• Welcome to Talking Time's third iteration! If you would like to register for an account, or have already registered but have not yet been confirmed, please read the following:

    1. The CAPTCHA key's answer is "Percy"
    2. Once you've completed the registration process please email us from the email you used for registration at percyreghelper@gmail.com and include the username you used for registration

    Once you have completed these steps, Moderation Staff will be able to get your account approved.

Token Talkin’ Tolkien Threadkin

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
JRR Tolkien was an author who wrote some fairly influential fantasy works. I always feel obliged to write a bit of an intro when I start a thread, but I imagine most people reading talking time know as much as I do or more about Tolkien.

I borrowed The Hobbit from my school library when I was maybe ten, and asked my parents for The Lord of the Rings, which I eventually got for Christmas. I found it much harder going than the earlier book, I think taking months to get through it and retaining very little. I found the Silmarillion in my high school library, but it was largely impenetrable to me. I haven’t really engaged much with Tolkien since - I saw the first Peter Jackson movie and that’s about it.

Recently my wife took The Hobbit out from our local library and read it over a few days. She’s since moved on to my old copy of The Fellowship of the Ring and I’ve made a start on The Hobbit. I’m up to the point where Bilbo falls off a dwarf’s back while fleeing goblins and passes out (yes I am using spoiler tags for a book that’s almost a hundred years old - I’m enjoying discovering what’s in it as I go), and so far I’m really enjoying it. Two things I’d kind of forgotten about it are that it was written for kids (Tolkien’s kids, specifically), which I think makes it quite an easy read (though no less enjoyable), and that there’s a lot of comedy in it. I’m sure I found the joke about the origin of golf funnier than it actually was just because it came out of nowhere when I wasn’t expecting it. When I was a kid I skipped over the songs and poems because I found them harder to read than prose, but they seem ok now, maybe because of all the rhyming kid’s books I’ve read in the last few years.

It’s claimed in the intro to the edition that I’m reading that Tolkien had no plans for the sequel when the Hobbit was written, and I can believe it. There’s a reasonable amount going on that doesn’t fit with my vague memories of the later books, like trolls turning to stone in the daylight. The party just stumbling across multiple legendary ancient weapons which are instantly recognisable to and feared by goblins is a fairly kid’s adventure book thing to happen. I remember LotR being a fair bit more serious, though it is a long time since I read it.

I’m tempted to try to read this to my kids, but I think they might be a bit young and find some of it scary, particularly all the mentions so far of people being eaten by trolls and goblins. Pretty sure there’s a giant spider coming up, too. Also, this was published in the 1930s and features various sentient races. Having had to do some unexpected editing on the fly while reading aloud TS Eliot’s 1930s Book of Practical Cats because of the racist bits, I’m slightly cautious about what might come up in this.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
The turning to stone thing still applies for some of Sauron's forces, the reason that the Fellowship have a temporary respite after Moria is because the orcs won't follow them out of the mine. However, orcs can in fact travel in sunlight (as can Uruk-hai), they just really hate it and have to be forced.
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
I finished The Hobbit some days back and now I’m waiting for my wife to finish Fellowship so I can start on it. Hobbit moves along at a remarkable clip, but she’s complaining that in LotR everything takes forever with detailed descriptions. I guess I’ll find out for myself at some point.
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
I’ve started reading Lord of the Rings, about 150 pages in. So far it’s easier going than I remembered, maybe because I was pretty young when I read it before. My edition starts with a foreword by Tolkien where he discusses how the ending would be different if the book had been influenced by WWII. I used to get really annoyed at book intros that spoil the ending, but I’ve got a pretty good idea where this one is going anyway, so no big deal. Then there’s a little essay on hobbits that I guess is supposed to bring you up to speed if you haven’t read the first book, and then it’s the adventures of the hobbits.

I was surprised how much I remembered of the start of the book, with little details of Bilbo’s birthday party and the like coming back to me. Once Frodo hits the road though it’s less familiar. The black riders pursuing him are something I’d forgotten and am finding quite effectively unsettling. When one starts crawling towards the hobbits before getting scared away I was thinking “how are they gonna get out of this one?”. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that such a celebrated text is pretty good reading.
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
Well now I'm curious about what changes he thought he'd make regarding WWII.
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
From my copy (spoilers):

Its sources are things long before in mind, or in some cases already written, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.
The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.
 
Well now I'm curious about what changes he thought he'd make regarding WWII.

Just to clarify, the key context is that he's trying to get people to stop oversimplifying it as a WWII allegory. So, this is not changes he thought he should have made or wished he would have made, but him listing examples of how the book would be different, if he had written it as an allegory for WWII, which he did not. The strong implication, I think, is that this would be a worse book, or at least (to Tolkein) as less interesting one. (I'm pretty sure this intro is in basically every edition of the book. If you own it, it's probably in yours, too, if you want to give it a look over.)
 
Last edited:

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
I just like the bit where he goes full Garth Marenghi on allegory and its perpetuators. Very snooty.
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
I will make an actual contribution to this thread: I remember trying to read Fellowship in high school and I don't think I even made it to them leaving the Shire before getting bored and giving up. Too many songs and stuff. I don't know how I would feel about it now. I'd probably try reading The Hobbit first. But anyway, the movie trilogy are some of my all-time favorite GOATs.
 

Sarcasmorator

Same as I ever was
(He/him)
I will make an actual contribution to this thread: I remember trying to read Fellowship in high school and I don't think I even made it to them leaving the Shire before getting bored and giving up. Too many songs and stuff. I don't know how I would feel about it now. I'd probably try reading The Hobbit first. But anyway, the movie trilogy are some of my all-time favorite GOATs.
My dad has read LOTR probably 15 times, and his advice is: skip the songs. Just skip 'em. They aren't crucial to the plot and they bog things down. Read them later if you like, but don't feel like you have to stop for them.
 
