• Welcome to Talking Time's third iteration! If you would like to register for an account, or have already registered but have not yet been confirmed, please read the following:

    1. The CAPTCHA key's answer is "Percy"
    2. Once you've completed the registration process please email us from the email you used for registration at percyreghelper@gmail.com and include the username you used for registration

    Once you have completed these steps, Moderation Staff will be able to get your account approved.

Golden Sun was good all along, vindicating my teen self

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
At least, the original duology. I haven't gotten around to Dark Dawn but I think I might do this year, at the rate things are going.

So they added Golden Sun and Golden Sun: The Lost Age to GBA Online recently, and I decided I'd take 'em for a spin. Replaying a childhood favorite could be a nice way to wind down in the evening, I thought. So I did a little homework beforehand to make a checklist of all the djinn and some other transferable collectibles and set out. I ended up absolutely ripping through it and I'm hungry for more. Last night I wrapped up the final boss and transferred a fully-loaded gold password over to The Lost Age.

I mean, yeah, all the complaints still hold. The plot scenes could get their point across and be much punchier with half as many lines; the lack of a fast travel system makes grabbing things you missed a pain (which is why I made sure not to miss them); the generally low difficulty isn't always what you're looking for. But this is the sort of thing where hindsight really helps you adopt a good mindset for it. You know that, no matter how big the little viewscreen makes them feel, that none of the dungeons are too big, and the end of them is never far away. You know that, no matter how many lines they spend on it, they're going to leave a lot of the details and emotion of the story unstated, and there's no turning point where it becomes drastically more intense and focused. There's nothing in here worth getting impatient over.

With the perspective of knowing what I was in for - a long, smooth, consistent adventure with a very old-school heart - I was able to appreciate how well it does what it does well. I'm picking up on the themes of the story (though I won't say more on that until I'm done), the ethos of the systems design, the implicit characterization, the way the secrets are hidden.

I was 12 and 13 when I played Golden Sun repeatedly. I was 14 when I played The Lost Age, but not so obsessively; I had more to choose from by then, and it was all less novel. One thing I am noticing myself feeling is that I have detailed memories of the original game, but only vague impressions of its sequel, because of the attention that I was more willing to give it during that formative age. So it's practically brand new to me, but with the benefit of still remembering the general shape of things.

Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, the third game in the series, came out during a time in my life when I was hungering for very specific things from games, which it simply didn't provide, even though for some reason I thought it might. I wasn't able to approach it with this more laid-back and accepting mindset. I was unfair to it, and the disappointment that this unfairness fostered in me spread to its predecessors. My memories became focused on their drawbacks, their inconveniences, the things they chose not to say and do. I was wrong. These games are gems, plain and simple.

In conclusion, dense environments with intricate little navigational puzzles fuckin own and more RPGs should be based on this idea.
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
These games are in the category of childhood RPGs I don't really have any interest in replaying. I enjoyed them quite a bit at the time! But for whatever reason, I don't feel a need to play again.

The battle graphics and animations are sick as hell.
 

Kalir

Do you require aid.
(whatevs)
Golden Sun does absolutely have some themes in its writing, especially as pertaining to family and what the exact definition of that is.

But first, let me explain a bit more about chi.
 

Sarcasmorator

Same as I ever was
(He/him)
TIL Bongo is younger than I realized

Anyway yeah, the GS games are pretty good stuff. I got through the first and far into the second ~20 years ago, forgot to finish them, lost the first one so I couldn't carry the save over again, and stopped playing. I think I have them on the Pi, maybe time for a revisit myself on one platform or another.
 
I played the second one assuming it was the only one and that "The Lost Age" was merely a subtitle. Adored it, but always found the first game hard to go back to - it's so much more conventional, story- and party-wise.

Have started a save on the Switch, will see how far I get with it. Hopefully to TLA, but we'll see.
 

Beowulf

Son of The Answer Man
(He/Him)
I always felt that Golden Sun properly took the torch from the Lufia series, particularly with regards to dungeon puzzles. I replayed the first Golden Sun a few years ago and still have the transfer file for The Lost Age I keep meanings to go play. I never minded the easier difficulty level, though the conversations got a bit long-winded. I wonder if introducing it to a new generation of players will lead to a revival of the series.

