Capcom's Other Ryu: Talking about Breath of Fire

[SpoonyBard]

The recent Breath of Fire I & II episode of Retronauts got me interested in giving BoF2 another look as it has been quite some time since I last played it. BoF1 I had replayed fairly recently, but not BoF2.

I'm currently just about to enter Simafort, and wow I had forgotten how tedious the whole 'Go to Capitan, then go to Township, then go back to Capitan, then go back to Township, then...' segment was. No one in the party at this point could have warp (I think Jean is the first party member that can learn it, and not till Lv14). One benefit of playing it on Switch is that I can rewind so abusing Rand's overworld travel ability helped a bit.

Speaking of abuse, I am making judicious use of rewind and save states because Breath of Fire II is a dirty cheater so it's only fair to respond in kind. In fact, I took advantage of a fairly recently discovered exploit that lets you get tons of Zenny right at the start of the game. And even with not having to worry about money, that does nothing to help against the encounter rate (besides keeping lots of Smoke in stock).

And oh man, that encounter rate. It is just downright silly in places. Rewind helps a bit since you can use it to fudge with the stepcounter, but that eventually hits a point where it's almost less annoying to just do the fight.

But anyway, despite all those gripes it has still been a fun nostalgia trip, and I look forward to getting the whole Simafort scenario behind me so I can get Bow back and actually use him in this playthrough. I want to try and use some of my neglected party on this run instead of just falling back on good ol' Rand, Katt, and Nina. Hell, I might even abuse the cooking guy in Township and get enough stat-up items to even make Jean useful!

 

[Octopus Prime]

I started playing the (extremely extensive) fan translation for the game the last time I played it; I don’t think it addresses the games mechanical shortcomings, but having a comprehensible translation is a massive step up.

The trade off for which being that… there’s some stuff in the games script that benefits from being obscure, we’ll say.

 

[Peklo]

II is so vile that by those merits alone it's the low point of the series for me--the encounter rate doesn't help either. It's just visually gorgeous, so that factor feels almost like a waste.

The original is probably the most straightforward Dragon Quest envy I've seen any game express, but it made that simplicity work for itself. By III they hit their stride they don't really come off until the series just evaporates from the industry. It was a great few years.

 

[Gaer]

I hate how dragon powers suck so badly in BoFII.

THAT ISN’T HOW THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO WORK, CAPCOM.

 

[Kirin]

Yeah, I'm not sure I ever made it through II back in the day. III and IV were delightful.

 

[Octopus Prime]

2s greatest strength was that it came out when I was 12 years old.

 

[SpoonyBard]

2s greatest strength was that it came out when I was 12 years old.

Mmmyeah, same. It came out shortly after I was first exposed to RPGs and was getting obsessed with them, so this playthrough is fueled considerably by nostalgia, and also due to a desire to try some party combos I never did previously.

But there are certainly better RPGs to recommend. Hell there are better versions of THIS RPG to recommend.

Still, visually and musically this game still stands out. III and IV might do the audio/visual stuff better but II is still an impressive looking SNES game. And while the story was incomprehensible for the most part due to the, let's say, lax localization I'm still pretty sure this is the first example of the 'What If God But EVIL' story trope in RPGs I was ever exposed to.

 

[Torzelbaum]

Hey BoF 2. estragon talked about it in the gripe about what you're playing thread a little while ago:

I think that basically every change from Breath of Fire to Breath of Fire 2 is a change for the worse.

It's not the worst 16-bit RPG by any stretch of the imagination, and it has a pretty solid foundation as basically a Dragon Quest clone. But I don't think its attempts to explore new ground are very fruitful. Mostly it really makes me appreciate how strong the first Breath of Fire was by comparison.

Finding it hard to disagree with you. BoF 2 had some neat / interesting ideas (Guts, Shaman transformations, town building, skills/spells that could be learned by any character) but did seem to find ways to make everything just a little annoying one way or the other.

But that 'cinematic' with Ryu at the final battle was pretty cool, right?

But back to the conversation about it here.

I hate how dragon powers suck so badly in BoFII.

THAT ISN’T HOW THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO WORK, CAPCOM.

