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Star Trek: Discovery - Disco isn't dead
- Thread starter SpoonyBard
- Start date
Apparently his species was seen just once before, in the DS9 episode Armageddon Game where they were one of the two that tried to kill Bashir and OBrien as part of some extreme measures to prevent genocidal weapons from being used again. Which tracks well enough I guess.
Mothra
(he/him)
Gonna put the good above the cut and the bad below. This show is so strange to me in how it is coherent and broadly entertaining but I feel absolutely positively nothing watching it.
Extremely well-acted as always though.
The good:
Extremely well-acted as always though.
The good:
- Loved the scenes with Saru and Michael together, walking through the woods and chatting. Disco has needed to give its characters space like this for a while, it was real refreshing getting two people just chatting at leisure.
- The smugger couple is fun, I'm enjoying them so far.
All the shots of their ship doing something, like the countermeasures or the in-atmo laser barrage, was cool as hell. The effects for that ship look great.
- Enjoyed Frank quite a bit, really cool seeing another Soong-type android, with the implications that synths continued to grow and become a unique species, with all the variety that comes with.
- The two ships blocking the sandstorm was a cool use of the shields in-atmosphere, love seeing a creative use of the tech.
- Jet Reno gets another laugh-out-loud line from me during the interviews.
- Still really love the "absolute candor" aspect of NuTrek, and Michael with not-Shaw in the debriefing room was great. One of my favorite Michael scenes in a while.
- The "Red Directive" paints an incredibly bleak picture of where the Federation has ended up. So you are telling me that in the Federation, in the Federation of the future, you will be expected to just do a mission "for the security of the Federation" where you are not told what your are doing or why, and are thus not equipped to make any kind of moral determination? And you get a license to kill and are indeed told not to worry about causalities, because the ends justify the means? You cannot have this black ops shit if you want us to believe the Federation is a just organization. Even the Omega Directive required the captain to know what the aspect of critical importance was, so they could make moral determinations.
Shaw 2 says that he's been on 7 different Red Directives during his career. These things apparently happen all the time, which is deranged.
- To the above, it seems super duper likely that Kovich is Section 31, and that Section 31 not only exists in the future, but exerts power at the highest level of the Federation. Even the President of the Federation is powerless to the whims of the space CIA, answerable to nobody.
Really hope I'm wrong about this but if I am, who is Kovich answerable to? Why do they have a guy like this? Why is it so hard for NuTrek to imagine a government or navy that isn't the 21st-century United States?
- Frank was a great new character, was interested in learning more about him. But, because he's a morally grey character due to him being involved in buying/selling smuggled goods, he is instantly executed so that cosmic justice can be delivered. Continues the NuTrek tradition, alongside Sneed and Shaw of killing off any promising new unique character you introduce if they are not unambiguously a good-coded heroic character.
- Continues to drive me insane how reckless our heroes are. Starfleet blasts in to a desert planet, and because it is not a Federation planet, they immediately get into a shooting chase (on speeder bikes) with two smugglers they want. This rapidly escalates as the smugglers beeline for the mountain, at which point the Federation does an orbital strike on an explosives cache in the mountain knowing that there is a 30% chance this kills every man, woman, and child in the city. The bad guys then follow Starfleet's example and try to blow up the mountain, causing the avalanche, and Starfleet scrambles to protect the city from the disaster they caused.
I know this is just action movie logic but man does it not gel with Star Trek as an idea. You have to imagine Starfleet as this like Bad Boys cartoon cowboy justice org that causes death and disaster wherever their latest military adventure takes them.
- I truly legit thought for a cold-blooded moment that Michael was about to elect her boyfriend as the XO of the ship. Holy hell was I relieved that it was Shaw 2 instead. I have this dire feeling that when Shaw 2 eats it later this season it's gonna be Booker that gets field-promoted from smuggler to XO of a Starfleet vessel within two years.
- The way they are collecting zelda keys that slot into a 3D-printed insignia makes me want to die. My prediction for this season is that they will get directions to a Progenitor Genesis device they used to originally seed the galaxy, and some guy will either intentionally or unintentionally try to activate it, destroying all life and/or remaking the galaxy in their image.
I know the showrunners said they didn't plan for this season to be the final one, but a "time travel through the greatest hits and meet yourself with a different hairstyle" episode is totally a final season kind of episode
Edit to add a mini gripe: I'm not sure if the reasoning of "you would sacrifice yourself to save the entire frickin' galaxy" is the most compelling way to convince someone you're from the future because that seems like the baseline for a Starfleet officer but maybe that's a thing they added to the command tests later. It's like "name eight starships" "Enterprise" "that's on me, I set the bar too low" meme levels
Edit to add a mini gripe: I'm not sure if the reasoning of "you would sacrifice yourself to save the entire frickin' galaxy" is the most compelling way to convince someone you're from the future because that seems like the baseline for a Starfleet officer but maybe that's a thing they added to the command tests later. It's like "name eight starships" "Enterprise" "that's on me, I set the bar too low" meme levels
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When you put it that way, sure. But I think the writers either weren’t that creative or just wrote themselves into a corner.
The easiest way of convincing someone you’re you is by telling them something they shouldn’t know, and couldn’t be easily looked up. Something very private. But that works 1-on-1, and it would be weird/bad to out someone’s deepest secrets in front of an audience.
I think that scene still kinda works though. It works if you consider her as a character with a reputation for never giving up/accepting defeat. Like Kirk. Problem of course, is that Airiam is a non-entity, so it’s not very convincing to us the audience when that’s not a pre-established fact.
I think that scene still kinda works though. It works if you consider her as a character with a reputation for never giving up/accepting defeat. Like Kirk. Problem of course, is that Airiam is a non-entity, so it’s not very convincing to us the audience when that’s not a pre-established fact.
