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The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom - eponymous at last
- Thread starter Peklo
- Start date
All monarchies suck. Still waiting for the day when a Zelda decides to delegate to/empower a parlement.
I'm having fun enough with it that I'm spacing out playing it, rather than blow through it in a couple of sittings like I often do with new games I'm really enjoying.
Someone on a stream I watch mentioned it reminds them of Pokemon in some ways - and I hadn't thought of it until they said it, but yeah, kinda. Every time I see a new enemy, I make a beeline to it and kill it in any way possible to "catch" the new echo. Then it's fun to play around with it, see its strengths and weaknesses. I want to "catch em all," and those sidequests where it's like "show me X echo" reinforce that.
It also feels like a classic 2D Zelda game, which we haven't gotten in a decade, so its scratching a lot of particular itches I've needed scratching for a while. I really like this game, y'all!
Someone on a stream I watch mentioned it reminds them of Pokemon in some ways - and I hadn't thought of it until they said it, but yeah, kinda. Every time I see a new enemy, I make a beeline to it and kill it in any way possible to "catch" the new echo. Then it's fun to play around with it, see its strengths and weaknesses. I want to "catch em all," and those sidequests where it's like "show me X echo" reinforce that.
It also feels like a classic 2D Zelda game, which we haven't gotten in a decade, so its scratching a lot of particular itches I've needed scratching for a while. I really like this game, y'all!
I know Pokémon is the more immediate comparison point because of associative proximity and all, but for me (because of my own familiarity and biases, of course) I've thought of this game's combat encounters as verging on Aria of Sorrow territory in the versatility of the toolkit in play, and the excitement of finding opportunities to expand it--but even more tactically engaging because of the Echoes becoming your fundamentals of the moment instead of supporting them, and how the enemy design often involves specific weaknesses, immunities and other properties to guide those choices, which of course affects both parties. Those aspects, together with proactively utilizing Bind to manipulate spacing--whether on your own buddies or the enemy--make this game's take on combat by far the most interesting the series has ever been, which I don't think is heavy competition since it's not usually a focus... but it's a defining aspect in here that pleasantly stakes a claim on a playfeel identity that you can't find in any prior game.
SO ABOUT AN HOUR IN
UNFORUNATELY I'M HAVING... EXACTLY THE PROBLEM I THOUGHT I'D HAVE. THE ECHOS DO NOT FEEL GOOD TO ME. IN COMBAT OR IN DROPPING STUFF ON THE GROUND.
I'M PRETTY SURE THAT THIS WILL CHANGE SOON BUT HAVING ONLY ONE BUTTON AT THE START OF THE GAME IS JUST ANNOYING, AS IS SCROLLING THOUGH THE LIST TO FIND THE THING YOU WANT EVERY FEW SECONDS. ALSO WHY ARE ENEMIES IN THE SAME SCROLLING LIST AS BOOKCASES? WOULDN'T IT HAVE MADE MORE SENSE TO HAVE A "GUYS WHAT FIGHT" LIST AND A "GUYS YOU STAND ON LIST?"
THE GAME LOOKS VERY NICE BUT I DON'T LIKE THE BLUR EFFECT ON THE EDGES OF THE SCREEN. I KNOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO FEEL NATURAL BUT I JUST FIND IT DISTRACTING.
IT'S KIND OF COOL THAT LINK AND ZELDA HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHO EACHOTHER ARE IN THIS STORY. THAT'S A NICE TWIST.
WILL CONTINUE TO PLAY AND HOPEFULLY EITHER THE MECHANICS OF SPAWNING STUFF WILL CLICK FOR ME, OR I'LL GET AN ITEM THAT LETS ME USE THE 2 UNUSED BUTTONS. GUESS WE'LL SEE.
UNFORUNATELY I'M HAVING... EXACTLY THE PROBLEM I THOUGHT I'D HAVE. THE ECHOS DO NOT FEEL GOOD TO ME. IN COMBAT OR IN DROPPING STUFF ON THE GROUND.
