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Falselogic

Techno-Threadcromancer
(they/them)
So in a roundabout way I just became aware of the fact that Toho released new 'zilla films in 2016 and 2022 that I've heard nothing about, and even weirder there seem to be hardly any pictures of online. Anyone know anything about them? Are they just not good and that's why nobody talks about them?

Are you talking about Shin Godzilla in 2016? That was great and there have to be pictures of it online. I saw it in theater in my random flyover state. No idea about the 2022 one.
Shin Ultraman came out this year? That's a Toho movie and Godzilla adjacent.
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
Sorry I meant 2018. I saw Shin, it was great. No, it looked like there were a couple Toho movies that I guess were remakes of some of the old ones, but I don’t have the page up now that I was looking at... lemme see...

Return of Godzilla (2018), remake of a 1984 version
Godzilla: the Kaiju Invasion (2022)
 

Adrenaline

Post Reader
(He/Him)
I just watched Shin Godzilla last night. It ruled. Scariest Godzilla ever. Great Anno depiction of realistic bureaucracy reacting to impossible events.
 

air_show

elementary my dear baxter
I think Shin Godzilla is interesting, but kind of boring. And I absolutely loathe the ugly, slow, dreary, unpleasant nightmare that is the first Godzilla Anime. I can't really motivate myself to watch the newer one because of how god awful that shit was. And I despise every kaiju design I've seen from it.

I really kind of love the American Godzilla trilogy so far. The first one I consider a genuinely great piece of Cinema, while King of the Monsters and Vs. Kong are just really good dumb fun.
 

Daikaiju

Rated Ages 6+
(He, Him)
I think Shin Godzilla is interesting, but kind of boring. And I absolutely loathe the ugly, slow, dreary, unpleasant nightmare that is the first Godzilla Anime. I can't really motivate myself to watch the newer one because of how god awful that shit was. And I despise every kaiju design I've seen from it.

I really kind of love the American Godzilla trilogy so far. The first one I consider a genuinely great piece of Cinema, while King of the Monsters and Vs. Kong are just really good dumb fun.
*fistbump
 

Beta Metroid

At peace
(he/him)
I think Shin Godzilla is interesting, but kind of boring. And I absolutely loathe the ugly, slow, dreary, unpleasant nightmare that is the first Godzilla Anime. I can't really motivate myself to watch the newer one because of how god awful that shit was. And I despise every kaiju design I've seen from it.

I really kind of love the American Godzilla trilogy so far. The first one I consider a genuinely great piece of Cinema, while King of the Monsters and Vs. Kong are just really good dumb fun.
I'm totally on board with thoughts on the Monsterverse and the first Godzilla anime. But I love Shin and Singular Point (which is completely different from the first anime). Also, Kong: Skull Island is a lot of fun, and may be my favorite of that series, despite me definitely being more in Camp Lizard than Monkey.

Anyway, I love how Godzilla can comfortably slide between goofy spectacle and somber social commentary, and it's been great getting helping of both in recent years!
 
Shame you won't give Singular Point a chance based on a project that has nothing to do with it made by completely different people, and because of the monster designs. The last point especially when that's actually a plot point. When Godzilla achieves its final transformation into a much more recognizable form is a really effective goosebumps moment.*

I thought the show was fantastic. I thought it was incredibly faithful and respectful to the franchise, really nailing the feeling of small helpless people fighting forces of nature and triumphing against all odds but only when they've made an attempt to understand the threat. It's a really charming and fun reimagining/modernizing of the of the concept, and also simultaneously making the show a legit really good sci-fi story. Also, I don't know if this will be a selling point to you or the opposite, but Hideo Kojima loves the show, haha.


The stinger at the end teasing Mecha-Godzilla was so good. I just really hope we'll get a sequel one day because it deserves it.
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
Even setting aside how Godzilla vs Kong was a letdown, the Monsterverse movies are all so fun, just the ideal form of Kaiju movie.

