What can change the nature of a man? Let's Play Planescape: Torment!

A -> 1: Sign the contract, and collect your 50 copper commons (neutral)
B -> 2: Offer to get the contract for them, but demand payment for your service (more evil)
C -> 5: He wants to die, and he's willing to pay for it? Great! (more evil and chaotic)
D -> 4: Brush her off; you're not a shrink (neutral)
E -> 3: I don't believe in their philosophy (neutral)
F -> 4: D: assisting someone in coming to grips with the Dustmen philosophy in their old age

(Incidentally, if they were options, I'd generally pick options that meant I was generally indifferent to things that don't further my goals.)

You only need take issue with it if you think being "WoW-ified" is a bad thing...

I don't think the Planescape cosmology is that complicated, really. "17 + 18" sounds like a lot, but it gets simplified considerably when you consider that those planes are all based on simple rules and ideas. It's hard to keep the para- and quasi-elemental planes straight, but a lot easier to visualize "you have four elemental planes, two energy planes, and then some in-between places where their boundaries intersect". The outer planes work similarly, except with ideas instead of form.

The actual nuts and bolts of these places -- who lives there, why you'd go there, what the geography is like, etc. -- is no more complicated than any other 2e setting. (And actually quite a bit easier in places. Dragonlance setting material included grid-perfect maps of entire regions and city layouts. Planescape often glazed over that sort of minutiae.)

I actually think the loss of super-detailed campaign settings after 2e was a damn shame. I understand why 3e moved away from that model, but 4e launched during the era of digital distribution. So while I like 4e's cosmology for what it is, I don't believe the reason they ditched the old planes had anything to do with "we don't have the resources to print and distribute five boxed sets plus however many supplements*".


* Yes, five. There was the core box, one box each for the planes of Law, Chaos and Conflict, and the Blood War box. I wish mine were all still complete...

The funny thing is, WoW became a lot more like 4E several years (and expansions) after 4E came out, at least from what I've seen (I got out like three years ago). And a lot of newer MMOs have moved in that direction, too. 4E was years ahead of modern MMO design when it hit.

I think the 4E cosmology is fine, it's so tangential to the rules you can replace it with whatever you like easily enough, and a nice simple cosmology is a good fit for the core books.

[disclaimer: Destil's favorite cosmology book is the 3.0E Manual of the Planes because of the rules for building your own, with whichever planescape boxed set he feels the most affnity for on any given day in a close second]

The problem that I have with people comparing 4e to WoW, is that it's always done derisively, with the idea that 4e is "more video gamey" (whatever that means), which is hilarious since the actual D&D MMORPG runs off a form of 3.5 rules...

... but I digress. I don't find 4e's cosmology bad; it's just not what I prefer, nor is it what Planescape: Torment is set in.

To Brick's point (and with a nod to Destil), the 3.0 Manual of the Planes managed to give a pretty good overview of each of the 17 Outer Planes without requiring more than 200 pages.

Like Brick, however, I grieve the loss of the "detail" that the 2e Planescape material got; each book had it's own distinct style that came from more than the art. The fonts, the quotes from characters, and even the structure. Heck, even the adventures they wrote for the setting are important! Traversing the Infinite Staircase to stop an invisible disease that travels through portals and induces intense apathy? Delivering a love letter between a Cornugon and a Succubus to her abode in the Abyss? Entering a Godsmen residence filled with powers-to-be while tracking down a murderer who is killing lawfully aligned sods? Those are as important in building the setting to me as any document outlining what Mechanus is like. Planescape - to me - is very much the sum of its parts.

(But I digress. Again.)

(Incidentally, I will be adding some more 4e "creatures" to the Dustmen entry, as I regret making it so bare.)

See also: The Great Modron March.

Way less, the actual core cosmology is just over 100 pages, and that covers everything: prime, inner, outer and transient.

[had it at my desk as a reference for Woe of the Wards]

Well, to be fair, this is also true of the core 2e material in The DM's Guide to the Planes. You could run a pretty excellent Planescape campaign with just that, the Player's Guide to the Planes (which had planar races and factions)and the first monster appendix (which has all the important fiends, celestials, various denizens of Sigil, etc.).

A)3. There could be repercussions. Besides, what if we get caught up in some weird feedback loop? What happens to an immortal who becomes undead?


B) 1. You can't contract around death, and even if you could there's likely a power imbalance between the parties that makes the whole situation abhorrent.


C) 3. If he wants to make this choice, he needs to see what it means to die, or to be unable to die (or to live).

