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Legend of Mana: Remember me! Need me! I am love.

spines

cyber true color
(she/her, or something)
I really wanted to make a thread with this title. And this game deserves it.

Continued from the old Kawazu thread, since now the SaGa thread is just the SaGa thread. (Though maybe I'll post about Last Remnant there whenever I finally play it.) (But maybe not.) I know we also had the old fun club about it, but I only played for like an hour back then, so. Legend of Mana, but forever.

I'm not even sure what I expected from this game now that I'm playing it. It's one of demi's favs. She's player 2-ing all the characters and occasionally preventing me from stumbling or skipping over things randomly too much. Over time I've heard tons; back in the day there was a guy on speed demos archive who considered it his favorite game, though a lot of people were really down on it. I'd heard it was strange, and then by Kawazu, to the extent that a game by a major corporation is "by" any person, and then I got a better idea of what that means, and now that I've played most of the Mana and many of the SaGa games prior to it at least a little bit...well, none of that told me what it was.

It's Legend of Mana.

You create your self-insert and then kind of NPC for other people, in a way. There's a few big plotlines going on, all of which feel like a whole dramatic RPG on their own. Or, I dunno, this game moves kinda quick...but there's certainly that same sense from Frontier between the plotlines that they cross the same parts of the world, and only narrowly avoid intersecting if at all. Just it's reversed, now Daena and Elazul are the main characters and you're...like Lute or something, your house is on the map and they're not allowed to go inside but still know where to find you when they need something.

I still don't know what to make of the world and it's great. Are all of the regions (I guess now I'm just calling them that, hahaha) frozen from the same time, or different ones? I don't understand how the characters relate to the world, because the only frame of reference I have is the player's/character's and it's SUCH a strange one. People give you strange things as thanks, and you put them on the map, and people and things appear, and then you wander around them, and sometimes you think you're trying to do one thing, but then you suddenly run into a boss from a completely different quest. Or you're doing nothing at all, and something happens. It's like a dream, in form and surreal content, and when you try to keep dreaming the same dream to see what happens next, the next part won't happen. But then later it does.

There's lots of kids in this world. Most of them study magic, and have strange mechanical roles related to exploring the world, and learning. Sometimes they make fun of you, or misbehave knowingly, and you can just be cool with it, like the summer camp counselor everyone loves and hopes to see next year. I told Duelle that my name was "Chumpy" when he asked, and now there are NPCs who constantly ask if that's really my name, because Duelle told them. Li'l Cactus is also a child, I think. The name implies it, certainly. You tell him what happened, and then he writes about it. Sometimes he doesn't understand. Or he doesn't care. Or he thinks of something else because of what you said. Sometimes he just leaves because of something he heard. And then that's a quest.

Talking to him after the quest with the centaur guy and the basilisk lady was the second most Yoko Taro thing in the game so far. I laughed and felt a little bad.

The first, of course, is the Junkyard.

I hate Niccolo.

Most of the fruits are unbelievable visual/verbal puns. I can't comprehend what they were translated from. I half expect to open the copy of Ultimania on the shelf across the room later and find out that not only do they have different names, they actually redid some of the sprites so it'd be funnier.

I was high and named the Rabite "Gina". I thought it was hilarious. Now I'm just giving all my pets arbitrary human names.

Gina is scheming

I don't know what it means for a Rabite to be scheming. She tries to steal all the crystals when we fight bosses, even though I'm wearing the exp-share.

I mean, yeah, the combat is mostly easy, aside from that plant in the cage where I kept getting stuck on stuff and died like three times, but mostly I don't think I understand anything about this game.

It's Legend of Mana.
 
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To this day I still don't "get" the appeal of Legend of Mana. Not trying to bring anyone else down, it just didn't scratch the same itch as the SNES games.
 

Lokii

(He/Him)
Staff member
Moderator
I'm glad you're enjoying the game Spines! Legend is one of my favorites too, so props to SDA guy.

This is very much a game made with the intention of replays. Not only are there the three main branches, but so much of the setting, story, weird references in dialog, and mechanics only start to make sense when you're going through again with more context. Additional replays also open up the higher difficulty levels which makes the systems that seem extraneous at first much more crucial.