I'M PRETTY SURE THAT THIS WILL CHANGE SOON BUT HAVING ONLY ONE BUTTON AT THE START OF THE GAME IS JUST ANNOYING, AS IS SCROLLING THOUGH THE LIST TO FIND THE THING YOU WANT EVERY FEW SECONDS. ALSO WHY ARE ENEMIES IN THE SAME SCROLLING LIST AS BOOKCASES? WOULDN'T IT HAVE MADE MORE SENSE TO HAVE A "GUYS WHAT FIGHT" LIST AND A "GUYS YOU STAND ON LIST?"
THE GAME LOOKS VERY NICE BUT I DON'T LIKE THE BLUR EFFECT ON THE EDGES OF THE SCREEN. I KNOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO FEEL NATURAL BUT I JUST FIND IT DISTRACTING.
IT'S KIND OF COOL THAT LINK AND ZELDA HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHO EACHOTHER ARE IN THIS STORY. THAT'S A NICE TWIST.
WILL CONTINUE TO PLAY AND HOPEFULLY EITHER THE MECHANICS OF SPAWNING STUFF WILL CLICK FOR ME, OR I'LL GET AN ITEM THAT LETS ME USE THE 2 UNUSED BUTTONS. GUESS WE'LL SEE.
There are utility monsters (not in the ethical philosophy sense, but little guys that are useless in most fights) and combat objects. I feel like the tactics can grow more proactive and efficient as you understand how to combine them in devious ways, but early on, when you have few triangles and a shallow bench, you may prefer to lean harder on that sword mode button.
If you mean the very beginning, before getting the Bind button, you're still in the tutorial, so you gotta eat your vegetables.
If you mean the very beginning, before getting the Bind button, you're still in the tutorial, so you gotta eat your vegetables.
Yeah, Aria of Sorrow makes much more sense as a point of comparison. I had been watching a Pokemon stream and have played a lot of Pokemon lately so that's why that made sense to me haha
RE: sorting echoes - while holding the right button on the dpad to pick an echo, you can press Y to change categories of echo as well, to last used, most used, most recently obtained, cost, and type. Overall the system isn't perfect, but frankly it is no more clunky than going into the stupid weapons menu every three seconds when your weapon breaks in BotW.
RE: sorting echoes - while holding the right button on the dpad to pick an echo, you can press Y to change categories of echo as well, to last used, most used, most recently obtained, cost, and type. Overall the system isn't perfect, but frankly it is no more clunky than going into the stupid weapons menu every three seconds when your weapon breaks in BotW.
A bad first impression is still a bad first impression.
More than that even the utility echos feel... Just really fuckin awkward. Bedstack is op of course but swapping between beds and boxes to maximize your shit is annoying.
I really really wish I had a second echo button so I could fuck around with placing things without opening the menu every few seconds.
Ludendorkk
(he/him)
Honestly bedstacking has rarely been as useful as people as people were theorizing, its more awkward that it looks. Trampolines have been my go-to movement verb.
And combat does get better the bigger your toolkit gets: you get your frontline attackers, your airborne attackers, utility players, elemental damage, etc. Getting the Club Boarblin was a big step up because of how all-purpose aggressive they are. Also remembering you can use Sword Form is a trick, lol.
Really enjoying this one, love the artstyle and the fresh approach
And combat does get better the bigger your toolkit gets: you get your frontline attackers, your airborne attackers, utility players, elemental damage, etc. Getting the Club Boarblin was a big step up because of how all-purpose aggressive they are. Also remembering you can use Sword Form is a trick, lol.
Really enjoying this one, love the artstyle and the fresh approach
4-So
Spicy
A minor gripe but the game definitely needs a favorites menu for echoes and/or the ability to "turn off" echoes in the book so they don't appear at all in your list.
It's been a phenomenal game so far save for the unlocked framerate being visibly distracting, especially in certain parts of the overworld.
It's been a phenomenal game so far save for the unlocked framerate being visibly distracting, especially in certain parts of the overworld.
Finished this with full completion. Overall very good, but I want to talk about some criticisms in detail in context of the game in its entirety, so that'll be just below.
Those are the gripes. Very glad about the rest of it, and probably the most the series has interested me in over a decade.
