Ahead On Our Way - The Top 21 Numbered Final Fantasies Countdown

JBear said:

That said, my vote was for the Famicom version, and only the Famicom version. I think the DS version is significantly worse with some real design missteps (and I resent how it unfairly poisoned the well against the FC version, as well as created some stubbornly persistent misconceptions about how the original game works), and I think the Pixel Remaster is "fine" insofar as it got a lot of people to play *some* version of this game who would never have otherwise, but I think that version loses a lot of the charm, and is far too easy/frictionless, not to mention that the facelifts to both versions obfuscate some of the explicit links to FF4 & 5 that I adored so much, and it really bums me out how few series fans have experienced that original, excellent game.

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I literally can't think of one single remake of any game ever (non-Resident Evil, but there it feels more like just adding a new entry to the series) that hasn't felt like a step down to me. Particularly with RPGs, there's a weird sort of charm inherent to older hardware that always gets lost (plus you can only fit so much game on a famicom cart, so it's unlikely to see some ridiculously long game or bosses needing more precious RAM slots to hold a stupidly large HP value). So the going is slow from because I just haven't had gaming time generally, but I'm really enjoying playing through 2 in its original form, and excited about continuing to 3. Even the DS version has some appeal, but yeah, I really want the raw unfiltered experience. Seems good.

Also this whole thread is starting to make me feel guilty on my series completion.

As far as I see it, III and IV's conclusions (and beyond) are all part of the same iterative process that the original's Chaos Shrine and II's Jade Passage/Pandaemonium laid down--common elements are shared, reapplied and adjusted over and over. All have a distinct character in their specifics but really clearly showcase a creative voice finding its signatures along the way.

Patrick said:

I’ve only played the 3D remake. Looking forward to playing the Pixel remaster.

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I'm so happy they've finally announced console ports for these.

Eternal Winds: Original > Dissida > DS> Pixel Remaster.

I'll go to bat for the Lightning Returns street busker performance--in either language.

I really like the XIV version in ARR.

Juno said:

I really like the XIV version in ARR.

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XIV owes a *huge* part of its lore to XIV III. There are, like, at least two other versions of Eternal Wind in later expansions.

Anyway, next entry!

Positronic Brain said:

XIV owes a *huge* part of its lore to XIV

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Stands to reason.

Released on March 13, 2003 (Japan)
Producer: Yoshinori Kitase
Director: Motomu Toriyama
Composers: Noriko Matsueda and Takahito Eguchi

Back on its day, the announcement of this game made waves. It wasn’t only that this was the first direct sequel to a main Final Fantasy game ever, or that it would feature an all female cast, or that it was ejecting all the mechanics from X to become its own thing. No, the really controversial thing was a jump action. Wild. Cats-and-dogs-lying-together level stuff. No wonder the internet broke in half.

The game itself was a bit of a contradiction - while the story picked up from where X left (with X characters Yuna and Rikku joiing newcomer Paine in an exploration of a post-Sin Spira while chasing the trail of a figure whom Yuna believes is Tidus), the battle systems and mechanics were the antithesis to X. CTB was ejected in favor of a really fast implementation of ATB which incorporated a job system that encouraged in-battle job switching, and the linear storytelling of X was replaced by a map where almost all locations were open and accessible from the get-go, with a non-linear mission-based system. So if you’re ejecting all the mechanics of its predecessor, why bother to make it a direct sequel?

To have a fun time, of course.

X-2’s atmosphere is a lot more carefree than X, now that the unstoppable Apocalypse beast that was stomping on Spira for the last thousand years is no more, so the battle system and the story reflect that. It has its moments of seriousness, but it takes a much more, say, fabulous approach to things. Yuna, Rikku and Paine are having fun, most of the time, and the player is invited to join. The story does get a bit too anime for my tastes, but who cares, I’m beating monsters while Paine is dressed in an Elvis jumpsuit.

The game sets two important precedents - not only was it Ok to have direct sequels, it also became almost expected for these sequels to fool around with their parents' gameplay to create something entirely different,

Another dangerous precedent? The requirements to get 100% in this game and get the secret ending are obscure to the point of frustration. At least 100% completion would not be a requirement for the best ending in future games, but the obscure mechanical requirements would be revisited by at least one future installment. Thankfully we are not here to get Yuna a date at the end, but just to show her that it’s OK to have fun playing dress-up with the friends you make along the way.