And last year I played Beyond the Beyond, and earlier effort by the same team...don't bother doing that.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
The Lost Age is a satisfying step up over the original in size and intricacy, even if it does sometimes go overboard (lookin' at you, Air's Rock) (I should not have started that dungeon late at night with work in the morning). It's why I prefer to think of the duology as a single big game with a really awkward point of no return at about 1/3 of the way through. According to legend, that's how they designed it as well.

Taken that way, although your power (level) "resets," the overall complexity continues to escalate from where the first game left off. In terms of puzzles, there's a brief tutorial dungeon to refresh your memory and then you're right back in the thick of things, solving themed obstacle courses. In terms of RPG fundamentals, right off the bat the world is more open, the clues are more subtle, the rewards are more hidden, there are more side paths to go down, and you have immediate access to obstacles on the critical path that you have to assess whether or not you're prepared for by getting beaten down if you're not.
 

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
Tried them when the first came out but they never really clicked. I can certainly understand how they could be pivotal to younger folks though.
 
I'm playing Golden Sun right now on Switch Online and its actually pretty fun, but man is it ugly. I tried to play it on my television and quickly changed my mind. I didn't realize the games were made by Camelot Software Planning, but the music and gameplay really feels like Shining Force III.
 

Sarcasmorator

Same as I ever was
(He/him)
Looked pretty impressive on my GBA SP as I recall, but I can guess why it wouldn't hold up on a sharper and larger screen.
 

Sarge

hardcore retro gamin'
I was a big fan of both games back in the day. I loved all the class stuff you could do with the Djinn, especially with some combinations that could be considered "wrong". A bit verbose, but I don't think it bothered me much when I played them back then. Dark Dawn was also fun, but didn't quite hit that level of goodness of the original two.
 
Looked pretty impressive on my GBA SP as I recall, but I can guess why it wouldn't hold up on a sharper and larger screen.

Yeah I'm usually not really a stickler about graphics either, I mainly play old retro games, but it's probably the way they stretched the screen on the Switch.
 
I'm playing Golden Sun right now on Switch Online and its actually pretty fun, but man is it ugly. I tried to play it on my television and quickly changed my mind. I didn't realize the games were made by Camelot Software Planning, but the music and gameplay really feels like Shining Force III.
That's funny, considering how much its graphics were praised back in its day. I personally like its aesthetics but I do have to admit, parts of it do feel rather uncanny. Might be something to do with its color saturation?
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
It looks great at 160p.

Golden Sun is a showcase of the graphical features of the GBA: scaling, rotating, 15-bit color, and large bitmaps. The battle engine uses the trick of having oversized sprites for all the characters and scaling them down as the "camera" moves around in front of a static background, so while there are scaling artifacts, they don't usually result in the conspicuously square pixelation effects common to the scaling techniques used in other 16-bit RPGs. Additionally, because the high-color sprites use a lot of gradients rather than the hard lines typical of pixel art, they tended to withstand arbitrary scaling very well, by minimizing the negative effects of the resulting inconsistent pixel scale. It's not quite vector graphics but it has many of the same virtues.

However, the effect is completely lost if you blow up the resolution of the entire screen, because now what you have is an image scaled down and then scaled back up, losing fidelity in the process, and unavoidably reintroducing the sharp corners that the original technique was designed to minimize.

Color palette adjustments to compensate for the darkness of the original GBA screen were common early in the platform's life, too.
 

Beowulf

Son of The Answer Man
(He/Him)
I have yet to see a GBA game that actually looks great at TV-screen resolution. (Heck, I once pulled up SNES Breath of Fire and GBA Breath of Fire in sequence and I don't know why, but the difference is striking.) They generally look fantastic on my collection of emulator handhelds, though.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
Yeah, I played emulated games on full screen, back in the early 00s. I was really surprised, when I heard people praise the graphics.