It's such a wild, unrestrained, deep, beautiful, surreal, touching game, and 1000000% Kawazu.

o11pXbd.png
 
To this day I still don't "get" the appeal of Legend of Mana. Not trying to bring anyone else down, it just didn't scratch the same itch as the SNES games.

It's not looking to scratch the same itch though so can't really blame anyone for bouncing off it. It is very much its own thing.
 

Pajaro Pete

(He/Himbo)
also the music sure is good

oh god the Promise arrangement album
(i guarantee you that if you're not familiar with the album you won't be able to predict what these renditions of Dominia and the City of Flickering Destruction sound like)
 
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Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
I haven't gone back to it, but I played the hell out of Legend back when it was new and loved the hell out of it. The setting, characters, and plots are all very weird and that's part of the charm. I think dream-like is indeed a good way to describe what it's going for. More about themes and feelings (and gorgeous sprite art and friggin amazing music) than coherent plot twists. And hell, even when I disagree with some of the themes it's pushing it's still beautiful while it's doing it.

ANd then all the layers and layers of weird Kawazu systems added on top of each other. Almost every single one is completely skippable if you're not into it (which I definitely see as a feature rather than a bug), but if you are you can wallow in it and break the mechanics over your kneww any number of ways. Good times.

Edit: oh hey, why do I not already own that Promise album? That's excellent.
 
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Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
I'm not sure the weapon crafting was meant to be understood by man: I tried improving a weapon on my own, and inevitably, I would find a way to make the weapon worse than when I started. I then looked up a guide and created a bow the likes of which were never meant for the hands of mortals.

Improving your monster companions was straightforward by comparison, and golems were somewhere in between but never actually worth the effort.
 

Pajaro Pete

(He/Himbo)
I'm not sure the weapon crafting was meant to be understood by man: I tried improving a weapon on my own, and inevitably, I would find a way to make the weapon worse than when I started. I then looked up a guide and created a bow the likes of which were never meant for the hands of mortals.

uAM4M1H.png
 

Pajaro Pete

(He/Himbo)
forging would probably be like 3% less bewildering if there was an in-game encyclopedia that listed what cards do what
 

Lokii

(He/Him)
Staff member
Moderator
I love that forging is so byzantine, its charm is in its opaqueness. The invisible slot gives me life.
 

Paul le Fou

24/7 lofi hip hop man to study/relax to
(He)
I remember very little about this game except I loved the visuals and really liked the game itself. I had only played a tiny bit of SoM and had bounced off of it, and I can't remember if my abortive and unimpressed attempt to emulate SD3 was before or after playing LoM. But even at the time, I remember a lot of people disliking it but I thought it was great. The soundtrack is so good (it's probably a go-to but I still listen to this song):
I think it was Swedish? Who cares, it fukken slaps.

This is one I would absolutely pick up if a rerelease or remaster came out.
 

spines

cyber true color
(she/her, or something)
First session in a couple weeks tonight. The two clear plotlines I'm on are really ramping up, with some big confrontations and the introduction of a few more Jumi characters taking up most of the time. (More shockingly, I was actually able to just get a couple of the fairy ones in a row, though for the jewels it's been a little more "I tried finding them in Geo and they weren't there until I was doing something else," hahaha. I was actually saved there from last time because Elazul was in the bedroom in my house, but he also just got up and left for no obvious reason).

I told the dream monster my name was Chumpy. And then entered the dream with Niccolo as my companion, and then there were two Niccolos. Dammit, Niccolo.

Oh, and after the fountain square questline started like 12 hours ago on this file I finally saw the next step (maybe?), with the monkey mailing himself to try and catch up to his partner. At this point I don't think I'm actually going to try looking for them, as it doesn't seem like it'll have any effect on whether or not I find them. (I admittedly walked over to the only mailbox I can remember in the game immediately, but other than that I don't have a particular idea.) Either I'll come across them or I won't.

it's a 50/50 chance

Anyway, the other thing that caught my attention tonight was the way that there are ambient sounds that kick in when you enter the towns from the world map during the loading screen, kind of filling in while waiting for the music track to start. I'm really fond of the sound design and all the music in this game in general, but it's stuff like that that I think really contributes to the kind of strange and ethereal atmosphere I'm often really enjoying the most.
 