Something Old

The Job System and ATB made a glorious return to the series with this entry, with special tweaks to make it feel faster and dynamic, as the series continued evolving away from their languid-paced roots of turn-based battles. Watching the job system in their 3D rendered glory (with in-battle switching, no less) was really spectacular.

Something New

The open world and mission based progression was completely new for a series that up to this point had been identified with a strict story-based progression. While it had played around with giving some non-linear freedom before, this was the first time a main game was designed around it.

Oh, and the job system was also unique. All the jobs got a very care-free redesign to fit with the mood of the game, so instead of the medieval and Amano inspired designs and the usual jbs, we got pop-inspired costumes and traditional jobs like Gambler and Bard got a thematically appropriate update and became Lady Luck and Songtress.

Something Blew

We got pop-inspired costumes and jobs like Mascot and Songtress. The job system would never look or be this fabulous, and some jobs like Gun Mage and Mascot would never be seen again as such, although this approach to the job system would later be picked up by Lightning Returns.

Score

3 / 3 gal pals

Johnny Unusual said:

Stands to reason.

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Uh, I don't know what happened there. That's not what I wrote. I'm not glitching! You are!

It's been a while but I remember enjoying X-2. It's a lot slighter and feels unnecessary in the bigger narrative but it's fun, has a Team Rocket and it's nice to see a more fun version of Yuna.

Ah, yes, forgot to mention the Leblanc Syndicate.


No, wait, these guys.

There's a reason why the Time Bokan villain trope is so often imitated - it works.

Leblanc is also my main gripe about X-2: female character designs are a lot more sexualized than in X. I can give them a pass because they also manage to empower the girls somewhat, but, man, just how much tape is Leblanc using to keep that constume up?

Positronic Brain said:

Leblanc is also my main gripe about X-2: female character designs are a lot more sexualized than in X.

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I don't think such a shift actually occurred; if anything they remained consistent. X is notoriously leering in its camerawork and direction that's always glued to the women's (and girls', considering the subjects' ages) breasts and butts, only accentuated by the attire choices given to them--Rikku is 15 and gets introduced ass-first twice over (the second time through lavish FMV) whether you're presented with leather straps or microshorts. You have the Al Bhed whose pre-eminent aesthetic is BDSM apparel, or minor-major characters like Dona or Yunalesca who walk around in literal thongs. I always wondered what was going on with the game in this regard, and it may at least partly be because one of the artists and character designers on it was one Shunya Yamashita, who's done other video game work since but is mostly known as a nerd interests pin-up artist. I wouldn't lay the blame on one person alone, but evidently the team effort involved folks who went on to careers in derivative erotica so that's what the visual legacy resembles too.

As for X-2, I like it a lot as a recontextualization of development assets and their insightful repurposing for thematic ends--maybe not on the level of a Majora's Mask, but respectably close. The rerun of so much of Spira's environments and its denizens doesn't register as forced when the game deals so heavily in a society finding its footing again, or unsure of where to take those steps in the first place; all the previously familiar locales in quiet flux reflect that uncertainty about the direction of a world that was only defined by encroaching and inexplicable death for so long prior.

It also doesn't sound like any other game in the series, thanks to Matsueda and Eguchi. The two rank among the least recognized composers in Square's catalogue despite their relatively prolific period until both departed the company after this game, with X-2 remaining Matsueda's final composing work to this day. I don't think it's the standout score for either of them, but it's also stylistically apart from anything else the series had or has attempted since, lending the game a character it would not have otherwise had and considering all the regurgitation happening otherwise, probably needed.

I had so, so much fun with X-2. In addition to the whole carefree, fast-moving vibe, the battle system absolutely clicked for me - which wasn't at all a sure thing as I sometimes find faster systems intimidating and prefer to have more time to make decisions. But even though I can't entirely put my finger on why, this one just worked and felt fantastic. You can always tell how much I enjoy a battle system by how far I play into optional content, and for X-2 I did like two or three NG+ runs, collected all the optional equipment, and stomped all the super-bosses. Good times. Also loved the music, and while the plot could be a bit meandering and, yes, sometimes a bit extra-anime, it too was generally a fun ride. Made a lot more sense than XIII-2 at any rate.