Gaer knows what's up.

 

[Lokii]

I’m enormously found of this series, but I can’t say I personally enjoy II very much. But heck if Capcom needed a steppingstone in order to get to III/IV I’m glad it exists. Plus it does a lot of cool individual things! It’s just tough being the middle child. -_-

 

[Octopus Prime]

My favourite thing in BoF1 is that in the second dungeon you get the Earth Key.

An infinitely reusable attack item that stays helpful until the middle of the game.

 

[estragon]

My favourite thing in BoF1 is that in the second dungeon you get the Earth Key.

An infinitely reusable attack item that stays helpful until the middle of the game.

Yes!

Both BoF 1 & 2 have totally unbalanced battle systems, but BoF1 is mostly unbalanced in a fun way while BoF 2 is mostly unbalanced in a tedious way.

One of the things that bugs me the most about BoF 2 is that the game includes separate systems for limited on-screen encounters and a set number of random encounters per screen that stop once you've done enough, but they're only used for one-off gimmicks and most of the time it just has an absurdly high random encounter rate.

I think it's representative of the game as a whole: Lots of little gimmicks that are totally wasted.

But anyway, despite all those gripes it has still been a fun nostalgia trip, and I look forward to getting the whole Simafort scenario behind me so I can get Bow back and actually use him in this playthrough.

I really recommend using Bow, even though he comes back at a low level. Endgame encounters and dungeons get pretty stupid, and they're a lot easier with both Bow and Rand to use high level healing spells. There is no real downside to this, because they're not like FF1 white mages who are particularly weak attackers either.

 

[ghosttaster]

I feel like II, III and IV all lack any real reason to experiment much with the dragon powers... I love the series overall but frankly they're mediocre games saved entirely by Capcom art design

 

[FelixSH]

III was my introduction to JRPGs. Will always love the game, and it's artstyle. Such great sprites. I also do like the story, and how it is more than just a battle between good and evil. The game, and the series as a whole, has really nice world building

 

[Sarge]

I haven't played through BoF2 in some time, but I really ended up enjoying it overall. The original feels much more like it's following a Dragon Quest-ish template, which also has its charms.

As for the PSX entries, I think BoF3 is fine, but can be pretty tedious and the text is sloooooow. But I absolutely adore BoF4, and will stan for it any day. Now if I could figure out how to properly get into Dragon Quarter after bouncing off of it back in the day...

 

[Sprite]

I think I beat I back in the day, and played about halfway through III.

I absolutely devoured Dragon Quarter, though. What a work.

 

[Beowulf]

I started playing the (extremely extensive) fan translation for the game the last time I played it; I don’t think it addresses the games mechanical shortcomings, but having a comprehensible translation is a massive step up.

You mean the Ryusui translation, yes? I played it a few years back; it is indeed a massive improvement.

I think the BoF games all deserve a lot of credit for how experimental they were (even when those experiments didn't pan out). North American folks tend to forget how huge the jrpg scene was in Japan and how few of those games we actually got, and how many of those were just outright clones with a new skin on them. BoF1 started life as a descendent of Dragon Quest, but they could have stopped with "And you can turn into a dragon" and didn't. They went all-out with animal people and map abilities and time travel and merging party members. Not everything worked, but enough did that it's a really solid game. BoF2 saw them try to build in a build of directions from that, and most of them didn't work out, but that's the nature of experimentation. And even through the terrible translation, the plot was amazing! The "god is evil" thing is old hat now, but when BoF2 came out, an evil god with an evil church was crazy!

I take a lot of the better and worse parts of 3 and 4 through the same lens: They kept trying new things, and some of them worked while some of them didn't. The plots of both remained top-tier overall, even if they both got stretched with sidequests and chapters that weren't quite working. They learned from the bad dragon powers in 2 and made them much better from then on. The worldbuilding got better. The characterization got better. Hell, the fishing minigame got better!

I personally didn't like Dragon Quarter. I read a full LP of it and I think the plot and worldbuilding continued to be excellent, but the direction they took the mechanics in really didn't do it for me. But that's okay! That's the nature of experimentation. I wish we'd gotten a DQ6, even though I fear they'd have used the same map/battle mechanics as DQ, because I wonder what they would have come up with for it.

