I'm playing through all of Final Fantasy, and everyone is invited (Playing Lightning Returns now)

Zef · Mar 12, 2021

Incidentally, I mentioned a while back that FFIV fulfilled the whole "narrative-driven gameplay" promises that Ninja Gaiden's cutscenes had first made, but, even more than other turn-based games in the franchise? This particular one just can't help having whole storytelling interludes happen in the middle of combat, or outright use the battle engine as a storytelling device, in every other boss battle.

The whole Dark Elf/Dark Dragon sequence, Golbez and Tellah's duel, Rydia's cavalry charge to save the party, basically every battle in Edge's arc... There's countless examples in this update alone, and while there's similar storytelling methods in III, V, and all the way up to IX, I'm pretty sure IV outnumbers them all.

X mostly did away with them but for a handful of fights (if that) and the nature of XII and XV's engines doesn't really allow that beyond conversations happening in the background. Can't speak for the XIII trilogy since I've never played them. But IV will always feel special for how it elevates its major battles to narrative events long before non-interactive FMV cutscenes took their place. I'm pretty sure that, if it were made today, with all the budget of modern Square-Enix, Rydia summoning Titan, or Yang fighting off the Bombs, or the "fight" with Edge's parents, would all just be beautifully-choreographed, shot, and rendered, but also completely passive, CGI movies.

Sarge · Mar 12, 2021

See, now I'm imagining a version of FFIV that has NInja Gaiden-style cutscenes and it sounds amazing. You could even intersperse them in actual combat - Tecmo did that in Tecmo Super Bowl with important plays, and it worked really well.

Mightyblue · Mar 12, 2021

I'm just surprised more rpgs didn't go the PSIV route I guess. Seems like it'd be relatively cheap to do some tiled splash images (especially in the CD era) to get around making more sprites and animation routines or CGI to do the same.

FelixSH · Mar 13, 2021

Right, instead of making new, dumb threads, I wanted to make a mini-update.

jpfriction said:
I'm an entire game behind at this point but I finally stuck with a Final Fantasy III playthrough (translated famicom rom). I think this is attempt number 4? Always seem to drop off somewhere around the second crystal. Heading into the crystal tower now, though, I think I may actually power through this time.

It's a good one!

I'm glad to read this. FF III is for now at the top of my favourite FF list, right alongside IX. I'm curious how this will develop, but it has such a joyful tone, I love it dearly.

Zef said:
Incidentally, I mentioned a while back that FFIV fulfilled the whole "narrative-driven gameplay" promises that Ninja Gaiden's cutscenes had first made, but, even more than other turn-based games in the franchise? This particular one just can't help having whole storytelling interludes happen in the middle of combat, or outright use the battle engine as a storytelling device, in every other boss battle.

The whole Dark Elf/Dark Dragon sequence, Golbez and Tellah's duel, Rydia's cavalry charge to save the party, basically every battle in Edge's arc... There's countless examples in this update alone, and while there's similar storytelling methods in III, V, and all the way up to IX, I'm pretty sure IV outnumbers them all.

X mostly did away with them but for a handful of fights (if that) and the nature of XII and XV's engines doesn't really allow that beyond conversations happening in the background. Can't speak for the XIII trilogy since I've never played them. But IV will always feel special for how it elevates its major battles to narrative events long before non-interactive FMV cutscenes took their place. I'm pretty sure that, if it were made today, with all the budget of modern Square-Enix, Rydia summoning Titan, or Yang fighting off the Bombs, or the "fight" with Edge's parents, would all just be beautifully-choreographed, shot, and rendered, but also completely passive, CGI movies.

Absolutely true. The whole "Tell a story by using the battle system" is really, really cool, and a reason why I always liked unwinnable battles in JRPGs (which is way clunkier than anything FF IV does, but it blew my mind, when it happened in my first JRPG, Breath of Fire III). IV has so many of them, and they are all great.

I hope we all agree, that it is absolutely unthinkable to attack Rydia before she summons Titan, or Kain, when you have to fight him.

Mightyblue said:
I'm just surprised more rpgs didn't go the PSIV route I guess. Seems like it'd be relatively cheap to do some tiled splash images (especially in the CD era) to get around making more sprites and animation routines or CGI to do the same.

I'd love that. The cutscenes in PS IV are so great, I should play through the whole game at some point. It was fun, before I abandoned it.

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Well, I didn't play too much, or, more specifically, most is side-stuff with not much to talk about. I mainly want to rant about the Sealed Cave.

But before that, two points:

1) While reading through Brickroads LP, I found a very interesting point from Zef. I forgot where he wrote it, but he thought that the Tiny Mage enemies (these hard-to-kill jerks in an early dungeon, who only attack with spells and steal your handfuls of MP) were a reference to the mini-dungeons of FF III, where YOU are playing mini-ed characters who only attack with spells. It's a great observation, and I want to adopt it.

2) I just want to complain about back attacks one just one time. I always plan to, and always forget. But they are so horribly punishing, that it's just a gamble if your mages will actually survive. Really, really annoying, because it takes SO LONG until you can finally do something. Not a fan. But than, the luck-driven things in JRPG-battles are generally not my favourites. I prefer to know exactly how much damage I will do, not having to fear crits (and, of course, not doing any) and just having all the information. FF X doesn't give that all to you (I assume there are still crits, and you don't see how much damage you will do), but knowing the order of battle alone makes it one of my favourite JRPG battle systems.

Well, with regards to new stuff, I did the two side dungeons. They were kind of hard, and I had to kill a trapdoor to give Rosa the final level up for Float, but they really give a ton of EXP. My favourite enemy group is in there too - the Frog witch, accompanied by a bunch of adorable Toads. I love that they are not in any way dangerous, and that they just annoy you, by turning your guys into frog. Or back. Or both in one round, because frogs are dumb. Also, she speaks to them. "Croak, my dears!". Not too sure, why she turns herself into a frog at the end, but that just adds to the joy of this battle.

The treasure in both caves are nice, and the design is absolutely great - I love the look-through floors, that show you the layout of the next level. Ashura was impossible, until Rosa learned Reflect, which made the fight hard but winnable. Leviathan, then, was surprisingly easy. Also, one of the monsters down here is a Chocobo, which means that Rydia doesn't summon a random Chocobo, but a special one.

The Sealed Cave, then, is the worst dungeon in the game. I swear, this thing is a reference to the awfully desinged dungeons in FF II, including the monster closets. There are all these rooms with nothing in them, but you have to look through them to find the way forward. You even have to fight a monster, and it's one of the most annoying ones ever. I just really dislike that they randomly kill one of you characters, and you are way too slow to do anything about it. And then, half the time the doors get replaced by another monster, and you have just wasted any MP that you used for Virus. I'm at the bottom now, having used that save point, and I think I only have to kill the boss. Because of story-stuff, you can't even use exit, but warp thankfully works. I'm glad, if I never have to play through that stupid place again.

Zef · Mar 13, 2021

Re: TrapDoors

FF II US is really not at all a difficult game, and even optional dungeons like the Sylph Cave and Land of Summoned Monsters are relatively adequate for the time they become available, but damn those TrapDoors are the reason I always stop everything and grind for Wall/Reflect before putting one foot in there. I'm still too slow to save the first Targeted character, but bouncing back a Disrupt is soooo satisfying.

Peklo · Mar 13, 2021

Finished the FFIV DS playthrough. More things:

as long as I've heard and seen people talk about RPGs, there are two that are consistently celebrated for their sense of "pacing." To begin with I'm not really supportive of that term--it tends to operate from the perspective that there's a single ideal to be reached, applicable to all games--but even in the context of FFIV and the other regular subject of those compliments, Chrono Trigger, I'm not really sure whether the former embodies the aspects of said ideal all that well. The key words and qualities that are seen to elevate these works are narrative propulsion, immediate and compact design, and variety of setpieces, just to roughly characterize aspects that are almost universally seen as aspirational and positive for the genre. I'll grant FFIV a lot for how it's essentially carried by sheer momentum throughout, but that single-minded desire to push forward at all times carries with it a risk of exhausting the player if it's all there is. This is something that many people felt keenly in something like FFXIII, one of the most transparently hyperfocused RPGs ever made, which bet it all on cinematics and battles and little else inbetween, and where I think the same criticism applies (and which again connects the two games more intimately than perhaps any other possible counterpart for either one within the series). The difference in my personal estimation is that XIII's building pillars are more compelling to me on both or all counts than IV's analogues, especially in the realm of environmental design and theming.

