The Human Adventure Continues: Talking About Star Trek

[Sprite]

(one of those being nuTrek - I need to give DISCO another chance. I'm sure I'll like it more, now that it isn't carrying the burden of saving Trek from going to sleep again for two decades).

What's weird is it feels like Star Trek lies dormant for decades but if you count the movies it never goes away for more than a few years. I think the longest gap is between The Animated Series and The Motion Picture, five years. I fully expect NuTrek to burn out in the next few years but they'll probably just need to let the field lie fallow for a while before spinning back up.

And yeah, DISCO benefits greatly from the explosion of new shows taking the pressure off of it.

 

[Johnny Unusual]

What's weird is it feels like Star Trek lies dormant for decades but if you count the movies it never goes away for more than a few years. I think the longest gap is between The Animated Series and The Motion Picture, five years. I fully expect NuTrek to burn out in the next few years but they'll probably just need to let the field lie fallow for a while before spinning back up.

I think the dormancy is more about cultural cache. Not a comment on the actual quality of either series but I feel like things were winding down in the late Voyager and Enterprise eras after a three long-running series in one decade and they weren't really series talked about as much (to me, anyway). The new Trek movie was a definite hit but it is primarily a TV franchise. The fact that there are... what, FIVE concurrent Trek series currently kind of puts it at its most flourishing to date.

 

[Lakupo]

Long Live Emperor Georgiou! Section 31 movie starring Michelle Yeoh is a go!

Considering how much Michelle Yeoh's star has risen in the public eye, a series seemed like a less likely prospect, so I'm okay with getting a movie.

Disco S3 spoiler: Also, who knows what era she'll be dropped off in? Original Disco/Strange New Worlds era? Picard era? Something else? (although SNW era would probably be best for her molecular stability)

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

The S31 movie is just Everything Everywhere All At Once pt 2 where Georgiou is tumbling through the Star Trek timeline trying to get back to the 23rd Century

 

[Lakupo]

"Georgiou, didn't they report that you died? Twice?"

"I got better."

 

[Kirin]

Awesome. I have to admit that while I love Yeoh/Georgiou to bits, I was always a little leery of the idea of an entire series focused on Section 31. One big flashy movie, though? Absolutely, bring it on. Also as Lakupo mentioned, seems way more realistic to actually happen with Yeoh's presumably substantial work slate.

 

[Sprite]

I just hope it doesn’t go the “Section 31 is good, actually”route, given how heinous they’ve been. Best case scenario is it ends up showing that most of Section 31’s time is spent trying to stop Section 31.

 

[Sprite]

Like have Georgiou discover a distant station where Section 31 is developing a weapon of mass destruction but the bureaucracy involved in shutting the project down has been going on for years so she just hacks the Federation’s Defense Department to wipe all the data and then sets the bomb off to dispose of the evidence.

 

[chud_666]

Ash Tyler: still around? Memory holed?

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I just hope it doesn’t go the “Section 31 is good, actually”route, given how heinous they’ve been.

In nuTrek, what we've seen of Section 31 so far is:

In Season 1 of Discovery - Section 31 enabled and overlooked a mirror universe infiltrator who absconded with their war-winning super-science tech and almost lost the Klingon War as a result.

In Season 2 of Discovery - Section 31 nearly wiped out all advanced life in the galaxy by making an unprincipled, amoral super computer.

In Picard Season 3 - Section 31 got all of Starfleet assimilated because they like to keep a cache of insane superweapons at a facility with inadequate defenses that villains can just go shopping at willy nilly. And that's before you realize that a big chunk of the theme of PIC S3 is about dealing with the fallout from Section 31's actions during DS9 which came back to bite the UFP the same way the US's CIA ops in the 20th Century came back to bite America in the ass in the 21st Century.

