• Welcome to Talking Time's third iteration! If you would like to register for an account, or have already registered but have not yet been confirmed, please read the following:

    1. The CAPTCHA key's answer is "Percy"
    2. Once you've completed the registration process please email us from the email you used for registration at percyreghelper@gmail.com and include the username you used for registration

    Once you have completed these steps, Moderation Staff will be able to get your account approved.

The Metroid Thread: BOMB ALL THE WALLS!

Becksworth

Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
As mentioned in the Dread Thread, we don't have a general Metroid thread, so I'm making one. Seems appropriate with the Prime remaster out now to have a general purpose thread.

But I'm not here to talk about that. Instead I want to bring up Metroid Planets. It was originally a PC remake of the original Metroid with improved animations and a 2nd planet, but it has since expanded into a procedurally generated Metroid randomizer fueled by community content. Looks neat.

 
Last edited:

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
Seeing NES Samus shoot downwards is wild lol. I'll have to give that a shot!
 

RT-55J

space hero for hire
(He/Him + RT/artee)
Metroid Planets' second planet, Novus, is an RT Certified Classic™️. Do not skip out on it just because "procgen metroid world with user created rooms" sounds like a more immediately interesting hook.

Enigma itself is pretty cool, though it is very much a garbage-in-garbage-out kind of ordeal --- gotta make sure to your roomset is well curated. I used to make rooms for it a while back, but do to some circumstances I fell off the update train for several months and still haven't gotten my groove back.

(note that due to enigma-related refactoring the latest build of planets doesn't currently have Novus, but the download for the last version that has it should be right next to the current one lol)

I have unlimited thoughts (of varying levels of vapidity) on metroid and metroid hacks, so I will forbear clogging up the thread anymore right now except to reiterate my recommendation in the Dread thread for Super Metroid Subversion:


I wasn't too impressed by the hack at first, but by the end of it I was won over. Those two authors spent seven years making the hack and the editor they used, and the effort clearly paid off.
 

Mr. Sensible

Pitch and Putt Duffer
Wanted to give a shout-out to Project Base, a Super Metroid hack that focuses on quality-of-life improvements such as faster character movement and slightly tweaked map layouts and graphics.

Unlike many SM hacks, this one aims to create a smoother experience rather than tossing insane challenges at players, and it doesn't seem to be any more difficult than Super. If anything, it might be a bit easier.

Heck, just being able to button through the "you got an item" fanfare is very much appreciated, and it's fun discovering all the other little nips and tucks they made to the original game.
 

SpoonyBard

Threat Rhyme
(He/Him)
Though there's already a thread for randos I feel it's appropriate to mention the various Super Metroid randomizers out there.

First off is probably the most extensively customizable, VARIA. Featuring item randomization as well as area randomization and door color randomization, along with a plethora of other settings you can tweak to your heart's content. You can even create a profile and input your ability to do certain tricks and how difficult you find them and the randomizer will take all that into account when generating seeds for you. Probably one of the most polished randomizers out there for any game.

Next is the Super Metroid - A Link To the Past crossover randomizer, which has you jumping back and forth between the two games through some kind of romhacking witchcraft I don't fully understand but it's pretty danged amazing. Find the Gravity Suit in Turtle Rock! Find the Hook Shot behind Crocomire! Trip over dozens of missiles and rupees because they're still the most common items in both games! I recommend playing with the 'Keysanity' setting to mix up the LTTP dungeon keys in the normal randomized item pool, and it even adds keys and locked doors in Super Metroid to deal with. If I had one gripe it's that you don't have the same level of minute control over aspects of the difficulty that VARIA gives you so your Super Metroid difficulty settings are 'can do most basics tricks' or 'are a professional speedrunner that can low% Ridley'.

Finally a recent one but not one to sleep on, the Map Randomizer. This one cuts up the entire Super Metroid world into individual rooms and splices them all together in a random order and somehow it all works. Even the ingame map works. It just works. This one definitely is one to watch, as it's still in development and is updated fairly frequently. I've had a lot of fun with it for the past few weeks and so far every run has felt fresh, and new options keep coming.