More than anything, I think Swordfighter mode could and should've been cut entirely. It's a needless distraction and dilution of the ostensible highlight of the game, a Zelda-starring yarn with her own distinct ability set; having a tacked-on Link transformation to lean on shifts the entire game away from her in both mechanics and narrative framing. There is its obvious immediacy and power in just having a sword button, which ends up casting anything Zelda can do even at the peak of her respective powers as inferior to what Link can at a base level. It flattens boss design especially, where almost every single one operates on an exposed weak point basis, and in those windows of opportunity Swordfighter transformation and just hacking away is always the most efficient, optimal answer. It looms over the entire game in this way, where all the tricky combat encounters that might occur can always be solved by spending just a little bit of meter and doing away with them in the customary Link fashion, if opted for. I resented the mechanic so I rarely did so, but always knew it was there, reminding me of Link's existence. And that's really the especially stinging part of the transaction, where it's not even a case of Zelda having access to a sword, bow and bombs as more traditional, immediate options: it's that she has to literally become Link to even be able to make use of them, how just existing as "Link" is treated as a world-busting super mode, and how the entire game is spent on powering up his tools, returning them to him, and then marveling at the way he disposes of enemies largely much more impactfully than the player as Zelda can in the final co-op segment. It's "Zelda's story" in which the game is constantly asking "where's Link" and insisting through semiotics in iconography and mechanical texture on his presence even when he's supposed to be largely absent, and by the end of it ending up feeling like Zelda's a supporting cast member in her own narrative.
The dungeon design is very conflicting. On a room-by-room basis, there's a lot of fun to be had in the individual layouts, but as dungeon-spanning floorplans and the play structure they create, they are simplistic bores. Nearly every one consists of pure forward momentum with very little or none at all in the way of backtracking or navigating space in an exploratory fashion--it's probably impossible to get lost in any one of them. The few dungeons that have multiple entrances--Gerudo, Faron region--have some pretense of more involved, mazelike design, but it's never something that holds or defines the way one charts these interiors. I can only conjecture that managing all the permutations in which Echoes can interact with the environment and puzzles reduced the time and attention able to be dedicated to dungeon design that could have pursued multi-tiered, room-spanning interactions... or perhaps that's just not to this team's taste and interest, who knows. Whatever the cause, the end result is strikingly uninteresting.
The framerate issues are truly intrusive in ways that I'm often not that sensitive to. It's a game that targets 60fps but practically almost never maintains it, erratically seesawing between it and 30fps as any performance drop at all results in the game halving its framerate. For a game that involves a giant map through which freeform movement is the order of the day, the fluctuations are ever-present and significantly colour the visual presentation of the game as an inconsistent illustrator.
The dungeon design is very conflicting. On a room-by-room basis, there's a lot of fun to be had in the individual layouts, but as dungeon-spanning floorplans and the play structure they create, they are simplistic bores. Nearly every one consists of pure forward momentum with very little or none at all in the way of backtracking or navigating space in an exploratory fashion--it's probably impossible to get lost in any one of them. The few dungeons that have multiple entrances--Gerudo, Faron region--have some pretense of more involved, mazelike design, but it's never something that holds or defines the way one charts these interiors. I can only conjecture that managing all the permutations in which Echoes can interact with the environment and puzzles reduced the time and attention able to be dedicated to dungeon design that could have pursued multi-tiered, room-spanning interactions... or perhaps that's just not to this team's taste and interest, who knows. Whatever the cause, the end result is strikingly uninteresting.
The framerate issues are truly intrusive in ways that I'm often not that sensitive to. It's a game that targets 60fps but practically almost never maintains it, erratically seesawing between it and 30fps as any performance drop at all results in the game halving its framerate. For a game that involves a giant map through which freeform movement is the order of the day, the fluctuations are ever-present and significantly colour the visual presentation of the game as an inconsistent illustrator.
Those are the gripes. Very glad about the rest of it, and probably the most the series has interested me in over a decade.
