15 Silver Points Was Never Enough ~ Chrono Anniversary Thread

[Lokii]

It's the 25th/20th anniversary of some good games. Let's continue our fond reminiscences.

Thanks to the other thread I've been all atwitter about Chrono Cross. It's a game I played more than a fair amount in the early aughts but one I haven't touched in a good decade at least. I haven't given much thought since my thinking about games has changed pretty radically and I'm very excited to revisit it with new perspective. So I threw it onto my PSX Mini. A couple hours in and it's mighty impressive. Cross is a super accomplished work, full of technical and artistic flourishes. This is the height of what Square was doing in the 32-bit era.

One thing that awes immediately are the battle arenas. They are crammed with detail yet somehow load in fast and run smooth. The Lizard Rock arena at the start of the game has fish swimming in the water (only seen during the pre-battle pan) and seagulls in the sky. Totally extraneous stuff, but there never the less. I especially like this victory pan up to the game's signature cerulean skies with the lens flair. Simply magnificent stuff.

Hot take: The battle music's fine.

 

[Rascally Badger]

I, too, have just started a Chrono Cross replay. I played through the first encounter with Kid yesterday. That first hour or so is pretty much perfect. There are those artistic flourishes, but just as setting up a game and a mood, it is amazing. It starts with that cryptic dream at the fort, then dumps the player in Arni Village. Arni is compact, but there is a ton of character there, and all of the villagers work to set up the theme of the game. From the dialogue to the music, the whole thing is full of wistfulness and yearning. Most of the villagers are wondering how different things would have been if they had only made this other choice, from a waitress who wants to write poetry to a fisherman looking back on his work. After Serge travels across worlds and you return to Arni Village, everyone is different, but they are all still filled with that same wistfulness. It is a world where most of them made that different choice, and they still wonder about how things could have been different. Then you get the kicker; that in large part the catalyst for those different decisions was the death of Serge 10 years ago.

I know things get muddled after that, but that opening does everything right.

 

[Becksworth]

Hot take: The battle music's fine.

Yeah, I never quite got the hate. Not my favorite, but I’ve heard much worse.

 

[Paul le Fou]

Chrono Cross was a lot like FF8 for me, in that it was a totally fine experience on its own merits, but disappointed as an entry in the series it was meant to be part of. I haven't replayed either and...probably won't, but I definitely hit that OST not-infrequently. Time's Scar is still an all-time great.

 

[Daikaiju]

Kinda reminds me of attitudes toward FFMQ; "Gameplay's meh, but that music!"

 

[Lokii]

Chrono Cross was a lot like FF8 for me, in that it was a totally fine experience on its own merits, but disappointed as an entry in the series it was meant to be part of.

It's super weird. The game aggressively forges its own identity and comments seriously on Trigger in way that Trigger doesn't invite, being much more of a romp, but then Cross has all these little CT touchstones like the victory fanfare that aren't comments, instead functioning as series hallmarks. Cross places itself in a strange place for a sequel. It's doing the same thing with Radical Dreamers too but those references are more oblique due RD's obscurity. I think the game makes way more sense as the offspring of both Trigger and Dreamers than it does as Trigger 2.

 

[Bongo]

The thing about Chrono Trigger is that it doesn't linger. It's got these lavish (for its time) environments and set pieces, but there's no pressure to get as much out of those assets as possible. It's got dungeons, but they're paced around the narrative rhythm of their fixed encounters, not around expected resource attrition. In a genre known for its strong emphasis on the story, Chrono Trigger stands out by putting its storytelling in the most privileged position.

 

[clarice]

Chrono Cross was the first RPG i've played. At the time i couldn't read english and... i think i liked it more when i couldn't understand what the characters were saying. OUCH. OUCH. THAT WAS ROUGH. I'm sorry for being a downer. I actually like Chrono Cross. It is like rock'n roll: written by dumb young people, straight from the heart and trying their best to understand stuff. And it is lovely for that and it reminds me of stuff. And that soundtrack suggests so much.

I wanted to post in the new forum, and i did it! Yay! Ah, and i also like the battle music.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

The battle music is good. It just plays a LOT. Since you'll be in battle a LOT. And the thing about it that grates isn't the music itself but the context with which you hear it and the frequency with which you hear it ad nasueum. There are very few RPG battle-themes that survived that era that I remember fondly. The thing I think that probably grates on people is the opening refrain. The intense, mood-breaking, piercing sound of the violins going off, interrupting whatever sublime song you were listening to previously, I can imagine being a kick in the soft bits. And associating those opening notes with loading screens and Yet Another Random Encounter is enough to make people dislike a good song, IMO. But that's just my evaluation. RPGs in general have a hard time coordinating their battle music. They'll write one theme song for use in >90% of battles you fight and make like 5 boss fight themes. That's not how I would do it. And random encounters are also a product of their era. It's still very perplexing to me that more RPGs didn't follow Chrono Trigger to at least make the battles load on the maps themselves. Which is why Parasite Eve and Vagrant Story remains the greatest RPGs of the PS1 Era. Wait, what was I talking about?

