A Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy: The Star Wars Thread

[Phantoon]

No offense, and not to get too political outside of the quarantines for it, but I don't think you know how this whole fascism thing works. The state essentially licensing out policing to corporate entities that are deeply intertwined with the state is fascism 101.

Regardless of this, the point is that they aren't faceless stormtroopers. They aren't true believers, there's a layer of separation there. Furthermore, if you can't see that there's a difference in tone between "defending yourself from an armed enemy" and "shooting a man in the face point blank as he pleads for his life" then I don't know what to say.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

They aren't true believers, there's a layer of separation there.

What if I told you most fascists aren't true believers, they're just opportunistic thugs with no moral compass. The "layer of separation" here isn't that these aren't fascists. It's that this is what fascism actually looks like. For every goose-stepping SS officer, there's a dozen brown shirts. It's one of the few actually interesting parts of the show. And it's both prescient and mildly disturbing that the show evidently feels the need to instruct its audience on these matters.

Furthermore, if you can't see that there's a difference in tone between "defending yourself from an armed enemy" and "shooting a man in the face point blank as he pleads for his life" then I don't know what to say.

Except he did the former too. The latter was just a consequence of doing the former. Either way this is hardly a novelty, even in this franchise. The morality on display here is a lot more clear cut than Han shooting first. If Andor doesn't shoot this guy, he WILL end up dead himself.

 

[Phantoon]

I'm not shedding any tears over dead fictional space fascists, the point I'm making is this is a paradigm shift for Star Wars. Death was cheap and easily justified, now it's unpleasant and more morally dubious. Rebellions are nasty, and the people who do them are also nasty.

Han shooting first was pushing Star Wars morals- that's the point. It's the ugliest portrayed death in Star Wars - it lingers on Greedo's smoking corpse in a way not seen in any of the other six films. It's supposed to be nasty, but ultimately justified. Han was clearly going to die if he didn't do what he did, he's a survivor.

Here it pushes the grey further still. Andor's fate is less clear, the cops' intentions could be anywhere from a beating to a murder. Interestingly he didn't intend to kill cop #1 at all and was just going to fight his way out, and only did the kill when he'd thoroughly backed himself into a corner. Ultimately, however, he was responsible for the situation. He cocked it up. He drew the attention on himself and didn't have the skills to get himself out of the situation. You see time and time again that he's just trouble for himself and everyone he knows.

One of the MI6 recruitment exercises is your tester picks a flat at random and to pass the test you have to convince the occupant to invite you in and have a glass of water on the balcony with them within fifteen minutes. What I'm saying is a proper agent would've never got in that situation in the first place.

 

[Torzelbaum]

One of the MI6 recruitment exercises is your tester picks a flat at random and to pass the test you have to convince the occupant to invite you in and have a glass of water on the balcony with them within fifteen minutes. What I'm saying is a proper agent would've never got in that situation in the first place.

Yes but MI6 is supported, sanctioned and funded by an established government and nation. MI6 can afford to be picky about who they recruit. I doubt that the Rebellion which is fighting against a galaxy-spanning empire has the same luxury.

 

[Phantoon]

Yes but MI6 is supported, sanctioned and funded by an established government and nation. MI6 can afford to be picky about who they recruit. I doubt that the Rebellion which is fighting against a galaxy-spanning empire has the same luxury.

The point I'm making (and that the show is making too) is that Cassian is gifted, but out of his depth, and it's a matter of time before his mistakes catch up to him. If you're in the game Cassian is, you don't get to be sloppy because you then get to be dead. In most series the thing stopping him from achieving his potential would be an unwillingness to do the murder thing, but he's fairly chill with that

 

[Adrenaline]

I'm enjoying the show. Andor is not a secret agent, he's a normal guy with some skills from being raised by smugglers. Two assholes harassed him for no reason and he tried to take control of the situation, but after accidentally killing one he correctly determined that his only option was to kill the other too.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I caught up and watched the third episode last night. The show is fine. But I feel like I probably could have skipped the first two episodes, and only watched the 3rd, and not really missed a single thing.

 

[Adrenaline]

Everybody who watched the board room scene in the original Star Wars and went on to work on the series themselves saw Vader force choke that guy and said, "this is awesome". Except the Gilroy brothers, who saw everything else in that scene and said, "this is awesome".

