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A Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy: The Star Wars Thread
So the acolyte is dead forever.
I've seen a lot of people posting about how the requirements for a streaming show to get continued are untenable corporate nonsense that virtually no show could reasonably meet. And they're right! The standards held by companies like Disney and Netflix are absolutely insane and it's a terrible way to approach anything that can be described as art!
But also, like.
The show wasn't good.
I've seen a lot of people posting about how the requirements for a streaming show to get continued are untenable corporate nonsense that virtually no show could reasonably meet. And they're right! The standards held by companies like Disney and Netflix are absolutely insane and it's a terrible way to approach anything that can be described as art!
But also, like.
The show wasn't good.
The ostensible main character of the show, and titular Acolyte, was probably the least interesting character in the show. And that's not really a good recipe for longevity/a warm reception by fans.
Not that that can kill a show by itself - same situation applies to Andor. It's just, doesn't make the job any easier. Especially when you kill off all the other characters that are interesting
Not that that can kill a show by itself - same situation applies to Andor. It's just, doesn't make the job any easier. Especially when you kill off all the other characters that are interesting
I don't think it was a great show, but I think it had an interesting take on some aspects of Star Wars, and I wanted to see where it would go in a second season. It's a shame it won't have any space to dig into that anymore.
Yeah. Character could probably carry his own series.
I'd guess the show might get a novel or comic sequel to tie off some of the threads.
I'd guess the show might get a novel or comic sequel to tie off some of the threads.
I haven't watched Acolyte, but I'm more worried that this will have a cooling effect on the franchise daring to go in any different directions or try new things, and solidify it into deepening the same old narrow universe rut over and over.
That's kinda what I'm trying to get at, yeah. Anything that isn't an instant success is canceled, and things that try a different thing and don't quite pull it off tend to be in that category.
Acolyte wasn’t just “not an instant success” - it was their worst performing show to date IIRC.
I agree it had some interesting ideas, but it did a really bad job at exploring those ideas in the first place. Like, this show did almost nothing with its setting in the High Republic, since it was set almost exclusively in barren locales/sound stages.
The good thing about ideas though, is that if those ideas are sound, they can have other shows explore them too.
I also get being worried about the franchise holders shying away from trying new ideas, but like… this is Disney we’re talking about… the House of Mouse is the wrong place to be in all together if you’re worried about that.
I agree it had some interesting ideas, but it did a really bad job at exploring those ideas in the first place. Like, this show did almost nothing with its setting in the High Republic, since it was set almost exclusively in barren locales/sound stages.
The good thing about ideas though, is that if those ideas are sound, they can have other shows explore them too.
I also get being worried about the franchise holders shying away from trying new ideas, but like… this is Disney we’re talking about… the House of Mouse is the wrong place to be in all together if you’re worried about that.
This isn't a hair I'm interested in splitting, not least because only Disney really knows its metrics here. The point is that no streamer gives much of anything time to grow an audience over multiple seasons anymore. Willow got canned from the service completely, like it never existed. It's a trend I hate. Shows used to often be allowed to barely hang on for three or four seasons, and they're just not anymore. I'm going to be bothered by it even if it's expected from Disney.
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No streamer? Or just Disney/Netflix?
CBS/Paramount gave Star Trek: Discovery 5 seasons to establish itself before pulling the plug, which is probably way more than it deserved. Meanwhile, they're also going bankrupt and having to sell their company off, so maybe they should have been more ruthless before now.
I think the reality is that this streaming business is not as financially viable as people would have hoped. Making these shows are expensive, and so is running these services. Couple that with the fact that they don't have to rely on unreliable traditional metrics like Neilsen Ratings, and can know exactly how many eyeballs are watching their things, down to the second-by-second breakdown of when people tune out... as well as the fact that this isn't the 80s/90s and TV audiences aren't held captive anymore, it's really all just the natural outcome of capitalism at work.
Which, ya. It sucks. But I'm just trying to enjoy things right now as they are. Because as much as this current climate doesn't feel ideal, I just assume it's all going to get a LOT worse in the not too distant future.