Honestly Super Metroid is probably my single most-played videogame of the past year thanks to randomizers.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
Basically it's like the late 80s and early 90s when people started chopping up pop music into increasingly strange and alien forms then
 

Becksworth

Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
Enigma itself is pretty cool, though it is very much a garbage-in-garbage-out kind of ordeal --- gotta make sure to your roomset is well curated. I used to make rooms for it a while back, but do to some circumstances I fell off the update train for several months and still haven't gotten my groove back.

Would be nice if there was any existing system of community curation, because even at a 1000+ rooms imported the game doesn't always succeed in generating a world after the built in 30 attempts, and by that point you got too many rooms to be reasonably expected to self curate.
 

lincolnic

can stop, will stop
(he/him)
So I'm interested in Subversion, but how much advanced tech do you need to know to play Super Metroid romhacks? Is it like SMW kaizo hacks where you're expected to know a bunch of stuff you never have to do in vanilla as a baseline, or can you get through it if you've only played vanilla Super Metroid?
 

RT-55J

space hero for hire
(He/Him + RT/artee)
Would be nice if there was any existing system of community curation, because even at a 1000+ rooms imported the game doesn't always succeed in generating a world after the built in 30 attempts, and by that point you got too many rooms to be reasonably expected to self curate.

Originally (a couple years back) there were plans for a main room pack curated by the lead dev (or something along those lines), but then a prominent room maker threw a huge fit and left after someone suggested that the name/author pop-up when entering a room should be optional.

Said room maker has cooled down since then, but the fallout of that incident led to the current system where everyone just posts their own map packs.

As far as the success rate of world generation is concerned, my understanding is that it depends more on the qualities of the rooms rather than the quantity of rooms. Large rooms with several exits and complex pathing requirements can be quite problematic for the generator. On the flipside, simple rooms like elevator rooms, dead-ends, and C-shaped connectors (in both directions) are absolutely necessary for successful seed generation.
 

RT-55J

space hero for hire
(He/Him + RT/artee)
So I'm interested in Subversion, but how much advanced tech do you need to know to play Super Metroid romhacks? Is it like SMW kaizo hacks where you're expected to know a bunch of stuff you never have to do in vanilla as a baseline, or can you get through it if you've only played vanilla Super Metroid?
Subversion is absolutely not a challenge hack. The only advanced techniques required are a horizontal shinespark and a cold temperature run (very lenient, disabled on easy mode). (Not even wall-jumps are needed.) In general, while it is slightly more difficult than vanilla, the hack tries to maintain a commercial level of polish in its design.

Kaizo-style SM hacks are few and far between and tend to be rather well-marked.The community has progressed a long, long way since the times when Redesign and Eris were regarded as the torchbearers for immersive, new SM planets.
 

Becksworth

Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
Mental note: map the fire button to an appropriate turbo setting on my Steamdeck, because going back to old school "mash the fire button to kill even common enemies" is doing a number on my aging thumb....
 

MCBanjoMike

Sudden chomper
(He/him)
Sounds like the opposite of a hell run in SM - you have to navigate an area that does environmental damage to you without the proper safety gear.
 

RT-55J

space hero for hire
(He/Him + RT/artee)
Yeah, it like a hell run, but the cold damage is much less severe than heat damage (and is disabled on easy mode).
 

Lokii

(He/Him)
Staff member
Moderator
Fusion's out this week on the Switch. What yall think about this game now days? I recall at the time it being maligned for, well the same critique that's lobbed at every Metroid, not being Super. Mainly people thought it was too scripted and too talky. I wonder if in a post-Echoes, post-Corruption, post-M, post-Returns, post-Dread world if feelings in general have changed. I def get the impression from gaming sites that this Switch release is the return of a classic. Maybe nostalgia is driving this, or perhaps 20 years later judgements have softened (or the gaming press is in the pocket of Big GBA). How do you all feel? What's the take on Fusion in 2023?
 