Well, next to Pacific Rim, that’s untouchable.
 

air_show

elementary my dear baxter
Shame you won't give Singular Point a chance based on a project that has nothing to do with it made by completely different people, and because of the monster designs. The last point especially when that's actually a plot point. When Godzilla achieves its final transformation into a much more recognizable form is a really effective goosebumps moment.*

I thought the show was fantastic. I thought it was incredibly faithful and respectful to the franchise, really nailing the feeling of small helpless people fighting forces of nature and triumphing against all odds but only when they've made an attempt to understand the threat. It's a really charming and fun reimagining/modernizing of the of the concept, and also simultaneously making the show a legit really good sci-fi story. Also, I don't know if this will be a selling point to you or the opposite, but Hideo Kojima loves the show, haha.


The stinger at the end teasing Mecha-Godzilla was so good. I just really hope we'll get a sequel one day because it deserves it.
Ooof. You know I went ahead and watched and read the spoilers because I wanted to grasp that they might make me more interested in watching it but... I still just don't like that design. I don't like the big external fangs. I don't like how he opens his mouth unnaturally wide. I don't like how the breath attack is made into this hyper focused beam that takes a million years to charge up. And I don't like this trend of him evolving like a Pokemon either. Godzilla should feel like something ancient and primal and eternal, not a freaky mutant that keeps leveling up to new forms.

And I especially loathe that choppy Anime CG style he's in. I have never ever ever liked that look in anything and to see it overwhelmingly be the direction they've gone in monster and mech designs in general just guts me and breaks my heart, to say nothing of seeing it done to Godzilla. And they did my boy Jet Jaguar fucking DIRTY. I pour one out for the better timeline where he gets animated in beautiful Gurren-Lagann-era Trigger Style and Ultra Kicks Gigan into a star.
 

air_show

elementary my dear baxter
Even setting aside how Godzilla vs Kong was a letdown, the Monsterverse movies are all so fun, just the ideal form of Kaiju movie.

Well, next to Pacific Rim, that’s untouchable.
I like Pacific Rim a good bit but I think it's a little up its own ass for what it is. I would love it if they'd do a soft crossover and just introduce the idea of Jeagers into the MonsterVerse. Jet Jaguar should be one, but should experience an accident where his pilots are killed but he gains autonomy. Autonomous Robot Kaiju are just Better than Piloted Robot Kaiju and I will die on this hill.
 
Ooof. You know I went ahead and watched and read the spoilers because I wanted to grasp that they might make me more interested in watching it but... I still just don't like that design.
I know a large part of the appeal of Kaiju stuff is monsters looking cool and all, but regardless there's a legitimately good Godzilla story here. So if that aesthetic decision is too much for you to get past 🤷‍♂️
 

Paul le Fou

24/7 lofi hip hop man to study/relax to
(He)
I really like Shin for what it does in making Godzilla terrifying again. A gigantic, horrifying monster destroying everything in its wake for completely inscrutable reasons, like an angry god bringing down its wrath. For so long, Godzilla became a hero, which I totally get because it's cool and fun and we love big monsters, but Shin pulls the rug back out from under us. It takes away as much familiarity as Anno and crew were allowed to while still making it recognizably Godzilla in order to make it all the more uncanny and frightening.

Also the way the smoking fire breath heats up into the focused purple laser is cool.


The monsterverse movies try to toe that line, making Godzilla more of a force of nature, a Very Large Animal, and humans are just observers who try to minimize damage, usually ending up on the same side as him. But really, they're not fooling anyone. King Kong was already positioned to be a human-relations monster, and I think they tried to make this happen with GvK, but it was a pretty flimsy setup.

Note: I love the monsterverse movies and want more of them (were they done? I was under the impression GvKK was going to be the last one?), they're just more squarely in the "Godzilla is a hero! A scary hero, but a hero nonetheless!" camp.


FWIW, the anime movie trilogy did manage the "Godzilla is a terrifying monster destroying everything we hold dear" angle pretty well, it's just that literally everything else about them was utter trash. The first was passable, but the second was bad and the third nigh unwatchable.

I do want to see Singular Point though.
 

