• Welcome to Talking Time's third iteration! If you would like to register for an account, or have already registered but have not yet been confirmed, please read the following:

    1. The CAPTCHA key's answer is "Percy"
    2. Once you've completed the registration process please email us from the email you used for registration at percyreghelper@gmail.com and include the username you used for registration

    Once you have completed these steps, Moderation Staff will be able to get your account approved.

Who has played ______ and can give me a recommendation?

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
So Children of Zodiarcs is on sale on Steam. Is it worth picking up and playing?
I really enjoyed it. 100%ed it and had a good time doing so. It's not very long (which is a plus IMO), and has some novel mechanics. I love how it physically models its dice-rolling mechanics and makes that relevant (ex, you can try to aim your throws to hit previously rolled dice).

Also, one of the MCs is that indie guest star with the boomerangs that that one Kickstarter has paid to put in a bunch of games (ex: he's a boss in Shovel Knight).
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
His name is Reize, and you will respect him!

…providing he ain’t a stink bug, I mean; I only know of him from Shovel Knight, honestly
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
He gets around. I'm not sure where there's a full list to point at, but he's also in CrossCode, Valdis Story, and Regalia, and at least several others. IIRC, he's supposed to be the star of his own game at some point, so the dev keeps paying to put him in other things as cross-promotion. I like him as this weird easter egg that suggests some kind of giant shared indie continuity.
 

Beowulf

Son of The Answer Man
(He/Him)
I want to get a new metroidvania game in the Steam sale. Given that I generally prefer Igavanias with heavier rpg elements and lower difficulty, should I get: Axiom Verge, Mystik Belle, Hollow Knight, or Timespinner?
Okay, Humble is running a Metroidvania sale with a wider list, so I'm back on the same question: I loved Timespinner and I'm generally a fan of Igavanias with inventory, leveling, all that jazz. Would I like Monster Sanctuary? Is there anything else on that list that might fit the bill? (I already have the Shantae and Guacamelee games.)
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
Two two components don't *quite* mesh as well as I would like, but FAR better than you would expect.

I enjoyed it.
 

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
I’m trying to decide between Etrian Odyssey V, Strange Journey Redux, and 7th Dragon (w/ translation and reduced encounters).

What say you, Tyrants?
 
I’m trying to decide between Etrian Odyssey V, Strange Journey Redux, and 7th Dragon (w/ translation and reduced encounters).

What say you, Tyrants?

I have played all of those. I like them all, and they're very different. Really depends on what you're in the mood for.

EOV feels very back to basics after III and IV, and it's up there with III as my favorite in the series. Which gets the top spot depends on my mood, because III has more complicated multiclassing and that whole sea exploration thing, while V really has much more straightforward character building and goes back to just dungeon dives. It has a lot of little touches in the writing that give dungeon exploration a lot of character.

Strange Journey is alongside Nocturne in hitting the sweetspot for Megami Tensei, before they started to really bulk it up with overwritten and redudant/repetitive text like most modern JRPGs. (Technically I only played the original game, so maybe the Redux ruins this with new content? Not sure how far it goes with its more anime redesigns and additions...) Another good dungeon crawl game, with relatively restrained narrative. But this obviously is going to involve much more active character building as you fuse your team, while EOV you'll mostly be on autopilot, putting in a few points every once in a while.

7th Dragon is kind of like taking a 16-bit retro throwback RPG with Dragon Quest 3 style blank slate characters but with modern JRPG levels of NPC dialogue and a modern "grind until you get these drops" quest system. Character building is closer to EO here, but there will be a lot more talking to NPCs and a lot more grinding if you want to do sidequests, although you can ignore those. Not sure what reduced encounters would do for balance. Hopefully they're pumping up EXP/Gold as well? Is it a toggle? I'd want to be able to turn it back up in case I did want to do a grind for drops sidequest, but if you're ignoring them it's no problem.

You can't go wrong with these, in my opinion...
 

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
Nice, thanks for the detailed write ups!

I did some searches to see how Redux compares to the original SJ, and it sounds like it adds a lot of QOL features without messing anything up too badly. Some people dislike the art, but I took a look at both styles and I can live with it.