Sinking money into five seasons of a show that isn't catching is a lot different than sinking money into a second season (especially when you are Disney, and have tremendous wealth and a lot of profit compared to Paramount's losses, including a streaming profit for the first time recently) and seeing if it'll catch after people have had a year or two to watch the thing instead of just two or three months (a delayed watch schedule that I'm frequently on). And is Paramount still doing that now? Anymore? They canceled Prodigy.
In any case, my time is limited, and it's difficult for me to want to invest time in watching a new Star Wars show if even Star Wars shows are now getting the axe this quick, which means the next show they put out I might not watch at all, and that's a direct result of decisions like canceling new shows quickly.
It may indeed get worse, but that's not really important to whether or not I like what's happening now, and I don't. I can like what's worse even less, later, when it's here. And frankly I'm unmoved by business reasons; I don't work for Disney, so they're not my problem. This is my problem and what I'm concerned about as a customer, which factors into whether or not I renew my subscription at its increased rate in a month or two, and Disney's internal balance sheets don't have much to do with that for me. I don't care about them. I'm looking at Disney+'s value to me, and it is diminishing based on this and other factors.
In any case, my time is limited, and it's difficult for me to want to invest time in watching a new Star Wars show if even Star Wars shows are now getting the axe this quick, which means the next show they put out I might not watch at all, and that's a direct result of decisions like canceling new shows quickly.
It may indeed get worse, but that's not really important to whether or not I like what's happening now, and I don't. I can like what's worse even less, later, when it's here. And frankly I'm unmoved by business reasons; I don't work for Disney, so they're not my problem. This is my problem and what I'm concerned about as a customer, which factors into whether or not I renew my subscription at its increased rate in a month or two, and Disney's internal balance sheets don't have much to do with that for me. I don't care about them. I'm looking at Disney+'s value to me, and it is diminishing based on this and other factors.
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I think people severely exaggerate how many new ideas The Acolyte had. Despite being set during the relatively unexplored High Republic era, it really felt like I was watching something set at most a few years before the prequels.
Critically (90%+ RT rating as a quick measure): Mandalorian, Andor, The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi
Financially: TFA, TLJ, and TROS all made over a billion; presumably Mandalorian and Andor were successes by whatever streaming metrics Disney judges by, and Ahsoka either did well enough or is important enough to future plans that another season is coming.
Not considering animated shows here.
Financially: TFA, TLJ, and TROS all made over a billion; presumably Mandalorian and Andor were successes by whatever streaming metrics Disney judges by, and Ahsoka either did well enough or is important enough to future plans that another season is coming.
Not considering animated shows here.
It didn't have many, but it had any. Or if not new ideas, then at least some expansion on ideas that haven't been explored that much yet in live action.
I should watch Andor. I heard a ton of good things about it, but I was not ready for more Star Wars after Boba Fett. I heard bad things about Obi Wan too. The whole series just seems really uneven these days.
Boba Fett and Obi-Wan felt like movie pitches that were repurposed into shows. Each only had enough juice in them for about a movie's worth of entertainment, but were stretched thin over the course of a show, and thus were really hard watches. The quality of each's story also was only about good enough for a made-for-tv film as well, not something you'd pack a theater for. Each have good moments, but they're few and far between.
I'd also argue both have inherently bad premises as well. Obi-Wan's story is a zero-sum game since it's an interstitial thing that involves important characters whose outcomes can't change all that drastically because the original trilogy still has to happen. (On a side note, this is a problem with a lot of spin-off material in the Gundam franchise.) Boba Fett is also a TV show designed around a character who had a sum total of like 3 lines in the original trilogy, so there really isn't much interesting there to work with from the get go. It's so lacking of interesting things and ideas that it expends a good third of its runtime not having anything to do with Boba Fett, and just decides to hang out with Mando instead. Which kinda ought to tell you how confident the showrunners were in the material they were working with.
Andor is the thing to watch.
Andor is incredible.
Obi-Wan I actually really enjoyed. It's not consistently great but the high points are very high.
Obi-Wan I actually really enjoyed. It's not consistently great but the high points are very high.
Andor is good. That and Mandalorian season 1 are really the only ones you need to bother with, imo (though I haven't seen Boba Fett, Mando 3, or Ahsoka, though I kind of doubt they'd move me that much based on everything I've heard).