The middle stages of FFIV, comprising a third or more of the game, beginning in and around Troia, consign the game to a practically endless succession of caves and technological tower fortresses. The original version has it worse since the Towers of Zot and Babil sport identical tilesets, which the remake addresses by giving Zot a golden, ornate makeover that's welcome. But regardless, the Lodestone Cavern --> Tower of Zot --> Tower of Babil --> Cave of Eblan --> Tower of Babil, the second half --> optionally, the Sylph Cave and Passage of Eidolons --> Sealed Cave sequence, to which you can also add the Giant of Babil at tail end for even more of the same, comprise what's actually the vast majority of the game and make it a monotonous journey through the same kinds of places, doing the same kinds of things with only the narrative as embodied in the plot contextualizing those travels, and it doesn't really compel on its own.

To me, the estimation of FFIV as a compelling rollercoaster RPG ends around the return to Baron, for a couple of reasons: before that point, Cecil's development has occupied the forefront of the game both textually and mechanically, anchoring the rotating party structure with a cast of physically frail allies making both for interesting encounters with only one meatshield physical attacker to play around with, and thematically by pairing this ostensible leading man with the elderly, children and those generally "weaker" than himself, while giving him no capacity to do much of anything to support them except to passively continue on, hoping for some kind of change. The realization that shifts that dynamic on Mount Ordeals is deservedly the centerpiece of the entire game, for how it recontextualizes Cecil as a mechanical and narrative entity, but it's the peak after which a severe drop-off occurs in the nature of pretty much everything the games goes on to attempt as dramatic beats or as residue of its liminally captivating design sense; the best moves having been spent.

Palom and Porom's sacrifice not only writes two interesting party members out of the game (replacing them with a mechanically and thematically samey line-up in Cecil and a crew of men who hit things hard; melee becomes a focus after this point regardless of roster shifts) but presents a very effective dramatic scene that's later undone, for no particular reason. Complaining about IV's tendency to undo its over-the-top character deaths doesn't accomplish much, and that's not what's argued here; Palom and Porom's eventual revival is the only one that reads as sloppy to me for clumsily interacting with the potent futility imbued in allowing the player to try restore them at their own behest, always failing, and then performing that act offscreen by essentially ignoring the circumstances that made the scene meaningful. That's about as symbolic an event as I can conjure up for what I consider the peak of the game as an unified storytelling, no-frills RPG spectacle; the rest is not to my taste.

now is perhaps an opportune time to discuss Cecil: he's the worst FF protagonist. The arc of duality is a compelling and aptly portrayed premise, but that's all it is; his development occupies essentially the prologue of the game and is the only time he's met with repercussions for his actions--with Paladinhood achieved, he becomes static as a presence while also being granted universal pardon and levity to act however he wishes, because at that point the game has made it clear in its moral signaling that this is a virtuous hero, in looks and actions. Were this moral whitewashing absent, Cecil's continued behaviour would be easier to accept or at least rationalize as the complexities of a flawed man, but this is not a game or story of complex motivations; if the game dresses Cecil as a vision of all that's good, that's the weight and intent all his actions carry.

As such, we have his gamelong--on both sides of the transformative job change--fixation on always making sure to mention to strangers that yes, Rydia's mother is dead and her entire life destroyed, and that he was personally responsible for it; this continues even up to the point of Rydia's return to the party a decade or more later in her personal chronology, where Cecil still defines and downright introduces her through this one event to all who will listen. It does not come off as him trying to make amends for his crimes; it comes off as the egotistical martyrdom of someone dwelling on others' trauma to satisfy their own sense of self-serving importance without an ounce of consideration paid toward the person actually affected by it the most, turning it into public performance. He never acknowledges or is confronted for it until the game just mercifully stops writing the tic in.

The other formative scene comes about at the climax of the game, after all the revelations have occurred, the stakes established, and the course of action decided: this party is going to the Moon, and women are not invited. Cecil shows the door to both Rosa and Rydia, under the rationale that bringing both to the site of the final battle would be too dangerous or whatever else horseshit the scene is supposed to be about. This is not an unknown moment in the story, as it's not uncommon for people to ridicule it with a sort of merit-based logic in observing how mechanically powerful both Rosa and Rydia are and haven't they been through all the same shit the rest of the party has, all along? It's not an irrelevant retort, but talks around the more important issue to me in that this is an act of pure misogyny that was written for an uncompromisingly heroic character in an effort to make him appear virtuous and caring for it, instead of condescending and gaslighting in questioning and negating the abilities of the women around him and intimately involved in his life, and attempting to wield his masculine authority to silence them even at a cost to himself and the safety of his acceptably masculine companions. That's the actually mindblowing part to me, in that we're just supposed to accept this as an overbearing but kindly ultimatum, and relate to Cecil's morals in the moment, complete with Edge and Kain serving up comments like "this is work for grownups" and "no use arguing with a woman" as fellows unified in their sexism. Cecil only relents after the women are forced to justify the right to risk their own lives through their individual merits, and the game follows suit in allowing them to remain seemingly only because it's the only way for the mechanics to remain functional--not for any particular sense of allyship or understanding.

It's a lot to lay on the head of what's ultimately a simple story in a game for a young audience, but for that ostensible context it's actually more important than anywhere else that if you present a clear moral divide of good and evil people that the actions represented by those opposites align and preach those intentions accordingly, and dangerously irresponsible to frame reprehensible actions as aspirational. Cecil never learns any kind of lesson about his indictments that the audience could take with them and apply to themselves; the game doesn't even really seem aware or agree that his behaviour is an ongoing problem, and that's the fatal flaw in presenting a redemptive archetype like he's meant to be: you have to actually address the failings of your heroes for them to carry any meaning. Cecil is the worst protagonist Final Fantasy has ever seen because his crucial premise ostensibly tailor-fit for personal reassessment ignores large portions of his personality in favour of framing them as fundamentally heroic.