The 7th Dragon patch was done by cavespeak, who also did the translation. Hardcore Gaming 101 recommended it. I’m ok with missing out on some quests if that ends up being an issue.

I think I’ll sleep on it & see what I’m in the mood for tomorrow.
 

q 3

here to eat fish and erase the universe
(they/them)
I spent considerable time on all three but only ever beat EO5 (including the extra stratum but not fighting the last superboss). EO5 is the pinnacle of Etrian Odyssey and an easy rec. The others both became quite a slog after a while - some of the later areas in Strange Journey are purposefully obnoxious to explore, while 7th Dragon desperately needs a revamp with some quality of life tweaks (even beyond the ones in the fan patch, which I did use and found indispensable). They do both have a lot of unique charm, though, so if you're hankering for a grind then don't be deterred.
 
That's a good point about the SJ dungeons. I'm not sure if Redux changes this either, but, for example, there are Atlus teleporter dungeons and because it's an auto-map you can't devise a system to just mark the correct path like you can in EO's robust manual mapping system.

It's also a good point that 7th Dragon definitely feels like an original DS JRPG without particularly forward thinking QOL features that became more common not too long after.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
I'll also recommend all three; each could convincingly argue their case for being the best of their respective series. I wrote about 7th Dragon and EOV in particular on the previous forum so I'll drop those thoughts here.

7th Dragon is really good! Things:

  • I didn't know how much I wanted Etrian-style party-building and battle mechanics wrapped up in a Phantasy Star/Dragon Quest-esque worldview and presentation until I got it. Of course, this impression is influenced by the pedigree at work in the people involved, but there's a lot about the game that feels like a novel and refreshing intersection of various branches of RPG that don't meet one another that often. It's got an old soul like something like The Legend of Legacy does.
  • I love the approximation and interpretation of Etrian standbys into a divergent context like here. What we've got is essentially a game consisting of 666 FOE battles, with a single-minded thematic focus and push in pursuing them that flips the traditional relationship of "avoid, avoid, avoid" between player and fearsome oblong entity. You must seek out the dragons, and the game's very interface is insistent on emphasizing the fact, constantly displaying and tracking down their number in the world, dwindling down and down through the hours. It's a context very similar to and interface design emotionally resonant in similar ways to Metroid II.

    Another Etrian transplant are the deathly flowers that permeate the game with just as much prevalence as the dragons, and just so as the two share a symbiotic relationship. It is likely anyone coming into this from Niinou's previous work remembers the run-destroying Muskoids from Etrian Odyssey's fifth stratum, and that mental association with malevolent flora is mixed with the environmental hazards of the second stratum, where the mere act of walking the earth proved a threat. The encroaching oppression of the flowers in 7th Dragon is tremendous: we're given a hard estimation of 80% of the world being overtaken by them; they fill every path and environment with their rampant growth; even the battle screen itself is obstructed and framed by them if they're in the vicinity. They even have an effect on the game's economy and inflate prices in regions they've left isolated. The game does not visually or mechanically ever let you forget about their presence, and it creates a really potent sensation of a world under unconventional siege, especially given how interlinked the flowers are to the dragons, seemingly birthing them and subsequently maintaining the existence of one another. Clearing the world of them one arduous step at a time feels meaningful not only because there's a slight mechanical benefit and possibility to it, but for how untenable the alternative would be on a sheer gut level.

    The dungeons then feel like another extrapolation of their Etrian equivalents, only viewed through a different slant. They exist as prototypical RPG dungeons as the game's models have explored, and in practice they're microcosms of Etrian labyrinth floors sans the manual mapping element. What is present is the feeling of being worn down through long treks, and together the high profusion of battles and constant environmental threats is what the game builds its identity on. It's fun to dive into these murdermazes as they're so clearly communicated in what they ask of the player, and so the "hundreds of boss battles!!" repetition can be understood as a long-term, meditative relationship instead of the game running out of ideas. There's additional texture lent to the exploration through interesting implementation of Etrian mechanics--the dragons can creep up into regular battles or to assist each other just as FOEs could, and there are a number of shortcuts available in the dungeons to expedite return trips in another familiar twist. For design that began as such a deliberate callback and tribute to a type of RPG this game isn't, the presence of analogous mechanics creates a compelling sensation of genre cross-pollination.
  • the quests are fantastic in this. How you do a quest in 7th Dragon, step by step:

    1) hear about someone's problems through the person themselves or through the grapevine
    2) go to the guild offices to formally accept the quest
    3) meet with the person to discuss the details
    4) do what needs doing
    5) report back to the client and inform them of your success
    6) finish up by checking in with the office and marking the quest as resolved and complete, receiving the submitted reward

    Every quest, no matter how mundane the task involved, feels like a satisfying mini-narrative explicitly because you have to take all of these steps yourself, and engage fully with the process. The hands-on feeling is amplified by the lack of any sort of auto-tracking journal reminding one of the current tasks--you have your mind and memory to count on to keep focused on the job, and the words of the people you meet to guide you through. There are counterexamples to this in other video games, like say Xenoblade Chronicles, that in service of player convenience automate and abbreviate several of these interactions into something more immediate, but ultimately unfulfilling because the game's lack of interest in its own nuances consequently leaves me disengaged from the act, with only numbers going up at an optimized pace to show for it. In 7th Dragon, my experience has largely been commitment to its video game taskmastering, because the rhythm inherent to them is compelling for its own sake outside of material incentives.
  • there's so much incidental text in this game. So much. Where this game came from developmentally and historically may lead one to expect a sort of stripped-down austerity to its textual offerings, but this isn't an 8-bit RPG in those terms. The approach if anything resembles the Trails series or Final Fantasy XII, with great emphasis placed on regularly updating NPC chatter in places revisited, and a supporting cast of some recurrence and notability (the traveling maid is a highlight early on). Poking around the environments likewise results in a steady stream of discoverable something-or-others as well as descriptive text that exists just because someone wanted to write it in. As a textual narrative, the Etrian balance is more or less retained: a player-dictated group of silent proxies to intermingle and live in the bounds of one's imagination who interact with a present but rationed-out central plot, and where Etrian served to characterize its world through evocative narration in its environments, 7th Dragon accomplishes much the same through lending an eye and ear toward its various residents instead.
  • really good and cute art. The excesses and proclivities of Yuji Himukai as the Etrian character designer are at this point passé, known and endured by many even as they overshadow the good qualities of his work. 7th Dragon does not employ his craft, and instead features the design work of artist Shirow Miwa, who in comparison and context works out better than his more prolific counterpart. Some of this is due to how the game presents itself and the deliberate divide it invites in its art direction: like Final Fantasy VII, there are several distinctly different representational forms to interact with here, unlike in Etrian where characters are unseen outside of their portraits and so have an unified visual footprint. In 7th Dragon there are the squat, super-deformed map sprites as RPGs of this type often deal with; the even more stylized in-battle forms derived from them that are seen foremost in promotional material; and finally more ordinarily-proportioned visages used in the game's menus and as NPC portraits. I think this inconsistency is a strength, because it allows the cute to be extraordinarily so, and the cool or beautiful to be that in equal measure, and it all hinges on context. Himukai's art is to be condemned in the times it engages in underage sexualization, and the matters are not helped by the fact that his style occupies a space in which such expressions are likely to happen as if through sheer inertia. Whoever made the choice here, Miwa or another developer, to primarily present the characters through an exaggerated plush doll-like aesthetic not only made a compelling stylistic decision but also alleviated the likelihood of sexualization of the young-looking cast. As raw designs, these characters are also a modicum less glamorized and sensationalized, though the same patterns of gender dimorphism still exist. Even so, the presence of the super-deformed art serves as something of an unifier on that front, which I'm happy about.
  • love how you cannot immediately understand every person and read every book or sign when globetrotting, as they require knowledge of the language in question, only attainable through further interactions and familiarization with new cultures and their people. So many good ideas in this game.

Etrian Odyssey V: Beyond the Myth is a contender for best of the series and I had no faith in it pulling off such a feat.