I haven't finished the game yet - as always, I remain addicted to catching shiny Pokemon and played nothing but Heart Gold yesterday - but I agree with your first main point 100%. I'm always disappointed in myself when I drop into Swordfighter mode, it feels like a cheat. And yeah, I'm supposed to be friggin Zelda, I've been Link in like two dozen games before, dangit. I was glad to see Zelda get her normal costume and not have to hide under Link's discarded shroud, though, several dungeons in. I ditched that thing as soon as her regular outfit became available. Also I wish Zelda would have gotten some dialogue, since she's gotten so much in other games. I'm not sure why she had to become a silent protagonist all of a sudden. I guess it's to make her more Link-like, which just reinforces your point.
I haven't finished the game yet, though I suspect I'm going to largely agree with your second major point as well by the end. Though unless something changes before the endgame, the framerate has not bothered me at all. I'm apparently always in the minority on that point, though.
I haven't finished the game yet, though I suspect I'm going to largely agree with your second major point as well by the end. Though unless something changes before the endgame, the framerate has not bothered me at all. I'm apparently always in the minority on that point, though.
It's really just the inconsistency of the framerate that's irksome. I've played atrociously running Switch games like Pokémon Scarlet/Violet and Shin Megami Tensei V and such, consistently engage with 3D games from PS1 era and the like, but in those instances the games would always run "badly"... you can adjust to anything, but it's harder to acclimatize when every moment of a game is a diceroll in display fluidity.
Oh right, as a side note, I played this on Hero Mode. The beginning can be a bit harrowing, I suppose, but eventually I plain forgot I was playing in a purpoted challenge mode. Fairies, smoothies, and beds make health restoration really trivial so not having passive heart drops and increased damage taken didn't really affect much in the end.
Oh right, as a side note, I played this on Hero Mode. The beginning can be a bit harrowing, I suppose, but eventually I plain forgot I was playing in a purpoted challenge mode. Fairies, smoothies, and beds make health restoration really trivial so not having passive heart drops and increased damage taken didn't really affect much in the end.
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I find myself wondering, for how long was this a Link game instead of a Zelda game.
And as a corollary, is there a version of Tears of the Kingdom where instead of Link getting a magic hand, Zelda got a magic hand?
Oh look, and I found this after remembering that I could do a google on it:
Trust them or don't:
And as a corollary, is there a version of Tears of the Kingdom where instead of Link getting a magic hand, Zelda got a magic hand?
Oh look, and I found this after remembering that I could do a google on it:
Loading…
www.thegamer.com
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Recall, this game started out as Zelda Maker, before the decision to pivot.
That's from this four-part developer interview. Coming up with a gameplay concept first and deciding on the main character after developing the prototype a bit further is very consistent with Nintendo's M.O.
Ludendorkk
(he/him)
Really enjoying the dungeons in this one, especially like the ones like Gerudo Sanctum or Faron Temple that have outdoor sections
For when you have to kill fast and bullets too slow, knowing what echoes are aggressive is important. For example, you might be out of energy.
Early on, wolfos is great against moblins, club boarblins come out swinging, and no aquatic enemy can withstand the... forgot the name... shark. Later on, venture into Eternal Forest and grab a Sword Moblin lv 3, or deploy automatons, both of which have very high attack power.
Early on, wolfos is great against moblins, club boarblins come out swinging, and no aquatic enemy can withstand the... forgot the name... shark. Later on, venture into Eternal Forest and grab a Sword Moblin lv 3, or deploy automatons, both of which have very high attack power.
There's almost never a reason to just wait for summoned Echoes to go about their routine, unless that's how you prefer it. They attack immediately upon creation if targeting an enemy; you can repeat this to launch attacks at a very rapid pace. If you'd rather help them along, Bind is your friend, whether in grabbing hold of your buddies and increasing their range and spacing options, or locking down enemies to bring them to stronger, less mobile Echoes for a beating. There's a lot you can do to dictate the rhythm and nature of encounters.
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
I was very skeptical about this one going in - I honestly didn't want another TotK/BotW in 2D - but this looks like it has taken the right elements so far and combined it with the dungeon design I've always loved. There's room for this to displace Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown as my favorite release this year, but I'm pretty sure I've got a ways to go.
