Let's Remake Let's Play! A discussion on Reforming/Remaking the LP Rules

Yeah, so earlier this year (late last year) there was a discussion of getting rid of the queue. I've hear tell that people who want to LP a game haven't because it is already reserved or they don't want to wait for a spot to open up. There are issues with the Video LPs, etc., etc.

This isn't a democracy but I do want the Let's Play section to serve both it's contributors and readers. So, what do you want to see changed? What do you want to see kept the same? What do you want subtracted and what do you want added? And if by some chance there is a consensus on any of this what is the best way to go about making such changes?

Fire Away

So my idea is get rid of the endless queue system and just have people reserve a time to start an LP. If you don't have a start time in mind, you can't sit on a game for months/years. Exceptions could be made if someone is going to do a series, but there are games that have been "claimed" for as long as I've been reading LPs.

I think there should also be an optional video LP megathread for some of the lesser-known video LPers who want to feed off each other. If someone wants to keep their own thread because they feel like they have the volume for it, I say let them have it, but I would strongly encourage new folks to use the main video LP thread so we don't have a dozen new threads every time someone starts a youtube account.

Since you asked, here is my pitch:

Let's merge all the YouTube video LP threads into one thread.

Why?

The simplest answer is that a thread dedicated solely to a user's video LPs is more-often-than-not shooting everyone in the foot. There are now quite a few "video LP" threads on the forum - some old, some new - and together I think they're a bit of a waste of real estate.

For starters, you don't know what you're going to get when you see a video LP topic. I don't mean this in a positive fashion. Part of getting people interested in an LP - I think - is selling them on what you're playing. That's inherently more difficult when you're basically telling someone in the LP forums "check out my MYSTERY BOX of LPs". Many LPs (video or not) suffer on this forum because the game they're showcasing is too "unknown", making it harder to build an audience. This is not a slight to anyone who LPs an obscure game, just the basic recognition that it's easier to have an audience playing Final Fantasy Tactics than a game made in RPG Maker. But where I think you can attract some hits by calling out an obscure game, I think the difficulty of building a audience is doubled (if not tripled) when you don't even tell the audience what you're playing.

It's like any topic on the forums here; if you don't grab my attention through your title, then I'm not going to do more than maybe read the first post or two. If the purpose of your thread is to the rotate through games, congrats: you've encouraged me not to read your thread at all.


But what's the harm?

I think it subtly holds back the LP forum form its potential. I don't think it's killing the forum, just that a bundle of video LP threads is a drain.

Every thread dedicated to a video LP (by my count, there are four on the first page) is pushing what is potentially an active LP to page 2. Even if it doesn't push an LP off the front page, it's still pushing it further down the list, which (in my experience) means I'm less likely to read them. As the audience for an individual mystery video LP thread is generally small, you're potentially cutting audiences for other LPs too.

I also hate to say it, but video LP threads tend to be pretty lazily put together. I'm not going to suggest that there's some "minimum" standard that LPs should be held to, but that a thread that's filled with links to a small number of YouTube videos is failing in that regard.

I mean look, I get it: someone of you like to use the threads as an extension of your YouTube comments. Brickroad's LP thread is a fantastic example. But I really think that Brickroad is the exception - not the rule - here. I also understand that not everybody wants to put in a lot of effort into some LPs, especially ones that are short enough that giving them their own thread would be kind of a waste too. But I think we need to ask ourselves if the current method - having each general video LP thread be it's own thing - is the best we could do.


My proposal:

Create a single "megathread" for video LPs that - for one reason or the other - will not get their own "separate" thread (i.e. like what Lobst is doing with his Blazing Dragons LP). When a new video is uploaded, it can go into one thread. I think this has some obvious advantages over the current "system":

1) It offers more real estate for other LPs - ones that are actually identified on the topic list.
2) It concentrates the audience into one thread. I think this would spur not only more comments, but encourage more people to "click through" and explore the thread. They may not like the game that Foxeris is playing, but they might like the game McDohl is (and vice versa).
3) It would hopefully encourage that LPs that deserve more than links in a thread to become their own LPs. McDohl's "Roguecraft" LP is a perfect example of an LP that should never have been hidden behind a "YouTube thread".

Do I think it's a perfect solution? No. But I think it would be a better solution than what we have now.