I like a lot about FFX-2. I tried really hard to not be a knee-jerk reactionary towards the game, even though I think as a follow up, it actively undermines the brilliance of its predecessor. Being a game about women, it most charitably falls in the "An attempt was made" category - what with the creative staff being almost exclusively Japanese salarymen. The combat system is an interesting inflection on the traditional job system, though I'd be lying if I said it was more interesting/engaging than X's combat. Centering the story mechanics around bite-sized missions is a curious precursor to a mobile-friendly gaming. But gating the best ending behind a bullshit, easy-to-mess-up, 100% completion is the easiest way to piss me off and put you on my forever enemies list.

X-2 is the game that completely solidified my love of the ATB system. As I went backward through the PS games finding that ATB got faster than where I started, X-2 coming out with some of the snappiest yet and the system being built to allow actions to occur while other actions were still resolving, and that making a difference, kinda blew my mind. I know on a technical level the XIII games are even more polished about that, but X-2 was still my favorite battle system in the franchise until VII Remake finally came out.

There's so much I love about what it does exploring how Yuna and the world are moving on from the end of X. Seeing how Yuna especially basically exploded out of her shell, bucking the systems that used her hooked me right the hell in immediately. Getting up to such sincerely silly shenanigans right from the start was such an uplifting and exciting feeling coming off the previous game's oppressive tone. I just wish it leaned harder into exploring the societal changes and upheaval rather than giving us another world-ending scenario.

It's one of the few FF games that I enjoy going back to on a whim just for its own sake.

The thing that makes it hard to see FFX-2's longest ending isn't getting 100%—you can do that pretty easily as a natural outcome of a New Game+ run. There are more than 100% available, so once you start accumulating completion percentages from mutually exclusive events you can absolutely get there naturally with relatively thorough exploration. And the game is definitely designed for multiple runs with its nonlinear world, numerous missables, mutually exclusive events, and robust job system that you'll only scratch the surface of in one playthrough.

So, while 100% should be accessible to anyone who does NG+ (and honestly that's probably the best way to think of the longest ending—as a NG+ easter egg), the actual barrier to the longest ending that it requires a totally unprompted series of button inputs during an endgame cutscene! It's not hard to execute, but you're going to need to check a guide, unless you just mash buttons during every cutscene to see if it does something.

In any case, it's a very fun game! I'd definitely recommend just playing blind and seeing what you find unless you always like to follow a guide anyway. If you want to see the longest ending and NG+ run doesn't sound fun, just look up it up on YouTube. If you want to see the longest ending and NG+ run does sound fun, look up when to start pressing buttons during a cutscene, because that's going to be the reason you'll miss it.

estragon said:

If you want to see the longest ending and NG+ run doesn't sound fun, just look up it up on YouTube.

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That wasn't an option in 2003, three years before YouTube was even a thing.

All the "Spira and FFVII's Planet are connected???" stuff via Shinra and other small allusions always seemed like something to set theorycrafters off instead of being anything meaningful, but it is interesting to think about how the throughline starting from VII went on to inform a branch of FF stylistically and developmentally through the presence of recurring key creatives like Toriyama, Nojima, Watanabe or Nomura, going into the Xs, into the XIIIs, and now looping back to VII via the Remake series. It's just about the most cogent evolution the series has had in the modern age thanks to so many of the same people continuing to be involved, dealing with recurring and mutating design elements. My favourite "it's referencing what" bit in X-2 is the optional boss King VERMIN! which is named after a bit of dialogue Barret slings President Shinra's way early in VII, of all possible things.

10-2 is fantastic. Just give a listen to that peppy upbeat battle music.

While it's a hell of a thing to type "the garment grid is a fantastic system" I really do dig the formality of "if you are in job X, you are in job X, with stats to match and just the portion of that job's abilities you have unlocked" BUT with the flexibility that each character can customize a small set of jobs to switch between mid-combat. And I like the obligatory big splashy super jobs we have since story wise the whole point is summoners are no longer a thing requiring a character to cycle through their whole set. Makes it a conscious choice requiring commitment and time and not just a cheese move.

