases of the infinity saga it was always only the movies they talked about. Things are different now because the shows are being made by the same studio instead of a different one.

 

[Patrick]

Yeah, it was definitely a one-way street.

EDIT: Actually, with one exception: James D'Arcy, who played Edwin Jarvis on Agent Carter, also appeared briefly as (a version of?) the same character in Endgame.

Also, I think the SHIELD helicarrier at the end of Age of Ultron was something TV related. Or, they didn't explain it in the movie anyway.

I got caught up with She-Hulk. It's a fun show!

 

[Vaeran]

Yeah, Fury's line in Age of Ultron is something like "I got it out of mothballs with the help of some old friends" and one assumes he's referring to Maria Hill, Cameron Klein and the rest of the people you see crewing it in the movie. But in Agents of SHIELD they were like "hahahaha he means us! We're totally the old friends. What an incredible crossover, right? We'll be right back after these messages."

For a couple years there the TV series really made meals out of the movies' scraps like that. Then they kind of stopped giving a fuck. While the Sokovia Accords had a lasting effect on the series, the only mention of Civil War was someone ominously intoning "only the government can make super soldiers. Only billionaires can make iron suits..." That they didn't then turn to the camera and go "In theaters now!" showed considerable restraint.

There was a great image someone made of Coulson sitting at his desk doing paperwork, with the caption [EVENTS OF CAPTAIN AMERICA 3 OCCURRING OUTSIDE] under him, but I can't find it now. But it was basically that.

EDIT: found it lol

 

[Kazin]

Finally saw Thor: Love & Thunder. Glad I didn't bother going to the theater for it - while I enjoyed it, it was nowhere near as good as Ragnarok, even if I didn't expect it to be. Was pretty underwhelmed with the Jane Foster plotline (she gets cancer and dies after being Thor for a bit - apparently using the hammer made her cancer worse, which felt very much like a "silly regular people aren't allowed to be gods" thing, which I know is me overanalyzing the movie, but... still). Her using the hammer was cool looking, though. And I laughed every time the goats screamed and when Stormbringer got all jealous lol.

 

[Octopus Prime]

Man, I love She Hulk more and more each week.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Jane Foster lived in a world where people can travel to outer space, aliens routinely visit Earth, gods are real, nanotechnology can put a regular human on par with a demigod, where super futuristic societies like Wakanda exists, etc. She had the interpersonal connections to probably cure her cancer a thousand different ways, and yet she ignored the issue and did last-century chemo only when she was Stage 4. The hammer 'made her worse' because it helped facilitate her running away from her problems instead of confronting them - the same way she ran away from her problems with Thor instead of confronting them. I thought there was some neat thematic interplay there that is the kind of depth in writing that most Marvel movies/Disney schlock could only dream of having.

 

[Kazin]

Did I misunderstand when she discovered the cancer? I thought she didn't know about it until she'd already gotten to stage 4. Maybe I should rewatch that one scene with Kat Dennings (why was there only one scene with her? That sucked. She was in freaking Wandavision more than Thor 4).

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I should probably rewatch it too, but the two's conversation definitely struck me as something she's been dealing with for a while, and Jane's entire attitude is more like someone who is procrastinating on her homework instead of someone dealing with a life and death scenario.

I love Kat Dennings, but she doesn't really fit here in this movie at all/there's unfortunately not really a place for her. Her entire role in the first two Thor movies is that she's comic relief who has no actual expertise or relevant skills. When everything and everyone is suddenly comic relief, that makes her character even more redundant. She's also an audience-surrogate who is this grounded character who goes "woaaahhhhh!" when weird things happen, but I've always thought that perspective was never really necessary in media. (The audience will go woaaahh on their own if something is actually weird enough, they don't need to see someone going wooaaahhhh on screen to validate their feelings or to signal to them that this is indeed weird.)

 

[BEAT]

Jane Foster lived in a world where people can travel to outer space, aliens routinely visit Earth, gods are real, nanotechnology can put a regular human on par with a demigod, where super futuristic societies like Wakanda exists, etc. She had the interpersonal connections to probably cure her cancer a thousand different ways, and yet she ignored the issue and did last-century chemo only when she was Stage 4. The hammer 'made her worse' because it helped facilitate her running away from her problems instead of confronting them - the same way she ran away from her problems with Thor instead of confronting them. I thought there was some neat thematic interplay there that is the kind of depth in writing that most Marvel movies/Disney schlock could only dream of having.

I think this is a case where "We created a shared universe with tons of fantasy/scifi shit" just crashes really hard into the "we wanna tell a story about a real problem that exists in the real world."

I mean I guess we *CAN* make judgement calls on Jane for using "last century chemo" instead of pulling rank as someone who knows an avenger to get Stark Industies to put her brain into a perfect replica of her body, or calling up Wakanda (who have still only used their fabulous wealth and resources to build a single rec center in Okland) and getting them to cure her with magic lasers and shit.