Paul le Fou

24/7 lofi hip hop man to study/relax to
(He)
My Godzilla hot take is that I've never liked the classic theme song all that much.
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
Gotta admit that the theme song really doesn’t work when Godzilla is supposed to be a terrifying force of destruction incarnate.

Works great when he’s a nuclear lizard superhero
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
I didn’t like Shin as much as others, but it did great job establishing G as being something completely bizarre and horrifying
 

air_show

elementary my dear baxter
I didn’t like Shin as much as others, but it did great job establishing G as being something completely bizarre and horrifying
Where I get hung up is... why is that a thing now? Is being completely bizarre and horrifying a Godzilla Thing? I'd say no. Yeah, the first movie is kind of scary because of the bleak tone and black and white and Godzilla certainly is monstrous, but he's not a hideous Un-Creature that Should Not Be. Not to the degree Shin Godzilla is at any rate.

Like, what irks me is when people say "Shin Godzilla brings back the classic tone of the 54 classic" and I'm like... how?? This creature has far more in common with Hedorah than the '54 Godzilla. It's Hedorah cosplaying as Godzilla.
 

Falselogic

Techno-Threadcromancer
(they/them)
I think you, me, and everyone else might be inured to the horrors of nuclear weapons? The original Godzilla is supposed to be horrific. His skin texture intentionally made to resemble keloid scarring that survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had. I think Shin is trying to recapture that but audiences, especially international ones, have no context for that kind of horror. So, they really tweaked the design of Godzilla so that once again the viewer is arrested by the horror of the creature.
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
Also, while I agree that I never really *wanted* a Godzilla that is a bizarre and horrifying monstrosity, Anno did, and he did a *real* good job of realizing that image.
 

Paul le Fou

24/7 lofi hip hop man to study/relax to
(He)
Is being completely bizarre and horrifying a Godzilla Thing? I'd say no. Yeah, the first movie is kind of scary because of the bleak tone and black and white and Godzilla certainly is monstrous, but he's not a hideous Un-Creature that Should Not Be. Not to the degree Shin Godzilla is at any rate.
You'd be wrong. That's entirely the point of the first movie. it's a response to the overwhelming horror of the atomic bombs; the G-man of the first movie has always been meant to be viewed with the same awed, incomprehensible terror as watching an atomic bomb go off and witnessing the aftermath.

It's made in cheesy-looking rubber suits with not even the height of 1954 technology and can't land anything close to that effect on today's audiences. But that doesn't mean that's not the intended effect, or what the effect was (closer to?) at the time.

Bringing that feeling back is what Shin is trying to do. I think it worked! It also became an incredibly popular design and has basically replaced the Toho suits as the studio's official image of Godzilla, which I find strange, but the film was monstrously successful (I swear to god that pun was not intended but you know I have to keep it) in Japan, so, I guess it makes sense. Still surprised there isn't going to be a sequel, but Anno is working on a Shin Ultraman and Shin Kamen Rider to fit into a "Shin cinematic universe" or whatever, and it seems Toho is still making movies, so I guess that works.
 
Yeah, not that I blame you because it's not really second nature to most people/can often be difficult to do, but you're not coming close to putting yourself in the position of a regular joe in 1954 - regarding their expectations, the culture they're in, the context of the war they just came out of, the novelty of this kind of movie having really never been made before, etc, etc. Kaiju movies morphed into something else the way most media does over the years as they balloon in popularity/get sanitized for general audiences/beloved by kids and families/etc etc. But yeah, that was the whole original point of the original Godzilla film. Shin nails it. I personally think Singular Point nails it as well.
 

air_show

elementary my dear baxter
See I'm still gonna have to go ahead and still disagree with you there. While I can agree that:

Yes, Godzilla in 1954 is deliberately designed to look like something of a victim of a nuclear blast, charred and scarred as such like something wounded and angered by our reckless civilization. And yes this Godzilla is meant to evoke an existential sense of smallness and hopelessness against something ancient and terrible that dwarfs our place of superiority on this world (until we invent something equally existentially terrible to kill it). However:

No, Godzilla was not designed to be some grotesque nightmare mutant right out of classic David Cronenberg body horror. He's not supposed to be a disgusting Lovecraftian Thing that looks like a bunch of shoggoths got together and decided to morph themselves into the vague shape of a dinosaur. He especially wasn't desgined as a big gross ugly looking floppy fish salamander that quickly shapeshifts into a more recognizable form.