D) 1. Just cause she's old doesn't make her stupid. She has time, and that's valuable. Might as well use it honestly. Besides, if she didn't want to hear it she wouldn't be asking.

E) 1. What the hell do we know about the planes, we don't even know our name. Maybe this is all how it works. Maybe not.

F) 2. All things are power, and the only use for power is to effect change.

A) 1. Nothing wrong with making a little jink thanks to our situation
B) 3. You signed it, coney. Now you're scragged
C) 3. Sometimes the dead book is a short story
D) 2. No need to crush the poor sod's hopes
E) 3. Dusties don't know the dark of existence anymore than the rest of the Factions
F) 1. Get your jink, then give 'em the laugh

(neutral good is my alignment, btw)

As a note, I have updated the Dustmen write-up to include a lot more 4e material.

I'm going to close voting tonight, but I'm pretty busy this week, so I probably won't have an update until the weekend. Here are the current totals; apologies, I've got a spreadsheet doing most of the work, but breaking each vote down individually is more work than I want to do! I promise there won't be any more of these "multi-vote" things than necessary.

1. Sign a Death Contract? = Total # of Votes
Option 1, sign one (Neutral) = 5 votes
Option 2, sign multiple (Chaotic) = 15 votes
Option 3, sign none; you're immortal! (Lawful) = 5 votes

2. Help break a Death Contract? = Total # of Votes
Option 1, help the man (Good) = 10 votes
Option 2, help the man... for money (Evil) = 3 votes
Option 3, don't help the man (Neutral) = 5 votes

3. Help a man commit Suicide; he will pay = Total # of Votes
Option 1, outright refuse (Good) = 7 votes
Option 2, scare man, return money (Lawful) = 0 votes
Option 3, scare man by killing yourself in front of him (Neutral) = 3 votes
Option 4, scare man, keep money (Chaotic) = 3 votes
Option 5, kill man, take money (Chaotic Evil) = 5 votes

4. Help Dustmen through Test of Faith = Total # of Votes
Option 1, speak the truth (Lawful) = 7 votes
Option 2, answer questions gently (Good) = 5 votes
Option 3, lie to cheer her up (Chaotic Good) = 5 votes
Option 4, sidestep questions strike a balance to get the info (Neutral)* = 7 votes

5. The Dustmen Philosophy = Total # of Votes
Option 1, I believe in it (Lawful) = 2 votes
Option 2, *of course* I "believe" in it! (Chaotic) = 5 votes
Option 3, I don't really believe in it (Neutral) = 21 votes

* I realized there was a way to do the conversation "neutral" in a way that was fun and got us a few hundred experience points. So we'll do it that way if this option wins. I'll break ties with whichever option was given the most "weight" (i.e. was chosen as question "6"), which means option 4 is currently in the lead (barely).

Actually those settings changes don't sound that bad, if it was a new setting completely divorced from traditional D&D I suspect people would have liked it.

I also don't see making the game more like WoW as necessarily a bad thing. I guess they could have screwed everything up and I wouldn't have any point of reference to say otherwise, but the negative response seems a bit excessive.

I'll switch my #4 answer to the new option.

So will I!

The Edition Wars continue to rage my friend, and I have been deep within its trenches. 4e being "WoW-like" is considered an insult to the 4e community (and has been for years), as it tries to paint the game as being more of a video game (rather than a roleplaying game). I understand that not everyone "means" that, but the phrase "WoW-like" now has a very loaded connotation when referencing 4e.

Maybe with "5e" (i.e. DnD Next) 3.5/Pathfinder players and 4e players can come together to hate the next edition... as one.

a: 2
b: 1
c: 3
d: 4
e: 3
f: 3

I don't know if I understand what is being said here, but I sure do like the sound of it.

I would like to change my votes to match Arithon's

FINAL VOTE TALLIES

Note that question 6 asked you to "pick" the most important question to you. Participants who had a vote weight greater than "1" had their weight applied to this question. Players who "lose" the vote they put their weight behind will see their vote weight increase as normally.