But like.

Maybe we shouldn't?

 

[BEAT]

I think that's the kind of thing that honestly makes a decent argument AGAINST shared universes.

Like suddenly one writer can't do a story about a human problem with no easy solution because some other guy 3 years ago wanted tony to be able to change into his suit quicker.

 

[estragon]

I mean I guess we *CAN* make judgement calls on Jane for using "last century chemo" instead of pulling rank as someone who knows an avenger to get Stark Industies to put her brain into a perfect replica of her body, or calling up Wakanda (who have still only used their fabulous wealth and resources to build a single rec center in Okland) and getting them to cure her with magic lasers and shit.

But like.

Maybe we shouldn't?

yeah if that's what they're trying to do it's more of an indictment of superheroes than jane foster—makes you think too hard about how much all the main characters in these movies are basically evil and accidentally shifts it into Planetary/The Boys territory

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

yeah if that's what they're trying to do it's more of an indictment of superheroes than jane foster—makes you think too hard about how much all the main characters in these movies are basically evil and accidentally shifts it into Planetary/The Boys territory

The thing is, I think that's kind of the main thesis of the movie though? (And broadly, that of Phase 4 in general?) The film introduces Gorr who resents the gods as being cruel and poor stewards of their loyal subjects. Then it juxtaposes that by cutting to Thor who is just romping through the universe, leaving trails of destruction in his wake, maybe even doing more harm than good. Even his comrades in arms - who themselves are notorious for being massive blundering buffoons seem to be at wit's end with the guy. All of that is further juxtaposed by Jane. Thor is out there basically jacking off in the universe, and meanwhile the love of his life is dying and he has no idea because he's too busy doing Thor-things to notice or help.

And that's what makes the movie work so well for me. Because by the end, when we see Thor resign himself to Gorr's judgment, it's written between the lines that he's ok with it because in that moment he recognizes he's just as bad as these other gods (and by meta extension, all the old guard MCU heroes that turned a blind eye to the plight of the people) that preferred to stroke their own egos in safety rather than take risks and do hard work to help others (or even themselves) as he realizes that despite all his cosmic power, wonderful muscles, and massive self-importance, he's now essentially helpless to help the one thing that matters to him and it's largely born of his own negligence and failings.

I don't think it's an accidental shift. It's something the movie is doing very consciously. And as someone who has always looked at the MCU with that critical of an eye at its "heroes" (*cough* Tony *cough* Starlord *cough* etc) it's been great to see Phase 4 broadly touch upon, and then Thor 4 speak directly to this phenomenon. Having real discussions of moral complexity has been the thing MCU cruft has largely ignored for a decade, and I really value - if only for the sake of mixing up the stale formula - that we see some attempts to change that.

 

[Phantoon]

I watched Love and Thunder! I'm not sure what I think of it yet, I need to ruminate, but the fact I don't immediately love or hate it is a good sign that there's some depth there.

I think it's a bit much to characterise anything that happened to Jane as Thor's fault. The dude had been kind of busy with literally everyone he loved or cared about being taken from him. All of his hero stuff is bluster to hide how desperately sad and alone he is, from himself as much as others. He's avoiding feeling and opening himself up to love because it's just another potential wound to bleed from. Iron Man or Star Lord might be pricks, but Thor is not. Then there was universe ending stuff going on, it didn't leave him any time to do anything human. And what happened to Jane was in no way related to Thor anyway. She got to stage 4 because she also buried herself in her work and didn't see the danger signs - in her own way she's quite like Thor.

If anything it's more a criticism of the entire MCU; it has no time for anything outside of a universe threatening event. It misunderstands what actually carries weight - it's the little people and their fate that's important and most of the MCU can't be arsed with that at all. It's all universe collapsing crap now as the threats have to constantly get bigger. In Love and Thunder the universe is saved when two deeply broken men realise that love is more important than revenge or anything else.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I think it's a bit much to characterise anything that happened to Jane as Thor's fault.

Where did I say it was his 'fault'?

 

[Phantoon]

Thor is out there basically jacking off in the universe, and meanwhile the love of his life is dying and he has no idea because he's too busy doing Thor-things to notice or help.

I mean, I read that as being somehow Thor's fault. The film is pretty clear that the Power of Thor (TM) can't do anything about her cancer and even among us non-Gods people you care about drop out of your life. That actually makes him more relatable. And the reason they split was explicitly both of their fault.

yeah if that's what they're trying to do it's more of an indictment of superheroes than jane foster—makes you think too hard about how much all the main characters in these movies are basically evil and accidentally shifts it into Planetary/The Boys territory

This is the problem with anything like this set in the present day with such fanciful technology. There's likely no diseases that this technology couldn't cure, so the main cause of death would end up being heroes having a fight in your town. But they want to still have disease for story line purposes and it raises all kinds of unfortunate questions.