Yeah, for sure. The scene on the bridge worked fine for me overall. The instance that *did* pull me out for a moment is wondering why one earth she didn't tell herself something secret/private in order to avoid both a fistfight and a later confrontation that nearly scuppered the whole plan. But I guess a one-on-one with your past self is too fun a set-piece to leave on the floor. And I suppppppose you could handwave that past Burnham, being at probably the most distrustful point of her life, would just assume that the probable shape-shifter she was confronting was also reading her thoughts or something.
This week's episode of Disco leveraged some pre-exiting sets in fun ways and had a lot of important lore moments. I'm gonna miss this show when it's gone.
Mothra
(he/him)
This one was pretty solid! Reminds of how fun it was having Booke and Michael's Star Wars adventures in early S3 before the Disco showed up.
The good:
The good:
- Still enjoying Moll and L’ak’s actors quite a bit.
- Fun seeing the new look for the Breen.
- That shot of the Enterprise pulling out of the stellar bunghole looked awesome.
- Caulder and Tilly’s conversation in the bar was very good, I wanted more of that.
- Goddd the Breen flashbacks. So like, they have a fluid jelly face and then a regular solid Star Trek alien face, and the civil war they’re in is over whether or not they should go into their second form? Why does that matter? Hard to feel any real way about this, it's like the white-black TOS aliens or something.
- Lordy I wish the Breen didn't look exactly the same as the Emerald Chain, and every other bad guy they’ve encountered in the future.
- Desperately trying to care about the subplot about Brooke’s mentor. I think we need to meet this character or see some flashbacks to get some kind of meaningful investment here.
- Devastated seeing Moll and L’ak ship blow up, that thing was cool.
- It is so incredibly strange that they shoehorned in the mirror-universe Enterprise here. I get that they wanted to nod to SWN and use the sets but like, why did this happen?
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This week on DISCO...
Honestly wasn't feeling this one. The whole 'try to blend in with a pre-warp civilization in order to do secret Starfleet stuff' is an episode archetype as old as the franchise itself. But this one felt really forced, and to make matters worse Michael pretty much immediately throws the Prime Directive out the window when Tilly's life is in danger and reveals everything, which is also a shame since things go sideways in these stories all the time but part of what makes them interesting is seeing how the crew finds ways to solve the problem within the boundaries of not revealing themselves. I feel like there's not even going to be a follow up slap on the wrist to this because of the 'Red Directive' nonsense.
Honestly wasn't feeling this one. The whole 'try to blend in with a pre-warp civilization in order to do secret Starfleet stuff' is an episode archetype as old as the franchise itself. But this one felt really forced, and to make matters worse Michael pretty much immediately throws the Prime Directive out the window when Tilly's life is in danger and reveals everything, which is also a shame since things go sideways in these stories all the time but part of what makes them interesting is seeing how the crew finds ways to solve the problem within the boundaries of not revealing themselves. I feel like there's not even going to be a follow up slap on the wrist to this because of the 'Red Directive' nonsense.
Mothra
(he/him)
Loved the visuals of the planet from orbit, really distinct. All the tower stuff also looked great.
Maybe the weakest ep this season... I think I liked it better than the last one, but, that was mainly for the A+ Tillyisms. I was fascinated by how tame the main dramatic event of the episode - the race - was. Sort of a breezy trot through the woods without any peril.
Disco has always had a pretty negative view of the Prime Directive, so Michael tends to discard it quickly, like here. I think there's definitely a lot be explored in the morality of it but Disco doesn't really tend to do that, they just follow it up until it becomes inconvenient, then they ditch it. I feel like this is the forth time they have revealed to a pre-warp society that aliens exist and are fantastical peers that offer them choices and options that will fit neatly into Federation ideals.
Maybe the weakest ep this season... I think I liked it better than the last one, but, that was mainly for the A+ Tillyisms. I was fascinated by how tame the main dramatic event of the episode - the race - was. Sort of a breezy trot through the woods without any peril.
Disco has always had a pretty negative view of the Prime Directive, so Michael tends to discard it quickly, like here. I think there's definitely a lot be explored in the morality of it but Disco doesn't really tend to do that, they just follow it up until it becomes inconvenient, then they ditch it. I feel like this is the forth time they have revealed to a pre-warp society that aliens exist and are fantastical peers that offer them choices and options that will fit neatly into Federation ideals.
Mothra
(he/him)
Erigah is another ep that is 1/10 of a meandering straight-to-DVD Stargate SG-1 movie, here to move the season arc forward another 55 minutes. On its own, it has no dramatic weight, no story to speak of, and most egregiously, nothing that sticks with you once it’s over.
Moll and L’ak as a romance is still kind of working for me. It’s making me realize that whenever Michael and the Discovery crew are not the focus, I’m interested again, and what I’m actually enjoying is the original premise of this show: A Star Trek anthology series with new characters, new locations, new dynamics each episode or season.
Imagine if last season was a Federation ambassador vessel trying to reach and talk to Species 10C, all diplomats and shit. I would’ve eaten that up. Imagine if this season was just Moll and La’k as treasure-hunting scavs trying to get the big score so they can retire to a beach.
The cast and crew of Discovery seem completely superfluous, just happy to be here for this adventure or that, none of it connected, just thwarting end-of-the-galaxy threat after end-of-the-galaxy threat to maintain the status quo.
Moll and L’ak as a romance is still kind of working for me. It’s making me realize that whenever Michael and the Discovery crew are not the focus, I’m interested again, and what I’m actually enjoying is the original premise of this show: A Star Trek anthology series with new characters, new locations, new dynamics each episode or season.