- Eddie

P.S. Also, get rid of the queue and the reserve list; they're artifacts that should die in a fire. If anyone can come up with a coherent reason for keeping either, I'd love to hear it. I'd rather the "Queue" simply become a thread for "archiving" finished LPs, and hyping upcoming ones.

Sort of like, "Hey I'm going to start a _______ LP In June!" And then everyone else knows you're looking to LP the game (so won't start one of their own), and if you don't start it before July, then I think it should be fair game for anyone who has the time to LP it.

P.P.S. TL/DR and to Echo McClain slightly, if you want to have your own thread for your YouTube LPs, then I think you need to justify it.

Any word on getting that official archive up and running?

I've never really been told what was going on with that by my predecessor and the time I contacted Parish about it I never heard back.

So, no there is no word on the official archive.

I have to admit, I'm a little torn on the video threads, but then of course I would be biased since I just got one.

I can see Eddie's point about a megathread meaning that someone who doesn't care about, say, Foxeris's videos might read the thread to see what Narcodis is up to, and that might foster better use from the thread. But I can also see where having multiple people's videos being discussed in one thread could lead to the comments becoming a bit of a cluster. Brickroad's thread can get that way as it is!

I'm also not sure how to better 'sell' a video LP, though. I mean, would a post saying "this isn't just a Castlevania LP, it's 'let's beat this game for the first time ever?' someone attract more attention than, say, Kayin clearing the game in ten minutes like a boss?

Eddie, could you please clarify whether you are specifically referring to the individual user video threads, and not video LPs in general? Your phrasing suggests you mean all, but the argument presented is more towards threads like Brick's singular video thread.


To the subject on hand, I am not opposed to a monthly limit, because the fact is that it did serve a purpose during a period of heavy use. Deregulating the queue just because things may be slow is not necessarily a good idea, because there's no saying as to whether things will never go back up to the levels that necessitated the queue in the first place. Not to mention that if there's going to regularly be slots left over each month, there's no effective difference between there being a queue or not, other then the availability of a shutoff valve if things get too hectic.

VERY YES.

I love LPing, but I tend to prefer less known games like Iji or what have you, and it's pretty demoralizing to wait for maybe two replies before my next update, while threads around me rocket ahead in discussion.

It's a hard problem to fix to be sure, but consolidating video threads into one megathread seems like it'll help.

On the subject of the queue and video LPs:

Solving one thing solves the other. The reason I made a catch-all thread in the first place was because I wasn't allowed to make a new thread for each LP. With the queue done away with, folks will be able to do just that; each new video series gets its own thread, with its own descriptive title, which is bumped whenever an update is posted, and then fades away upon completion.

My personal feeling is that Eddie's reasoning for wanting a video megathread doesn't pass the sniff test. He complains that video LP threads don't have descriptive titles -- and therefore are so much noise to be ignored. But surely it's easier for a new LP to get lost in the noise of a megathread? If your interest in video LPs is so low that you see it as a problem that video updates push "real" LPs to page two, then you aren't likely to follow a megathread anyway. So the suggestion reads to me as "please ghettoize all the video LPs in one spot so I can more easily ignore them".

If it makes you feel any better, I've really enjoyed both your Iji and Ib LPs, although I think I discovered them once they were nearly finished, so I didn't wind up commenting on them very much.

I agree that the queue system is a dinosaur at this point. We needed it at first, when every day saw a few new LP threads and most of them fizzled out after a few updates, but these days the queues are rarely full. Let people reserve a spot, put it on the schedule to give it an official air and to prevent other people from starting the same game. I also agree that having a master video LP thread would probably make the discussion livelier, especially for lesser known LPers. The option could still be there for folks to keep their individual threads if they really want to, but lumping them all together means that there will be a lot more activity in the one thread and it will be much more visible.

I guess my problem with all the separate video threads is I'm not going to check each and every "Billy Bob's LPs" thread, but I would keep up with the megathread.

The reason I said make it optional is because someone like Brickroad who already has a thread with many many pages of replies doesn't NEED the exposure and would probably just clutter it. But all you other guys, no offense, but I barely check those threads.

Absolutely. An entertaining blind or novice run is completely different from an expert run. Sell what you've got.