I too don't want the Star Trek Deep State to be held up as "good, actually" but so far they've demonstrably not done that and have at best, portrayed S31 as dangerously and criminally inept and always demonstrated that more ethical methods are usually the solution to problems, not the S31 way. I'm cautious but cautiously optimistic that the writers will know how to thread the needle because they have done so, so far.

 

[Büge]

Star Trek Deep State Nine

heh

 

[Aleryn]

I'd like to see Section 31 acting competently in that movie.

 

[gogglebob]

It varies between continuities, but a lot of DC Comics dimensions include an "Earth-3" where all the Justice League characters are bad guys, and all of our known villains are the "real" super heroes. In these Earth-3 dimensions, the Evil Justice League is in charge, and the undefeated kings and queens of the world. While "our" good Justice League and their evil doppelgangers inevitably clash, the situation is usually left with the bad guys still in charge of Earth-3. I believe it was one of Grant Morrison's stories that posited that Earth-3 was "based" on evil always winning, so no matter what our good guys did, evil would always come out on top on that specific Earth.

I choose to believe that Section 31 in Star Trek is basically trapped in the same cycle. Star Trek takes place in a universe too based on good for an unscrupulous group of ne'er-do-wells to truly succeed, so they come off as incompetent losers more often than not. They literally cannot get a clean win thanks to the laws of their universe. It is remarkable that they accomplish as much as they do.

 

[FelixSH]

When I first watched DS9, I really enjoyed the idea of Section 31. But the second time, I think two or three years ago, my mind changed completely. It just feels so very anti-trek, to have these people, doing those dirty jobs. I know, it's silly, but the Federation shouldn't NEED anyone doing dirty jobs. It should be past stuff like that.

So, yeah, let them fail at every thing they try, if they have to appear. Better yet, retire them. But I'll take what I can get.

 

[Daikaiju]

I choose to believe that Section 31 in Star Trek is basically trapped in the same cycle. Star Trek takes place in a universe too based on good for an unscrupulous group of ne'er-do-wells to truly succeed, so they come off as incompetent losers more often than not. They literally cannot get a clean win thanks to the laws of their universe. It is remarkable that they accomplish as much as they do.

Maybe Section 31 exists to corral these people into one group. Folk like that get in each other's way, which is probably the point.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

DS9 and ENT both posit that S31 is like this vestigial holdover from when before the UFP was the UFP, and when humankind's worst instincts still had sway. And I think at the heart of things, that's why it was made as a concept and why it continues to have appeal to writers who keep coming back to it. The Star Trek universe is not supposed to be some kind of world where things are innately more good like in the DC Universe. It was originally conceived as our future, staring us. And for as much as the characters in Star Trek like to talk about how humanity has 'evolved' - that is always said implicitly in a metaphorical, spiritual sense of 'evolution' versus anything literal. 300 years is not long enough for the human race to actually undergo meaningful biological evolution, especially in a utopian society freed from all natural selective pressures. So even if we managed to - as a society - root out and temper our worst aspects, we are still human beings prone to our primal instincts. As Kirk said, "We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands." And Section 31 is emblematic of the general writing ethos of DS9 that looked a bit more cynically at the Star Trek setting and wanted to explore what happens to this 'evolved' humanity if you put the clamps on it. Do we revert to our base instincts as human beans? And continue those savage years?

I don't mind S31 as an idea, as long as it's done well. Just like Picard's whole monologue in "Drumhead" - the price we must continually pay for our way of life is vigilance. And if you don't continually pay that, then you leave the door open for fascism to creep in. When S31 is used in such a way, it's fine. Good, even. And particularly pertinent to the issues of today. Compromising our morals for the illusion of safety is a spiritual death, and often leads to physical death in the end. And our society in general needs those reminders, because apparently as a society and species, we can decide it's perfectly reasonable to throw away our umbrella just because we aren't getting wet anymore, despite the torrential downpour happing just beyond the umbrella's edge.

