Gripe about What You're Playing 2: Bellyache-tric Boogaloo

[ASandoval]

I rewatched GMTK's video on Hollow Knight a few days ago for a thing I'm working on, and Mark mentions the corpse run as one of the things that doesn't work in the game. Specifically he mentions how it prevents you from exploring new areas if you lose interest or feel unprepared for in the area where you died. It's a good point, and one that I also felt playing Hollow Knight. It made me want to dig a bit deeper into it since I really don't mind it so much in Souls games and I think it falls primarily on how punishing a corpse run is.

In Souls games, you eventually learn that losing your souls/blood/exp whatever isn't really a big deal, even a large amount of them. You'll always be able to get it back. This is really important for Elden Ring, where like Hollow Knight there are a lot of branching paths and other areas you can explore as opposed to the earlier Souls games which encourage you to finish the current area that you're exploring. Hollow Knight doesn't have a leveling system (nor should it), so instead you have to go back for your money and half your magic meter. It's really the latter that's the problem since magic is both amazing for offense and your main resource for healing.

If it had just been money, I don't think it would have been as big of a deal. Money is much less important in the latter half of the game and very easy to come by. It's so non-essential and wouldn't have the same psychological impact that losing souls does that honestly the best decision probably would have been to cut the mechanic altogether. Ultimately I think its less that corpse runs = bad* then that in Hollow Knight it feels like the mechanic is there because Team Cherry leaned a little too hard on the Dark Souls inspiration in this instance.

*EDIT: Just wanted to add the probably obvious addendum that this is meant more as a clarifying statement and less than an indictment of anyone's taste. There's also mechanics as well as whole genres that do not work for me even in their best form. Not liking corpse runs in general is fine, but also Hollow Knight's implementation isn't particularly great either, at least in my view.

 

[Regulus]

I do agree that it's not a great fit for a number of games that use it. Shovel Knight's implementation just feels kind of pointless, for example.

There's a vaguely similar discussion to be had on the merits of the lives systems that classic Mega Man games use. From what I've seen elsewhere the MM style lives system is pretty commonly reviled as "outdated game design" these days. But I think that it has a positive effect on the Mega Man gameplay loop - it encourages the player to try one of the 7 other available stages rather than repeatedly bang their head against a boss that is giving them trouble.

 

[Patrick]

I always see it as a bonus in Souls. Like, a lot of games make you reload the last save when you die. You don't get to keep anything that you collected. In Souls, you can double/triple/whatever the amount of souls that you collect from an area as long as you keep making some progress. And, there is almost always some way to spend those souls in a hub. Like, you can just buy a bunch of herbs or throwing knives or whatever, so you're not carrying around your life savings all the time.

So yeah, I think it's an issue of how it's implemented rather than an issue with the mechanic at a high level.

 

[Octopus Prime]

I do agree that it's not a great fit for a number of games that use it. Shovel Knight's implementation just feels kind of pointless, for example.

There's a vaguely similar discussion to be had on the merits of the lives systems that classic Mega Man games use. From what I've seen elsewhere the MM style lives system is pretty commonly reviled as "outdated game design" these days. But I think that it has a positive effect on the Mega Man gameplay loop - it encourages the player to try one of the 7 other available stages rather than repeatedly bang their head against a boss that is giving them trouble.

Furthermore, it also gives a greater sense of urgency when you reach the boss after using up most of your lives, really makes it feel like experimenting with your weapons is the right decision since you won’t get another try easily

 

[FelixSH]

This isn't really a gripe, I'm just a bit frustrated with Pure Vessel in Hollow Knight. I'm at 119%, and would really like to get the very last one, but that fight is so hard, and I'm not sure if this is just me finally getting to my limits. I could learn the other final battles of the pantheons, but Pure Vessel is a different level. It actually wouldn't be a problem, if he didn't do two points of damage, instead of one. Just more than I can handle. I did beat him two times, in the hall, where I can challenge individual bosses as often as I want, but I lose most of the times. Not going through the whole pantheon, if I can't beat that jerk consistantly.

It's just that I'm not sure how fair the fight on the whole is. Most stuff is fine, and as mentioned, it might be that my reflexes are at their limits. But he has this annoying attack, where he shoots a bunch of swords at you, and for some reason, they hit me way too often. If he just slashes at me, or does that sting attack, I'm fine. But in combination with that other attack (and the one where he lets beams of light come out of the ground, not great at that either, but I at least get better), he overwhelms me way too often.

Again, not a real gripe, just a bit of frustration. I guess after I did that, I still have to beat the game, and I guess it will be the upgraded Radiance fight. Which means another boss that will annihilate me. I get it, there is no need to get all 112%, it's for the people who are really good at the game. Just feels like a weird, final difficulty spike.

 

[R.R. Bigman]

I started a mahjong game on my iPhone called Mahjong Soul. The problem isn’t with the game. The gripe is that I think I don’t have enough brain power left to learn a completely new kind of game. It’s a little depressing!

 

[madhair60]

This isn't really a gripe, I'm just a bit frustrated with Pure Vessel in Hollow Knight. I'm at 119%, and would really like to get the very last one, but that fight is so hard, and I'm not sure if this is just me finally getting to my limits. I could learn the other final battles of the pantheons, but Pure Vessel is a different level. It actually wouldn't be a problem, if he didn't do two points of damage, instead of one. Just more than I can handle. I did beat him two times, in the hall, where I can challenge individual bosses as often as I want, but I lose most of the times. Not going through the whole pantheon, if I can't beat that jerk consistantly.

It's just that I'm not sure how fair the fight on the whole is. Most stuff is fine, and as mentioned, it might be that my reflexes are at their limits. But he has this annoying attack, where he shoots a bunch of swords at you, and for some reason, they hit me way too often. If he just slashes at me, or does that sting attack, I'm fine. But in combination with that other attack (and the one where he lets beams of light come out of the ground, not great at that either, but I at least get better), he overwhelms me way too often.

Again, not a real gripe, just a bit of frustration. I guess after I did that, I still have to beat the game, and I guess it will be the upgraded Radiance fight. Which means another boss that will annihilate me. I get it, there is no need to get all 112%, it's for the people who are really good at the game. Just feels like a weird, final difficulty spike.

Wouldn't there be one more Pantheon to do after this one as well?

If it's any consolation, the "true final boss" is not that bad imo. Not compared to many of the other challenges.

I didn't do the pantheons myself. I beat the evolved Radiance and walked away. That was enough. I loved the game and wanted to keep loving it!