Last edited:

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
I've always liked Fusion a lot. No, it's not structured exactly like Super was, but you can go off the rails and explore way more than the popular conception of the game would have you believe. Really, my only complaint about it is that the intro is a bit overlong, but that's small potatoes.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
I don't have a 2023 take, but I have a June 2021 take, which probably still maintains. What I said at the time:

Played Metroid Fusion, which to me is the last good Metroid. It's interesting to return to as its reputation at large has never really settled into any common narrative; it was a contested game in its time and remains one now. My respect for it grows with time, in how excellent it is at balancing series pillars with a genuine spirit of reinvention--it's tough for anything to manage that interaction, or as well. All the common criticisms--too linear; too directed; too talky; too artificial of setting--are all things that in the moment and in context instead turn to strengths that better the game for the branch of design it was interested in exploring and experimenting with.

The writing especially comes over well as it doesn't threaten anyone's varying mental images of Samus--she remains stoically silent, withdrawn into her own thoughts, where the only verbosity of note occurs on her part; it's significant the few times she does respond to Adam's steady stream of instructions. Internally, she has moments of wry self-reflection of her past actions and how they're mirrored in her own current circumstances and the existence of the SA-X; Metroid II lingers heavily as the turning point in this character's life, as it should, and Fusion carries those thematics forward with care. The Samus/Adam dynamic especially comes off well here as the media convention is usually to pair up a snarky, "irreverent" button-pusher along with the silent emotional recluse to maintain audience interest and facilitate reciprocal interplay, but here Adam is entirely goal-oriented, flat of affect, and Samus has nothing to say herself in most situations; the push-and-pull between an ostensible odd couple simply doesn't exist as both are unequipped to cause or react to such sparring. It's a really refreshingly matter-of-fact way to present a story that's textually contained to just these two characters.

The best things this game does in shaping its world are the assumptions it allows you to form in the beginning and then gradually doing away with the given premise. Everything about the BSL station reeks of the kind of artificiality that the primarily cavernous and interconnected series would have trained its audience to mistrust as something fundamentally undesired: wreathed in metals and manufactured materials, arranged in closed-off "levels" entered through a hub. The impression created is that the sense of Metroid play is just as superficial in the environment's wake as those spaces themselves, constructed and simulated biomes as they are. From early on though, the key aspect of Fusion's exploratory paradigm makes itself known as it's never about following a dot on the map to the destination--it's being given an objective and seeing how the environment contorts itself unexpectedly to bar one's way, and the thrilling way going "out of bounds" in the station's nominal, default layout is made integral to progression, time and time again. The built instead of formed nature of the environment takes on a particular character in this context; the feeling of dipping into maintenance shafts and auxiliary tunnels to find one's way is distinct from charting what are presented as naturally formed topography in other series games, which often take on the tone of a primal struggle against the environment itself. With Fusion, the artificiality of the setting imbues the atmosphere with a directed malice toward your intrusion in it--it's not a place where life simply occurs and reacts to Samus as the unwanted interloper, but a nest of weaponized research and cold industry.

Focusing on a cat-and-mouse survival story of near misses and scrambling escapes in a compact environment also allows the game to go further with environmental iteration than any other game in the series. Most Metroids incorporate backtracking in some way, but the common structure usually involves relegating such exploits to the player's own discretion in seeking out in fullness of what the world might contain around its peripheries; the well-trod ground players are mandated to visit more than once are dominated by connecting passages and centers of traverse on the way to the real destinations, most of which are always new. Fusion, as a set of map data on cartridge, may be slighter than other games, but its play structure demands areas to be revisited often several times before the basic sequence of the scenario is over. In so doing it doesn't risk repetition in wearing the same locales thin because as a game it's also extremely invested in a sense of environmental dynamism facilitated exactly by these repeat incursions. Creatures that lurk in the station show signs of themselves through anticipatory glimpses or simply through the wreckage left in their wake; doors may be totally trashed and the ceilings and walls ripped through to create new environmental configurations in spaces thought previously understood. An early visit to a sub-section will present the player with insect larvae, which upon departing have progressed to pupae--later still, the imago stage is reached and the location transformed in the challenges it poses and how it should be navigated. The specific spatial choreographies of the plotting ensure that these detailed environmental processes aren't overlooked, as the shifting circumstances of the rapidly deteriorating habitat slot Samus into a reactive, crisis relief unit of one, whisked from one near disaster to the next all the while carrying all the risk herself.