 

[ThricebornPhoenix]

I have finally overcome the greatest challenge Chrono Trigger has to offer. Thanks to my remarkable ability to remember useless things, such as the precise placement of almost every encounter trigger in the game, I managed to reach the End of Time at a low enough level to see Spekkio's weakest form. Simply beating him is nothing, comparatively (he may be the game's most dangerous frog, but he's still a frog). With that, I think I have now done everything in CT - and it only took a quarter of a century!

 

[Lokii]

I'm up to Viper Manor. I took Nikki though I hemmed and hawed over the choice for a while. It's tough to decide between all three of the very good infiltration weirdos. I've forgotten so much of this game and I'm playing without a guide for the first time ever. This feels like the right decision. The game feels well clued in a way I don't remember: lots of little NPC hints for character recruitment of Lv 7 techs or just interesting setting details. I might end up missing half the characters but it feels more personal that way. I'm finding this to be a very engaging exploration game.

Anyway, here's some more cool battle arenas.

This striking one is used for all of two encounters and a short boss fight.

Love the way the camera swoops over the dragon skeleton in Fossil Valley.

Two moons over Viper Manor courtyard. I forget what's the deal with these.

Shing!!

 

[JBear]

Life got you stressed? Chillax:

 

[WildcatJF]

I never posted in the old forums about this, so I'll share some thoughts I have on CT (I've yet to play Cross) I wrote for my favorite games article:

This is one of the three games that have left the greatest imprint on my psyche; ones I have devoted multiple playthroughs to, absolutely embrace as the definitive examples of their respective genres, and games I can barely fault at all. Chrono Trigger, the best RPG ever made. And it really shouldn’t be a surprise, as it is the culmination of two powerhouses of the genre: Yuji Horii and Hironobu Sakaguchi, the founders of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, respectively, titan franchises even in the 16-bit era, and their combined talent made for one hell of a ride.

Uniting stellar sprite work, a top-notch soundtrack by Yasunori Mitsuda (with a few tracks from FF alum Nobuo Uematsu), and building a spectacular cast (designed by Akira Toriyama), CT just overflows with quality from a visual/aural perspective. Plus it has a rich blend of exploration, one of the better map transitions from overworlds to specific locations in any game, and the best battle engine in a RPG in my opinion. Bar none, just everything clicks. And no random battles. Bosses are epic, enemies are clever, and combat just feels GOOD. And there’s a plethora of sidequests to do that aren’t tedious or wasteful, AND a bevy of endings for the dedicated player to New Game Plus for. And yes, this game pioneered that wonderful game mode so you can replay it breezily. Just about every checkmark was achieved with this game.

There is SO little to gripe about. Primarily, I can focus on the DS port, which is an excellent and expansive rerelease that revises the translation and adds in some interesting features, like an ending viewer and soundtrack player. Unfortunately, it also tried to shoehorn in some new content in-game as well, but Tose couldn’t recapture the magic in their attempts of bringing in new areas cut from the original game. Mainly, they just flubbed the most dynamic part of CT‘s overworlds — the specific combat zones. In most cases, these can be bypassed if you know the trigger (ha). This allows players to quickly zoom through familiar ground if they forgot a treasure chest or for a sidequest. However, in these bonus areas THEY ALWAYS TRIGGER. No matter what. And they reset when you leave an particular subarea. So as you head out, you get to battle all of those baddies you fought on the way in. STUPID. It stands out like a sore thumb! Thankfully, these are not essential to beating the main game at all, so they can be skipped, but it’s a waste because the areas are kind of neat and there’s some good rewards there. And the monster mini game I never dabbled with. But that’s enough of the DS port.

As for the actual game? Well, there’s a couple parts where an encounter will just happen in the core game as well, but that’s only exasperated by the extra content. The tech combos can also be overpowered, which makes the game turn into a breeze. And rarely there’s a lack of direction from the game, so it can be a little confusing where to go next. But man. All of those are really, really inconsequential in the grand scheme of Chrono Trigger, one of the finest games I've ever played.