I submit that Shin Godzilla is not successfully recreating the tone and atmosphere of the original 54 film at all. It's a brightly lit movie with an ultimately optimistic tone about dutiful civil servants doing their best to save their country in a surreal disaster situation. The original film's climax involves a tragic figure sacrificing himself to protect the world from the weapon he's using to kill Godzilla. Shin Godzilla ends with THE TRAINS' REVENGE.

Shin Godzilla is not an old and angry wounded creature lashing out against a world that doesn't understand him. He's a gross dead-eyed walking pile of young mutated slop because Anno is an edgelord who thinks making him more alien and grotesque means making him "scary" again in the way that the original was scary. And I don't think it even achieves that. Shin Godzilla looks like something Junji Ito drew (which is praise, I'll grant that) but the things he does are relatively tame. He walks through buildings, roars occasionally, blows stuff up with a breath attack, and shrugs off artillery (but flinches at trains crashing into him somehow). Pretty standard stuff we've been seeing for 60+ years, he just made the breath attack more anime, which is *checks notes* not scary.

I'm aware that there are storyboards and concept art implying a very gruesome fate for the civilians caught in this Godzilla's path, and if the movie had actually had the guts to show those fates I would at least respect it for the full pivot into horror territory, though it would also reinforce my suggestion that this monster has more in common with Hedorah than Godzilla. I don't know if I'd blame the filmmakers directly for this though, seems like more of a Toho mandate not to let things get too ugly. Between that and the third anime film copping out of the implied Mothra Twin Cannibalism, it seems like that might be a thing with Toho.

Anyway that's my TED Talk about why I don't think Shin Godzilla is a Very Good 1954 Remake, Actually. I'm not trying to start a big back and forth argument for the record, my opinion doesn't invalidate anyone else's feelings on the film. I just had to get this out of my system once and for all.
 
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I'm aware that there are storyboards and concept art implying a very gruesome fate for the civilians caught in this Godzilla's path, and if the movie had actually had the guts to show those fates I would at least respect it for the full pivot into horror territory
My understanding is that yes, Toho very explicitly doesn't let that kind of violence happen in Godzilla-anything. It's a shortcoming in Singular Point as well, where there are very important character deaths that are only very softly implied but never stated overtly or acknowledged because again, that's apparently not allowed. It sucks, but I wouldn't chalk that up to cowardice on the part of the movie or people making it. But the implied violence in S.P. is very much real and terrifying.

Anyways, I see where you're coming from. I don't agree with it, but I see it now.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
Shin Godzilla is not a remake. It is, however, riffing on the themes of the original in a way that isn't done by any film where there are multiple kaiju that fight each other. Consider, for instance, how in 1954, Big G is defeated with a weapon of mass destruction, whereas in 2016, he is defeated with civilian infrastructure.
 

Adrenaline

Post Reader
(He/Him)
I don't think Shin Godzilla is trying to directly recreate Godzilla, I think they are both intended to be horror films reflecting the times and cultures in which they were made.
 

Tegan

𝑬𝑿▰▰▰▰▰▱▱▱
(She/Her)
So a follow-up to this:
Sorry I meant 2018. I saw Shin, it was great. No, it looked like there were a couple Toho movies that I guess were remakes of some of the old ones, but I don’t have the page up now that I was looking at... lemme see...

Return of Godzilla (2018), remake of a 1984 version
Godzilla: the Kaiju Invasion (2022)
I looked into this and these are, sadly, not real movies. Much weirder, they are incredibly detailed (but entirely fictionalized) wiki pages about movies that don't exist.


If it weren't for the word "fanon" right there in the URL, I almost wouldn't have guessed. Skimming the first one, it makes links to outside pages that would reference the film if it were real, production history, home releases, trivia, and my favourite part: somewhat detailed negative critical feedback under "Reception."
 
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