Imagine if last season was a Federation ambassador vessel trying to reach and talk to Species 10C, all diplomats and shit. I would’ve eaten that up. Imagine if this season was just Moll and La’k as treasure-hunting scavs trying to get the big score so they can retire to a beach.
The cast and crew of Discovery seem completely superfluous, just happy to be here for this adventure or that, none of it connected, just thwarting end-of-the-galaxy threat after end-of-the-galaxy threat to maintain the status quo.
- Very good T'Rina ep, I loved her in this. Wouldn't have minded the entire story being her's here.
- It is incredibly, unintentionally funny how Booke has absolutely no reason to be here in this season and the show insists on calling attention to this every episode, to the level of having each character say “You have to accept that you don’t have anything to do right now”, having characters struggle to think of a useful task for him, etc etc. It’s my favorite thing this season right now.
- Impossible challenge to give a flying fuck about the Breen now that they’ve been revealed to be exactly the same as the Discovery Klingons. This mysterious race has now been shown to be a warrior race of different houses that has fractured without a single leader, and needs another monarch to unify them again.
- Na’an returning for this episode was some stellar comedy as she does nothing but bungle the security of the entire Federation over and over and over for 55 minutes straight. Stellar stuff.
- Lighting and sets are looking a lot better than they did in season 1. It’s amazing how SNW got something so basic so right, right out the gate.
- Love seeing more Jet Reno, but, being told how cool Jet Reno is is way less entertaining and effective than seeing how cool Jet Reno is. They need to stop trying to impress us and just let her do shit. You have an amazing character, give her something with even a little dramatic weight. Put her on an entire mission! Give her a few episodes!
- Gray’s one and only thing continues to be “they have Impostor Syndrome, they need to learn confidence” and their story in every. Single. Episode is about this. Please god show us something else about this, anything.
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I'm still enjoying Disco like I always have been, but I do feel like the secondary characters are getting a bit short shrift this season. Yeah, it's never been the ensemble show that many other Treks are, but I feel like in the mid-seasons we got tons of good character development and arcs for characters like Tilly, Stamets, Culber, Adira, and so on. This season it feels like the writers just occasionally remember "oh yeah, we have other characters" and one or two of them get like five minutes of screen time which mostly rehash previous character beats.
That aside, though, I'm digging Moll and L'ak, and all the nods and additions to Trek lore going on, and even though the overall plot is a widget hunt, most of the destinations along the path are a lot of fun.
That aside, though, I'm digging Moll and L'ak, and all the nods and additions to Trek lore going on, and even though the overall plot is a widget hunt, most of the destinations along the path are a lot of fun.
Mothra
(he/him)
Discovery's sorta turned into Johnny Quest, and while that's not great, I'm a firm believer that one should always take the work on what it's aiming to achieve, and it's definitely interested in making this be a Star Warsy adventure in the vein of like, National Treasure.
I'm never gonna get used to everyone running around talking about getting "the clue" and saying clue constantly like they're on a scavenger hunt set up by their mom. The Breen captain guy demanding everyone turn over "all your clues" is just a very very funny piece of dialogue to have to take seriously.
Anyways before I get into my various thoughts/gripes I wanted to note that I love that they're still using the weird little fire-puff shooters on the bridge, especially when they fire several times during an action sequence, because it super duper draws attention to them and you can't help but wonder why they have tubes that vent fire onto the bridge itself:
I'm never gonna get used to everyone running around talking about getting "the clue" and saying clue constantly like they're on a scavenger hunt set up by their mom. The Breen captain guy demanding everyone turn over "all your clues" is just a very very funny piece of dialogue to have to take seriously.
Anyways before I get into my various thoughts/gripes I wanted to note that I love that they're still using the weird little fire-puff shooters on the bridge, especially when they fire several times during an action sequence, because it super duper draws attention to them and you can't help but wonder why they have tubes that vent fire onto the bridge itself:
* I think this may be the most cartoonish villain Star Trek has ever seen. He is the mentor of La'k, and respected him enough to raise him to be the next Primarch, but then when La'k wanted to date a human he marked him for death, sent the entire Breen armada after him, and once he successfully killed him, he now wants to BE the Primarch, and resists attempts to resurrect L'ak. Shouldn't he more than anyone want La'k back? Because he respected him so much? Or is he just evil and wants power? And if that's true, why did he train the secret prince this entire time? Anyways he's so comically evil that he burns every bridge he has in 50 minutes and then is mutinied against, putting a human in control of the Breen, which everyone is okay with so maybe it was him him specifically that had a problem with humans???
* Them making Stamets hold up the 3D-printed logo of Betazed and emphatically say "THIS is the logo of Betazed. THIS CLUE is the most important thing in the Federation right now. THIS will lead us to the next hint." and hold this up for like a full minute is an absolutely deranged use of time.
* In this episode, the bridge crew needed to very precisely navigate "the biggest ion storm in the quadrant", probably the biggest "fly the ship good" moment in the show, aside for that bit last season where they went through the galactic barrier bubbles. There is no possible story reason as to why Dettmer isn't here doing this, so I have to guess the actor had to leave the show for some reason. It just doesn't make any sense otherwise that their pilot character isn't here.
* The Eternal Gallery is "protected" by being inside of an incredibly dangerous ion storm that very nearly destroys the Discovery. I have to ask: Who actually survives this harrowing journey into the cloud? Do only the strongest battleships and the best pilots make it? Is that who their target audience is for this ancient book archive?
Absolutely obsessed with how the Archive is fully nothing but paper books and being impossible to get to. Anyone that survives the journey can touch the books, flip through them, take stuff out of them, etc, constantly damaging them. The archivists don't digitize the books and share them with the galaxy or anything, they just, hoard them in a museum at the center of a fire tornado.