When the game came out in late 2017 I played its demo, and as if by a matter of course, readied myself for the full version. I'd played every other game in the series before, so why should this be any different? Upon release though, the best I could muster towards the game was indifference, and I put it aside with an air of disappointment I could not vocalize. At the time I wondered if the series had simply run its course for me over the hundreds of hours of collective play, and whether EOV in particular was to blame for my disinterest in its dungeon-crawling. After having played and finished the game, I can with the benefit of context and hindsight say that EOV was not responsible for my malaise at the time, but the supremely disheartening Untold remakes of the first two games that had preceded it, which had insinuated and wormed their way into my brain affecting how I thought of Etrian Odyssey in the abstract; a less interesting and good series than it actually is. EOV effectively washed all the doubt away--the last time I was this excited about the games was in the days of Etrian Odyssey III.

Some things I think V is particularly good at:

  • class design. As a player of RPGs, I'm not particularly numbers-crunchy for the joy of it, but I appreciate commitment to a theme and the mechanics to communicate that as much as anyone. V has a class selection that carries on the eclectic spirit of III, with dashes of the original game's straightforwardness and the refocused streamlining of IV. This is maybe the only series where I get into the party-building numbers-go-up aspect of play, where I can always approach it on terms of personal taste and inclination instead of raw optimization, and the game facilitates and indulges me in the act. These choices and personalizations were fun to make under the auspices of V's mastery class set-up, because they struck a very good balance between free customization and invisibly guided party builds. Experimentation still lives in EO even at its more directed moments.
  • the town. I think this is something that's generally undervalued and underdiscussed with the series, but EO at its best lives and dies by its writing for me, and one way the writing manifests most consistently through the many hours you spend with the games is with their respective townships and establishments. Everyone in V's Iorys is likable and memorable, from the hardworking and hapless innkeeper Jenetta and her unseen sisters to the amicably enterpreunial Syrik, to the protective ex-adventurer Mirina, the firm but supportive guildmaster Egar and the culturally engaged council representative Prince Ramus. All of them have more going on on an individual level than the confines of their roles in the player's context, and they're depicted as such--at times you might run into them in the labyrinth itself, or spending time with one another just because (like Egar and Ramus sharing cooking tips, or Mirina beings friends with Egar's wife). These little moments are made better by the sort of low-key progressiveness that is not new to EO, under its eyebrow-raising surface--characters will positively muse about the dissolution of enforced gender roles or catch themselves racially profiling others and swearing to do better, and it's just part of the fabric of the world and its peoples like the rest of the game.
  • the labyrinth. There just aren't enough good things to say about the feel of moment-to-moment exploration in V. After III and IV's expansion of the series's concept of a single explorable megastructure in their own ways, V's return to the original model may nominally seem like a regression. What it does is give every dungeon concept its due through several iterative steps, in ways where no idea is left unexplored or undercooked. At its best and most tense, V's labyrinths play out like dense dynamic puzzles, with slim margins for error but with room to breathe nonetheless between a rock and a monstrous place. The wild inventiveness never really stops, and at its strongest the game serves up some truly dazzling layouts and navigational means. It's one of the best dungeon-crawling experiences the series has ever accomplished, especially in this latter era when marathon endurance treks have diminished in favour of a different brand of a more peaks-and-valleys structure and challenge. In that context, EOV is unbeatable.
  • exploration events. This is, I think, the more recognized aspect of the series's writing strengths, and something that's been with it since the beginning: quiet little narratives in the corners of the labyrinth that play out like excerpts from a tabletop roleplaying session. III's innovation (if I recall) was to integrate your guild members by name into these episodes, creating contextually and personally significant narratives out of stock templates so effectively that it may as well have appeared as magic. V's twist on the formula is to absolutely litter its environments with these events, making the act of exploring its world a constantly surprising and delightful task even outside of the inherent joys of mapmaking itself. Its other no less than game-changing alteration is to serve up a summary and exp tally of each individual happening, neatly providing a bookend and a material reward both for attentive explorers. Like III's introduction of exp rewards for quests that made them more palatable for those that weren't satisfied with them purely because of narrative and item rewards before, so does V's adventure log create more incentives for players to engage with one of the primary appeals of the series at its core: the exploration of narratives both environmental and personal, and be rewarded for doing so.
  • mindful hindsight. The series was almost a decade going when EOV was developed and released. Its arcs have taken it through iterative expansions, iconoclastic innovators and recontextualizing modernizers, and through all of these a certain iconography has been built up that makes Etrian Odyssey what it is. V's return to the series's roots, so to say, isn't just a call to nostalgia, but indicative and present factor in how it plays out and plays with series conventions. It may be a stratum that resembles a past one, like the Lucent Hollows to the Azure Rainforest. It may be a character resemblance, like Egar to Marion. It may even be larger thematic conceits, like the hidden nature of the world awaiting at the end of the journey, and the push beyond the beyond. Maybe it's just Lili and Solor, the two gay folk heroes of Iorys, who are surely a twist on the solemn watchers Ren and Tlachtga from the first game. Instead of inevitable tragedy, V chooses to spin its take towards catharsis and a hopeful future, and this is what's so crucial about the creative choices it makes with every bit of inheritance it carries with it: there's remodeling, reassessment and recontextualization. It's at once familiar and fresh, and the best possible incarnation of the series's holistic heritage in ways that aren't literally celebratory. As it is, it embodies the focus of EO1, the occasional cruelty of EO2, the creativity of EO3 and the sheer playability of EO4. Whether you read the series as having ended here or at Nexus, it plays out like a farewell note to everything that came to pass before it even as it adds its own wrinkles to its history.

