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The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom - eponymous at last
- Thread starter Peklo
- Start date
4-So
Spicy
Finished this last night. Needs some work under the hood; game does not run well, which is to say, the inconsistent framerate was very noticeable.
The gameplay, tho? Fantastic. Might be in my top 5 Zelda titles. Charming game that I'm looking forward to revisiting, preferably on hardware that can do it justice.
The gameplay, tho? Fantastic. Might be in my top 5 Zelda titles. Charming game that I'm looking forward to revisiting, preferably on hardware that can do it justice.
I finished playing The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom tonight. I think that it is an excellent video game. I’d rank it somewhere in the upper tertile of the series, and it’s high among my favorite releases of the year. The big idea of summoning copies of objects, with few enough limitations that you often feel like you’re getting away with something, is well-realized and satisfying. The little details that go into designing a world that feels fun to explore and move around in were all brought to an uncommonly high degree of quality.
And yet, I know that it’s not the game it could be. Grezzo pushed the echo system far, even farther than I expected them to, but they didn’t push it far enough. The core design element is massive and audacious and unique, and yet it feels like they were ambitious because they needed ambition to see it done, rather than ambitious in earnest because their heart yearned to possess all of space. It’s fun and clever when it’s being consciously imitative of its predecessors, but when viewed as a whole, there is one unconsciously imitative element that is holding it back.
The Zelda series traditionally blends many mechanics: traversing obstacles with limited movement, finding hidden things in the world, amassing resources and expending them to mitigate danger, and battling enemies, all in the service of continuously recontextualizing the environment. Where they went wrong, I think, was in keeping the combat emphasis. Now, don’t get me wrong: the indirect combat system, with its various emergent techniques, totally clicked for me, and kept me entertained clear through to the extremely cool final boss battle.
But the fact that I was doing so much of it, the fact that I was learning the best way to wreck some fools as rapidly as possible, is a sign of the problem: you’re still outfighting the enemies, like Link, whereas the game was at its best when you were outsmarting them, like Zelda. The dream training sequences prove that they totally had the sauce for that kind of design.
The decision to give you extremely powerful echoes like Platboom, Flying Tile, and Water Block must inevitably erode the nuance of the traversal puzzles, and I think that tradeoff was worth it (though the Frog Ring is overpowered), but they could have kept it going longer by changing what enemies mean. Rather than combat obstacles, monsters should be traversal obstacles. Enrich the universal aggro mechanics, so that an enemy spotting you isn’t just a cue to summon your best rock, paper, or scissors to make it go away, but something that you must definitively find a way to avoid.
That’s right: my official review of The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom is that it would have been better as a stealth game.
And yet, I know that it’s not the game it could be. Grezzo pushed the echo system far, even farther than I expected them to, but they didn’t push it far enough. The core design element is massive and audacious and unique, and yet it feels like they were ambitious because they needed ambition to see it done, rather than ambitious in earnest because their heart yearned to possess all of space. It’s fun and clever when it’s being consciously imitative of its predecessors, but when viewed as a whole, there is one unconsciously imitative element that is holding it back.
The Zelda series traditionally blends many mechanics: traversing obstacles with limited movement, finding hidden things in the world, amassing resources and expending them to mitigate danger, and battling enemies, all in the service of continuously recontextualizing the environment. Where they went wrong, I think, was in keeping the combat emphasis. Now, don’t get me wrong: the indirect combat system, with its various emergent techniques, totally clicked for me, and kept me entertained clear through to the extremely cool final boss battle.
But the fact that I was doing so much of it, the fact that I was learning the best way to wreck some fools as rapidly as possible, is a sign of the problem: you’re still outfighting the enemies, like Link, whereas the game was at its best when you were outsmarting them, like Zelda. The dream training sequences prove that they totally had the sauce for that kind of design.
The decision to give you extremely powerful echoes like Platboom, Flying Tile, and Water Block must inevitably erode the nuance of the traversal puzzles, and I think that tradeoff was worth it (though the Frog Ring is overpowered), but they could have kept it going longer by changing what enemies mean. Rather than combat obstacles, monsters should be traversal obstacles. Enrich the universal aggro mechanics, so that an enemy spotting you isn’t just a cue to summon your best rock, paper, or scissors to make it go away, but something that you must definitively find a way to avoid.
That’s right: my official review of The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom is that it would have been better as a stealth game.
as a person who never learned to dodge properly, i absolutely depended on having giant ultra handed mecha, lol. i'd have gotten smoked without them. By contrast, echoes makes me wish this game had been built in the totk/botw engine because god i miss those games.
I'm still very early in, so i'm still in the getting to know you phase of the game, but combat is pretty challenging in a frustrating way, and having the sword to just clean up is pretty great.
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Except, of course, for that greatest of pastimes: the sequence break.
I got into Faron Grasslands early, and got some fun and quite difficult echoes that Tri doesn't yet have the juice for. Also amusing were the Deku Scrub NPCs greeting me before their plot line is active. "Welcome to Faron Grasslands! There's... not much going on right now. Why are you here, again?"