* THE FIRST-EDITION BOOK HAD A BIG METAL TOUCHPAD IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BOOK THAT IF YOU TOUCH IT YOU GO INTO A MIND PALACE AND CLEARLY NOBODY EVER TOOK OUT OR INVESTIGATED OR TOUCHED IT OR ANYTHING DID NOBODY EVER READ THIS BOOK EVEN ONE TIME
* Some A+ stuff from David Ajala in the scene with the root. I didn't like that plot thread but he made me feel something, that's what I'm here for.
* That world root is 1000% going to be what they end up using the Progenitor tech for. My prediction: Moll misunderstood the Progenitor tech, cannot resurrect La'k, and in her sorrow threatens to destroy the universe, but Booke convinces her not to, and they end up creating a new Quajon using the world root.
* The Breen "tracked a Starfleet jump signature to this location." That's a thing people can do?? They can track spore jumps and go there???
* Them making Stamets hold up the 3D-printed logo of Betazed and emphatically say "THIS is the logo of Betazed. THIS CLUE is the most important thing in the Federation right now. THIS will lead us to the next hint." and hold this up for like a full minute is an absolutely deranged use of time.
* In this episode, the bridge crew needed to very precisely navigate "the biggest ion storm in the quadrant", probably the biggest "fly the ship good" moment in the show, aside for that bit last season where they went through the galactic barrier bubbles. There is no possible story reason as to why Dettmer isn't here doing this, so I have to guess the actor had to leave the show for some reason. It just doesn't make any sense otherwise that their pilot character isn't here.
* The Eternal Gallery is "protected" by being inside of an incredibly dangerous ion storm that very nearly destroys the Discovery. I have to ask: Who actually survives this harrowing journey into the cloud? Do only the strongest battleships and the best pilots make it? Is that who their target audience is for this ancient book archive?
Absolutely obsessed with how the Archive is fully nothing but paper books and being impossible to get to. Anyone that survives the journey can touch the books, flip through them, take stuff out of them, etc, constantly damaging them. The archivists don't digitize the books and share them with the galaxy or anything, they just, hoard them in a museum at the center of a fire tornado.
* THE FIRST-EDITION BOOK HAD A BIG METAL TOUCHPAD IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BOOK THAT IF YOU TOUCH IT YOU GO INTO A MIND PALACE AND CLEARLY NOBODY EVER TOOK OUT OR INVESTIGATED OR TOUCHED IT OR ANYTHING DID NOBODY EVER READ THIS BOOK EVEN ONE TIME
* Some A+ stuff from David Ajala in the scene with the root. I didn't like that plot thread but he made me feel something, that's what I'm here for.
* That world root is 1000% going to be what they end up using the Progenitor tech for. My prediction: Moll misunderstood the Progenitor tech, cannot resurrect La'k, and in her sorrow threatens to destroy the universe, but Booke convinces her not to, and they end up creating a new Quajon using the world root.
* The Breen "tracked a Starfleet jump signature to this location." That's a thing people can do?? They can track spore jumps and go there???
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Mothra
(he/him)
Langrange Point had some fun bits, I liked the in-the-helmet cam, the hanger bay thing with Discovery itself was pretty fun, the dual-black-hole sequence was cool, Raynor got some good scenes, Breen getting sucked into the artifact constant was funny.
Again, feels like 1/10th of a DVD tv movie, here to move the season arc forward another 55 minutes. This ep wasn't about anything, but it did get us closer to some payoffs next week.
The FX shot of Disco literally dropping out of a jump, out of an explosion, covered in fire and damage, was real good.
Again, feels like 1/10th of a DVD tv movie, here to move the season arc forward another 55 minutes. This ep wasn't about anything, but it did get us closer to some payoffs next week.
The FX shot of Disco literally dropping out of a jump, out of an explosion, covered in fire and damage, was real good.
One more episode to the finale
I think a lot of your criticisms are fine/valid Mothra, but I'm still enjoying the show. A lot of the things you criticize the show over are things the show very clearly has no interest in doing. So for me it just feels weird to demerit a show for not being a thing it never wanted to be to begin with. There are however, more than a few things that fall flat for me this season - chiefly in the characters department. Several supporting characters just seemingly written-off, off-screen. Characters that the show does choose to focus on not getting much - if any decent development. The primary antagonists are more suggestions of characters than actual characters.
All that said though, the pacing and the adventure this season have been pretty successful. Just the literal mystery box has been supremely uninteresting in and of itself though. Like a lot of Disco's seasons, they took ideas that would have been a great 1 or 2 part episode, and stretched the idea a little too thin to cover the whole season. There's still time for the ending to pull everything together, but as of right now this might be my least favorite season of the show lol. That's not necessarily bad - just not quite the send-off I was hoping for.
I think a lot of your criticisms are fine/valid Mothra, but I'm still enjoying the show. A lot of the things you criticize the show over are things the show very clearly has no interest in doing. So for me it just feels weird to demerit a show for not being a thing it never wanted to be to begin with. There are however, more than a few things that fall flat for me this season - chiefly in the characters department. Several supporting characters just seemingly written-off, off-screen. Characters that the show does choose to focus on not getting much - if any decent development. The primary antagonists are more suggestions of characters than actual characters.
All that said though, the pacing and the adventure this season have been pretty successful. Just the literal mystery box has been supremely uninteresting in and of itself though. Like a lot of Disco's seasons, they took ideas that would have been a great 1 or 2 part episode, and stretched the idea a little too thin to cover the whole season. There's still time for the ending to pull everything together, but as of right now this might be my least favorite season of the show lol. That's not necessarily bad - just not quite the send-off I was hoping for.
Mothra
(he/him)
What would be the main areas where Disco excels, in your opinion? Definitely is possible I'm just coming at this show from the wrong angle.