One way or another, the Racing Time thread should be separate.

Ok, I'm just a random forum lurker/reader/poster(and a pretty new one at that). I don't have a LP, I don't plan on making one in the (near) future.

But I enjoy both reading text LPs, as well as checking out video LPs on youtube.

I can't see why we can't have both without one being forced into one gigantic mess of a thread.
Feedback is very important for people just starting out video LPing as well. In one gigantic thread, I feel a lot of it would just drown in a flood of other posts.
And I see several threads on the first page that haven't had new posts in a week. Not saying those aren't active, but it's not as if a flood of video LP threads are forcing everything else away.

Umbaglo, I'm specifically referring to threads that are a generic "here is my video LPs" threads. I have zero problem with video LP threads that stand alone.

In a perfect world where LPs were easy, I would even suggest that we not have "watch ____ play video LP" threads (mega or otherwise) at all, and simply have every new "video LP" be it's own thread. If we can encourage that, I would much prefer it over my suggestion of a "mega" YouTube thread.

Brick: my intent is not to "ghettoize" video LPs, my intent is to raise the overall quality of threads on this forum. I do like video LPs, and watch them just as much (if not more) than as I read screenshot ones. What I don't like is that many of the YouTube threads on this forum don't properly advertise themselves, the games they're playing, nor the forum.

IF people would be willing to create new threads for the YouTube LPs they make (just like other video LPs on this forum), I'm fine without a Megathread. If people aren't, however, willing to start a new thread and put some effort into making it presentable, then yes, I'd prefer that to happen in one thread rather than five or more.

If there were to be a YouTube Megathread, I would suggest that someone "moderate" it, such that new LP series are linked in the first post, for easy browsing of what one can find in the thread.

That's a pretty good point.

I would probably put a bit more weight on the actual LPer's opinion than us readers.

What I REALLY wish was there was an easier way to change thread titles, so people could have their own thread but change the title to whatver game they are currently video LPing. The real problem for me is when I am looking at threads I want to click on, I tend for forget about the video threads unless I'm invested in something they are currently doing.

edit: Why don't we do more video LPs as separate threads? I seem to remember really enjoying some of the earlier video LPs that were a combination of talking on the thread and linking to videos. I think the overall problem with video LP threads are they sometimes are "here's my video" and then a week later they post "here's my next video." They are missing the interactive quality of most TT LPs.

As it is right now, making new threads for each game isn't possible, but I suppose removing the queue might solve this?

Though then you have to look at the fact that technically some of the Video LPs have already broken the "one LP of a game" rule. Brickroad and Narcodis have both LPed Megaman X4, for example.

I haven't seriously considered doing an LP for a while but when I was doing them, I hated the queue with passion. It ensured that by the time I was posting and getting responses, I'd already lost interest in the game and had other games competing for my attention.

It's not that people aren't willing, it's that they aren't allowed. Eliminate the queue and the problem solves itself.

Just because it's not on the first page doesn't mean it's not an active LP; it's generally pretty difficult to update an LP more than once a week (which is where you'd get most of your comments). I also think you need to consider the new reader; if you're trying to get them invested in this forum, do you do it with 20 threads showcasing 20 different games, or 15 threads showcasing 15 different games, with 5 having some unknown quantity behind them?

I'll put it this way: when someone creates a good LP for this forum, it's good for every other LP on the forum because it encourages people to keep checking back. I think it's rare the YouTube thread that can encourage that.

Brick: I think the queue should die in a fire, so if fixing that solves the other, then great.

I don't think the queue should be eliminated entirely. I would like to keep the thread less cluttered. But I do think we should have queue intervals more frequently, say, twice a month or so. (Maybe with three people per interval to create a little balance?)

Since I do the LP thing on Youtube as well I figured I'd weigh in on your discussion. I can see the merit of having a "Channel Thread" for each individual person doing LPs, then they can post inside for each LP they decide to do, similar to what Brickroad has. That seems cleaner than the other method which seems to be make a new thread for each individual game being LP'd? Anywho, I know personally what I would do with a thread is turn it into a table of contents type thing, with a post for each LP and turn off anyone but me being able to post there or auto-sticky all of my posts to the top. I'd prefer the conversation about my videos to actually happen in the Youtube comments because it helps my video metrics. XD

That, to me, would be the worst thing; this forum isn't meant to be advertising for your (I mean "your" as in "anyone's") YouTube channel. Remember that the point is the build the audience here for the benefit of the entire LP subforum.