I had Final Fantasy III at #10 (of 11), but don't take that as a slight: my list was purely games I liked, so the emphasis is still on "top" here. I put off playing FF3 for years, because I wasn't sure if I'd take to a raw, unadorned (ie: not remade) NES RPG — given the stories about how difficult and unforgiving it could be — but when Felix's FF playthrough thread got to it, I figured I'd give it a shot, too. I had a great time with it! Turns out it really isn't that tough (even the infamous final dungeon gauntlet isn't as bad as it sounds, if you take it in stages), and it's bursting with creativity and charm. The job system, though unlike any of its later incarnations, is really fun here, functioning more like a puzzle-solving tool: when walled by a particularly tough challenge, switch the party over to a different set of jobs more suited to the situation. I agree that it's the first game that feels decidedly "like Final Fantasy", so it's a really important game in the evolution of the series identity and I'm glad I played it for that alone. Really, the only reason it lands in the lower part of my list is that… well, as someone who largely plays RPGs for the characters (not the stories as such), FF3 starring a quad of empty vessels keeps me at a bit of a distance from it. It's a great game, just one that's not tuned to my specific sensibilities to make it an absolute favourite. Hey, who knows, maybe the DS remake be up my alley!

Meanwhile, X-2 was my #9. This comes low in my ranking mostly because I had a bit of a hard time getting my head around the non-linear, mission-based structure, which made my playthrough a bit awkward and — due to resorting to a guide to get the direction I needed — a bit unsatisfying But it does a lot I really like, too. Just the concept alone is a winner to me; I love the idea of a sequel that’s not about some new conflict but simply the people and the world grappling with the fallout of the last one — like a full-length epilogue. I like, too, that it’s a tonal shift from its predecessor, and how that contrast makes them both feel stronger (Yuna’s change from shy and reserved to outgoing — or at least trying to be outgoing —, is a story in itself). And this incarnation of the ATB is just superb: lightning fast, yes, but the way actions can interrupt other actions makes timing of commands and the length of actions relevant finally, and the mid-battle job changes is so much fun. Mechanically it’s the obvious forerunner to XIII’s system, so it always confuses me a little when people pine for more X-2 and ignore the game that’s right there… but I digress.

X-2 is one of the few post-PS1 entries I’d consider to be in contention for being my favourite of the series.

Released on December 17, 19888 (Japan)
Producer: Masafumi Miyamoto
Director: Hironobu Sakaguchi
Composers: Nobuo Uematsu

So what do you do when your NES game becomes a hit? You make a sequel! Just remember that by NES law, the sequel to your game has to be radically different to the original.

Well, to be fair, II was still a RPG where numbers went up, but since the series wasn’t a series yet everything was up for grabs, and II is very different from I. Gone are levels and XP - instead your four characters level up according to how often they use a skill: attack often and strength will go up; use a spell a lot to make it stronger; get hit often to increase HP, or dodge often to get your agility up. You get the idea.

Also gone? Jobs. Instead of choosing your characters’ class at the beginning, your four characters start with nearly identical stats and it’s how you use them what will eventually set them apart - if you want to make Maria a sword-wielding fighter, go ahead!

Ah, yes, names. Characters in II are pre-defined and while the game doesn’t give you defaults they have canon names, a first for the series! Also a first for the series, an encompassing story revolving around our heroes, with a surprise twist on the fate of the villain - Emperor Mattheus is conquering the world and only you and your band of friends can stop him. Ok, so you one of your mates went missing at the battle at the beginning of the game but surely that’s not important, just rush along and make sure to poke the Emperor with a sword, pointy-end first, that will surely stop him.

Also new, a password system. No, not that kind of password. Talking to NPCs would sometimes give you words that you could add to your inventory and then use with other NPCs to advance the story.

As you can see II has lots of new ideas and almost no room for old ones, which is why it ended up so different from its predecessor. Some people think this is because Kawazu had a larger hand in this game but I don't have evidence of that, he was one of three game designers, so I guess maybe they were just really having fun trying new ideas. But Kawazu certainly liked experimenting because he would continue to try any mechanic that sounded fun in his own series of games in the future, while Final Fantasy III would become more like I and set the template for the series going on.

Anyhow, II is really divisive, precisely because it’s so different. It also doesn’t help that some mechanics are either half cooked, exploitable and/or buggy (like how you can cancel an attack to level up strength, or how stats can decrease if you don’t use them, something so frustrating they removed it from every port after the original release). However it’s it being so different what also gives it its unique charm.

By the way, this game inaugurated the Final Fantasy multimedia empire - Kenji Terada, scenario writer of the first three Final Fantasii, wrote an adaptation of the game as a novel. It was only published in Japan, of course, and the lack of good memes indicates it wasn’t as memorable as the Castlevania II novelization. Alas.

Something Old

The game was called Final Fantasy! But almost everything else was ejected for this sequel.