 

[Octopus Prime]

The whole Jane Has Cancer thing makes a lot more narrative sense in the comics since her turning into Thor restores her body; meaning it restored any cancer cells killed, and purged her body of any toxins, meaning it also got rid of the chemotherapy drugs. So by saving other people as Thor, she was killing herself. And it’s pointed out repeatedly that if she just *stopped* picking up the Hammer she’d be able to recover because, yes, Crazy Comic Book Science can handle this kind of thing easy.

I kept waiting for the movie to bring that up and it didn’t in any meaningful way.t

 

[jpfriction]

Man, I love She Hulk more and more each week.

Madisynn + Wongers 4 eva

 

[Johnny Unusual]

Oh, cool, they finally get Nick Fury in the spotlight.

DID YOU SEE THAT!

Spoiler: A NEW CHALLENGER!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They did it.

He's in the MCU for real now!

And even without it, I'm pretty thrilled.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I like She-Hulk.

 

[Octopus Prime]

It really might be my favourite of the MCU shows

 

[Johnny Unusual]

I'm just glad that the MCU is happy for superheroes to just happen off-screen now with no explanation. That's just the world now.

The Mr. Immortal story is fun but it's bittersweet because I feel like it interferes with my dream of a Great Lakes Avengers movie from happening.

 

[Octopus Prime]

I’ll be honest, I prefer this version of him over the comics one.

 

[Patrick]

It really might be my favourite of the MCU shows

I still think Loki & Ms. Marvel are my 2 favorites, but She Hulk still has time. It’s certainly in the running.

 

[Vaeran]

I'm looking forward to She-Hulk every week. The snappy half-hour running time helps it go down real easy, and the change in structure from your typical MCU show makes it a bit more unpredictable. (I'm usually against the argument that all MCU content is so same-y as to be basically interchangeable, but I'll admit most of these shows have a certain commonality in terms of structure and flow, and She-Hulk really bucks that trend.)

I'm a big fan of getting to take a look around the wider world of the MCU outside of superhero bases and battlefields, etc. like we get to do in the Spider-Man movies, Ms. Marvel, and so forth. I like seeing the way the general populace thinks of and reacts to the wacky paranormal shit that surrounds them, and the way society adapts to it. She-Hulk delivers on that, and has a charming and funny cast to boot. It's great stuff.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I still think Loki & Ms. Marvel are my 2 favorites, but She Hulk still has time. It’s certainly in the running.

Already surpassed both long ago imo. Loki is only really good because it is buoyed by the incredible charisma of its main leads. But its shenanigans are almost nonexistent for a show about jumping about in time with trickster gods. Ms Marvel is very good at what it is - which is a teenage hero origin story. But I'm now at the point in life where I've lived more years as an adult than all the years pre-adulthood combined, so it's not particularly relevant or engaging to me anymore. And that's fine, I'm just not its audience.

She-Hulk tho has relatable adults doing relatable adult things, so it's just naturally more engaging to me. Plus it's got the pacing of a TV show down so much better than those other two. Disney+ Event Shows tend to be structured and paced like they gave up on trying to edit down a movie to theatrical length and just pooped it out as a TV show. And it leads to something really uneven and poorly paced as something to watch one episode of a week. She-Hulk knows it's a TV show and makes that work for it. I hope the other talent making shows at Disney+ are taking notes. Real tired of three episodes being released as a premier because the hook for a show is 3 hours deep into it, and they know that if they didn't dump all 3 at once, nobody would come back to watch after just the 1st.

 

[Patrick]

Already surpassed both long ago imo. Loki is only really good because it is buoyed by the incredible charisma of its main leads. But its shenanigans are almost nonexistent for a show about jumping about in time with trickster gods. Ms Marvel is very good at what it is - which is a teenage hero origin story. But I'm now at the point in life where I've lived more years as an adult than all the years pre-adulthood combined, so it's not particularly relevant or engaging to me anymore. And that's fine, I'm just not its audience.

I felt that the later episodes with a bunch of Lokis and the finale elevated the show. Plus, Owen Wilson is just a lot of fun. Ms. Marvel offered a look into a different culture and did a wonderful job with the supporting characters & community.

But, also, I posted about which shows were my favorites. Your opinion about how good you think the shows are or how much you engage with them doesn’t have any bearing on that.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I posted about which shows were my favorites. Your opinion about how good you think the shows are or how much you engage with them doesn’t have any bearing on that.

I never said it did. We're all just giving our opinions.

 

[Patrick]

I never said it did. We're all just giving our opinions.

Then I read too much into your post. My apologies.

 

[BEAT]

I am the other hand am judging you all VERY HARSHLY for watching the Disney show that I haven't watched and don't plan on watching.

VERY HARSHLY INDEED!!!