 

[Sarcasmorator]

And they're not wrong

 

[Phantoon]

They're bang on, I absolutely love it. Also the vicious Imperial putdowns about paperwork

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

And they're not wrong

Well, it’s definitely not what I, or I imagine a lot of people come to Star Wars for. But it’s a welcome change of pace nonetheless.

 

[Adrenaline]

And they're not wrong

nope!

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I spent the episode thinking the ISB guy was Jonathan Pryce but it's actually Anton Lesser, who played Qyburn in Game of Thrones and did a real good job of it.

I'm generally quite pleased to see them explore more of the fractiousness, suspicion, and backbiting we saw in Rogue One. It's interesting to see intrafactional conflict (you get stakes for the Imperials without having to root for the bad guys), particularly when we can see the Empire sowing the seeds of its own eventual defeat here, with one jerkass ISB agent pettily obstructing an investigation into someone we know will be key to getting the Death Star plans down the line. And it's interesting again to see the rebels before they'd really cohered.

 

[Fredde]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567515740827275270

 

[Adrenaline]

Just shooting a guy is kind of Cassian's thing at this point but when he shot that guy it made me feel more than almost every other scene I've seen where someone just shoots a guy

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Seems like this show's M.O. is to have two and a half episodes of plodding dialog, followed by half an episode of action that is more dramatic tension by weight than cool fights/set pieces.

I don't hate this show, I just kinda wish it was better planned out. (Edit: in the meta sense. The actual planning that must have gone into this show itself is really impressive.) I wish this show came first instead of Rogue One, and that it wasn't called Andor. Knowing the Rogue One M.O., it's not surprising that almost everyone died in the heist. And also knowing that a show is titled after a character, and is also a prequel to something else means there's almost no dramatic tension either because he'll have invincible plot armor the whole way. Which depending on the type of show isn't a terrible thing, but in a more grounded show like Andor where it's relying on dramatic tension more than anything else, and the harrowing feeling of vulnerability since he's just a regular dude and not a space-wizard, it very much undercuts things for me at least. I think if the show followed a character that wasn't Andor but still did most of the same things it would be a much more compelling experience.

I thought the tribal ritual was beyond weird.

 

[Adrenaline]

I don't really get that kind of argument. Even if it was a show that could kill off its lead, it wouldn't do so at the 6 episode mark. The tension is coming from how the whole situation plays out, not whether Andor lives or dies.

 

[Phantoon]

How many shows kill of their lead? Especially halfway through a series?

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I don't really get that kind of argument. Even if it was a show that could kill off its lead, it wouldn't do so at the 6 episode mark.

That's why I said I also wish it wasn't called "Andor". Make it more of an ensemble so you don't know who will live and who will die because you don't know who - by merit of having the show named after them - has all of the plot armor.

 

[Bongo]

One of the characters dies in a 2016 film.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

Just shooting a guy is kind of Cassian's thing at this point but when he shot that guy it made me feel more than almost every other scene I've seen where someone just shoots a guy

Luna does a great job of making it always seem like a snap decision. Like, he's looking ahead at how this situation will unfold if he doesn't shoot him, and it's going to end with either shooting the guy anyway, or the guy killing the rebel cell leader and Cassian and taking the money anyway, and he decides to just cut to the end.

 

[Adrenaline]

That's why I said I also wish it wasn't called "Andor". Make it more of an ensemble so you don't know who will live and who will die because you don't know who - by merit of having the show named after them - has all of the plot armor.

Not every story has to be going for the kind of tension you're asking for.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I've honestly found the pacing of the show a key strength. There is of course no question of whether Andor will die or end up with the Rebels. The tension is all in the how and why, and there's a lot of interesting stuff going on there. He's reluctant to commit but still willing to kill a man to make sure the heist stays a rebel victory, and not just one for him and one other guy. I don't think it needs to be (or should have been) an ensemble show.

I assume most everyone we don't see in something set after this will die or get arrested by the Empire by the end (of this season or the second), because the show is partly about showing the razor's edge people like Luthen and Mon Mothma are trying to balance on. Some of them have to fall, like some of the rebel cell had to die. This is risky business. We see the ISB starting to take things seriously. We know Mothma escapes to lead the rebels. I'm almost certain Luthen won't, and similarly sure that his fate will cause Cassian to commit fully.

 

[Johnny Unusual]

I've honestly found the pacing of the show a key strength

Yeah, I've been enjoying it, too. A very slow burn series in a way that I think actually works.