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
I'm done with the game. It's so, so close to a 10/10 for me, if not for one thing. It's still a 9.5/10, though, and I honestly think I liked it more than either of TotK and BotW (both fantastic as well, though). Classic Zelda will always hold appeal for me.
I honestly don't think they stuck the landing at the end - I was hoping for a large endgame dungeon that utilized teamwork with Link, but it ended up being a short showpiece dungeon with very little outside of a spot where you had to deal with Link's finicky AI to get him up to a ledge. (Note that I'd missed getting the Platboom echo... I assumed you couldn't kill them and you can.)
I honestly don't think they stuck the landing at the end - I was hoping for a large endgame dungeon that utilized teamwork with Link, but it ended up being a short showpiece dungeon with very little outside of a spot where you had to deal with Link's finicky AI to get him up to a ledge. (Note that I'd missed getting the Platboom echo... I assumed you couldn't kill them and you can.)
Finally got this and am finding it a delight. I've gotten through the desert and am now headed toward the lake.
it's scratching a lot of the same exploration and cooking itches that botw did for me, and the puzzles are really engaging and fun. there's no part of the game that i felt totally lost (thus far) though there were a few bosses i had to look at a faq for help. Just genuinely pleasant. Real bummed that they made zelda the priestess trope instead of the hero of legend, but nintendo isn't *that* progressive
OK the one thing I keep really wanting in this is a second, smaller, customizable list of favorite echoes so I don't have to hunt for one I haven't used in a while but is frequently employed for a specific kind of puzzle or obstacle.
R.R. Bigman
Coolest Guy
This is my favorite Zelda since A Link Between Worlds. I never truly mastered the combat system, yet the puzzles and an overworld dotted with a limited but almost all unique amount of things to find more than makes up for it. I was very happy to find a few optional mini-dungeons with their own boss. Has that ever happened before in Zelda games?
Went back and beat this over the past few days after having an enjoyable playthrough of Wind Waker. I liked Echoes of Wisdom a lot! The final boss gauntlet was really fun, and it made Link's abilities look useless lol (my Lizalfos Level 3 echo carried that fight, even underwater). I may go back and poke around for heart pieces or whatnot. Great game!
For me the combat system is "summon Lv. 3 Moblin, let it slash at a thing, then resummon it"
jpfriction
(He, Him)
Let me introduce you to my good friend the Lynel.
Rolled credits Friday night. An absolute fun little gem with a few foibles that I look forward to future games iterating on.
I agree that Swordfighter Form is too much of a crutch, though the difficulty of refilling the meter early on gave me enough Must Save It For Later anxiety that I nearly always saved it for bosses (and especially annoying enemies like tektites). I was, however, perplexed at so much of the late-game
The thing I really kept forgetting to use was Bind, though. I found it very finicky after having so much control with Ultrahand.
The final boss
Overall, I understand why the game didn't want to stray too far from the Link formula, but I hope this gives them the courage to make another title with Zelda as the hero with more confidence in her abilities.
BONUS NONSENSE: Really hard to place this one on the Zelda Timeline(TM). It is obviously a love-fest for LttP and is the easiest fit on Downfall, but
? My headcanon might end up with this "Hyrule" itself being an alternate dimension like the Dark World or Lorule.
I agree that Swordfighter Form is too much of a crutch, though the difficulty of refilling the meter early on gave me enough Must Save It For Later anxiety that I nearly always saved it for bosses (and especially annoying enemies like tektites). I was, however, perplexed at so much of the late-game
collecting involving might crystals and Swordfighter power-ups only for the game to take them from you in the final dungeon.
The thing I really kept forgetting to use was Bind, though. I found it very finicky after having so much control with Ultrahand.
The final boss
made me LOL when it dropped the smokescreen and revealed its googly eyed face. I didn't realize until later that it's supposed to be a huge evil version of whatever Tri is. Honestly wasn't impressed at the villain being all Return To The Nothingness like a FF boss, but it was a fun swerve that Ganon was a decoy.
Overall, I understand why the game didn't want to stray too far from the Link formula, but I hope this gives them the courage to make another title with Zelda as the hero with more confidence in her abilities.
BONUS NONSENSE: Really hard to place this one on the Zelda Timeline(TM). It is obviously a love-fest for LttP and is the easiest fit on Downfall, but
apparently rifts have been appearing in this Hyrule all throughout history? And the Triforce is called a different name
Becksworth
Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
Finally beat this. It's... alright I guess. My main complaint is it's trying to be a middle ground between traditional Zelda and Tears of Kingdom, but masters neither. Using echos to do everything slows things down a little, but it's also nowhere near as wildly versatile as ultra hand was, and the multiple solutions design feels combined with generous healing options made it really easy overall.
At the very least, this is far and away the best Zelda game with Zelda as the protagonist.
At the very least, this is far and away the best Zelda game with Zelda as the protagonist.
Nintendo actually placed this in the timeline and it's currently set between Triforce Heroes (so, also after Link Between Worlds) and the original LOZ.
I just saw that too. It's as good a fit as any, I guess, even though there's some weird details that don't gel. It would have been great if
the "pRiMe EnErGy" had stayed split into three though, that could've explained why they are separate in Zelda 1.
Zelda has one adventure, and the entire kingdom falls apart!