Mando S2 is really good too, imo. S3 hits diminishing returns as it starts folding in more and more Filoni animated show stuff (and BOBF's last three episodes are essentially Mando S2.5). If you're interested in seeing how some plotlines set down in Clone Wars and Rebels resolve, Mando 3 is going to be more your thing. It's a lot less its own show. Still some good stuff in it though. Ahsoka is Rebels Season 5 in all but name.
I had a decent time with Ashoka and enjoyed it, even though I don't know anything about Rebels. But I would not fault anyone for not liking the show or thinking its boring. It had a lot of problems, misfires, and typical plotting nonsense that doesn't really hold up under the barest levels of scrutiny. It very much felt a lot like the most recent Antman movie where there's some interesting stuff, but a lot of misfires, and trying to stuff a bunch of High-Stakes Long-Term Franchise-Building Foundation-Work into a show about a side-character.
It's not like they had much else.
The Last Jedi blew my mind when I saw it and still holds up. I consider it the official end of the star wars movie canon.
Andor is absolutely gripping, but I have no idea if season 2 will be able to stick the landing leading into...
Rouge One. I liked it well enough but it's been awhile since I've seen it. Probably hold off on a rewatch until Andor's over.
I would skip literally everything else.
Purple
(She/Her)
I'm gonna stick up for The Force Awakens. When it was first released, I feel like opinions were split between "Did... did they make a Star Wars movie that actually felt like a Star Wars movie? Is it safe to leave the prequels fallout shelter?" and "yeah it was OK but holy crap have you seen this new Mad Max thing?" and it was obviously later overshadowed by The Last Jedi, which is just phenomenal, but just taking it on its own merits:
- Kylo Ren is the perfect new Star Wars villain. The series being what it is, your only real villain options are another evil space wizard, which nobody really wants (and while we acknowledge we maybe have one here, he is... not a character, we just need a call the boss and check in scene), or you try to do Darth Vader again, which is just going to have disappointing results. So the choice made here is "oh we do Darth Vader again with disappointing results but we totally lean into that and guy's entire deal is just being this wannabe poser with a massive inferiority complex" and yeah turns out that works GREAT.
- The first order in general also largely works, and for the same reasons. Helps that this movie launched right in the middle of neo-nazis having a bit of a moment and in particular being extremely loud and trying to do dumb culture war stuff by review bombing movies that aren't just about white guys, so, yeah, good time to have a bunch of pathetic neo-space-nazis who plainly don't really have a plan beyond cargo culty emulation of Star Wars villains and isn't storm trooper armor badass? Plus you've got Hux. And like... wow did that actor understand the assignment.
- We're taking a nice long sober look at 30 years of fanfic/licensed novels just kind of assuming oh obviously Han and Leia are gonna have at least one super powerful Jedi kid because the force is clearly something passed down through blood like the divine right of kinds and Luke's gonna train their kids and any other young new Jedi etc. etc. and just... filters it through the fact that if you really look at the cast of Star Wars, none of these people really have it together enough to be decent parents or hold down a functioning marriage and none of that is actually going to work out. Which is also a nice status quo shakeup which I'll note this whole movie actually does stick with.
- Han Solo's death is a really well-done scene and I don't think I've seen anyone argue to the contrary.
- While the structure of the whole thing is very much "here is A Star Wars movie, we tried to make it as A Star Wars Movie as we could," it executes on that pretty damn well? We've got a lot of real nice exotic alien scenery, some novel visuals that really stick with you (it didn't really strike me at the time how good that whole freeze-the-blaster-bolt-in-mid-air bit is, but then I watched that mostly unwatchable anime anthology thing and it CLEARLY left a big impression on a good number of people), lots of good practical muppet-y aliens, and a big laser sword fight for the climax with some good emotional bits/samurai movie visuals, reasonable choreography, and it's all allowed to breathe and have dialog rather than just cranking the big operatic soundtrack dial to 20. For real, if it's been a while this is a good good scene:
It's not the only one either.