One thing I absolutely love about Tolkien is he drew his own maps for Middle Earth. The Hobbit map is my favorite with Mirkwood and the lonely mountain. I remember following the adventuring party along the map as I read it and then wondered what was going on on the other parts of the map.

I've read the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, and enjoy them both.

I tried to read the Silmarillion and gave up. I got about 15 pages in and quit. My version of the book came with a huge appendix, which should have been a tip off that this is not going to be an easy read.
 

Rosewood

The metal babble flees!
(she/her)
You can find The Hobbit narrated by Nicol Williamson on Youtube.
It is also available on Audible with an older (mid-'90s) narration by Rob Inglis (about which more in a sec), and there's also a very recent version with Andy Serkis.

I will make an actual contribution to this thread: I remember trying to read Fellowship in high school and I don't think I even made it to them leaving the Shire before getting bored and giving up.

This is me. Like, five times over a course of decades. Can't say I didn't put any effort into this (perhaps too) influential story. As a last-ditch attempt I've been listening to the Inglis narrated audio of Fellowship. And I've gotten past Tom Bombadil and to the Prancing Pony! Holy shit!

I'm torn about the songs. They add to the vibe of the piece (especially since Inglis actually sings them in most cases) but they also feel kind of shoehorned in and skippable.

I'm liking the atmosphere, the descriptions of scenery, the lived-in feeling, even the (very very) slowly encroaching sense of threat.

More when I've gotten somewhat further.
 

karzac

(he/him)
It also took me many tries to get through Fellowship. It finally cracked when I decided to approach it more as a fairy tale or fable than as a novel or adventure story. It works much better in that mode.

Two Towers and Return of the King are better though. The Frodo and Sam arc is excellent. The battle scenes are super boring though.
 

Paul le Fou

24/7 lofi hip hop man to study/relax to
(He)
I made it through Fellowship OK, it was Frodo and Sam's endless trudge in Two Towers that bored me into giving up. I picked back up from there when the TT movie was about to come out and enjoyed it much more, then happily made it through RotK easily.
 

Issun

Chumpy
(He/Him)
It boggles my mind that Fellowship was the book that some people slogged through. "Group of people go on grand journey" is my favorite fantasy trope. Different strokes, I guess.
 

Lokii

(He/Him)
Staff member
Moderator
Tolkien really understood that fantasy was about some hard ass walkin around
 

Rosewood

The metal babble flees!
(she/her)
At least in the U.S. a majority of writers would have been raised from birth to get around by car and would have no idea of what the scale of the world looks like either on foot or by horse.
 

RT-55J

space hero for hire
(He/Him + RT/artee)
What is a horse but a car that gets tired?

(In all seriousness though, my time as a young boy scout taught me well enough how far a person could reasonably travel in a day on foot, and I'll just say that fantasy authors don't make their characters tired enough.)
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
I really struggled with LotR first time through. I think it took me five years to finish. I learned to skip the songs and it made a lot of difference.

I read it again after the films came out and I rocketed through them and really enjoyed them. Knowing the context of the world really helped, and I even enjoyed the songs because I understood the backstory and the significance of them better.

It's not a book that desperately wants to be your friend, but it's a really good one when you make the connection with it.
 

Rosewood

The metal babble flees!
(she/her)
Finished Book I and on to book II. Chapter 2 is murderous. I get it, all this encyclopedia narrative is building a feel of a golden past full of mythic figures in comparison to which our current cast are scruffy wanna-bes (or don't particularly wanna-bes, in the case of the hobbits) in a leaden present. Boring as hell, though, and there's no way on earth I'm going to remember even half of this wall of names. (Not a request for a list of the names I ought to remember. My RL mates have got me covered there to a greater degree than I wish, already...)
 

Dracula

Plastic Vampire
(He/His)
I first read The Hobbit in junior high and first failed to read LOTR around the same time. I was able to make it all the way to Return of the King around that time, but never finished the book until long after the movies came out.

Writing conventions have changed so drastically since Tolkien's era. It would be nearly impossible for an author to publish a novel today which begins with pages upon pages of hobbits going about their daily lives with barely a hint of threat in the distance. That's exactly the appeal of the books, though. Sometimes the early parts of Fellowship are my favorite, where it's just Frodo enjoying a nice meal and Sam wondering if there might be giants in the world somewhere. You read the books to live in this world, and sometimes it's content to tell you about some part of it that's not terribly exciting. As @Phantoon said, LOTR doesn't really care if you like it.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
I kind of appreciate it for that. Too many things nowadays are focus tested to hell and back and it's nice to have a book that you have to approach on its own terms with no compromises at all.
 

Rosewood

The metal babble flees!
(she/her)
I'm not perceiving indifference from it, but at the same time maybe it's a factor of having come across books that were far more so, or even belligerent to the idea of my connection with it.

There's a lot to like here! The epic swell of Big Doings is affecting me almost despite myself. The settings are absorbing, beautifully described (I am particularly looking forward to the book version of the Dwarven ruins, though it's been long enough since I've seen the films that I don't have a clear idea of when that will be.) And the loyalty between the hobbits melts my frozen heart.
 

Büge

Arm Candy
(she/her)
It boggles my mind that Fellowship was the book that some people slogged through. "Group of people go on grand journey" is my favorite fantasy trope. Different strokes, I guess.

Fellowship has the largest ratio of diversions/sidequests/people sitting and talking to travel/action/doing important plot stuff.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
I'm not perceiving indifference from it, but at the same time maybe it's a factor of having come across books that were far more so, or even belligerent to the idea of my connection with it.
Well the Silmarillion is for you then!
 
Top