 

[Adrenaline]

Like, the first two episodes of this arc were to get you invested in the group of rebels so you'd care more when the heist goes down and things go wrong. If you found yourself bored because you knew the main character would be fine and didn't care about the others then the show is not for you.

 

[Phantoon]

Andor continues to be brilliant. He's an interesting and complex character, I'm glad he's getting fleshed out. It'll make Rogue One hurt more too

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

I want to like Andor. I think it does some interesting things. I think it does enough interesting things for me to keep watching it. It just feels kinda imbalanced. And I still feel nothing for its protagonist. He has one expression - where he looks like he's worried he won't make it to the bathroom on time but doesn't want anyone else to know just yet. He feels like a very passive participant in his own story, and he's rarely the most interesting thing going on at any time. When he actually does and says things it's pretty alright, but he's so far seemed very content to just sternly watch as things happen around him with minimal commentary or input on his behalf. Which is a choice, but it's an odd one. It's like someone took the internet meme of "the droids are the real pov characters" but then decided what if they took away all their quirky commentary that made them fun. All the scenes of politicking that happens far away from his POV are probably the best parts of the show, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

Andor and Rogue One seem to have this running theme of carrying on and finding reasons to do so while confronting mortality/imminent death. Which is superficially interesting to me, because that's very antithetical to what Star Wars usually is. And it's an attempt at a deeper thematic discussion than space wizards slanging phallic metaphors at each other, which is always welcome and deserves recognition. It's a side of the rebellion that rarely gets looked at, so I can totally get why people really in love with the Star Wars setting dig this kind of stuff. But it's also very oppressive and cloying to live in that space with very little in the way of counterbalance. Usually when stories focus on the existential dread of an ever-present promise of death, there's ample time spent balancing it out. All the pain and sacrifice will be worth it because of all these joyous moments that we also usually get to see. And in Andor/Rogue One, those things that are 'worth it' are merely assumed and exist off camera in other parts of the Star Wars body of canon. Which, ok. But after a while it just feels kind of exhausting.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Speaking of imbalance, I should probably discuss some of the things I DO like about Andor. Love the politicking and back-room dealings. I could watch a whole series worth of nothing but that. I think the show is impeccably shot. The choice to use more practical sets and location settings makes everything feel a lot more real versus the weird uncanny valley effect that the AR Screen gives to shows like Boba Fett - where the foreground feels detached from the background like a primitive video game with a skybox. Everything looks and feels lived-in. I think a lot of the supporting cast are interesting and fun, we just don't get enough time with them to really explore them better before they become sadness fodder. I really wanted to know more about the former imperials and what led them to go rogue. RIP. I was totally misinterpreting the whole heist -- stealing an "Imperial payroll" I thought they were looking for intel to perform assassinations on officials or something, but they're just crooks at the end of it, which plays into the whole moral grey area that being forced to operate as rebels leads them to. Focusing on things away from space wizards and superheroes with literal plot armor IS a breath of fresh air and goes a long way to making the Star Wars setting feel like it's an actual place filled with people in a huge galaxy vs everyone existing within 2 degrees of separation from each other. Always interesting to see more walks of life in this setting. Also, it's mostly just a meme, but it is nice to see some shoot outs that feel like they have actual gravity to them instead of what usually happens in a Star War. Also this show hasn't had all that much of it, but what it has had of ship-porn has been porntacular.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

Yeah. I know there's a second season coming but I'll probably cap off this series with a Rogue One rewatch.

 

[karzac]

I started watching Andor last week (I'm now up to the Eye) and it's maybe my favourite Star Wars thing outside of the first two movies? It's so fucking good. It does what Rogue One was trying to do, but executes it so much better (although I'm interested in going back to Rogue One now and seeing if I've warmed to it). It does a much better job than most Star Wars productions and any modern franchise production of just the nuts-and-bolts elements of storytelling: Here's a character, here's what they're like, here's how they fit into the world and the conflicts they're involved in, here's what makes them interesting and why you should care. It's just extremely well written and acted. That first scene with Carn being told to sweep the murders under the rug is better storytelling than anything I've seen from the Disney blockbuster action machine since I don't remember when. And the heist in the Eye was just a really well shot and paced action scene.

None of it is groundbreaking or new. But so many of these shows just feel like they're going through motions. Andor is the first Disney+ production I've watched that feels like it actually understands how to take the time to set up a story and tell it well.