 

[Zef]

The battle music is good. It just plays a LOT. Since you'll be in battle a LOT. And the thing about it that grates isn't the music itself but the context with which you hear it and the frequency with which you hear it ad nasueum. There are very few RPG battle-themes that survived that era that I remember fondly. The thing I think that probably grates on people is the opening refrain. The intense, mood-breaking, piercing sound of the violins going off, interrupting whatever sublime song you were listening to previously, I can imagine being a kick in the soft bits.

This is it for me, really. Both "Gale" and "Magical Dreamers" are damn fine compositions on their own, and I have no beef with their loud instrumentation (be it the screech of the violin or the wail of the electric guitar). It's the repetition that makes them unbearable in pretty short order. Chrono Trigger's own Battle theme is just a basic, low-key bassline adorned with different "scenes", each with its own mood and instrumentation, so it is not just bearable, it always gets you pumped.

That said, "Between Life and Death" is an absolutely fantastic track and it was the perfect way to open not just the OST, but the game itself. I always, always, every single time, join along with the vocalizations at the end.

 

[Droewyn]

I remember loving CC when it came out. I also remember never finishing it because something shiny distracted me (FFIX?) I really ought to go back to it.

 

[Beta Metroid]

I have finally overcome the greatest challenge Chrono Trigger has to offer. Thanks to my remarkable ability to remember useless things, such as the precise placement of almost every encounter trigger in the game, I managed to reach the End of Time at a low enough level to see Spekkio's weakest form. Simply beating him is nothing, comparatively (he may be the game's most dangerous frog, but he's still a frog). With that, I think I have now done everything in CT - and it only took a quarter of a century!

I just want to say that I appreciate that reference to an excellent Muppet movie!

Other than that...despite being allergic to traditional jRPGs and not playing Chrono Trigger until 2009 or so, it still managed to work its way into my all-time top ten games. I don't really have time to get into it right now, and don't have much to say that hasn't been said many times over, but game is good!

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I have never been fond of the standard battle OR boss battle music for CT or CC; they just never hit right for me. Too much organ, or screechy violin, or hyperactive percussion, or whatever. Which is kinda funny because the "special event" boss and fight themes are always incredible, and most of the rest of both soundtracks are superb!

 

[Rascally Badger]

I just played up to Viper Manor. Termina is almost as good a location as Arni Village. The game expands greatly there, introducing a lot of characters. You can meet about a half dozen potential/eventual party members. It continues its very effective contrast of a bright, happy looking world that is filled with melancholy characters. The game also moves at a brisk clip. I've been intentionally taking my time, savoring the game and really exploring towns, talking to everyone. I am still at Viper Manor in just under 3 hours.

Maybe things take a turn, but I am still pretty sure that this game is great.

 

[Lokii]

Something neat I picked up on about Ft Dragonia this time round

Spoiler

the music references the Tyrano Lair theme from CT

 

[Zef]

Listening to the Chrono Cross episode of Retronauts and hearing Parish struggle to explain the plot with a weary sigh is the best anniversary present this game can get.

Something neat I picked up on about Ft Dragonia this time round

Spoiler

the music references the Tyrano Lair theme from CT

In said podcast, Nadia mentioned how "Life ~ Faraway Promise" begins with a reference to "Schala's Theme" and it's been 20 years and I had never picked up on that holy shit.

 

[Isrieri]

I actually haven’t beaten Chrono Trigger. I played up to Magus and then kinda dropped it. It’s a good game. One of these days I’ll finish it.

Magus was really hard. I liked his castle; great dungeon.

 

[Lokii]

I'm past Fort Dragonia and the big switcheroo. Miscellaneous thoughts:

• Like so many other aspects of this game, the plot is unconventional for what we'd expect from a JRPG. There's no threat to the general state of the world, instead it's mystery that drives the action, and a personally mystery at that. "What's up with Serge?" is basically the only motivator, at least so far, with a little bit of "Kid wants revenge on Lynx" for spice. Sure, Lynx is up to shenanigans in the background, but that's kept pretty distant from what's propelling Serge and the player as Serge forward. There's not even that typical throwaway NPC line about how "monsters are becoming more common these days" as mobs are contextualized as being part of El Nido ecosystem. This personal mystery plot works, but it is different from the typical JRPG structure. I'm sure there are examples out there, but I'm having a hard time thinking of another JRPG that goes for so long without a threat to the status quo. Even Chrono Trigger, with 1999 being the "safe era," that this game is consciously mirroring, still has the existential threat of Lavos. Can you guys think of any other threat-free RPGs?