I don't think that having a dedicated thread for each individual video LP is a good idea, just because so little content would actually go in the thread. Yes, I realize that I actually did this myself a while back, but I didn't know it would be a video LP when I started and I tried to compensate by having a few bonus features thrown in. But if your goal is just to make a bunch of videos and post them on YouTube, then your thread is going to be a wasteland and as a TT reader, I'm not going to bother visiting it. I actually think that consolidating many of the video LPs into one big thread would make me MORE likely to notice and watch them, because that thread would be full of activity. People should be allowed to have their own individual channels, at the very least so they can maintain an index of their LPs, but a thread per game strikes me as a bad idea. And overall, I think that many video LPs would be better served by being posted in a megathread, since it gives readers a good content aggregator to go to.

Well for video LPs advertising is exactly what it is. Besides posting a link to a video and saying "Here it is!" there isn't much that can happen in a thread about a video LP since everything centers around the video that isn't hosted in the thread.

The argument seems to be to remove clutter and confusion by adding more clutter and confusion. o.O

I agree, and maybe the same idea being posted by a forum regular won't get immediately blasted as being "the worst thing." XD I would add that any such mega-thread would need to be limited as to how often a person can post there. I aim to post content to my channel daily, and if someone with a schedule that is one or more videos a day could over-run it fairly quickly.

Wait, what? Since when did that happen? I thought video LPs were welcome to go through the queue like everything else - hence Uncharted, Star Fox 64, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., etc.

(What would really help video LPs is if we were able to embed videos on the forum; the audience wouldn't have to leave the forum to watch an LP and thus would be more inclined to comment in the thread instead of on the video. You'd also be able to tell a new update apart from an ordinary link, so it's more obvious when episode x is out.)

This, this, this.

I think it's like this: this forum is meant for the community, not for your (again, a royal "your"; not trying to pick on you) YouTube channel. If you're going to show off you LP here, then I think it shouldn't be too much to ask to put the focus on the thread HERE rather than the thread on your YouTube page. This shouldn't be a forum where you dump the LPs you were going to do anyway here to drum up hits.

The Something Awful forums have many examples of video LPs whose authors take the time to use the thread as a "hub" for viewers. That's what I'm suggesting should be happening here.

As for "creating a new thread for each individual LP", I don't think such a statement should ignore basic LPing "rules". If you're LPing something very quick (say, an LP that only takes six or less videos), then it probably is better served in the "Micro-LP" thread than on its own, much like any short game would deserve. Perhaps a better choice might be to give the thread a theme ("Disney NES Games", "Bad Video Games of Bad Movies", "Let's Play all the Battletoads Games" etc.) that would encapsulate several games.

But at the end of the day, here's the straight-talk: if people aren't commenting on your thread, you're probably not giving them anything to comment on. This isn't SA; we've got probably 1/100th of the community here. Your LP of an obscure game that no one has played is not very likely to light up with replies, because you're dealing with a very small audience.

This doesn't mean your LP is bad! It might mean that you're not pushing the right buttons to garner feedback. But I'll guarantee that if you created three different threads with three different games, you're going to get more hits, more comments, and better feedback than cramming them all into a single thread with a terrible title.

If there's going to be a megathread, then there's going to need to be a list of contents like the main LP thread. In a thread I've made, I can go back and do that, but in a Megathread, I couldn't. Which means someone is going to have to keep track and update it. So, is that making more work on Falselogic?

While I'm at it, here's another feature we should consider bugging Parish and Matchstick for:



Thread tagging. I've seen this done on a few other forums I go to, and it helps a ton both in terms of organization and, as a reader, in finding what you want to read. All we need are tags for Screenshot, Video and Hybrid and we're good to go.

I'd be willing to do it. I'd run it like this The first post in the thread would list LPs by author. Authors would otherwise need to update the FIRST post they make about a new video LP to contain all the links (this would be the post I would link to), but could otherwise post with updates a normal (re-editing the "first" post of a new LP).

But if Brick is right and removing the queue would solve this anyway, we should do that instead.