I will conclude with some notes about the party that made it through the labyrinth. Usually I name my EO guilds after friends, but this time I indulged some crossover fandom and made a very loosely-reasoned Touhou-themed party. Oops!

Front row: Meiling the Barrage Brawler Pugilist, Tenshi the Cannon Bearer Dragoon, Youmu the Blade Dancer Masurao
Back row: Seiga the Spirit Broker Necromancer, Sanae the Divine Herald Shaman

There really was no plan initially for this bunch, I just did the usual and picked the portraits or classes that seemed interesting, and trusted it would sort itself out from there. And it did, more than I could've expected. I'm used to limping through EO games with a sort of common confidence but no particular gift or effort as far as synergy and party composition, and here I thought it would be the same. As master classes unlocked, I spent some time retooling everyone to what seemed like an idea to pursue, and vets can probably guess what it was: all on Hell Slash, which I probably wouldn't even have paid attention to if I didn't think quad-wielding swords was inherently funny. After that, everyone just gelled into their roles to maximize Hell Slash's absurd damage output while maintaining survivability, and in effect it resulted in this team picking apart FOEs at threat level red on to the end of the game and into the bonus stratum. The final boss never got a move off because it was always bound and finished in a few rounds total.

I've never experienced such out-of-control bullying of ostensibly overpowering opposition, and it's a testament to the game's rock-solid design that I could stumble upon these tactics for myself, apply them, and still get an experience out of it that didn't by any means feel "broken" as a detriment to play. Beyond the specifics of the Hell Slash set-up, the basic rhythm and nature of exploration also tickled my preferences, with most standard battles solved through application of startlingly reliable mass poisons, and with an absence of a standard healer in favour of numerous in and out-of-battle passives stacking up to cover everyone. Even rid of the exploration context of the series, EO combat at its best feels like few other RPGs do.

That's where I'm at now, a floor into the sixth stratum, which by all means seems surmountable by bumblers unlike most past EO ultimate stratums, and I might pick away at it at my leisure. But for the most part, Etrian Odyssey V is concluded for me, and I'm really, really happy that I could refresh on the series and my understanding of it through honestly engaging with what ended up being an excellent game.

I can't quite align with the criticism of the games as a "slog", though, because I think fundamentally the kinds of RPGs these three represent are meant to be approached in such a way, to be nestled and burrowed into for long periods of time, engaged in play that could easily be characterized as monotonous and repetitive at their most frantic. It's their appeal and deterrent and which rejects most notions of "pacing" which are often treated as a flat universal to aspire to but that I've in practice never found to be so simply idealized.
 

Patrick

Magic-User
(He/Him)
Thanks, all!

Yeah, I realize that I’m in for 30+ hours of relatively similar fights with each of these. I’m ready for that.

I’ve played through most of the Etrian series (beat II and IV, finished most of III, bounced off of Untold), so I mostly know what to expect from EOV. Good to hear that this one turned out really well.

I’ve never played a mainline SMT game, but I finished Persona 3, and played part way through P3P, P4 and Devil Summoner 2. I’m really intrigued by the ways SJ will differ from those.