it's an observation that I've heard on occasion and largely agree with that in the numerous, almost uncountable allusions that FFIX would go on to make to prior games, Beatrix stands as the Golbez analogue for her own game, as the implacable antagonist who's never defeated by the heroes, and seemingly only allows the story to continue through its paces in simply deciding to stop fighting and opposing the heroes, allying with them instead. That all fits, but the particulars are what I find interesting and amusing, as Beatrix as portrayed in that role never gives an inch to anyone, is never forced to take a knee in a lapse of martial judgement; all the battles against her end on her terms and by her own hand. Golbez, despite ostensibly pioneering this archetype in the series, spends the entire game being taken by surprise, pratfalling as he may, and screaming things like "im... impossible!!" in flustered astonishment as he's foiled over and over. This is not to say the reputation is unearned, but it's achieved through different means, as Golbez's abilities are more in the realm of an uncanny knack to shrug off severe punishment and limp away laughing than sheer imperviousness. I find him funny for all of this, and a clear precursor to Exdeath in more than just the armoured frames that connect the two superficially: an over-the-top theatricism that at the same time disarms and masks the present threat. Exdeath is both more entertaining and more effective as a central villain, but as so many things in this series, such successes tend to be arrived at only through many steps of iteration, and Golbez is an important step in that process.

~~~

Final Fantasy IV! I still don't really like it that much, but it's pretty interesting to talk about.

MetManMas · Mar 13, 2021

Yeah, that scene where Cecil tries to leave Rosa and Rydia behind has never sat well with me. Classic misogyny bullshit right there with the whole "leave the women behind to protect them" thing.

FelixSH · Mar 13, 2021

Regarding pacing: I will probably write more about this at my summary post at the end, but for now, I'll add that I only find the pacing great in the first half or so. Namely up to the mentioned return to Baron. Up to that point, there are always little cutscenes and some form of character development. But the second half of the game feels, as a whole, like it just can't compare at all with the first. The moon is fine, there is not much there, but there doesn't has to be. I just reached it, and don't know all that happens, but it's only for the final.

The Underworld, though, is a different matter. As Peklo said, the game mainly becomes a dungeon crawler at this point, and to me, it stops having great pace here. Which is a shame, as there is still a lot of game left. The lived-in places, too, are underdeveloped, and it reminds me more of the World of Ruin in FF VI in some way - not a fair comparison alltogether, as there are character moments happening in the WoR. But all the main story events seem to happen in the overworld or WoB, while the underworld and WoR are mainly dungeon after dungeon, with a ton of side-quests to do, if you so choose.

It's a shame, but after Cecil becomes a Paladin, or at least after the return to Baron, the story clearly loses steam. It gets pretty clear, that Cecil and his arc are the main driving force of the game, in terms of story. Or at least meaty story. Sure, you still have Kains moments and stuff like Yangs and Cids sacrefices, but there is so much more dungeon between these moments than before.

Well, this got already longer than expected. I hope I will not repeat myself too much, at the end.

Juno · Mar 13, 2021

I actually felt the opposite about the first half of IV- I typically found the first half real boring and the second half is much more engaging. I always felt so limited with my party early on, but once you head underground the party composition is much more exciting to use.

MetManMas · Mar 14, 2021

Story-wise I don't care much for the second half, but gameplay-wise I really like that there are some extra towns and dungeons you are in no way required to visit.

FelixSH · Mar 14, 2021

Juno said:
I actually felt the opposite about the first half of IV- I typically found the first half real boring and the second half is much more engaging. I always felt so limited with my party early on, but once you head underground the party composition is much more exciting to use.

MetManMas said:
Story-wise I don't care much for the second half, but gameplay-wise I really like that there are some extra towns and dungeons you are in no way required to visit.

Yeah, the game is somewhat split into first, story-heavy half, and a second that is more focused on gameplay and dungeon-crawling.

I do love that you have suddenly all these side-quests to do, but it feels pretty different from what came before. And it's no surprise, that people respond differently to the different halves.

I am curious if this is just a relict from earlier games - that they ran a bit out of story, after Cecils transformation, or if this was an intended choice. I don't remember the other FFs well enough to say for sure, but I feel they aren't that dungeon-crawly in the latter half or third.

Peklo · Mar 14, 2021

My indifference toward the later parts of the game stem from what I consider the game's strengths and its particular interests and how those don't align with those sections too well. FFIV is a highly character-focused game both mechanically and narratively to the extent that it comes at a cost to world design; it's probably one of the least compelling settings in the series for me. World navigation is streamlined and guided, with only the tiniest branches to be charted out--it's simply not what the game is about. If I don't especially care for the characters featured to begin with, and I'm then asked to spend a lot of time with them in a world even the game doesn't seem that interested in outside of providing a steady succession of framing for character or story beats, it kind of falls apart on some end of the equation. It doesn't help that the party roster mostly ossifies in the latter half, too, depriving the game of the constant sensation of lively upheaval it previously had.

Again: apply all of this to Final Fantasy XIII, a game that I contrastingly love despite the two sharing so much. Nuances matter!

conchobhar · Mar 15, 2021

I finished Final Fantasy IV the other day. As said before, I've never much cared for the game, and my hope in replaying it after having played its predecessors (albeit not back-to-back-to-back in a marathon) was that I'd come around to having a certain appreciation for it. However, I've come away more mixed than before.

I'll start with the good. The parts of the game I liked before still hold up: the ever-shifting party composition, and how that affects not only the story but also your battle strategies; and the way that game mechanics are used to buttress the story (Tellah's stats and movepool reflecting his advanced age; Rydia initially not having Fire; and so on). Indeed, these are things I've only grown to appreciate more, as I learn just how uncommon they are (in the genre and series both). But with its predecessors in mind, I can also now recognize the ways IV pushed the series forward: that it introduced bosses that had tricks to them and weren't just damage races; that it brought a much greater degree of characterization to its cast.

However, this context did little to sway my overall opinion. I think my main criticism of IV is the pace; I echo Peklo's points about how the game grinds to a halt after the return to Baron, as it settles in with a mostly-consistent party and same-y environs, and becomes a real slog. But I'd argue that the pace negatively impacts the writing, too. That rollercoaster pace, of constantly jumping into a new situation, also means that the characters are given little time to ruminate on events, which, I think, undercuts the big moments. Take Yang's sacrifice in the Tower of Babel; the party is just starting to mourn him when Cid sacrifices himself, too. Perhaps the intent there is to show the mounting cost, but to me it just comes across as silly that Cid goes from saying "we've lost another good man" to "I'm going to blow myself up" in nine lines (I counted).

Worse, this pace undermines entire character arcs. Cecil's misgivings and guilt make him an interesting protagonist in the beginning, but all that disappears after he becomes a Paladin— as if he no longer has any reason to worry about his past actions now that he's been deemed Officially Good. More frustrating is that everyone simply accepts him as Good and bears him no ill feelings, including the mages of Mysidia. It would have been significantly more compelling if becoming a Paladin were not the end of his redemption, but the start of it.

The irony is that while the characters have much greater characterization than before, they are actually less compelling. II's characters may have been comparatively thin, but it knew how to get a lot of mileage out of them. Edward follows the same trajectory as Gordon, but does so in the span of a few scenes, robbing him of that same growth; and while Kain's shifting loyalties are more dramatic than Leon's, the explanation of mind control absolves him of culpability, which makes his betrayals (and ultimate alliance) much less impactful.

All that said, I don't regret replaying the game. While I didn't find any reason to re-assess it, it was still fun to experience it 'in context', with foreknowledge of the first three games, and see what it borrowed, what it remixed and what it invented. If nothing else, I can say I have a better understanding of the history and development of the Final Fantasy series.

FelixSH · Mar 16, 2021

Thanks for the interesting report, conchobhar. I would like to respond to it, but I think then I would just repeat myself in my summary post at the end. For now, let's just say I mainly agree with all your points.

Would you mind writing a bit about the difficulty of the GBA version again? Because, uh, the SNES version doesn't have any. I mean, there are some bosses where you need a specific trick (Ashura) or the random encounters near the end, but on the whole, I was nearly never even in danger of being wiped out. I think it only happend, when I first fought Odin. Part of that is likely, that I'm just experienced with the genre, but still. The SNES version is a very easy game.