I kinda approach Disco like a Marvel movie, you know? It's a show that has really good production values, awe-inspiring set-pieces, and is generally pretty fun. If you wanted to start nitpicking it on source material accuracy, or things like plot holes, or are expecting prestige-TV-tier writing, you're gonna have a bad time, but most people don't go to Marvel movies for that - and they probably shouldn't for Disco either.
It's also a show that is very obviously only interested in telling a very limited POV. It's again, very much like Marvel stuff where we really only dig into one or two characters at a time, and the supporting cast are kinda just there to further the plot/character development of the MCs. If you are beholden to the idea that Star Trek MUST be an ensemble show, then ya - you're gonna have a bad time. But generally when they do focus on a character and actually develop them, it's usually pretty good stuff.
There's also a lot of standout/excellent acting performances, even if the writing isn't always up to par. Doug Jones, Sonequa Martin-Green, Anthony Rapp, Wilson Cruz, David Ajala, the assorted guest-Captains of the season, all give baseline good performances and frequently act their friggin' brains out.
Some people lament that the characters in Disco are a little too emotional, but honestly I find it refreshing. The insistence on stoicism in Berman-Era Star Trek is borderline toxic and is mostly informed by outdated toxic-masculinity, and it's also not really true to the original series/Gene's worldview either. Learning to experience, live, express, and thrive with the broad spectrum of human emotions has low-key been a delightful aspect of Discovery, even if a handful of times it doesn't quite do enough legwork to make its emotional moments fully resonate with its audience.
There's a lot of fun easter eggs hidden all over the show that are fun to pick out and spot. Occasionally the show can feel like it's going, "remember this!? woahhh!!" but most of the time when I spot things, they're pretty lowkey and true easter eggs that are only there for overly informed diehards to pick up on. And they're usually pretty respectful to canon most of the time.
I don't think your POV is wrong, or that you're watching it wrong. Life is short, and it's ok to have standards for how to spend your time. And like I already said, most of your criticisms are earned and things I noticed too. I just tend to focus on the good things more than the bad, more or less, and accept it isn't a perfect show. I've still had a lot of fun with it over the years regardless and can enjoy something despite its flaws.
I'll also be forever grateful to Discovery for resurrecting the franchise. Star Trek is probably my single favorite thing ever, and before Discovery I had basically resigned myself to it being a dead franchise/something of the past - like I have with other things I love like Konami or a lot of my family at this point. And it's made me feel like a kid again, to have new Star Trek to look forward to watching every week.
Also edibles. Discovery is a great watch on edibles lol.
If I'm being honest, this was probably the weakest season of the show. But it had some pretty good moments along the way, and I genuinely enjoyed the final episode a lot. It's no All Good Things, but of the 8 discrete Star Trek shows that have had series finales, I'd say it solidly ranks 4th among those.
TNG = PIC > VOY > DIS > DS9 > ENT > TAS > TOS If you want to count The Undiscovered Country as the TOS series finale, then that goes to the front
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Mothra
(he/him)
Yeah, I just need something to make the action have weight. I'm reminded of Falcon and the Winter Soldier, where I liked a few scenes from it, I liked several ideas from it, but it becomes a big ol' mess as it moves forward, exactly like Discovery does.
Life, Itself was definitely the classic Disco experience, it is a fitting way to close out. Tons of fight scenes, not really much reason or punch behind them, but always well-choreographed and shot. Entertaining enough, then it ends with no change to the galactic status quo and all antagonists offed.
There is something that causes shows to continue being made like this, stuff like Picard and Secret Invasion and what have you, and I am incredibly curious what specifically happens. Studio meddling? Rushed scheduling? Bold ideas being sanded dull for mass-market appeal? Do the writer's not interact with each other for some reason, is there no outline for the season, are these things not done? It feels like these are written in a vacuum, then some references are later sprinkled around later in the game. It's just such strange thing that continues to produce content for the sake of content. It must simply be cheaper, and story must not matter, from a cost-saving perspective, that's all the makes sense.
Anyways:
Life, Itself was definitely the classic Disco experience, it is a fitting way to close out. Tons of fight scenes, not really much reason or punch behind them, but always well-choreographed and shot. Entertaining enough, then it ends with no change to the galactic status quo and all antagonists offed.
There is something that causes shows to continue being made like this, stuff like Picard and Secret Invasion and what have you, and I am incredibly curious what specifically happens. Studio meddling? Rushed scheduling? Bold ideas being sanded dull for mass-market appeal? Do the writer's not interact with each other for some reason, is there no outline for the season, are these things not done? It feels like these are written in a vacuum, then some references are later sprinkled around later in the game. It's just such strange thing that continues to produce content for the sake of content. It must simply be cheaper, and story must not matter, from a cost-saving perspective, that's all the makes sense.
Anyways:
Looking back on the past 5 seasons, Discovery is not really about the stories specifically - what storytelling there is, is a little bit like improv, where it starts with an idea, then each writer takes that premise in a different direction, and it never really coheres or builds towards anything. Ideas are introduced within an episode, explored briefly in that episode, and then left as a dangling thread, never to be tied up. To Wisteria's point, this actually makes Star Trek's tendency towards canon an ill fit for what this show is trying to do, it's more in the spirit of something like Sliders or Quantum Leap, an adventure action series where there's very little continuity between episodes. If Discovery was some kind of multiverse-jumping premise it might've fit its intent more.
There is no single episode of Star Trek Discovery that I can recommend to people, because it doesn't work like that - every episode of Discovery is one part of a season-long improv sesh. I think the closest I can get is season 1's Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad, a solid time loop story that was as close to a contained story as the show ever got.