A) You have the option to sign a death contract - earning 50 copper - despite being in an immortal body. Do you...
1) Sign the contract, and collect your 50 copper commons (neutral) = 9 votes
2) Sign as many of these contracts as you can; it's free money! (more chaotic) = 16 votes
3) Refuse to sign these contracts; you would be cheating them to sign one (more lawful) = 4 votes


B) A person has signed a death contract, and now regrets doing so. Do you...
1) Offer to get the contract for them, and rip it up in front of them (more good) = 11 votes
2) Offer to get the contract for them, but demand payment for your service (more evil) = 3 votes
3) Refuse to get involved; the person made their decision, and now they must live - and die - because of it (neutral) = 5 votes


C) A Dustmen states he wishes to die, and asks you to kill him. He offers you money to do so. Do you...
1) Refuse to kill him (more good) = 7 votes
2) Put the fear of death in him, but don't kill him. Give him his money back (more lawful) = 0 votes
3) Kill yourself to show him the "power" of death - you're immortal after all (neutral) = 6 votes
4) Put the fear of death in him, but don't kill him. But... keep the money (more chaotic) = 3 votes
5) He wants to die, and he's willing to pay for it? Great! (more evil and chaotic) = 4 votes


D) An elderly Dustman woman expresses doubts her devotion to the Dustman in the twilight of her life. She asks several questions to you. Do you:
1) Answer them truthfully (more lawful) = 5 votes
2) Answer them gently (more good) = 5 votes
3) Lie to cheer her up (more chaotic, more good) = 5 votes
4) Brush her off; you're not a shrink Find balance in your answers (neutral) = 10 votes


E) Someone asks you if you believe in the Dustmen philosophy. What do you tell him?
1) I'm not sure, but my belief may grow with time (more lawful) = 2 votes
2) Yes, I *totally* believe in their "philosophy" (more chaotic) = 5 votes
3) I don't believe in their philosophy (neutral) = 18 votes

So you know, this is how many of the five "votes" each person who voted won; everyone won at least once:

Arithon32 = 1 vote won
Austin = 3 votes won
birdiedude = 2 votes won
Brickroad = 1 vote won
Cort = 4 votes won
Destil = 4 votes won
Falselogic = 2 votes won
Gerad = 2 votes won
Kalir = 2 votes won
Knurek = 3 votes won
Kylie = 1 vote won
Mogri = 4 votes won
MoneyCityManiac = 2 votes won
Mr Sensible = 3 votes won
Olli T = 1 vote won
Phil = 3 votes won
Soren Highwind = 4 votes won
Taeryn = 1 vote won
Teaspoon = 3 votes won

VOTES WON/VOTE WEIGHTS

I've included an indicator of how many votes a player has won. It's the number inside the square brackets!

Alpha Werewolf [1]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Arithon32 [4]'s new vote weight: 2 votes
Austin [7]'s new vote weight: 3 votes
birdiedude [2]'s new vote weight: 2 votes
Brickroad [3]'s new vote weight: 2 votes
Cort [5]'s new vote weight: 3 votes
Dawnswalker [2]'s new vote weight: 2 votes
Destil [8]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Falselogic [2]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Gerad [4]'s new vote weight: 3 votes
Heffenfeffer [1]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
JFink [0]'s new vote weight: 3 votes
Kalir [4]'s new vote weight: 3 votes
Knurek [5]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Kylie [2]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Loki [0]'s new vote weight: 2 votes
Mightyblue [1]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Mogri [5]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
MoneyCityManiac [2]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Mr Sensible [4]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Olli T [3]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Phil [7]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Raven [2]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Soren Highwind [9]'s new vote weight: 1 vote
Taeryn [3]'s new vote weight: 5 votes
Teaspoon [7]'s new vote weight: 1 vote

STATS.

My vote is hardly worth anything now!

That sounds like an Anarchist in the making!

Hahaha!
My plan is working.

I'm winning!

Second place isn't really "winning" so much as "losing first".

If you're not first, you're last!

Also: a NASCAR driver. I'm sorry about your promising dangerous career.

Didn't see Soren. Damn it.

While Destil hangs his head in shame, I want to give thanks to everyone who has voted in this LP to date. I'm still figuring some stuff out as I go along, and your patience has been greatly appreciated. If you've got any feedback, please post it here or PM me!

While you're waiting for another update, why not check out some of the other great LPs currently in progress on the forum? I'm as guilty as anyone for not commenting, but if you like what you see, give your friendly neighbourhood LPer some love! Here's three (in no particular order) that I'm really enjoying right now:

wilcoon's FTL: I'm a huge fan of watching people play roguelikes. This is one in space!

Lobst's Blazing Dragons: I love adventure games too! I admit that years of 3-D on the system makes me a bit amazed at all the 2-D animation that went into this game.

Loki's Earthbound: Not since Stiv's LP of Angband have I been as excited about an LP. Fuzzy Pickles!

And for old times sake:

- Eddie

Nah, no hard feelings. =) I'm rather surprised I've won this many votes, honestly!

What's your alignment good sir?! I believe your making this up as you go along!

I'm True Cool Neutral

Whenever a GM asks my alignment I just throw down True Neutral and wait to see if they think my actions dictate otherwise.