The worry is that the fans, and even the writers, will indulge in the old Gundam-meme of "cool robot" with Section 31, obfuscating or missing the point when playing with cool action-spy toys. Which is a legitimate concern, but not a novel or new one. That's honestly been a moral conundrum that has surrounded Star Trek from the very beginning, IMO. You could draw an MS paint comic of a crudely drawn USS Enterprise shooting a volley of phasers that fly over someone's head saying "capitalism/nationalism is evil" and the eager bug-eye'd fan going "cool space military" and it would be pretty appropriate.

 

[Sprite]

When I first watched DS9, I really enjoyed the idea of Section 31. But the second time, I think two or three years ago, my mind changed completely. It just feels so very anti-trek, to have these people, doing those dirty jobs. I know, it's silly, but the Federation shouldn't NEED anyone doing dirty jobs. It should be past stuff like that.

So, yeah, let them fail at every thing they try, if they have to appear. Better yet, retire them. But I'll take what I can get.

S31 is very anti-Roddenberry Trek, for sure, but we got two shows and six movies of that Trek, and they were great, but once he was gone it was time to problematize things. In many ways Star Trek is the story of a benevolent empire peacefully colonizing the stars, and if you follow that track too far you run the risk of falling into American Exceptionalism and Manifest Destiny. It’s good to show how the Federation’s ideals can be twisted, so long as in the end humanity finds a way forward and rights things again. And even at its darkest and cruelest the Federation is a better place to live than pretty much any sci for universe.

 

[FelixSH]

S31 is very anti-Roddenberry Trek, for sure, but we got two shows and six movies of that Trek, and they were great, but once he was gone it was time to problematize things.

I'm coming back to this again and again. Not just since you wrote this, but since the start of Picard. I see your point, but I still can't bring myself to agree here.

Star Trek, to me, is essentially the story of a Utopia. A place where we made it, were we got over our bullshit, our stupid differnces, and can do actual work, for the betterment of everyone (which is probably they same for most people here, I assume, at least in some capacity). And I'm wondering what this effectively means.

Years ago, I thought that humans, in general, are just better, but this is obviously not true. From TOS on, we have people who are not from an utopian ideal, but are flawed and problematic. Maybe even moreso in TNG, with people who don't get how witchhunts are a bad idea. Fair enough.

But what does that mean then? My conclusion was, that it meant a structure, a society, that can help people get over this garbage. A society, that catches psychological illnesses and helps the people deal with it. Which is structurally strong enough to withstand horrible people. Like, if Picard hadn't been the captain in The Drumhead, other people would have stepped in. Or a part of the Federation, something like Section 31, just not disgusting, would step in and make sure that things don't get out of hand. That the structure of the Federation itself would be strong enough to withstand this stuff. That would catch people, before they fall far enough that they have to drown in alcoholism, at least on Earth. That makes sure that an infiltration simply doesn't work anymore.

If the world of Trek, the era of Picard at least, doesn't offer that, what does it offer? I can't help but land on infinite energy. That getting free of our need and fight for ressources is the only thing that makes it into a Utopia. And as soon as we lose this, we go back to being cavemen. Which I find a very depressing thought. Sort of, like when you start with a Utopia, but slowly pull away the curtain, to reveal the terrible things behind it.

If it really just comes down to a handful people being good and decent, like the multiple captains of our shows, the ideals, in the end, don't mean much. Without a structure, institutions that support and defend these ideals, they don't mean much. It can easily break apart.

I guess the answer is, that it is simply more complicated. That I want to have this strong utopia, where we made it, and it's structure is so strong that it can withstand, even without people fighting for it, at least some bashing. At least for some time. And that we just changed the degree of our enlightenement.