But, I think I’m gonna start with 7th Dragon. I adore Skies of Arcadia (which really needs a new port), and I’m an Etrian fan, so this looks like a real Peanut Butter & Chocolate situation.
 

Torzelbaum

????? LV 13 HP 292/ 292
(he, him, his)
So SD GUNDAM G GENERATION CROSS RAYS is on sale on Steam. How is it? And is any of the DLC or the Deluxe version worth it? I will admit that I am not much of a Gundam fan but I dig giant robots (even if they've been SDed) and TRPGs so it does have my interest because of that.
 

MCBanjoMike

Sudden chomper
(He/him)
Has anyone here played Bug Fables? I've been playing through the Paper Mario games with my son, but after the original, TTYD and Origami King (all fantastic in their own ways) I've run out of those. I know Bug Fables is basically a PM game, but how does it stack up to the real thing?

Heck, if you have any other recommendations for all-ages RPGs, put 'em here! I'm not sure how many of those exist, and I suspect we've already played the best of them, but I'd be happy to be wrong.
 

Gaer

chat.exe a cessé de fonctionner
Staff member
Moderator
@Peklo You just gave me the best possible recommendation of 7th dragon! I wrote the game off due to the artwork looking well, you know.

I had heard that there were also plot issues of a similarly gross vein, but this might have been me crossing wires.

I’ll have to give it a shot!
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
From my experience the Himukai-style character design foibles in exploitative output become more prevalent in the following three games in the series, after the setting makes the jump from medieval fantasy to modern day fantasy. There are some excellent character class concepts in those games, but the visual execution can be frustrating, so I don't recommend them on the same level as the first game by that standard.
 

Ludendorkk

(he/him)
Has anyone here played Bug Fables? I've been playing through the Paper Mario games with my son, but after the original, TTYD and Origami King (all fantastic in their own ways) I've run out of those. I know Bug Fables is basically a PM game, but how does it stack up to the real thing?

Heck, if you have any other recommendations for all-ages RPGs, put 'em here! I'm not sure how many of those exist, and I suspect we've already played the best of them, but I'd be happy to be wrong.

Bug Fables might actually be the best Paper Mario. But it's definitely more than just a clone -- the worldbuilding is great and the characters are wonderful and memorable in their own right completely divorced from the game's obvious inspiration.
 

Torzelbaum

????? LV 13 HP 292/ 292
(he, him, his)
So how are the Contra and Castlevania Collections? I remember being interested in them at first but that something about them made me pass them up. But I don't remember what the issue was. Can anyone chime in on this?
 

Sarge

hardcore retro gamin'
The bit that I've played of them seems fine. My primary gripe is that I still think they haven't fixed the buggy original version of Castlevania they used that often locks up in the hallway leading to Death.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
If they have flaws it's only by the relative M2 standard they've set for themselves, in that they're merely great instead of medium-defining collections. The game selections for both are excellent and the Game Boy dot matrix filter is one of the best of its kind.
 

Beta Metroid

At peace
(he/him)
Yep, they're pretty great. You can play different regional versions, remap the controls, and each has a nice selection. There are oddities: Haunted Castle is not on the Castlevania collection, but it is on the arcade collection, while the arcade Contras ARE on the Contra collection. But that's not really a negative.
 

Positronic Brain

Out Of Warranty
(He/him)
Yep, they're pretty great. You can play different regional versions, remap the controls, and each has a nice selection. There are oddities: Haunted Castle is not on the Castlevania collection, but it is on the arcade collection, while the arcade Contras ARE on the Contra collection. But that's not really a negative.
Yes. At that price they're a steal.
 

Octopus Prime

Mysterious Contraption
(He/Him)
Yep, they're pretty great. You can play different regional versions, remap the controls, and each has a nice selection. There are oddities: Haunted Castle is not on the Castlevania collection, but it is on the arcade collection, while the arcade Contras ARE on the Contra collection. But that's not really a negative.

Even then, that’s kind of addition through subtraction in Castlevania case
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
An important function of collections like these is to include the games that are not widely liked or known, as far as I'm concerned. If the scope is to truly present as much as can be managed, the curation can't depend solely on the evergreens to reflect that history accurately.
 
Top