To this day I still don't "get" the appeal of Legend of Mana. Not trying to bring anyone else down, it just didn't scratch the same itch as the SNES games.
I bounced off it pretty hard when it came out because it just wasn't what I was looking for in a game at the time. But I get why people like the game, and it does a lot of interesting things that are worthy of praise and worth discussing. I had two acquaintances in high school who were best friend with each other, and hearing them talk about their coop playthrough of the game really did a lot to both open my eyes and also make me feel pretty jealous of the fun they were having with it.
 
Legend of Mana is awesome. Love the character designs, especially the non-humanoids. There's a flirtatious pelican. There's a talking mountain. There's a guy who's just a piece of stained glass. It's great. The writing is... I mean, it sounds so pretentious to call the writing in a video game "deep", but I do think LoM explores some philosophical issues with more nuance than you typically see in this medium, particularly in the faerie storyline. The localization nails it, too.

Also, the Jumi directly inspired Steven Universe and you cannot convince me otherwise.
 

spines

cyber true color
(she/her, or something)
there do seem to be quite a lot of similarities there at the point i'm at, i agree. it makes more sense than trying to compare with land of the lustrous which seems to have only happened because they existed at about the same time
 
Yeah, I saw a lot of similarities when I replayed it a couple of years ago. What clinched it for me was the jewel thief saying "clod". That's so specific that I can't believe it was a coincidence.
 

Issun

Chumpy
(He/Him)
I used a wiki a few years ago to get every single scenario. It was cool, but it also ends up being a bit of a slog by the end.
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
I loved this game. I had the Prima strategy guide which had a few errors but generally worked. Then I decided I would figure out smithing, dammit, and had pages of handwritten notes tracking the stats that changed over time. I'm pretty sure I ended up with some insane weaponry although I don't remember for sure.

And of course the music in this game has to be mentioned.
 

spines

cyber true color
(she/her, or something)
near the end now, i think. i have a sword of mana. and a spoon i never remembered to put on the map. i put down the giant snake over the water near my house because i forgot what it was from and we did that, then bumbled around a bit till finding the last leg of the jumi storyline as well. only about a third of the world history book has entries though, so i think we might end up looking up how to fill that in since with a little of demi's inherent guidance we've finished about 2/3 of the quests in the game. not really fixated on rushing to see the ending, although i only have a bit of a guess what it'll be like...and that's if it's like SD2 and 3, which given the rest of the game it certainly might not be.

it's 2020 and i think abstract fmv backgrounds going off during boss defeat animations is super sick. bring that back

both of the storylines had some stuff i'll be thinking about for a while though, and more than that i'm really impressed by the way the game's writing works with its structure, if not exactly surprised, given some of the other kawazu games like saga frontier or romancing saga 2. the progression is very free and often disorienting (hence...the first post in this thread), but it's not exactly a plot-centric game, and the focus on more nonlinear, thematic, and emotional stories over direct narrative threads revolving around the player character really meshes with the strange interactions and role you have in the world. i think along with that a lot of the dialogue options that come up aren't clearly "right" or "wrong" in terms of story or mechanical implications, but they can do a lot to make me consider what the story and characters are, and are about. and that's my favorite of all.

and i've gotten a little more adjusted to the rhythm of the game. i think, again, that a lot of kawazu's games revolve around these kinds of ritual cycles, which i'm super into in general. stuff like the party-making in rs2 after timeskips, the mail and road scenes between areas in crystal chronicles (which i've really only poked a bit, but kind of feels like this game in a few ways...gonna probably dig into it more soon), or shopping around and repairing stuff between adventures in unlimited saga...there's stuff like the trees, checking in on pets, or visiting the workshop, that's all a bit more superfluous and not necessary to do every time, but has that same feel, and the general sense of wandering around the world to see what's moved or changed since the last time you were there that kind of has a materially similar feeling to usaga or rs2. although that element has slowed up a bit as it seems like a lot of event lines seem to be kind of drying up and a lot of areas don't seem to have changed since the last time i was there, so it's getting harder (though certainly not impossible) to stumble unexpectedly onto things, or find quests i don't already have. but i really like it, even if it'll probably be a while before i play it again.
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
although i only have a bit of a guess what it'll be like...and that's if it's like SD2 and 3, which given the rest of the game it certainly might not be.