It must be stressed that Fusion is a hard game in the context of its series and likely outside of it too. This is mostly achieved by tuning the damage values incurred by Samus significantly higher than other games have, to a degree that it can hardly be read as accidental or undeliberate. It's then to be read in the context of a hunter being hunted via her own means, subject to the same shivering terror she once inflicted on others; the play mechanics must reflect accordingly of the newfound frailty even in a form empowered. A career athlete is still one even after life-threatening and altering sickness, and even as contrivance mandates each Metroid present the Samus-building-herself-back-up narrative again and again, Fusion is the only one where not only storytelling minutiae rationalizes the act but lends it additional gravitas in recovery from bodily trauma and reshaping oneself into something close to before, but not quite, and maybe that's for the better in the end. The harshness of surviving in Fusion builds and supports the arc of Samus taking the first, tentative steps in her new life and existence, while being haunted and punished harshly along the way by the specters of her own past. Post-traumatic adaptation is literalized in the parts of herself she regains along the way--for the first time, organically and intrinsically as part of her--by facing past nemeses and turning those experiences into strength, and the player is right there with her, in the boss fights that chart as the hardest in the series, but also the most compellingly executed to that end, as they are built on the understanding and honing of the fundamentals of Samus's abilities and do not tarry in running through their own patterns in dictating the pace of the encounters. They are as madcap or strategic, cumbersome or elegant as anyone wants them to be, and none of it's accomplished through anything but confidence in the player's own internalization of the tools afforded to them; they are there for both them and Samus to take control.

The miracle of Metroid Fusion is that it's a game that in its time ushered in the return of a series that had previously hit its definitive high and then disappeared for a time that by objective reckoning was lengthy, but in the less tapped-in age decades past felt exponentially longer of an absence. When it did return, it did not lean on a sure formula, as the previous game had even then been canonized as a trailblazer. Instead, it made changes and took risks: the protagonist fundamentally altered visually and existentially; the game structure fashioned into a new modular script; series iconography like Ridley and the Chozo in the (mercifully) most reduced roles they would ever have. The reason why I increasingly value the game can be found in these characteristics that define it, as the last moment before the image of the series settled into a set of interchangeable aesthetics, design goals and repeated iconography for all time, sustained by a loop of still-notable absences and a resetting just-give-me-something-please return-to-form rhetoric. This was the time that Metroid went away and came back changed, and it might as well have been an evolutionary dead-end that it did so.

My distate for both Dread and the re-emergent Prime since have only reaffirmed the personal view that Fusion is where my interest in the series as works that I genuinely enjoy ends. It was the last one where the pendulum swung positively.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
(the boss fights) are built on the understanding and honing of the fundamentals of Samus's abilities and do not tarry in running through their own patterns in dictating the pace of the encounters.

Oh hey look, this is why I prefer Fusion to Dread in a nutshell lol

But yeah, basically what Peklo said, I pretty much agree with top to bottom.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
That part also applies to Prime, as I rediscovered in playing the remaster. It's a huge point of disambiguation between the earlier and later parts of the series, and I definitely have a preference.
 

Kazin

did i do all of that?
(he/him)
I'm sort of picking my way through the Prime remaster now (though I haven't played in a few days) and I'm suuuuuuuuuuuuuure not enjoying large chunks of the combat in the game, primarily for that reason, yeah. Last I played, I had just beaten Thardus, and I haven't really wanted to go back since lol
 
Last edited:

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
I love Fusion. I have not replayed it in a good while, so I don’t have a 2023 take. I do have it on 3DS though, so maybe that’ll be my next game. I’m just finishing up Mario Land 2 (damn Wario’s castle!)
 