It looks really nice with the intended resolution. But I have rarely seen a console whose games look worth, if blown up. But granted, I don't like the vaguely general arrtstyle of many GBA games.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
Yeah, this playthrough has been 100% handheld. No regrets there. Your Fire Emblems and Minish Caps look great on a TV, since they instead went the traditional route: superbly animated pixel art, which tends to scale well.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
I'm playing Golden Sun right now on Switch Online and its actually pretty fun, but man is it ugly. I tried to play it on my television and quickly changed my mind. I didn't realize the games were made by Camelot Software Planning, but the music and gameplay really feels like Shining Force III.
Use the "classic feel" filter. It sticks a pixel grid over the top, and I think it really helps the graphics.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
Credits just rolled on Golden Sun: The Lost Age. I defeated all the superbosses too, so the final boss was barely even a speed bump.

The Lost Age fulfills more of the classic RPG elements: you travel the whole world and see more varied locations, frequently have a choice of multiple destinations, you sail on a boat. The increased content isn't just in service of making the game longer, but increasing the granularity of the elements of the game's systems. The game is structured into two major arcs: trying to escape the eastern sea, and trying to complete the two lighthouses. Each of those arcs has a complex quest line with sub-objectives that can be tackled in multiple different orders, and along each of those paths there are a lot of djinn, so that the player is generally forced to explore deeper into the nuances of the class system. That, as well as the higher availability of unique and meaningfully differentiated equipment, means that any time the player finds a reward, they're likely to be able (if they so choose) to dig into the party setup menus and improve their optimization. And because small differences in djinn allocation can make a big difference in a character's abilities, this isn't just a matter of squeezing extra percentages out of things, but of significantly changing your game plan in battle. That, at least as much as the series' traditional spatial puzzles, is what helps to keep it feeling fresh throughout its entire runtime.

Narratively, it's got some understated and interesting stuff going on. The minute-to-minute events remain as they were: travel from village to village in this bronze-age run by small-time chiefs, and connect with the keepers of fragmentary secret memories of old-world magic, while generally just remaining focused on the logistics of travel. But occasionally the reason for the quest pokes through. Isaac had a pretty standard hero's journey thing going on: some jerks who were clearly up to no good messed with his village in the course, so he's bravely set out to stop them. Felix is in a more ambiguous situation, however: the player knows what he intends to do, but only gradually does the story reveal why he wants to do it. At first you just know that it's a hostage situation, which is no surprise because every single time Saturos shows up on screen, the first thing he does is take a hostage and start making demands. But learning the reasons why Saturos and Menardi wanted to ignite the lighthouses, and whether Felix would want to do the same thing even without the leverage they had over him, takes about half the game. Putting that kind of emotional distance between the player and the protagonist is a bold move, though I feel that they didn't take nearly as full advantage of it as they might have.

The main awkward thing that the script does is have any and all dialog scenes digress into exposition, without much regard for the urgency of the situation. I think that in 2003, we thought that was verbose. How little we suspected what true verbosity would look like...!

In conclusion, I love puzzle dungeons.
 
Personally I've always liked how they tried to map the cultures of the real world to their broad fantasy world, and imply that the lands you travel through have had their own dense histories that you barely get a glimpse of. It's not perfectly done, but it is genuinely ambitious and intriguing. I wonder if any other fantasy RPG has attempted this, or better, pulled it off.
 

Issun

Chumpy
(He/Him)
Personally I've always liked how they tried to map the cultures of the real world to their broad fantasy world, and imply that the lands you travel through have had their own dense histories that you barely get a glimpse of. It's not perfectly done, but it is genuinely ambitious and intriguing. I wonder if any other fantasy RPG has attempted this, or better, pulled it off.
Final Fantasy X comes immediately to mind. Every stop is rich with culture.
 

Sarge

hardcore retro gamin'
In conclusion, I love puzzle dungeons.
This is the correct answer - it's got a lot of that Lufia II thing going that I love.

Also, fantastic writeup. I really do need to revisit them - I don't know if I'd have more of a critical eye now after 20 years, or if I'd still appreciate them as much as I did then. Or maybe I'd even like them more, who knows?
 
Top