That said, as Wisteria noted, this is the show that brought Star Trek back, and because enough people watched it, we got Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, which is huge. It's also just very good seeing the majority of scenes being all women or queer characters, it is new and different for Trek and Trek needs genuinely new shit in it. I also have to hand it to Discovery for never going back to the Romulan or Borg well, and largely creating newish stuff. This is a low bar the other Treks can't really clear, SNW and LD included.
Ultimately, I'll remember this show for the cool spore network idea and Doug Jones' Saru, one of the most Star Trek characters the franchise has ever made. Everything else is fading from my memory as I write these words.
There is no single episode of Star Trek Discovery that I can recommend to people, because it doesn't work like that - every episode of Discovery is one part of a season-long improv sesh. I think the closest I can get is season 1's Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad, a solid time loop story that was as close to a contained story as the show ever got.
That said, as Wisteria noted, this is the show that brought Star Trek back, and because enough people watched it, we got Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, which is huge. It's also just very good seeing the majority of scenes being all women or queer characters, it is new and different for Trek and Trek needs genuinely new shit in it. I also have to hand it to Discovery for never going back to the Romulan or Borg well, and largely creating newish stuff. This is a low bar the other Treks can't really clear, SNW and LD included.
Ultimately, I'll remember this show for the cool spore network idea and Doug Jones' Saru, one of the most Star Trek characters the franchise has ever made. Everything else is fading from my memory as I write these words.
- The interior of the Mystery Box was pretty cool, definitely felt like a legit alien realm.
- Fully jokerfied by the way the camera does not stop shaking for this entire episode, even in scenes of just regular dialogue between two characters.
- Obsessed with the one surviving breen in here, who gets in a big Star Trek fight with Michael, gets sucked into the void, RETURNS, continues to battle her - so dedicated is this man - and is immediately gunned down by Moll (???) despite the fact that he was utterly loyal to her and would've helped her fight Michael. Why did she kill him? Because he's an alien? Not explained.
To summarize, Moll ordered this guy to go into the mystery box, which he did without question, then she followed him in, watching him valiantly battle her enemy, then shot him to death before he could finished her off.
- Thoroughly enjoyed the insane volcano fistfight between Moll and Michael, halfway through which Moll stops to talk and Michael RE-STARTS THE FIGHT BY PUNCHING MOLL:
- Thought briefly about that device Stamets gave to Booke that makes shuttles' shields better and wondered why all shuttles don't have those but aw fuck it
- I cannot believe how much runtime is devoted to Moll and Michael pointlessly fist-fighting, then stopping, then re-starting the fight.
- When the Discovery does that Riker thing from Insurrection where they ignite a random cloud of plasma that is floating unaffected next to these dual black holes there is this kickass BLAST of fire from one of the bridge fire jets which everyone on the bridge DODGES before it hard cuts back inside the mystery box.
- Loved the Dungeons & Dragons dungeon puzzle the Progenitors set up here:
- It's a bit strange how the original assumption about the Progenitors was that their technology could seed the galaxy, because that's all that's known about them, but then for the whole season they speak about the tech as this mysterious thing that could do anything. When they do get a straight answer here, the Progenitor hologram says that it does indeed do what they would expect it to: It clones things. Not super clear on how this led to the Federation's destruction in that other timeline aw fuck its
- Man... pretty fucked how they doomed all the La'k loyalists on the dreadnought to a timetime trying to return home, Voyager-style, especially after they rose up to overthrow the tyrannical bad guy breen a few eps back. I dunno I guess you're not supposed to sympathize with any breen but La'k.
- Kovich owning Sisko's baseball and La Forge's visor are the kind of memerberries that Discovery thinks the audience wants, but in-universe is like, so this time traveller jagoff from Enterprise's worst Burman storyline went back in time and stole important, meaningful items from these people, because he wanted to collect them like funko pops? Should Sisko's baseball be with like, Jake, or Jake's descendents? Or Kira or Sisko?
- Okay I see that they wanted to wrap up Calypso (which actually, now that I'm thinking about it, was the best thing from Discovery) for the demanding fans, but in-universe, this establishes that Zora has been alone on an abandoned Discovery for like 30-40 years, and when Michael visits her, it's because she got another do-not-ask-any-questions Red Directive order to have Zora fly out to an empty region of space and SIT THERE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS ALONE which is, as we saw in Calypo, a horrible fate that makes you grieve with her. Her mission is stated to wait for Craft, but in Calypso, he arrives and offers to stay with her, but she says she can't, because she has to stay there for her mission, so like, that wasn't her mission then? Why make Zora suffer so horribly for this? It feels like they just wanted to have the things logistically occur that would need to occur for Claypso to happen, without thinking about how fucked-up an action this would be for Michael to doom Zora to, for reasons she never questions.
Also why didn't Daniels just time travel Zora/Disco there if all that was neede was for Craft to be rescued? aw fuck it
As much as I like Michael, I think the show would have been better off being the Saru-show. At least in terms of letting the most interesting person/best acting on the show be the main focus. I think... that's probably the true folly of having Discovery be the Michael Burnham show. I like the character and the actress, but it's kind of distracting when the best actor isn't the main character. Also, Michael isn't the most interesting character in the world either. She's kinda bland like Kirk. Kirk works because he was always put into interesting situations to see him react to. But there just isn't much to work with as an inherently interesting character. There's a reason why shows like TNG leaned heavily on telling Data-stories, or DS9 told a lot of Kira-stories, or VOY told a lot of Doctor or Seven stories. Because the premise of those characters are genuinely interesting and fertile ground for the writers to explore a lot of great ideas that a kinda bland-Captain doesn't get to.