I don't think a utopia in fiction can withstand a closer look. If nothing else, than simply because you won't get an interesting story out of it. But I miss the utopian ideals of early Trek. And I'm so tired of our constant cynisism. I feel like, we see the shit that happens around us, in this time, and extrapolate from there, assuming that it will always be bad, and we are just a step away from destruction. That we will never have more than a thin facade. And just act like it is silly, to even assume that we could really, actually make it. To get behind our garbage. That we make actual, real progress with our social problems, that isn't just based on not having enough material stuff for everyone.

We can't even pretend, that we might make it, someday. We assume, as a society, that everything is close to collapse, all the time. And think it is naive, to say otherwise, even in a far future setting. A utopia always has to have its darker sides, showing that, actually no, we will never get over it. We just act like it.

I think that's problematic, not just for Trek, but as a thing that encompasses all of society. We need optimism. We need to think that it is at least possible to do it, to get over it. I honestly think that, if we can't even pretend that this might be possible, we won't. I thought for years, that we need new utopic visions, ideals that we can strive for, that simply doesn't have this dark undercurrent, and I still think so. Something that gives us hope. That was always Trek for me. But it's hard to have it stay in this position, if it's only possible through the people who clean up the stuff that others simply don't want to see. Or that you can still fall, with no one to catch you, drowning in alcoholism, because even this utopia isn't strong enough to help you with your problems.

I know, there are signs of this from at least TNG on. The episode, where Picard meets his brother, shows this clearly. But having an actual part of the Federation be there to do the dirty work, have it encoded in the very fabric of this show instead of implied, doesn't sit right with me.

Anyway, I could go on, but I feel like I'm already starting to repeat myself, so I'll stop now.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Trek for me. But it's hard to have it stay in this position, if it's only possible through the people who clean up the stuff that others simply don't want to see. Or that you can still fall, with no one to catch you, drowning in alcoholism, because even this utopia isn't strong enough to help you with your problems.

I know, there are signs of this from at least TNG on. The episode, where Picard meets his brother, shows this clearly. But having an actual part of the Federation be there to do the dirty work, have it encoded in the very fabric of this show instead of implied, doesn't sit right with me.

If I'm reading you correctly, your read on the situation is that the existence of Section 31 in Star Trek implies that Federation society is not inherently strong enough to last and that it needs this covert shadow group to do the dirty work nobody else wants to do. But the reality is that every time we have seen Section 31 in the franchise, they've gone and made things worse, rather than fix things. Even if they solve something in the short term, their methods create long lasting issues that eventually come back to bite the Federation in the rear end. We literally haven't seen a single time on camera where Section 31 did something with a even a net-positive outcome. They don't actually exist to protect utopia, they exist as a tumor that only cares about perpetuating itself at the expense of the whole.

Also, the existence of people who still abuse substances or have untreated mental health issues also does not inherently imply that the society isn't strong enough to help them. In a just, fair, and liberal society, you can't just force people with problems to undergo treatment against their will. They have to be willing to accept help. The autonomy of the individual is sacrosanct. Forced intervention should only happen once a person becomes harmful to those around them, violating the autonomy of others. Anything else would be totalitarian in nature and very anti-Star Trek.

 

[FelixSH]

If I'm reading you correctly, your read on the situation is that the existence of Section 31 in Star Trek implies that Federation society is not inherently strong enough to last and that it needs this covert shadow group to do the dirty work nobody else wants to do. But the reality is that every time we have seen Section 31 in the franchise, they've gone and made things worse, rather than fix things. Even if they solve something in the short term, their methods create long lasting issues that eventually come back to bite the Federation in the rear end. We literally haven't seen a single time on camera where Section 31 did something with a even a net-positive outcome. They don't actually exist to protect utopia, they exist as a tumor that only cares about perpetuating itself at the expense of the whole.

Not quite. I'm arguing that, if a society has an institution, it implicitly says that this institution is necessary and right. That it is important, so the society can keep functioning. Especially with regards to Section 31 being completely useless, it simply should be dismantled. And yes, dismantling stuff can be hard, but this is also fiction. They are bad, throw them away. There can be all kinds of reasons, but they still are there, and shouldn't be. And as long as the Federation keeps them around, it is implied that they are an important, useful part of the system, backed by that system.