Becksworth

Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
I believe I've mentioned its my ennui towards Zero Mission, so naturally Fusion is my preferred of the GBA pair due to it mixing things up more.
 

Adrenaline

Post Reader
(He/Him)
Fusion is good once you get past the talkiness. It's sure a lot of talking for a Metroid game, though.
 
Still not a fan of Fusion, but it's been at least 5 years since a playthrough so I'll see how it goes. My first experience felt like I was fighting against how the game wanted me to play. In subsequent playthroughs I've tried to just accept the game for what it is and go with the flow, but I guess I just don't like how Fusion is structured on a fundamental level.

Dread was similarly a slog to navigate through at certain points, but I think I was more okay with that since Samus Returns/Dread are more combat focused.
 

Octopus Prime

Jingle Engine
(He/Him)
I love all the Troids immensely.
Except the one I don't, and the one that didn't live up to its potential.
But otherwise, I love them all.
I like Dread more than Fusion, but, you know... just in the same sense that I like my right arm more than my left leg.
 

Vaeran

(GRUNTING)
(he/him)
Staff member
Moderator
I, too, never Met a Roid I didn't like.

If I have a complaint about Fusion it's that it doesn't do much to expand or differentiate Samus' moveset from Super Metroid, eight years prior. Yeah, her new ledge grab is cool, but that's about it.

FUSION: No Ice Beam this time! We're shifting the paradigm!
ME: wow that's unexpected and bold
FUSION: Instead, say hello to... ICE MISSILES!
ME: ...oh

I do appreciate the guileless directness of "Wide Beam," though. Shit's wide as hell!
 

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
I love the ice missiles. Like, she can't use the ice beam because of Metroid DNA, so she finds a way around it. The ledge grab and different weight to jumps were enough for me. Oh, and absorbing X-virus globs was nice, even though it was practically the same as the old energy spheres. There are just enough little tweaks to things.
 

MCBanjoMike

Sudden chomper
(He/him)
It's been a while since I the last time I played Fusion, but on my most recent replay I was extremely frustrated by the extent to which it discourages exploration. Weirdly, I quite like Dread, despite the fact that it also tends to funnel you forward - just less aggressively (or maybe I should say passive-aggressively, ADAM). The SA-X bits in Fusion were great the first time I played them, although on replays they don't have a ton to offer. Nightmare is still the creepiest boss in Metroid history, though.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
I replayed Fusion in 2021, first time since it was new, and liked it a lot. It's main crime seems to always have been, that it's not Super, and simply doesn't follow the Metroid formula, which simply didn't exist back then. Yeah, you had two games, but Super is basically a reimagining of the original NES game, similar to how LttP is a reimagining of the first Zelda, just with better hardware (well, not just, but I think in both cases, had the NES be as powerful as the SNES, you would have seen more of that back then, or something like that). The other one, Samus Returns, is very different. Exploration is toned down a lot, and while you can go back, it is more interested in sending you further into the planet. It also focuses way more on battles than the first game, giving you a ton of boss fights and all. Fusion discouraging exploration, by cutting you off earlier pathes, is fine in that context - it just did a different thing, instead of being a different version of Super. To be clear, it's perfectly fine to be disappointed that it wasn't like Super, but I still think that's the main reason why it was so disliked. In a time where simply 33% of the series wasn't a proper Metroid, due to not being about free exploration first and foremost.

Also not to forget, the game contains horror elements, which have been part of the first two games, but NOT of Super. Bringing these back was a good move, in my opinion, the game can be very atmospheric and moody, specifically also creepy and scary at times. I don't think you will find much of the latter in Super (that said, haven't played that in forever, but I feel like that was lost).

Point is, Fusion has things to offer that Super doesn't, and liking it or not is, of course, a matter of taste. But if Fusion offers you what you enjoy, you should have a lot of fun with it. Just don't expect Super Metroid 2, expect the game to be more guided, and you should have a good time.
 
Top