(A few years ago, I used the BoF world map and adapted a lot of the worldbuilding to run a D&D campaign. It ended up with DeathEvn being a woobie and accidental deadbeat dad, and Myria and Deis teaming up to be the villains. Like you do. Then I ran a sequel centuries later, because the Dragon Clan really messed up ruling the world from their floating fortress and had become crysm ore.)

 

[YangusKhan]

I played the first BoF a whole lot as a kid. I remember printing out a walkthrough for it from GameFAQs for the final dungeon, because I was lost as heck and also wanted to know all the secrets in the game. I also love its soundtrack (the whole sound font for the game too, really). BoF2 was a bit of a white whale for me, because I could never find the dang thing at rental stores, and so the only source I had about it was a GamePro magazine. When I finally did get to play for the first time, I was pretty underwhelmed and I still have only made it through maybe half the game, if that.

As a matter of fact, BoF1 and Dragon Quarter are the only entries I've actually completed, despite numerous attempts at playing all of them multiple times. Not sure what that's all about, but I think it's because 3 and 4 really are pretty laid back RPGs, all things considered, so eventually I just kinda get bored and move on to something else. I do think the whole series has a fantastic sense of style, with excellent art direction and music, but it does seem to lack a certain special "oomph" to get me to complete the games.

I can only envision 2 possible ways for Capcom to bring this series back: 1) as part of a cross-over effort with its other properties*, or 2) getting a third-party developer known for RPG expertise to make one. But heck if I can think of any studios available for option 2 that aren't already chummy with SquareEnix.

* Upon some investigation, it appears there are Breath of Fire cards in Capcom's mobile card game TEPPEN, but it's pretty minimal and the only "heroes" from the games is a Nina skin for Jill Valentine. It's got a bunch of Unit cards for other monsters and characters from the series though...
Also, the less we talk about the poorly-executed Breath of Fire 6 browser game, the better.

 

[Torzelbaum]

the fishing minigame got better!

Not for me.

 

[Poster]

Just chiming in to join the BoF2 sux dogpile. I enjoyed the first a lot better in most ways. II does have the neatest Nina design, though.

I have always considered BoF to be a solid, if not spectacular series, particularly the non-DQ games.

 

[Gaer]

Dragon Quarter is the best game in the series.

It’s only issue was that it was mislabelled as jrpg rather than srpg, which probably added to the reasons fans (other than, like, me) hated it.

 

[gorha]

I played through the first game many years ago and remember it less than other games of a similar age, and when I tried replaying it more recently, I found out why that was: it's just dull, and, at least in English, almost incomprehensible. Say what you will about BoFII's localization, but it at least conveys the game's story, and has real item names instead of stuff like "Mrbl1". BoFII does have too many random battles, and they take too long, and I've never finished it without getting impatient and using frameskip, and I wouldn't want to play it on real hardware because of that... but I did care enough to finish it with frameskip. When the first BoF got boring, I just quit.

BoFIII is where the series really gets good, but it has a lot of the same issues as II did: battles are slow, dialogue is usually mediocre, characters aren't well balanced. It also has a lot more going for it, though. The skill system is cool. Fishing is fun. You can camp and talk to your party members to get their input on the story so far, as well as a reminder of what you're supposed to do next, which is nice if you took a break, and since this game rarely has a sense of urgency, it's easy to do that. But what really makes the game is the desert. I know a lot of people don't like the desert, so I guess this is my Breath of Fire III hot take: the desert is the high point, and indeed the point, of the game. All the slow-paced travel and setbacks before it serve to prepare you for this immense, featureless wasteland, in which every hardship you endured to get there feels insignificant in comparison, and, as it's the last obstacle between you and an enemy whose goal is simply to keep you away, you've basically already won once you cross it. The actual final dungeon and boss fights are just a formality; if the desert couldn't stop you, nothing will.

Rather than speed up the game, they turned its slowness into a strength. It's really cool.