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I also beat the game, yesterday. Where did I end writing last time? Oh, right, Sealed Cave done.

I honestly don't even know what to say about Kain actually not being really himself again. It really feels way too random, and like there are no rules. So, he can just betray us whenever the plot demands it, right? Not a fan, but ok.

King Giott, great, positive guy that he is, tells us that, yeah, everything is horrible, but there is still a way to save everything. I really like this guy, he might be my favourite NPC. You always come to him with bad news, and he is just "Eh, don't worry, we will find a way." You are pretty awesome, King Giott.

The ship remodeling scenes are pretty great too. I don't like Edge much, but it's really cute, watching him and Cid jump up and down, and just watching the whole scenes unfold. Adorable stuff.

I generally really love the small sprites. I think I never said that, because to me it's clear - little sprite people are adorable and the best, and Square really knew how to get them to be as expressive as possible. The whole artstyle helps a lot, when trying to give this game with it's dark story some levity.

Next, I did the whole trading sequences. Specifically, give Tail to Midget, give Adamantium to smith, get pan from Yangs wife, hit Yang.

One thing about the side-quest dungeons here: While they are technically side-quests, aren't they mandatory in a way? I mean, I probably got ten levels out of them. This might (maybe?) not be a problem until Zeromus, but that guy is basically a level check. If your levels are too low, Big Bang just kills you. So, dunno, it feels like these are sort-of mandatory. Or maybe you will just level up more in the final dungeon, I guess.

We get our final airship (in good FF tradition, it isn't able to do everything your OTHER airship can, so you still might need both). The Lunar Whale is a nice ship, and again equipped with beds and a Fat Chocobo. Also, there is another Crystal in here, which no one needed? I'll talk more about this in my summary post, but the way the story treats the Crystals is kind of weird.

The moon looks great and feels great. I even recognized the lack of music (not complete lack of, but there is a lot of silence in these caves). It's very moody and alien, plus these weird amoeba-monsters look fittingly alien too. I generally have a weakness for space in old anime, and this one fits really well. It feels calm, but also foreign and dangerous, like you shouldn't be here.

The first cave I found was the one with Bahamut inside. It wasn't too bad, except that I had to get out and rest, after the first Behemot. This is the first time, where these monsters are really dangerous. The ones from FF II and III might have been strong, but in the end, they were nothing more than slightly stronger encounters. Here, if you don't have a plan, you will be torn to pieces. My plan was, of course, Blink/Image. Always reapply, so that no one would ever get hurt, and everything worked out fine.

Bahamut is a bit too much of a gimmick fight for me. Either you don't know the trick (which will probably make you die, except if you time it correctly with Kains jumps) or you do (which makes the fight trivial. I'm also still somewhat dissappointed with the design - when I think of Bahamut, I think of the giant dragon from FF V onwards, not the Wyvern-like guy here. He is still a great summon, though.

I did also find the Namingway cave. I didn't do much there, stuff was too expensive here, but it reminded me of the lack of Moogles in this game, which really surprised me. I thought they were a mainstay after FF III. But I guess the Namingways are kind-of Moogles, just less adorable (IMO, of course).

The way to FuSoYas palace wasn't particularly interesting. When we finally get to him, the story feels like it takes a sharp turn. I understand that the game does a theme of Light vs Dark, and that there are twists and stuff, but learning that, behind the Big Bad Golbez, there is actually another force feels weird and clumsy. Is there any kind of foreshadowing for this information? I mean, it is a cool infodump, but it feels so strongly out of left field.

But at least we finally get an explanation why Golbez wanted to reach the Moon. He never wanted to, Zemus just wanted to reactivate the Tower of Babil. Granted, I did like this reveal, because it makes more sense to me than "There is Power on the Moon." Which might have worked too, considering that there are Crystals here, but it's a nice explanation. Everything that happens, happened because Zemus wanted to activate the Giant of Babil.

FuSoYa is fine, gameplay wise, but not much more. He has too few MP and his spells aren't nearly as strong as the ones from Rydia or Rosa. He does have the best "dead"-sprite, though. Considering his Amano-Art, I wonder if he looks actually more alien than it seems.

I really enjoyed that, when the Giant awakens, everyone comes to help us fight him. This could feed into the "Technology Evil" theme, if it had been more than a line in the game. It also, sort of, feels like a callback to Ultima in FF II, where the spell might have been super powerful at a point in the past, but technology and magic have evolved a lot, since then. It's not quite the same here - the Giant has to be destroyed from the inside. But it feels like with some more airships and tanks, or maybe a few more years of development, the Giant might have been simply beatable.

I don't have too much to say about the Giant as a dungeon, except for the end. I love that you have a re-fight against all four Fiends. Would have been even more fun to have them fight at once, instead of one after the other. But part of the reason for this fight is probably, to show how much stronger you have become. Maybe the GBA version is harder, but here, they all go down pretty easily. Still, nice to see Rubicant learn about the Power of Friendship.

The Core is an interesting boss, that I kind-of brute-forced. Cecil was still using the Avenger sword, which made him berserked, and at one point I just let Rydia summon Bahamut. Which, yeah, two people die, but the Core didn't have enough HP to survive a second Bahamut summon. It's at least obvious that he is a bonus, and somewhat overpowered for this place.

At this point, FuSoYa frees Golbez from Zemus mind control, which also frees Kain. We also learn that Golbez, too, is KluYas son, and therefore Cecils brother. Which, too, feels a bit out of left field, but I guess it's ok? Dunno, I'm just not too much of a fan of such twists, if they were never foreshadowed, which wasn't the case here, I think?

I also couldn't help but wonder - why did Cecil only reach the level of a Dark Knight (a strong soldier, but not excessively so) and Golbez became an incredibly powerful wizard? What was Goblez actually doing, when growing up? What did actually happen with KluYa? I'm confused.

We then have the scene, where Cecil thinks that girls aren't welcome on the suicide mission. Peklo already made a very good post about why this scene is dumb, I'll just say that I totally agree. This whole chivalry nonsense makes me want to barf.

The final dungeon is pretty cool. Maybe it's the checkpoints, maybe it's the fact, that you can find you ultimate equipment in here, but I had fun getting everything (which, again, seems necessary, as you definitely need more levels to beat Zeromus). Wyvern and Ogopogo especially were exciting fights. I also really like the desing of this place. It's so alien and strange, it's great.

Last time I played this game, I was really surprised when I got to the endpoint, and saw Golbez and FuSoYa kill Zemus. They honestly tricked me, into being confused who I was supposed to fight now.

I love the whole "Everyone prays for you and gives you their power", because I always love stuff like this. The battle background looks also really great. I'm actually not really sure, what to do with Zeromus' design. I think I preferred the weird, hairy design, compared to the, uh, whatever his final form was.

Enemy design in general didn't stand out to me much, thinking about it. In FF II and III, I always found single monsters that looked especially great, but here, I didn't. No idea if this is due to less interesting desing (I can't believe it would be this) or just that everything is more detailed, and nothing sticks out as especially good?

Even with the bosses, I found this to be the case. Sure, Golbez and Rubicant look cool, but nothing here beats the designs of Hein or the Cloud of Darkness, to me.

Don't get me wrong, it all looks good, but most things just didn't stand out. Except, maybe, MomBomb, that one was pretty cool and goofy.

As for the battle itself, I was really underwhelmed. I knew that attack magic would make Zeromus counter with Nuke, so I just didn't do anything with Rydia, and only healed with Rosa. Which created a fight, where nearly nothing happened. Zeromus just cast Big Bang from time to time, but never killed anyone with it. And there was so much time between the castings, that Rosa could easily fit in two Heal 4s. It looked great, when Zeromus fell apart, but the fight itself was very easy.

Well, that's it. I mean, there was still a very nice epilogue, that showed what everyone was doing now, and that was fun to watch. But I don't think I have much else to say about it than "really nice".

As always, I will write a summary post in the next few days, and than take a break to play something different. But for now, that's it.

Peklo · Mar 16, 2021

FelixSH said:
I honestly don't even know what to say about Kain actually not being really himself again. It really feels way too random, and like there are no rules. So, he can just betray us whenever the plot demands it, right? Not a fan, but ok.

This works out better in the DS remake, where the character thought bubbles are used to great effect. You get to see Kain feeling himself slip away in the Sealed Cave:

Kain: "This feeling... I've...I've felt it before."

Kain: "No... Not...not again!"

as well as struggle silently throughout the descent into the Lunar Subterrane, fighting off Zemus's influence:

Kain: "This wave of hate-does it emanate from Zemus?"

Kain: "No...these thoughts are not my own."

Kain: "I bear no...no ill will toward Cecil."

Kain: "No...that makes no sense. I would never...hate Rosa!"

Kain: "People's hearts are not toys for you to trifle with, Zemus!"

It turns a semi-comical mind control plot point into a fairly haunting treatment by turning the perspective on the victim themselves, which helps with the tortured depiction they want Kain to embody.