I'm gonna use some of your observations to discuss a few things I thought was interesting or noticed during the course of the last episode if ya don't mind. I think I actually agreed with a lot of what you thought about the episode, btw:
The shaky cam really killed me in the first half of the episode. Which seemed like a very intentional director's direction. To have the space battles give a visual sense of the chaos that was happening? Because later in the episode when they wanted to portray calmness, the camera was ultra still. I still hate shaky cam though. I find it annoying. I don't need the immersion it is trying to create. I would rather have perfect observation.
I read that as she has no loyalty to them, and further actually hates them for what they did to her husband, and still sees them as a threat.
If I had to guess, the implication is that the space magic would have let one Breen faction gain dominance over the rest, and then the unified Breen just laying waste with superior fire power.
I know it was member-berries, but I didn't really mind. In fact, I kinda liked what it implied about Daniels -- that some of his time-adventures led him into direct contact with those other characters. I kinda liked the Temporal Cold War :\
Because time travel at that point in the timeline is hyper-illegal.
Boy this finale really was a microcosm of Discovery as a whole, huh? Messy, earnest, wearing its heart on its sleeve, a little too indulgent in some of its worst impulses, definitely interesting in places, but as a whole left me just feeling '... huh.'
Moll just straight up killing the Breen soldier had me really confused, for all the reasons Mothra pointed out. Like, even if she still saw the Breen as adversaries, she ALSO saw the Federation as adversaries so why on earth did she kill one of her own soldiers to spare Michael's life? I know it's because that's where the episode would end but it still feels kind of hackneyed. We weren't given a reason why she trusted Michael more than that one, shockingly loyal, Breen in that moment besides the fact it's what the episode needed to happen.
Michael just kind of cheapshots her while they're in the middle of talking and later is like 'you have to trust me' and Moll does. Moll is just all over the place.
And as one final bit of 'what', Moll gets knocked out, Michael goes into the creation thingy, we learn that even the Progenitors didn't even create it themselves but found it from some OTHER super race that came before them (which just gave me WoW: Shadowlands flashbacks with how dumb and unnecessary that last minute reveal was), she learns that she can't revive L'ak with it and Moll just... kind of accepts it.
"Hey so you hate my guts, have no reason to trust me, and weren't privy to this conversation, but I was TOTALLY told that the magic doohicky can't bring your boyfriend back to life, even though I have no way to prove that's the case, you just have to believe me on that."
"Oh ok."
It's like the writers realized that the character of Moll as she was going into the finale would not let them get to the conclusion they needed so she just starts acting hilariously out of character for most of the episode.
That was the only part of the episode that actually bugged me. The big dumb space battle was fine, their solution to use the spore drive to teleport the Breen ship away felt a bit like an asspull but it was entertaining and I don't mind it.
Does anyone know why Detmer was totally absent from, like, the entire back half of the season? I was starting to wonder if the actress just up and left or something but she still appeared in the big final reminiscing scene, so her absence was really really weird. The show never did figure out how to handle the crew outside of Michael, Saru, Tilly, Culber, and Stamets, did it?
Speaking of the big final reminiscing scene, I'm still not sure how to think of the final part of the episode. The flash forward was interesting, no complaints there, but it really felt like they were straining to make the old Short Trek, which aired before Season 2 don't forget, make sense. It's not that it doesn't make sense for Daniels not to make sure it happens, but I'm kind of surprised they thought this was the note to end the series on. Not a bad decision, necessarily, but a weird one.
Michael just kind of cheapshots her while they're in the middle of talking and later is like 'you have to trust me' and Moll does. Moll is just all over the place.
And as one final bit of 'what', Moll gets knocked out, Michael goes into the creation thingy, we learn that even the Progenitors didn't even create it themselves but found it from some OTHER super race that came before them (which just gave me WoW: Shadowlands flashbacks with how dumb and unnecessary that last minute reveal was), she learns that she can't revive L'ak with it and Moll just... kind of accepts it.
"Hey so you hate my guts, have no reason to trust me, and weren't privy to this conversation, but I was TOTALLY told that the magic doohicky can't bring your boyfriend back to life, even though I have no way to prove that's the case, you just have to believe me on that."
"Oh ok."
It's like the writers realized that the character of Moll as she was going into the finale would not let them get to the conclusion they needed so she just starts acting hilariously out of character for most of the episode.
That was the only part of the episode that actually bugged me. The big dumb space battle was fine, their solution to use the spore drive to teleport the Breen ship away felt a bit like an asspull but it was entertaining and I don't mind it.
Does anyone know why Detmer was totally absent from, like, the entire back half of the season? I was starting to wonder if the actress just up and left or something but she still appeared in the big final reminiscing scene, so her absence was really really weird. The show never did figure out how to handle the crew outside of Michael, Saru, Tilly, Culber, and Stamets, did it?
Speaking of the big final reminiscing scene, I'm still not sure how to think of the final part of the episode. The flash forward was interesting, no complaints there, but it really felt like they were straining to make the old Short Trek, which aired before Season 2 don't forget, make sense. It's not that it doesn't make sense for Daniels not to make sure it happens, but I'm kind of surprised they thought this was the note to end the series on. Not a bad decision, necessarily, but a weird one.
The actresses for both Owosekun and Detmer had scheduling conflicts that prevented them from being in the show this season. Same for Doug Jones, he was promoting Focus Pocus 2 for a time, which is why he was out for a big chunk. You have to remember that they didn't know this was going to be the final season until they had almost finished filming everything. I think people would've rearranged their schedules (and the writers would've done something else) if they had known.
The showrunner Michelle Paradise said that her plans for a season six would have beentying into Calypso as the arc, as opposed to the abrupt coda version that we got.