I'd love for you to say more about this (before or after you finish the game), really curious what you're thinking.
 

spines

cyber true color
(she/her, or something)
well, the sort of obvious throughline of the later stretches of those two games to me is that there's a kind of bittersweet element, that the world is changed and wounded by the battle to defeat evil, and a sort of personal loss (though not death) of the heroes' companion (the fairy/sprite). the latter part i really can't say i'd expect, since the closest character to that role in this game is...li'l cactus, and...well, that seems like it'd be a little out of left field. i know that i'm saying that about this game, but still.

i think on a slightly more abstract level, there's a kind of sense to me of a cyclical narrative in secret and trials, where the same kinds of conflicts arise repeatedly as the power of mana reaches its height. i feel like this is the kind of angle i'm just inclined to take into things and i'm maybe overlooking something a bit contradictory to that view (i mean i certainly wouldn't straight up argue something like that the alternate stories are just like different "loops" of similar events 1000 years apart in trials or whatever, that really doesn't seem to be the intent, although it's sort of an interesting lens to view the different paths through a bit for me...), though it's something that the conversation between nunuzac and pokiehl before you get the sword seemed to call back to a bit, and that nunuzac's argument is that the result will just be the same violence of the past continued... it's definitely the biggest element of the game that really feels like a callback or tie-in to the previous ones (and i know this isn't a "numbered" game in the series or anything, not that it would have a need to call back more than it does even if it were).

but, i meann, that's part of why i don't know, since that's the only element of the game that's clearly been like a kind of "central" plot at all, and everything else, while generally thematically rich (and really, the Jumi story already kind of goes into a kind of "rebirth" theme in a few ways), isn't the sort of thing that i'm expecting the ending to revole around, especially when a lot of it gets resolution already. plus i still don't entirely understand the world. or even the nature of player character for that matter; i kind of hope and expect it won't be explained, though if not, the implication that you just kind of appeared in an empty world kind of has shades of isekai stories these days. hahaha

i guess in the end i'm mostly hoping that it's not like "the world gets sealed back into artifacts" or something

(really, even thinking about how to word this, i was really struck by the kinds of similarities between the snes mana games and tales of phantasia narratively, with the elemental spirits and conflict over the source of mana (which is also a tree, obviously) as the central elements of that game's plot as well. and it has a bit of the cyclical stuff going on with cress and mint having a sort of guardian duty inherited from their parents, who passed it down from the distant past. but then it goes on to having the party members chase the antagonist through time and fight him repeatedly. which is kind of different.)
 

Violentvixen

(She/Her)
I keep starting to respond but then get worried that I'm spoiling something! Still, this is all really interesting and I'm curious to see your thoughts after completing the game.

I've never played Tales of Phantasia, I should check that out.
 

spines

cyber true color
(she/her, or something)
I put down the spoon and...it turned out to be the start of the dragon storyline. I'd just forgotten where it even came from because I held it for so long? But, seemingly for lack of much else to sprinkle in the middle (or maybe it's just because the arc's characters and events appear in more predictable places), that was pretty easy to run through in a night's session. I received a monster egg right before the end, though, so even though I wasn't sure there was much else I'd find easily, I wandered around a bit at the start of tonight's session waiting for it to hatch. This led to an event in Lumina where Diddle ran away again; my first reaction was "okay, I'll lap around the towns again, but if I don't find anything..." but then as soon as I made it home and left again the game very quickly gave me a very obvious sequence of hints for now to progress it. And the pet was an Ox, so I put them in my party immediately, then went to the underworld.

Anyway, I'd never figured out much to do on the pirate ship, and there were a couple of other quests that I never stumbled upon any progression for (most obviously the centaur, still a statue in Kristie's basement), but I went back home for one more brief session of fucking around with crafting before putting the sword down. I had like four BraveBlades in the inventory and was sick of using a spear (which I'd originally equipped because it had the highest attack number of all my weapons, but the weapon is such a janky hassle to use compared to many others, with very finicky ranges and timing), so I threw a bunch of items on a couple of them, then crafted a suit of armor of Orichalcum.