FelixSH said:
At this point, FuSoYa frees Golbez from Zemus mind control, which also frees Kain. We also learn that Golbez, too, is KluYas son, and therefore Cecils brother. Which, too, feels a bit out of left field, but I guess it's ok? Dunno, I'm just not too much of a fan of such twists, if they were never foreshadowed, which wasn't the case here, I think?

He backs off from finishing Cecil off during the confrontation in the Tower of Zot, recognizing (or suspecting) the relation between them. Cecil agonizes (and increasingly so in the remake, thanks to the additional internal asides) about just what it might all mean, as he did when the voice on Mount Ordeals called him "my son." He's not the brightest Paladin around.

FelixSH said:
I also couldn't help but wonder - why did Cecil only reach the level of a Dark Knight (a strong soldier, but not excessively so) and Golbez became an incredibly powerful wizard? What was Goblez actually doing, when growing up? What did actually happen with KluYa? I'm confused.

There is one truly additional storyline sequence in the remake, which comes at this point when Golbez is freed from Zemus's control. He begins a monologue about his childhood, where the game enters a controllable flashback played as kid G (or Theodor, as he was named; Zemus labels him Golbez as an insult). It's a brief scene that mostly exists to provide additional gravity to Golbez's susceptibility to Zemus's control, as he attests that he already harboured resentment toward the infant Cecil, stemming from their mother Cecilia dying in childbirth, and Kluya also having been killed by the people of the planet he taught his Lunarian magic to. Zemus takes hold of him through that angle, Theodor abandons Cecil in the wilderness (to be found and adopted by the king of Baron in atonement, himself eager to raise a foundling child of Cecilia's resemblance as it's suggested it was him who drove Cecilia and Kluya out of Baron for their union) and disappears himself, emerging years later as Golbez.

It sounds like a mouthful when trying to summarize it, but it's not intrusive at all to what the game is and how it treats its characters--alright supplementary material by me.

FelixSH said:
Enemy design in general didn't stand out to me much, thinking about it. In FF II and III, I always found single monsters that looked especially great, but here, I didn't. No idea if this is due to less interesting desing (I can't believe it would be this) or just that everything is more detailed, and nothing sticks out as especially good?

There are some standouts but I would generally agree with the comparative lack of compelling opposition. I think it's something that experiences a massive uptick in the series next up in V, when Tetsuya Nomura debuts as monster designer--both the concepts and quality of the sprite art for them increase by a lot.

Zef · Mar 16, 2021

FelixSH said:
I also beat the game, yesterday. Where did I end writing last time? Oh, right, Sealed Cave done.

Incidentally, didn't want to spoil the fun, but the version you're playing is the only one where you can cast the Crystal Room Warp and skip the entire Sealed Cave.

FelixSH said:
Next, I did the whole trading sequences. Specifically, give Tail to Midget, give Adamantium to smith, get pan from Yangs wife, hit Yang.

It's really a shame Tellah consumed himself in a conflagration of rage and vengeance and, well, flaming rocks from the sky, otherwise he'd have a pretty choice word to say about the reward for hitting Yang with a pan.

FelixSH said:
One thing about the side-quest dungeons here: While they are technically side-quests, aren't they mandatory in a way? I mean, I probably got ten levels out of them. This might (maybe?) not be a problem until Zeromus, but that guy is basically a level check. If your levels are too low, Big Bang just kills you. So, dunno, it feels like these are sort-of mandatory. Or maybe you will just level up more in the final dungeon, I guess.

Yeah, you do need to go through them, even if just to survive the first trip to the Moon. But even then, other than the Wall/Reflect grind to beat Asura and the TrapDoors, I usually still have to grind in the Lunar Core long just long enough for Rydia to get Meteo. Everyone else levels up along the way, but it has never felt right to waltz down to the final level without a full set of summons or Black Magic.

This is the reason why I'll be able to hum Battle 2 with all the guitar strums and percussion long after I've forgotten my own name.

FelixSH said:
The Lunar Whale is a nice ship, and again equipped with beds and a Fat Chocobo. Also, there is another Crystal in here, which no one needed?

They specify that this is a crystal of flight, so, even though it shares the same sprite as the others, I guess it means it's just a low-level, "power source" crystal and not an Elemental Crystal of Light or Darkness.

FelixSH said:
Bahamut is a bit too much of a gimmick fight for me. Either you don't know the trick (which will probably make you die, except if you time it correctly with Kains jumps) or you do (which makes the fight trivial.

I really do appreciate the Library in the Land of Summoned Monsters giving you a clue about this. It trivializes this fight, yes, but you still had to go through the spiked-square Behemoth guardians, but most of all it rewards exploration. I'm saddened by the approach from FF7 onward where even thorough exploration would never suffice, and you'd still have to look up a GameFAQ or a BradyGames guide. But here, your curiosity is vindicated in a major way.

Of course I always go in there with FuSoYa in tow so I have two Wall-casters

Speaking of clues and optional dungeons, you didn't mention the basement of Castle Baron. Did you take a look there?

FelixSH said:
FuSoYa is fine, gameplay wise, but not much more. He has too few MP and his spells aren't nearly as strong as the ones from Rydia or Rosa. He does have the best "dead"-sprite, though.

He's really a very decent Red Mage considering he's all blue.

Also someone please look up the photoshop of "squashed flat" FuSoya from our archived FF threads that turned him into a mop.

And about him being more "alien-looking", that's kinda what makes me wonder what features Cecil inherited that Golbez was able to recognize, but everyone else was fine with.

FelixSH said:
At this point, FuSoYa frees Golbez from Zemus mind control, which also frees Kain. We also learn that Golbez, too, is KluYas son, and therefore Cecils brother. Which, too, feels a bit out of left field, but I guess it's ok? Dunno, I'm just not too much of a fan of such twists, if they were never foreshadowed, which wasn't the case here, I think?

As mentioned above, there is that bit at the denouement of the Tower of Zot! where Golbez knocks Cecil away and identifies something in the paladin that makes him recoil, and we're left with no explanation until now.

FelixSH said:
The final dungeon is pretty cool. Maybe it's the checkpoints, maybe it's the fact, that you can find you ultimate equipment in here, but I had fun getting everything (which, again, seems necessary, as you definitely need more levels to beat Zeromus). Wyvern and Ogopogo especially were exciting fights. I also really like the desing of this place. It's so alien and strange, it's great.

My favorite bit about this dungeon is that, while you've been going in and coming out of "secret" passages (plainly visible in the SNES version), and the Lunar Subterrane certainly has plenty of those, it also switches things around by having an invisible bridge to lead you to the Crystal Sword/Ragnarok.

It's also amusing to me that that sword, as well as Edge's ultimates, get their own sections on the map, but the rest of the high-level equipment lie in a hallway of literal monster closets with bosses guarding them

And of course, the whole intro to the dungeon is great. All eight Lunar Crystals lend you their light to break Zemus's seal, you're transported there in a thunderclap, and then Theme of the Red Wings starts playing. It really feels cinematic and pumps you up for the final dungeon.

FelixSH said:
As for the battle itself, I was really underwhelmed. I knew that attack magic would make Zeromus counter with Nuke, so I just didn't do anything with Rydia, and only healed with Rosa. Which created a fight, where nearly nothing happened. Zeromus just cast Big Bang from time to time, but never killed anyone with it. And there was so much time between the castings, that Rosa could easily fit in two Heal 4s. It looked great, when Zeromus fell apart, but the fight itself was very easy.

Heh, I usually just tank the Nukes

I tend to open with Meteo and Jump as Cecil preps up to use the Crystal, so both attacks connect immediately after the hairball turns into a googly-eyed prawn-thulhu and he retaliates only with shuddering. From then on Rydia just cycles through Bahamut, Sylph, Red Asura, and Leviathan, while Rosa buffs and uses White when she has nothing else to do. Cecil and Kain just do what they do best, and Edge depletes my inventory of, ahem, edged weapons by tossing them at the Lunarian seafood.

(I always try to time it so Excalibur is the very last attack. Feels appropriate. But it came back to bite me on the GBA version because I forgot there was a postgame there. Argh.)

There's just so much I love about the endgame music, from Another Moon, to Within the Giant, to Theme of the Red Wings, to Final Battle, and the credits roll itself. Uematsu's leitmotifs shine through everywhere in the soundtrack, and this was the game that cemented the "crystal harp" arpeggio as the franchise's signature. He's definitely composed better or more complex themes over time, but in my mind, only FFVI rivals it as the most iconic Final Fantasy sound.

conchobhar · Mar 16, 2021

FelixSH said:
Would you mind writing a bit about the difficulty of the GBA version again? Because, uh, the SNES version doesn't have any. I mean, there are some bosses where you need a specific trick (Ashura) or the random encounters near the end, but on the whole, I was nearly never even in danger of being wiped out. I think it only happend, when I first fought Odin. Part of that is likely, that I'm just experienced with the genre, but still. The SNES version is a very easy game.