• Despite the lack of an overarching threat things aren't perfect in El Nido. A theme running through the game, and one I didn't pick up on when I was younger, is the damaging nature of colonization. It's underwoven in so much of the setting, extending past the fairly cliche and surface level fantasy racism concerning the native demi-humans. The human societies that live most in-step with the environment (Arni and Guldove) are presented as ideal, but even then humans are mostly this destructive invasive force. Hunting down Komodo dragons to make a necklace is the introductory quest after all. Then Viper and the dragoons are aesthetically misaligned to the rest of El Nido and they're presented as the antagonists (at least in Another), and further, the threat of invasion from Porre is the justification that lets Lynx manipulate Viper into opening Fort Dragonia. Then there's the big environmental expressions of this theme like how the Hydra Marshes and Water Dragon Island are dead due to human influence in Another, and you as the player get to participate in the destruction of the of the marsh in Home. All this is in the background for the most part, existing as simply an aspect of the setting, but this early and pervasive expression of the theme develops it in order to set up the big late game twists when colonization begins occurring on a multi-dimensional level. I'm excited to see how this theming is further developed now that Home is open to me.

• I had either forgotten or never noticed how much the game keeps you in Another in this first half. Aside from two brief diversions into Home, all the action takes place in Another. I think it's a good pacing technique, opening up both worlds at the same time might have been overwhelming, still for a game that's premised on jumping between alternate realities it holds back on letting you play with this aspect for a long time (twenty hours by my clock). This achieves some neat things though. It makes Another the world where the norms are established and Home the mysterious "other," and it puts the player in role of out of place Serge in Another and out of place Lynx in Home. That's a pretty great trick.

• El Nido's such a great setting. This was the first time I think that Square focused on a single biome instead of a world tour. It's an extremely enjoyable place to hang out in and it's great fun to see all the varied environments they created that still fit within the tropical theme. I really admire the focus here. The line "under cerulean skies" in the intro narration really does feel like a mission statement. Plus it was kinda a genius idea to make a sequel to Chrono Trigger and then set it in this self-contained blip that totally justifies why it isn't on CT's world map even if it had been conceived of at the time.

• The combination of a lack of a driving threat and chill setting makes for a good exploration game. It's fun to simply vibe and poke around. There's lots of little secrets or interesting things to interact with. I feel like going without a guide was absolutely the right decision. Discovery and environmental exploration is such a core aspect of the game, and it seems like, at least to me, going through with a guide would away a big part of the experience. I'm really glad I decided to fly solo, even if it is rather intimidating. One of the game's themes is that choices have consequences, and so secrets can be missed permanently and innocuous actions can have surprising outcomes. After you get a boat you're directed to talk to a famous swordsman on a remote island. Instead of heading straight there I went exploring the map to seeing where I could poke my nose into and ended up doing the S. S. Invincible scenario. Afterwards I went to the swordsman's island only to find it had been burned down while I was off clowning around with the pirates. That was a surprising moment—a whole link the plot chain gone because I chose to go exploring instead.

• Speaking of exploring, I'm loving the game's big cast of playable characters. The general consensus is that going from a small well defined cast to a large group of generics was a mistake, but I'm not finding it to be an issue. Knowing that there's a big selection of interesting and varied playing pieces is exciting. Figuring out how to recruit them ties into that same exploration-focused world engagement, and nabbing someone new is wonderfully rewarding. The game also succeeds at making all these people part of its setting. They're well ingrained into the world and so exploring and engaging with the setting brings with it engagement with the cast. Plus, the game shows a lot of attention at bringing the details of specific party members into story-scenarios. For example, at one point the party explains to someone the whole parallel world situation and the claim is made that only Serge is from the other dimension. If you happen to have in your party one of the two people available at that point who are from Home (Poshul or Razzly) they'll pipe up to say um actually they're from the other dimension too. This kind of attention to detail does a lot to cement the characters even if they aren't "important to the plot." Also the accent system is a wonderful way to let any character be involved in cutscenes while maintaining their individuality. Frankly it's a genius idea and must have been a nightmare to achieve.

• This game, alongside FFIX, really is the ultimate expression of what Square was doing with the pre-rendered format. I really love this subgenre and I'm very interested in how works as a storytelling medium. I wish it had lasted a longer, there's really only a few RPGs that exist in it. It'd be super cool if the innovations and techniques involved with it had continued to be iterated on and evolved, but as a swan song Chrono Cross a damn excellent note to go out on.

 

[WisteriaHysteria]

Listening to the Chrono Cross episode of Retronauts and hearing Parish struggle to explain the plot with a weary sigh is the best anniversary present this game can get.