- We've got a neat pile of characters who don't fit the standard fantasy mold that well. We've got a main villain in this weird state where it seems like any minute he's gonna have a big ol' change of heart but it just keeps not happening and he doubles down on being awful. We've got a protagonist with obvious trauma she does not share with anyone, and who kinda stopped reading the whole "hero's journey" thing right after the reject the call step and just keeps on rejecting for like the entire movie, and we've got this reforming evil mook kinda vacillating between "well maybe I'M the big chosen one hero" and "OK I am actually legitimately in way over my head," and all of those arcs feed into a really fantastic sequel. It SURE WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE if they'd made some kinda third movie to resolve all these in interesting ways, but it's not THIS movie's fault that didn't happen, and if this just did not get any sequels (or got just the one) there's plenty to fuel your imagination on where their trajectories would take them that are fun to consider.
- BB-8.
- The first order in general also largely works, and for the same reasons. Helps that this movie launched right in the middle of neo-nazis having a bit of a moment and in particular being extremely loud and trying to do dumb culture war stuff by review bombing movies that aren't just about white guys, so, yeah, good time to have a bunch of pathetic neo-space-nazis who plainly don't really have a plan beyond cargo culty emulation of Star Wars villains and isn't storm trooper armor badass? Plus you've got Hux. And like... wow did that actor understand the assignment.
- We're taking a nice long sober look at 30 years of fanfic/licensed novels just kind of assuming oh obviously Han and Leia are gonna have at least one super powerful Jedi kid because the force is clearly something passed down through blood like the divine right of kinds and Luke's gonna train their kids and any other young new Jedi etc. etc. and just... filters it through the fact that if you really look at the cast of Star Wars, none of these people really have it together enough to be decent parents or hold down a functioning marriage and none of that is actually going to work out. Which is also a nice status quo shakeup which I'll note this whole movie actually does stick with.
- Han Solo's death is a really well-done scene and I don't think I've seen anyone argue to the contrary.
- While the structure of the whole thing is very much "here is A Star Wars movie, we tried to make it as A Star Wars Movie as we could," it executes on that pretty damn well? We've got a lot of real nice exotic alien scenery, some novel visuals that really stick with you (it didn't really strike me at the time how good that whole freeze-the-blaster-bolt-in-mid-air bit is, but then I watched that mostly unwatchable anime anthology thing and it CLEARLY left a big impression on a good number of people), lots of good practical muppet-y aliens, and a big laser sword fight for the climax with some good emotional bits/samurai movie visuals, reasonable choreography, and it's all allowed to breathe and have dialog rather than just cranking the big operatic soundtrack dial to 20. For real, if it's been a while this is a good good scene:
- We've got a neat pile of characters who don't fit the standard fantasy mold that well. We've got a main villain in this weird state where it seems like any minute he's gonna have a big ol' change of heart but it just keeps not happening and he doubles down on being awful. We've got a protagonist with obvious trauma she does not share with anyone, and who kinda stopped reading the whole "hero's journey" thing right after the reject the call step and just keeps on rejecting for like the entire movie, and we've got this reforming evil mook kinda vacillating between "well maybe I'M the big chosen one hero" and "OK I am actually legitimately in way over my head," and all of those arcs feed into a really fantastic sequel. It SURE WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE if they'd made some kinda third movie to resolve all these in interesting ways, but it's not THIS movie's fault that didn't happen, and if this just did not get any sequels (or got just the one) there's plenty to fuel your imagination on where their trajectories would take them that are fun to consider.
- BB-8.
Agreed with Purple on all points.
TFA was "Star Wars is back, baby!" Totally a blast. Some weak points here and there but the good stuff was executed so well it carries the whole deal.
TLJ also a blast but hit the major plot points of ROTJ and left the field open to something new, like "Maybe Star Wars can be Star Wars, but also something more."
TROS was "LOL no, I won't let it." A disaster and an insult.
TFA was "Star Wars is back, baby!" Totally a blast. Some weak points here and there but the good stuff was executed so well it carries the whole deal.
TLJ also a blast but hit the major plot points of ROTJ and left the field open to something new, like "Maybe Star Wars can be Star Wars, but also something more."
TROS was "LOL no, I won't let it." A disaster and an insult.