At which point a clear concept occurred to me: I could turn it into a haunted suit of armor. I put a couple of GhostWails (maybe that's not quite the right name?) on it, and then a couple of GraveDirts, the second of which caused the "Dying Earth" card to appear. "Holy shit, this game rules" I said, seeing that.

Even in Legend of Mana I'm kind of an edgelord.

And then I grabbed Lisa from the house and ran through all the towns one more time to make sure nothing had suddenly appeared, and learned that all the mage kids have the names of spices, which is another very RS2 thing that really cements how much they're one of my favorite parts of the game. But then I put the sword down, and we went to the end. The area seemed pretty simple, a lot shorter and less confusing than the penultimate dungeons, but really beautiful. I loved the return of the theme from the opening movie. And the boss was a bit tense but not very long.

The ending was nice, foreshadowed a lot more than I'd thought about in terms of the sproutlings, but about as ambiguous as I would've hoped. Of course there's plenty to think about, though, I'm sure I'll have more thoughts I may or may not post about here, but

before the fight, the Goddess says again: "I am love." Before that, she also says that her goodness is only half of her. And the game's major storylines are about destructive (whether selfish, as in the fairy storyline, or self-destructive, which comes up a lot for the Jumi) and tragic love, for the most part. It's hard not to think about the way that Capella, in the quest I'd done right before the ending, declared his love for life and the world, but even that relatively innocuous love is capable of causing kinds of harm (like in the quest before that where he read the letter and then lied about it, at least with my choices...) For an idea that I think is often handled in a way that's very simplistic and cliche-"the power of love" and all that-I really enjoyed the ways the game frames this idea, and the extent to which the story accepts and loves its flawed characters, and it felt all the more meaningful to experience that alongside someone I care a lot about. Cool credits, too.

I still hate Niccolo.

Anyway, even aside from all that specific stuff, part of what I enjoy about games like this which don't have the "your choices matter!!" (give you a different ending scene, etc.) angle but are extremely non-linear is that the way different elements of the game and story feel is based on but not consciously controlled by the player. There may not have been many places where I caused something "different" or unusual to happen based on choices I made (although I remember that I did accidentally terminate a Niccolo questline at some point by allowing myself to get swept up in an event with Escad that was happening in the same place at the same time, haha), but my interpretation of the story, and the ways that I interacted with and felt about events was definitely colored by all of the things that happened because they appeared unexpectedly, interrupted other plans I'd had, and so on. And there were scenes where it seemed obvious my dialogue prompt wasn't going to give me another ending or affect things beyond the current event, but did offer a chance to consider the meaning and themes of the storyline in question. It may not have been entirely on the level of something like SaGa: Scarlet Grace where I talked with demi and other people about stuff that happened and was completely unable to pinpoint whatever seemingly minor action I'd taken that caused extremely different outcomes later (since that game has a handful of moments with extremely obvious branching outcomes, but a lot of things you can do cause things to change down the pipe in extremely unclear ways).

Overall, I really enjoyed it, and like any good RPG was only more fond of and excited about it at the end than early on. While having finished all of the "main" events and a pretty significant portion of the minor ones (while also being sufficiently in the dark about what I didn't see or whatever else could've happened) means I'm not left with quite the same "there's so much I wanted to see still!" feeling that I often get, it's such a nice and freeing world to hang out in that I still won't be surprised if I pick up a new game plus or whatever it is at some point.
 

Mightyblue

aggro table, shmaggro table
(He/Him/His)
Kind of an odd choice to only upscale the prerendered backgrounds, but it's also LoM soooooooo...
 

Becksworth

Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
Kind of an odd choice to only upscale the prerendered backgrounds, but it's also LoM soooooooo...
They may have had the source drawings for the prerendered backgrounds still, while the sprite work may have never had a higher resolution source in the first place.
 

Sprite

(He/Him/His)
I am extremely excited, and will probably buy it for Switch and Steam. The option to turn off encounters addresses the worst problem in the game so this will definitely be my go-to for replays. And as much as I'd enjoy a remake that had an actually good battle system, I'm glad they went the remaster route rather than try and convert the gorgeous art to serviceable 3D.
 
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