Ironically, you are probably playing the hardest version of the game (of the 2D incarnation— the 3D remake is its own beast). The American SNES version made a number of changes to simplify the game, which resulted in the removal of the Protect and Shell spells, the HP- and MP-boosting items, and each party member's secondary ability— for example, Yang can use Focus to miss a turn and deal double damage the next, which is useful against monsters that counterattack. None of this is really a big deal, though: the game is easy enough that Protect and Shell are inessential, and those secondary abilities are situational at best.

For my part, I think I had a slightly tougher time than you have been having, but even then it wasn't much. After the Magnetic Cave, nothing else really threatened me; enemies could still deal a bit more damage than I anticipated, but nothing I couldn't handle. The Moon was a bit nasty at first but a couple levels made all the difference. That's one thing I noticed during this playthrough: levels are very important in this game. Several times I would level up and find Cecil now dealt hundreds more damage in his standard attack, or now shrugged off attacks that previously took off a noticeable chunk of his HP. By the time I made it to the end of the Lunar Subterrane, nothing was really a threat any longer. So when I said before that FF4 was giving me a little trouble, I think it was just as simple as that I was underlevelled.

Looking forward to your final thoughts!

FelixSH · Mar 19, 2021

conchobhar said:
Ironically, you are probably playing the hardest version of the game (of the 2D incarnation— the 3D remake is its own beast). The American SNES version made a number of changes to simplify the game, which resulted in the removal of the Protect and Shell spells, the HP- and MP-boosting items, and each party member's secondary ability— for example, Yang can use Focus to miss a turn and deal double damage the next, which is useful against monsters that counterattack. None of this is really a big deal, though: the game is easy enough that Protect and Shell are inessential, and those secondary abilities are situational at best.

For my part, I think I had a slightly tougher time than you have been having, but even then it wasn't much. After the Magnetic Cave, nothing else really threatened me; enemies could still deal a bit more damage than I anticipated, but nothing I couldn't handle. The Moon was a bit nasty at first but a couple levels made all the difference. That's one thing I noticed during this playthrough: levels are very important in this game. Several times I would level up and find Cecil now dealt hundreds more damage in his standard attack, or now shrugged off attacks that previously took off a noticeable chunk of his HP. By the time I made it to the end of the Lunar Subterrane, nothing was really a threat any longer. So when I said before that FF4 was giving me a little trouble, I think it was just as simple as that I was underlevelled.

Looking forward to your final thoughts!

Really interesting. When I played the GBA version ten years ago, I was incredibly underleveled, when I reached Zeromus. Had to grind more than ten levels against blue and red dragons, if my memory isn't failing me. I think when Rydia learned Nuke, or whatever it's name was in that translation, I was finally able to survive Big Bang. But than, I remember the game being harder than it is, probably because I fled way too often. I was bad at JRPGs.

Specifically about Shell and Protect: I knew that there were some spells missing that I assumed to be a staple of FF. Really strange, how much there is missing in the SNES version. I get how taking abilities out of a game makes it look easier, but it takes away tools of the player. It's such a strange way of trying to make a game more accessible.

Thanks for reporting back, I find it very interesting that the GBA version isn't really as hard as I remember it being.

-----------------------------------------------

I will probably repeat thoughts, either from myself or from others. I actually have a bit of a hard time remembering which ones came from me and which ones came from posts of people here or in the old LP. Please know that, if that happens, it's just that I agree with your thought.

Before I forget, I want to thank everyone again for responding and posting their thoughts. It makes the whole project way more interesting, and I'm always excited to see someone else post here.

Hmmm, let's start with the playable characters:

Cecil
I think I agree with Peko here, my opinion of him isn't very high. Well, I enjoyed his journey during the first have of the game (up to, and including, the sacrifice of the twins). I think he starts out well - his level mirrors his experience, he isn't a random mook or farmboy, but an experienced agent of an Empire, he is trapped between his loyalty to his king and the fact that said king became corrupted. That's very cool stuff, especially in comparison with the NES trilogy.
The only thing I don't like about him is how he treats Rosa. Thinking back, he saves her live, but he never considers her an equal partner, always more like a treasure he can't bare to lose. He never wants her to come along, as early as when she recovers from her illness in the desert town. It's the kind of chivalry that I just can't stand anymore, and it throws a bad light at him. Especially considering that he has no trouble taking the twins along.
With Rydia it feels slightly different, as she is hunted by the Barons soldiers, and there just are no other warriors to be found, who could protect her. And I imagine that, when they meet scary monsters, he tries to keep himself between them and her (as she is supposed to be in the back row), but he can't just let her stay in a corner. He needs to be by his side, and I imagine she would, of her own volition, cast her spells to help, or just because she is afraid. Maybe that's a generous reading, but I feel here, it works.
As I mentioned, I really like how this leader of a group of soldiers, is now tasked with protecting a bunch of physically weaker people. His powers are offensive, but he still has to find a way to not let Rydia, Tellah, Rosa and Edward die. The twins too, technically, but half the time he can't help, and they are obviously excited to blast the hell out of any zombie.
But all that goes away after the return to Baron. Well, maybe not all - in the cave of the Dark Elf, he finally loses his ability to do damage (I'll just ignore that he could use bows, due to them being Rosas weapon of choice, they feel like the game wants you to use Cecil as the pure healer of the group, completely contrary to his place in said group to this date.
But then it ends. The group in general gets more stagnant and less interesting, and together with the story, there isn't much changing anymore. And Cecil just...stops being a character. I guess there is the part at the end, where he learns that Golbez is his brother (that he is half alien doesn't matter to him at all, it seems). But even that is just a little bit at the very end, I don't feel like it matters much.
I feel like the game implys that Cecil never really gets over his attack on Mysidia, and is tormented by it for the rest of the game. This also fits with his character portrait, which always shows him looking downwards. I guess that makes kind of sense - he probably feels that he is partly at fault for everything the party has to face, until they kill Zeromus. It reminds me a bit of how Cloud is shown to be mopey in all the extra material for FF VII, despite him becoming an active, likeable dork at the end. Cecil never does. He never gets over his shame. Dunno, I feel like there should be more, but there isn't. Like with many instances, this game feels like they were still feeling their way through how a story driven game works, and ran out of stuff at the halfway point. And Cecil stops becoming a character, and ist just there.

Kain
Why is Kain so popular? I'm not judging, it is just confusing to me. He is shown to be rough and unlikable (I never got over how he tried to kidnap Rydia against her will, after he helped, unwillingly as it was, destroying her home town and killing her mother), he is easily corruptable, due to his feelings for Rosa and he just seems to miss willpower? I guess?
Kain feels a bit like a dark mirror to Cecil, before the end, when that role is taken up by Golbez. They both are orphans and had the same chances. But Kain is obviously jealous of his best friend, partly because Cecil achieved a higher rank, but also because he and Rosa are a couple. And while Cecil tries to become a better person, Kain just becomes more and more corrupted.
The mind control takes away part of the intensity, and feels like it resolves him of his guilt. As conchobhar mentioned, this was done better with Leon in FF II, despite him being nearly a non-entity during the whole game. But there is no mind control. Leon is just greedy for power, and Kain would have had enough motivation to switch sides, due to his jealousy. The game clearly indicates, that the only reason why Kain is able to be mind controlled IS that he has this darkness inside him, but still. It weakens the story, by absolving Kain at least partly of his responsibility.
Another thing that burned itself into my memory is, how he actually treats Rosa when she is kidnapped. He, too, views her just as a possession to have, not as a person. I don't remember the details, but I remember him being plain cruel to the woman he loves. I just don't find any positive qualities in Kain, and absolutely dislike him as a character.
I'm also not quite sure what the game tries to say, with him and with Golbez. Are they inherently flawed, and therefore receptive for mind control? Why not control Cecil? Because he is so pure inside, because he has the soul of a Paladin? I feel like the game argues that you are either inherently flawed, and therefor fallable, or you aren't, which makes you immune to evil vices.
So, uh, second character I don't particularly like. Don't worry, it gets better, but first, let me get the third jerk out of the way.

Tellah
I don't think that I have anything new to say about him. I do like, that he realized at the end that his anger cost him his life, in a pointless way. And I feel like this means, that the game argues that he is in the wrong, for the whole time. Whenever he is in the party, he is there for his own goals, and we are just useful to him. I mean, fair enough, he is useful for us too. We don't need to be friends, as long as we work well together.
But I think the game clearly judges his behaviour. Everything he does, is does for Anna and revenge. He might accidentally help others (like Cecil, when he protects Rydia at the start), but the reasons are always faulty. Edward hasn't earned his anger, and the game knows this.