My memories of BoFIV and Dragon Quarter are hazier because I haven't played them since the early 2000s, whereas I replayed III last year, but I thought they were great at the time, especially DQ.

 

[Torzelbaum]

BoF2 sux dogpile

I feel like saying it sucks is a bit unfair to BoF2 but I do find it hard to muster a strong defense for it.

 

[q 3]

I'm a big fan of my vague recollection of the highlights of BOF2, including the intro cutscene, meeting the giant dragon, and your hometown forgetting you, all of which occurred in like the first ten minutes

 

[Lokii]

I feel like saying it sucks is a bit unfair to BoF2 but I do find it hard to muster a strong defense for it.

lol I feel the same.

 

[Sarge]

I had no idea BoF2 was so reviled in these quarters! Anyway, I'll stick up for it, fuzzy memories and all. BoF2/4 are my favorites of the series. I don't think any of them are truly bad - even my least favorite, BoF3, is a rock solid JRPG.

 

[FelixSH]

"It sucks" feels awfully reductive. BoF II certainly has it's flaws, but it's not without strength and interesting ideas. The cool Shaman system as well as the building of your own town, that can take different forms, comes to mind. The artwork is pretty, and the story does some cool things - like the time skip in the beginning, or giving you a character at the start, just to take him away pretty soon. I always liked the different backstories of the characters, where most (all?) of them have some reason to have lost their homes. And, despite being not a direct sequel, you have neat story world building connections, like the Windians' flying capabilities being reduced over the decades, or having Deis and the city where everyone speaks in song as part of the world.

To be clear, I'm not arguing against people disliking the game. Just against the idea, that the game sucks.

 

[breakman]

Dragon Quarter is the best game in the series.

It sure is!

 

[Peklo]

I'm going to stress that when I throw around a descriptor like "vile" above, I don't do so lightly or without reason, or apply it to the game for reasons of like, game balance or mechanics, which to me are always negotiable and ultimately less relevant. I'm quoting myself from a while ago about why I have such a low opinion of II, because this thread is actually dedicated to the series.

I think both are aesthetically fine games with II being especially gorgeous to look at, but I also recommend against specifically the second game if depiction and treatment of women is something you pay attention to and care about in video games. I'm sure a lot of it got edited out in the famously wonky official SNES localization, but having played the fan translation there is just a constant, unending stream of lower and higher-end sexism the game doles out. It's probably one of the most aggressively "RPGs for Boys Only" types of experiences I've ever had in the genre, carrying with it the sort of Akira Toriyama-esque cartoonish mean streak veiled in "gags" via sexual puns and the like. Nina's introduced via a kidnapping plot where the script lingers on the threat of her being confined to sexual slavery; Lin gets treated like an object for her most central role in the narrative; there's a bit where the party enters a slumbering woman's bloodstream to fight off a virus or whatever as microscopic versions of themselves--the procedure is overseen by an old sage type who was explicitly removed from his position for sexual harassment, so of course he only exists in the game to subject every woman he sees to that routine, for presumed entertainment and delight. I believe the afflicted woman is also fat-shamed and ridiculed for her appearance, all casual-like and with no particular objection from anyone. It just never quits with this stuff, and too much of it is rooted in the scenarios themselves to be excused as the whims of a tasteless fan translation--my impression is they presented the game authentic to its spirit, and it is pretty rotten.

It's probably been five years or so since I played it, so the memories grow dimmer, but enough about it imprinted strongly enough that I'm not exactly itching to refresh on it. I think it's characteristic of particularly Capcom's output in that era--aesthetically high marks regularly offset by piss-poor gender politics. What the game does well ceases to matter when I don't want to interact with it because of the things it does so badly.

 

[MetManMas]

Even if you don't get into fan translation stuff Breath of Fire II is still a game where one of the female protagonists is mostly naked and prominently wears no undergarments. Like, I know much of the cast is part-animal but also none of the leading boys run around like that.

The game's got problems.

 

[estragon]

too much of it is rooted in the scenarios themselves to be excused as the whims of a tasteless fan translation--my impression is they presented the game authentic to its spirit, and it is pretty rotten

I can confirm that none of that material is invented by the fan translation.