Also, the existence of people who still abuse substances or have untreated mental health issues also does not inherently imply that the society isn't strong enough to help them. In a just, fair, and liberal society, you can't just force people with problems to undergo treatment against their will. They have to be willing to accept help. The autonomy of the individual is sacrosanct. Forced intervention should only happen once a person becomes harmful to those around them, violating the autonomy of others. Anything else would be totalitarian in nature and very anti-Star Trek.

I'm not arguing that anyone should be forced to get help. That would be awful. Dunno, maybe I'm arguing that people should understand, through the way they are raised and through schools and society as a whole, that it is always better to seek help, especially in a society like the one in Picards Federation. I guess that doesn't work with the idea, that some people simply fall through the net, though. Society can only do so much.

I think I wrote this in the long post - looking too closely at a utopia will always show some problems. There is no way too closely examine the Federation, without seeing things that don't work as nicely as they should. Maybe I'm just arguing, that the Federation itself should never have been looked upon closer. Which has its own set of problems, I'm aware. So, no idea where that leaves me. Maybe I'm looking for a new show, where the utopia isn't right there? Where it's clearly the goal, a reachable one, but one that we never take a closer look upon? Just so we have a vision. I'm not sure.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I'm arguing that, if a society has an institution, it implicitly says that this institution is necessary and right. That it is important, so the society can keep functioning.

That’s the thing though. The society of the Federation doesn’t have a say in, or even is aware of Section 31. By the 24th Century, it’s an organization whose existence is completely hidden, and it operates completely out of bounds - being accountable to nobody. S31 is not an official, legitimate, government institution. It’s an extralegal, private, non-governmental entity.

 

[FelixSH]

I guess I completely forgot that. Nevermind then.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Hey remember that Lower Decks / Strange New World crossover that's actually somehow happening? Here's a blurry image!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1658475569217175553

I wasn't sure which series thread to put this one is so I went with the all-purpose Trek thread. But that's live action Boimler and Mariner being played by their actual voice actors!

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Boims doesn't have purple hair, 2/10 would not fug
omg guys I can't wait squeeeee!!!!

 

[FelixSH]

Oh
My
God
!

I never heard about this. What a pleasent (read: amazing) surprise.

 

[Sprite]

I hope they have to deal with a time paradox caused by Boimler getting way too excited while geeking out and telling people things they weren't supposed to know yet.

 

[FelixSH]

Doesn't it have to be some time paradox stuff? The crews are different eras, right?

 

[Aleryn]

Looks promising. I hope it doesn't bleed from the ears with fourth wall breakages, as an equal fan of both shows for starkly different reasons.

 

[YangusKhan]

Doesn't it have to be some time paradox stuff? The crews are different eras, right?

It could be a holodeck thing with the Lower Decks folks, but if that were the case I would expect it to be an animated episode and not live action.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I've hit the point in my continuous Star Trek rewatch cycle where I've looped back into TNG.

TNG is the Star Trek I grew up watching in my formative years, so it's very obviously important and very comfortable viewing to me. But the more as I got older, the more dissatisfied I became about very specific aspects of the show, and how certain ideas and long-hanging plot threads were never satisfyingly resolved or let fully play out.

And I cannot overstate how much I am enjoying this rewatch, fresh off the heels of Picard S3.

Like, those things I mentioned that bothered and nagged at me before? All I can do is smile now, and appreciate that even if belated by 30 years, that these things ended up getting a wonderful, tremendous conclusion.

It's like... imagine your favorite story in the world was was just left unfinished for 20 years. You never got to see the ending. But now magically and against all odds, you do. And it was better than you could have ever imagined. And it's so good it makes you go back and just appreciate the original thing that much more.

That's how I feel about TNG now. What a time to be alive.