Which is fine. Characters don't have to be perfect. I don't like Tellah, but I like his story. And I love that Square took one of the most powerful classes of FF III, and made it into this character, who seems powerful at the start, but soon shows his age. It's very well realized.

Rosa
I'm not sure what to say about Rosa, except that I really like her. Part of that is her design - her hair looks like the one from Sailor Jupiter, which makes me immediately like her. She is also shown to be the adult in the relationship (by trying to get Cecil to talk about what happened in Mysidia), and she tries her best to protect the group, which she does very well. She is a great White Mage. And, if you have a good bow and good arrows, she is a pretty competent damage dealer as well. From a gamplay perspective, there is nothing I can say against her.
But the game doesn't treat her like her own character. She does what she does for Cecil, including her whole career as a White Mage, and is used as a McGuffin to motivate Cecil. The game seems to imply a bit of a relationship with Rydia, but there isn't much there. Rosa exists to help others, but not as her own character, and that's a shame.

Rydia
I love Rydia. Part of that is just that she is very powerful. She was always my favourite character in the game, just because Summoners are great.
But I do like that she has an arc. I'm not sure it is that well made - it feels like we see the first half, and the second half happens between Leviathans attack and her helping us against Golbez, when he nearly killed everyone. But what we see is a girl that is horribly traumatized, and who has to grow up way too fast. But she is also very powerful, and develops her power at a fast rate.
I feel like there should be more there, but I'm at a loss. I don't care about her implied relationship with Edge, or whatever that was, because I don't care about Edge. And, while I like her coming back grown up as a twist, it also feels kind of irrelevant? I never thought about this, but it doesn't fulfill any real purpose, right?
I guess it is less an arc. There is no goal for her there. She just loses her mother and home, and then develops her powers, because she doesn't want to die. But the game doesn't even give her motivation to go against Golbez, or even end the war. Huh. There actually doesn't seem to be much there. Which is pretty problematic, considering that the other female character of the final party has even less agenda than her, and all three guys get arcs. Even the loser that joins at the end.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. *sigh*

Edward
Similar to Tellah, I don't have much to say about him that I didn't already say. I think Edward is a very well done character, and I find it pretty annoying how is treated like a useless loser. He fights alongside seasoned warriors, even stays his ground alongside Cecil and Yang, which, come on, this is pretty great. He KNOWS that he isn't a fighter, unlike all the others (Tellah at least was a great mage, and has probably a lot of experience fighting monsters, and Rydia is just straight up more powerful than him). But he still comes along, he still helps, and that makes him the bravest of the cast. Maybe except for Rydia and the twins. They are children, after all. But you know what I mean. Edward should get way more credit than he does.
Also, I want to repeat that the scene during the night was very touching, more than any other scene up to now.

Cid
I don't know much to say about him. There isn't much character development, but I do like that he has this long history with Cecil, Kain and Rosa. When he says he wanted to see Cecils and Rosas children, it made the world grow a bit, to show that there is more than this war going on, and that these people have a history. He is a great, fun side-character, and I enjoyed having him around.

Yang
As I mentioned at one point, Yang feels like he is only a side character in this story, but that this one is clearly not his. He is a guest, he helps, but he is already full formed and just adds his great help. He feels a bit like these old mentor characters, who help the hero along the way, but goes away later on. It probably helps that he has a wive that clearly loves him. We don't see much of her, but she feels pretty well done. But whatever Yangs own story was (and part of why I like him is, that he feels like there is a lot of story and adventure to him), it has already been told, just not to us. He, too, makes this world feel bigger, like there is more going on than the adventures of Cecil and Friends.

Palom and Porom
These two were fun. Not much more, but they did that pretty well. There is not much to say about them, except that I really enjoyed their personalities, and how they played off each other. I bought their sacrifice - they are well realized as kids, who are powerful enough to actually go on a dangerous journey and just don't care. "We have to sacrifice ourselves? Sure, we are all in!"

Golbez
Uh...to be honest, I find him really weird. I feel like the whole twist hurts him, and his personality. Maybe it would have worked out better, if the game had tried a bit harder toshow that he isn't just this horribly evil monster of a person. I dunno, he is this super-powerful wizard up to the end, when we get more information about him, but it is all mixed with the whole infodump about aliens and KluYa, and that there is actually another evil guy behind him, who controlled him.
I feel like he should be effective, but wasn't really, for some reason? He felt too cartoony, with his Evil Lair scenes, and the tied up Rosa. He is over-the-top, until he isn't. Similar to the rest of the story, he feels split in two halves that don't quite work together. I feel the natural comparison is the Emperor from FF II, and that guy still feels better done than Golbez.
There might be additional material, or other translations, that make this clearer and give more context, but to me, that he and Cecil are brothers feels like a twist for twists sake. Like, they needed some story stuff for the end, and that was where they landed on. It really didn't work for me. Too little, too late.

Edge
Why is he below Golbez? Because I nearly forgot about him. I don't care for his personality, and, while he has a character arc and I like the "fight" with his parents, he comes so late that he doesn't feel like part of the core group. Also, how does this guy have more of an arc than Rosa and Rydia (this is a rethoric question)?
I did find him pretty useful and strong in combat, and he did more damage than Cecil, up to the last dungeon. The game also was easy enough, so that keeping him alive was no problem.
But that is all the positive stuff I have to say about him. Too late, too stupid, too gross (can we not imply that he and Rydia have a thing for each other, please?). I might be able to find something more interesting to say about him, but I honestly don't care in the slightest for this guy.

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I feel like there is something structurally unsatisfying about FF IV to me. I understand that other people see this very differently, but like everything else, this are just my thoughts. If you feel different, that's totally valid too. To mention it one last time, it feels like it is split in two halve, one before the return to Baron, and one after. And the second half feels weird.

Specifically the Underground feels like filler to me. Full stop. I feel like you could take that out (including Edge) and just make the whole part with the Moon longer and more in-depth. There is just nothing there, storywise. Yes, there are some dungeons, but one of them is the worst in the game, and you visit the other three times (granted, different parts of it, but it still felt unsatisfying to me).

I would have prefered to go to the Moon immediately, and make that a bigger place. Give me a real town there, and story stuff. Let me start exploring the relationship between Golbez and Cecil from the start of the second half, and tell me more about Golbez's past, and also about KluYa. I would have loved to explore this in more detail, and maybe get someone from that alien race as a final party member. Or let me just keep Yang, that works too. But there would have been possibilities here to extend the story part of the game, and maybe play around a bit more with new party compositions. Maybe split up the party, and give them aid from aliens as party members?

But I guess that is a lot to ask. I understand that this was the first game, where they tried to go big with their story, and they succeeded in many ways. Demanding more seems unfair. It's a good game, and these problems are likely at least partly just mine.

-----------------------------------

Hmm, I think that's all. Gameplay wise, there isn't that much to say that I haven't talked about already. It's an easy game, it gives you set groups with fitting encounters, it combines mechanics with characters VERY well. The dungeon design came a long, long way, the places look like real dungeons now. And, while I don't care much for the Underground, that you have a three-world-structure is pretty neat. I assume it was amazing, back in the day, when you realized that there was a whole, second world down there.

Mechanically, the game does a lot of things very right, and it is extremely well balanced, it feels. Or maybe not, considering how easy it is.

That all said, this one probably stays my least favourite FF. I got more out of playing the three NES games, at least. If I need a simple game (which FF IV would also be), FF I is right there, and it's even simpler. FF II is mechanically more interesting, and FF III is just so joyfull, compared to the sad, dark story of IV.

I did enjoy playing it, and I can appreciate it a lot better now. Therefore, I'm very happy to have given it another shot. But, unlike the NES games, I'm not sure if I will come back to this one.

-----------------------------------------

Well, that's it. Thanks again for reading and commenting. I'll take a bit more of a break, and then will start with the SNES version of FF V. I'm very, very much looking forward to it, and have already made a plan for which classes to use for which character...which I'll just post now, because why not:

Bartz: Blue Mage → Dancer
Lenna: Knight → Summoner → Beastmaster
Galuf: Monk → Berserker(?) → Geomancer → Bard
Faris: Thief → Chemist

See you in one or two weeks!

Torzelbaum · Mar 20, 2021

FelixSH said:
Enemy design in general didn't stand out to me much, thinking about it. In FF II and III, I always found single monsters that looked especially great, but here, I didn't. No idea if this is due to less interesting desing [sic] (I can't believe it would be this) or just that everything is more detailed, and nothing sticks out as especially good?

Maybe it's the former. I think 4 has some good enemy designs. But I played FF4 when it was first released on SNES so I only had FF1 to compare to and maybe that is skewing my perspective.

My favorite enemy designs from 4 are:
(Is it) FlameDog and IceBeast
Centaur Knight

Some other enemy designs that I like (which usually includes the palette swaps):
Lamia, Hydra, Draculady / VampGirl, Swordman, Grudger, ghosts, "giant robots", Baron Guard, Sorcerer, Ogre, Evil Mask, Sword Rat, turtles, Black Liz(ard), "serpentine dragons", "dragon skeletons"

Boss designs that I like:
Mist Dragon, Antlion (Worry not - it's tame), Mom Bomb, MiLon Z, (giant) Golbez, EvilWall, Odin, D. Lunar

FelixSH said:
Hmmm, let's start with the playable characters:

Why did you exclude poor FuSoYa?

Zef · Mar 20, 2021

Torzelbaum said:
Why did you exclude poor FuSoYa?

Because Zeromus mopped the floor with him.

On THAT note, Brick saved all our photoshops!

FelixSH · Mar 20, 2021

Considering that I nearly forgot Edge, I'm not surprised that I forgot about FuSoYa. I had planned to make a joke, about him being my favorite mop.

But seriously, I wouldn't have had much to say about him. The whole moon-people stuff feels so underdeveloped and condensed, with FuSoYa being mainly there to dump exposition. Meeting him IS cool, as is the moon in general, though. But as a sage, he is underwhelming, and I don't think he has anything that could be called personality? Am I already forgetting something?

Zef · Mar 20, 2021

Nah, FuSoYa is cool when you're 10 and you're dazzled by the bearded Spock with the camel-cased name and his immediate access to level-3 spells and beyond when your mages are probably still doing level-2s. He's useful to have as a second Wall-caster against Bahamut, and as an additional healer/damage dealer, but he never gets the chance to reach the heights Rosa and Rydia do. And as a character in a narrative, he's just there to do exposition and magically wipe Zemus's control of Golbez. He's not even a walking plot device, he's a narrative shortcut.

He still looks cool and has a cool name though.

RT-55J · Mar 20, 2021

Say what you want about FuSoYa, but his contributions to the Super Mario World hacking community are foundational. What a legend.

4-So · Mar 20, 2021

I was 11 when I first played FF2 US, a few months after it was released, and I was absolutely captivated. I had played nothing like it, didn't suspect anything like it was even possible. It's hard to put into words the kind of mark it made on me and how I would have likely ignored the entire RPG genre - at least until FF7, which seems to have its own gravitational pull - if not for Cecil and Co.'s exploits. It was a stunning work that left me gobsmacked and entranced in that special way good media can. So I guess take the next paragraph with a grain of salt.

I think FF4's relative simplicity re: storyline is a benefit rather than a detriment. To me, it is the last FF game that felt like a fantasy, which is to say, a fairytale (even if FF5 comes close and FF9 makes overtures). I'm a big fan of fairytale-style stories, where there is a kind of frankness that betrays an elegance underneath, eschewing complication and thickness for something more primal and immediate. Striking the tone of a fable is not the only way to tell a story by any means, and the narratives of FF games eventually go to many different tonal places, but "a simple story, simply told" works for me here, with all of its surface-level light/dark dichotomy, damsels in distress, mustache twirling, and man-behind-the-curtain-isms. It feels like something out of storybook, like something the Grimm brothers would have concocted, albeit something more long form compared to the shortness of those stories. Still, when taking the fairytale view, I think some of FF4s "narrative proclivities", especially in relation to its characters, become more understandable and palatable. In any case, that's the way I've chosen to engage with it. YMMV, as always.

Lokii · Mar 20, 2021

The way I see FuSoYa articulate is one that I think gets lost when you only look at his as a gameplay element, that is how effective of a party member is he. 4's strict party structure means you get FuSoYa when you get him and so comparing his to say, Yang, is irrelevant. (And I want to be clear I'm not trying to accuse anyone here of doing that, I just mean in general about how we usually talk about these games). Instead, we can look at how he appears in the experience of the game. He comes with the introduction to this, frankly, incredible moment when you get to fly to the moon. He gives you the true cosmic backstory of what's going on and elevates the game to Final Fantasy proportions. This is the moment in 1 when you go to the floating temple and everything's all computery. That is to say, Final Fantasy has always been more than dragons and magic, and that 4 is continuing and reaffirming that identity. That FoSoYa get's to be a playable character gives this emphasis. It elevates this aspect of the story. FuSoYa gets cools spells, even though they aren't efficient, they get to be big and different and preview of what you can obtain. He's mysterious and weird and otherwordly. He is a mop. This all gives this aspect of Final Fantasy's unique identity emphasis, and at the same time is 4's unique expression of it.

Plus he is a mop.

MetManMas · Mar 20, 2021

Gameplay-wise, FuSoYa is basically Tellah with slightly less crappy MP reserves. Think he even has the stats-go-down levelling quirk.

Story-wise, he's Mr. Exposition. "Your dad was from space, your big bro's been Force-brainwashed by the creepy old Sith in the moon." Then he unbrainwashes Golbez and you get to watch them defeat the final boss's first form before the second form stomps them into the ground and the Power of Friendship and your party saves the day.

ThricebornPhoenix · Mar 20, 2021

conchobhar said:
Several times I would level up and find Cecil now dealt hundreds more damage in his standard attack, or now shrugged off attacks that previously took off a noticeable chunk of his HP.

That would be attack and defense multipliers at work, I reckon. I've noticed Cecil is usually at just the right level when I get the Deathbringer/Black sword that the bonus STR and AGI boost his attack multiplier from 3 to 5, as if being the only weapon in the game to inflict instant death wasn't enough! When someone levels and gains a multiplier, you generally notice the effect, which is great. Level gains aren't usually so impactful, especially in later Final Fantasy games.

Swapping around various stat-boosting items to get the best overall damage/defense is... not fun, exactly, but I do enjoy it. The stat system is one of my favorite things about FFIII and IV.

Lokii said:
He comes with the introduction to this, frankly, incredible moment when you get to fly to the moon.

This really can't be overstated. After all those hours of mostly kitchen-sink fantasy tropes, you go to the MOON and get a MOON ALIEN in your party! No other Final Fantasy has this. You get some party members who are later revealed to have some weird origin, which is usually framed in a more tragic light (see: Cecil, in this very game!), and some animal people, but... the only thing that comes close to matching that feeling of awe is getting the legendary T.G. Cid in FFT.

FuSoYa also has White/Holy, which Tellah doesn't get even when he remembers all of his old spells. Some Sage he was!

MetManMas said:
Gameplay-wise, FuSoYa is basically Tellah with slightly less crappy MP reserves. Think he even has the stats-go-down levelling quirk.

According to this chart, his base stats are completely static up to 70. Apparently his MP actually starts to increase if you manage to gain a bunch of levels with him somehow. Still not good for a dedicated ~~mop~~ mage, sadly. Just doesn't clean up as much as you'd expect.

Peklo · Mar 20, 2021

MetManMas said:
Gameplay-wise, FuSoYa is basically Tellah with slightly less crappy MP reserves. Think he even has the stats-go-down levelling quirk.

He does not, and what he does have in its place is one of the most interesting things about him: level-ups don't boost his stats at all, but neither do they diminish them as with Tellah. He is the previous wizened man's analogue in mechanical function, down to co-opting an unusual interaction with genre conventions like levels, but it's not a hollow repeat of an earlier hit, as his rendition communicates something else altogether: where Tellah's advanced age was the mark of his mortality with his body and mind increasingly failing him, Fusoya's inability to grow mirrors his people's long slumber and the evolutionary plateau that he represents. He is ancient and not affected adversely by that fact, but neither does he have anything more to offer beyond first impressions--rather exactly summing up the character as a whole.

MetManMas · Mar 20, 2021

My mistake, it's been a while since I played through the game. Thought for sure he had some stat drops...Oh well.

RT-55J · Mar 20, 2021

After level 70, the game switches from its normal stat growth formulas to giving each character a pseudo-random stat changes (from a set of 8 different possibilities per character), meaning that from that point on every character has the chance of gaining or losing stats (to differing degrees).

For instance, here's the table of Edward's possible stat changes post level 70 (taken from this FAQ):

Code:

    -----------------------
    | \Str|Agi|Sta|Int|Spi|
    |1/ -1| -1| -1| -1| -1|
    |2\ -1| -1| -1| -1| -1|
    |3/ -1|  0| -1| -1| -1|
    |4\ -1|  0| -1| -1| -1|
    |5/ +1| +1|  0| +1| +1|
    |6\  0| +2| +2| +2|  0|
 -->|7/ +3| +3|  0|  0| +3|<--
 -->|8\ +4|  0| +4| +4| +4|<--
    -----------------------

If you're willing to save scum while grinding to get one of those last two rows, then Edward will have the best stat growth in the late game (this only matters in the GBA port, of course).

(The DS version does something completely different here that I haven't bothered looking into.)

I'm playing through all of Final Fantasy, and everyone is invited (Playing Lightning Returns now)

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