But yeah, Discovery, ended as it lived. Like SpoonyBard said, earnest, messy, well-intentioned. I'll miss it. (My husband won't, he prefers earlier Disco). But it walked so other shows could run. How did Strange New World nail its look in it's first season? Because the real first season of SNW was actually Disco S2, and they got to try out a look for the Enterprise! And decide to improve it!
I'm hopeful for the 32nd century shenanigans continuing in Starfleet Academy, but with some fresh blood in the writers room, especially Tawny Newsome.
The showrunner Michelle Paradise said that her plans for a season six would have beentying into Calypso as the arc, as opposed to the abrupt coda version that we got.
Which... I dunno, Calypso feels like "a road not taken". Chabon wrote one potential avenue for Discovery to get to the future, but then by the end of season 2, they went in a different direction. From that point on, trying to line it up again (to the point of removing the 32nd century upgrade refit parts!) just feels kind of forced and weird. So to line Calypso up with the ending now, Craft is from the 42nd century and the V'Draysh has become a pidgin term for the Federation AGAIN? I can appreciate trying to tie up loose ends, but is it worth it when you have to tie yourself into a knot to do it?
The rest of the (fast forward to the future) finale was fine! Would've liked to have seen more of everyone else than just the hug scene, but they had limited time to pull it together.
It sucks that the show was cancelled here, TBH. Like, thematically it's been an okay final season, but character wise it feels like this season was a bridge between other arcs, because everyone's spinning their wheels the entire time. Ending on season four might've been preferable than not getting season six, as much as I do enjoy seeing everyone do their thing.
Been pretty ambivalent on Moll and L'ak the entire time, but I think I can say that L'ak was turning into a McGuffin even before he died (everything important about him was either infered or told to us by someone else) and Moll is probably the show's least successful antagonist in both writing and acting. And even I, who does not care about her, recognizes that she got done dirty in the finale because they had to turn her into an idiot to fill out the hour. And all of the setup for Book to make as connection doesn't happen until after the action is over. Just a wasted opportunity. It would make more sense for everything if he had been able to pull her back from the brink, and communicate better how he has also accepted loss, etc. But no, she has to get the final dungeon puzzle wrong like she's in a mobile game ad.
Also, trying to get a show about characters and their drama to participate in an action adventure genre is a choice. This isn't their strong suit, and sometimes feels like watching people play Zelda. Some of the better future Disco episodes, like Unification III, the interactions with the 10-C, those were less adventure and more cerebral and character based. Stick to your strong suits!
The rest of the (fast forward to the future) finale was fine! Would've liked to have seen more of everyone else than just the hug scene, but they had limited time to pull it together.
It sucks that the show was cancelled here, TBH. Like, thematically it's been an okay final season, but character wise it feels like this season was a bridge between other arcs, because everyone's spinning their wheels the entire time. Ending on season four might've been preferable than not getting season six, as much as I do enjoy seeing everyone do their thing.
Been pretty ambivalent on Moll and L'ak the entire time, but I think I can say that L'ak was turning into a McGuffin even before he died (everything important about him was either infered or told to us by someone else) and Moll is probably the show's least successful antagonist in both writing and acting. And even I, who does not care about her, recognizes that she got done dirty in the finale because they had to turn her into an idiot to fill out the hour. And all of the setup for Book to make as connection doesn't happen until after the action is over. Just a wasted opportunity. It would make more sense for everything if he had been able to pull her back from the brink, and communicate better how he has also accepted loss, etc. But no, she has to get the final dungeon puzzle wrong like she's in a mobile game ad.
Also, trying to get a show about characters and their drama to participate in an action adventure genre is a choice. This isn't their strong suit, and sometimes feels like watching people play Zelda. Some of the better future Disco episodes, like Unification III, the interactions with the 10-C, those were less adventure and more cerebral and character based. Stick to your strong suits!
But yeah, Discovery, ended as it lived. Like SpoonyBard said, earnest, messy, well-intentioned. I'll miss it. (My husband won't, he prefers earlier Disco). But it walked so other shows could run. How did Strange New World nail its look in it's first season? Because the real first season of SNW was actually Disco S2, and they got to try out a look for the Enterprise! And decide to improve it!
I'm hopeful for the 32nd century shenanigans continuing in Starfleet Academy, but with some fresh blood in the writers room, especially Tawny Newsome.
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I think I agree with almost everything you said in your spoiler-pop, Lakupo. Only thing I'll add is that it seems like they liked the Moll character/actress and it kinda felt like they planned to bring her back later to better flesh out and do things with, just that isn't going to happen now.
Weird show. I made it two episodes into season 5 before violently switching it off out of seeming disgust. Get the impression it wants to be similar to Star Wars in action, as others have mentioned above and in the past. I haven't enjoyed it since where Season 3 took things, so the fact I kept up this long is on me. It's interesting reading the viewpoints of those who enjoy the show, or at least on the fence. In the back of my mind I'm trying to build-up the resolve (and find time) to finish the last season. I mean heck, I've seen THIS MUCH. May as well see things to their end.
I really don't understand that pov. If you hate the show thaaat much, just move on lol. If you just really like the franchise in general and this is your one exception, and you have that little gremlin inside that demands completion, just read some wikipedia synopses or watch a spoiler-review on youtube or watch the last 30 mins of the final episode or something. I get powering through something boring for the sake of completion, but not something that disgusts you. If you were disgusted by how S5 opened, nothing in the rest of the season is going to change your mind I don't think.
Yep that's quite sensical to drop it and deny further sunk cost fallacy. Unfortunately, curiosity will win out in the end. I survived two disliked seasons of Picard where Data and Lore's resolution made that trudge worth it, and then some. Maybe something about Suru or similar will ring true. If not? Again my own fault. Glad ya'll have enjoyed this oddball show, even if I fell off at the end.