Almost. What remained would codify the game for the rest of the 2D era, like the battle viewpoint (the lead RPG at the time, Dragon Quest, would not display its heroes in battle until, what, VIII?), the battle menu and the presence of an overworld with dungeons. Sure, we take them for granted now, but back then…

Something New

And what didn’t II introduce. Everything but the kitchen sink made it into this game.

The most critical influence II would have for the series would be ditching the vignette approach of I (most likely influenced by Dragon Quest) and instead embracing a story-based approach with pre-defined characters in your party. This was a critical departure for the series and one that would set it apart from Dragon Quest, even as it borrowed its MP mechanic.

By the way, this game has this NPC called Cid who likes airships. Funny guy, but surely he won’t be critical for the series, just like this Chocobo thing…

Something Blew

Of course, with so many additions some things would be left on the wayside. And by “some” I mean “many” since III would go back to I’s systems. The non-job, skill-use based level up system would ever be used again in the series (although other games, including western ones, would pick up on it). The keyword system would also go the way of the dodo. But you can draw a direct evolutionary line between this game and the SaGa series, where some of the ideas of II would take root.

Score

25654 / 255555 canceled attacks.

More later, when I have a monitor, and can type on pc, again. Just want to add two things for now:

1) I'm playing FF XII now, and it feels a whole lot like II. Not sure why, maybe the overworld, that is so sprawling and open.

2) Critisicm is way overblown for II. Reduced stats, for example, were a non-issue for both of my playthroughs. Just play the game, most of the time, it will work out if you specialize from the start. Granted, you should know that, but there are a few things that you should know about FF I as well, that are not intuitive, especially for modern players (no, not the broken spells - I mean, that too - but that spell casting equipment exists, and is essential, especially the stuff that heals you). I like FF I, just saying that it shares some flaws with FF II.

The overblown complaints about FFII are a case study in player psychology. Number go up? Gamer happy. Number go down? Gamer no like, even if there's no material consequence.

Something else old: Firion reuses the FIGHTER sprite.

Something else new: FFII introduces some series staple enemies like the Bomb, although they won't get their trademark behaviors until the SNES era brings more complicated battle scripting.

Positronic Brain said:

Wild rose

#12
Final Fantasy II

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Is this at #12 also (tied) or was this a typo?

Johnny Unusual said:

Is this at #12 also (tied) or was this a typo?

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Er, um.... You saw nothing.

Johnny Unusual said:

Is this at #12 also (tied) or was this a typo?

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....

I'm kind of surprised to be the highest vote for FFII here, because I figured one of our many other SaGa partisans would rank it at #1. For me, I prefer every full on SaGa game to every Final Fantasy, but this proto-SaGa is not quite there yet so I couldn't in good conscience put it before X or VIII (which give me what I want out of the Final Fantasy series, in two very different ways).

Positronic Brain said:

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As you can see II has lots of new ideas and almost no room for old ones, which is why it ended up so different from its predecessor. Some people think this is because Kawazu had a larger hand in this game but I don't have evidence of that, he was one of three game designers, so I guess maybe they were just really having fun trying new ideas. But Kawazu certainly liked experimenting because he would continue to try any mechanic that sounded fun in his own series of games in the future, while Final Fantasy III would become more like I and set the template for the series going on.

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It's possible that he's misremembering, but in interviews he has taken credit for at least the character growth system that went on to define SaGa.

FelixSH said:

but there are a few things that you should know about FF I as well, that are not intuitive, especially for modern players (no, not the broken spells - I mean, that too - but that spell casting equipment exists, and is essential, especially the stuff that heals you

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This also reminds me of something else Kawazu has mentioned about I and II. Dungeons and Dragons and Dragon Quest have been mentioned a lot in this thread, but Kawazu has noted that him and the rest of the team were big fans of Wizardry, and that's where this spell casting equipment comes from. So, that's something to keep in mind more broadly. A lot of FFI and II ideas aren't coming indirectly from Wizardy/Ultima-->Dragon Quest-->Final Fantasy, but directly from everyone involved liking Wizardry and Ultima.

FFII is one of the only two mainline FFs I haven't played, and the one I've heard a lot more about because of those overblown complaints. Weirdly though the complaints about how stats work make me MORE interested in it, not less. Number go down indeed causes the no like reaction, but the way number go up is something I experienced in another game, Quest64, and I like the general direction of that a lot.