I feel like the plot being nonsense and too complicated to explain is a bigly exaggeration. Like, all the plot machinations of the robot city or Schala or the ghost kids honestly doesn't really matter to the vast majority of what you're doing in the game on a regular basis. A simple explanation of: "You hop between two parallel dimensions, one of which is history if you had died as a child, and see what's different" is pretty much good enough.

 

[Rascally Badger]

I haven't made much progress lately, but I'll cosign pretty much everything Lokii wrote.

As far as the nonsense and complication of the plot, I agree its somewhat of an overstatement. The general thrust of the game is pretty clear, but if you dig into the details it is a little like putting together a jigsaw puzzle with a few pieces missing and few pieces from a completely different puzzle mixed in. You'll still end up with a picture, but there are some holes in it.

 

[ASandoval]

I don't know. I played through the game a couple months ago and the whole

Spoiler

future utopian city that terraforms an archipelago in the past and then sends its entire city back in time along with an alternate dimension version of it inhabited by dinosaur people so they can wage war and split their god into seven beings to stop a parasitic super being from eating all of space and time while erstwhile the machine god they created to wipe their citizens memories gains sentience and puts their consciousness in a man that it also turns into a panther demon and is the main antagonist

is all pretty central to the main story and also completely batshit.

Make no mistake, I absolutely adore this game still. I also think the allegations of a convoluted plot are fair and just.

 

[Zef]

it is a little like putting together a jigsaw puzzle with a few pieces missing and few pieces from a completely different puzzle mixed in.

Also, yes, the day-to-day doesn't get bogged down with too many plot complications until... I want to say, the Dead Sea? Up until then, it's been a fairly typical RPG/narrative mystery that incites you to learn more, and the only curveballs are Lynx's "The assassin of time... the Chrono Trigger!" non-sequitur, his bad poetry after the switcheroo, and the Van Gogh/MC Escher segment that follows. But once the Dead Sea hits, the narrative starts focusing more and more on the messier parts of the plot, and exposition is delivered less and less organically so there's less time for the audience to adapt.

I don't hold it too much against it, though. I have a certain level of respect for earnest, driven authors who have so many ideas they're so excited to communicate, they put all of them in as best as they can, editors be damned.

 

[Lokii]

I'm not pushing back on any point specifically, but I am curious: what do yall think of with the term "convoluted storytelling?" Not enough links to connect the dots, the missing puzzle pieces as it were? Too many moving parts? Plot elements not being well enough established? Or big exposition dumps or pacing problems?

I'm interested in what convoluted means in a JRPG context.

edit: sorry if the tone of this is confrontational, it's really not meant to be. I’m legit curious about everyone’s opinion.

 

[narcodis]

I think I need to finish playing CC finally is what I think. I have a lot of opinions but I don't know how many are unfounded. I mainly feel like Cross is best when its true to its weird fever-dream storytelling that leaves lots of unanswered questions, and falters when it tries to be a sequel to Trigger.

 

[Aleryn]

Well said. I appreciated Chrono Cross the most after a week or more of reflection after completing it. A whole lotta stuff going on in there which I think make sense with time and consideration.

 

[ASandoval]

I'm not pushing back on any point specifically, but I am curious: what do yall think of with the term "convoluted storytelling?" Not enough links to connect the dots, the missing puzzle pieces as it were? Too many moving parts? Plot elements not being well enough established? Or big exposition dumps or pacing problems?

All of those things can apply to different games. For Cross, specifically, it's a combination of moving parts along with info dumps/pacing, like ghost children casually dropping major plot points right at the very end that the team didn't have the time/budget to incorporate into the main story (Kind of like a certain, other messy game this same dev team worked on).

And I do think Narcodis is right that it gets lost in the weeds when it tries to be a sequel to Trigger and Radical Dreamers. I also don't think it matters too much. I've long held that many Japanese games and anime series focus heavily on central themes and motifs and they will twist, bend and break their lore a hundred times over to hit those notes. For example, Metal Gear Solid V is a game about language barriers and globalization, and the plot will do whatever it needs to fit into the already tangled mess that is the MGS lore as long as it drives home those central themes first. See also every individual Kingdom Hearts game. And honestly I'm fine with that? Like sometimes it can make these game's feel a bit bogged down or overly stuffy, but as someone who values characters, theme and drama over world building, I'm absolutely fine with that approach, and in this case I think it makes Cross a beautiful mess. It's melancholic and yet surprisingly hopeful game whose convoluted plot nevertheless doesn't get in the way of those emotions and honestly just adds to the game's charm.