Let's Remake Let's Play! A discussion on Reforming/Remaking the LP Rules

I feel like that's a really shitty attitude. Just because a video needs to be hosted off-site doesn't mean that there is no community building in it. A lot of members of the community get together to make these videos. I wouldn't have started talking to Kalir at all if it weren't for his doing LPs. In fact, I wouldn't have ever shown up and started doing stuff here if it wasn't for Garrison. Just saying that video lps are just attempts at grabbing views on videos is kind of insulting.

He's saying this because it was implied at one point that an LPer would rather get comments on their youtube channel than in a thread for metrics, but our preference it to have actual threads on here with TT participation.

No, I think Smiler's right. That rule reads like TT has contempt for people who "only" make LPs for YouTube. Who has ever suggested that we'd rather get comments on YouTube for "metrics"?

My options right now are to either make a new thread for each new VLP I do, or to be ghettoized in a megathread. Both of those options are terrible. I don't like Eddie's reassurance that some VLPs are good enough for their own thread, implying that most aren't. Who gets to make that decision? Eddie? Falselogic? Should I start a new thread for Shadowgate?

I feel terrible about all this, because we have a handful of guys here who are at least as good at this as I am, and they're about to face a lot of "sorry, that game isn't worth it's own thread, it goes in the megathread with everything else".

While I don't agree with it, it was said, by someone who isn't actually posting LPs here.

I do think that the majority of people who would make LP videos and post them here would like some discussion here, because that discussion is what makes LPing worthwhile.

I've already felt like I've gotten more feedback on the Mega Man 3 LP here than I have in the years I've been doing screenshot LPs elsewhere.

I think that whole "TT LPs are for TT" backlash was a response to this:

But ... I don't know that that was a very serious statement.
Edit: and what Red said.

I really don't think (certainly hope not) that anyone other than the person making the LP would make that call. I would think anything anyone makes that's a multiple-video LP would completely be "worth it's own thread."

I thought the whole idea was to relax the strict claim-queue system so people could more freely start LP threads, and that video LPs could stand alone and hopefully stand out better. I don't want to do anything that hurts the people making the LPs, because they are free entertainment for us, and they take a long time, and I totally love that people do that!

I hope False and Eddie clarify what they meant, then. Because speaking as TT's most prolific VLPer, I have no idea whether I'm allowed to start a new thread for my next series.

I'm not sure if FL wants the new rules to be in effect now or not, but it sounds like the plan is to just start the thread and make a claim

But the rules also say:

That's all any of my VLPs are, this new one included.

Again, FL can clarify, but I think the idea now is to use the embedding function to make new posts in the thread for updates on video LPs, sort of like with a regular LP, but if you just want to say "hey here's my youtube channel" then there'll be a megathread for that.

If you are ready to start a new video LP, I say just go for it and start a thread and let FL clean up the mess later if it's not what he wants

I'm kidding. Mostly. But hopefully we can get this all ironed out soon so people can know what to do.

E: For the record, I feel like this is the kind of thing* that would go in a megathread, and most anything Brickroad & Co. does with multiple videos for a single game would go into it's own thread.

*not calling Mr. Toad out for anything, I just thought it was a good example of "here's a one-off link to a video that would go into a NWIO LP Thread Thread"

But it says "can".

Really, the rules look very clear to me that it does nothing for what you do. The only difference for you is that you are making a new thread for each game, and you can do so at any time. The last half of the line sounds to me like what makes the difference: If you're making it to advertise your YT channel, it can go in the megathread. Otherwise, it can have it's own thread. But either way, it's not forced.

The rules don't say "if you're advertising you're YT channel", though. It says "if your LP is just a series of links." If that's what FL wants to avoid why doesn't he just say that?

I made the comment about metrics, since my channel is partnered with Maker Studios comments and likes on youtube do matter. When you embed videos, such as here in the forum, you can't like it unless you go you youtube.

That being said I am not against doing a LP for Talking Time, once I get my personal life stable enough to start recording again. The only thing that makes me pause is not understanding the direction these rules are going in.

It doesn't seem that there is any kind of consensus about what is wanted. The moderators and forum regulars seem to want one thing, while the content creators want something else.

I'll follow the rules to do an LP for Talking Time, once some kind of system gets ironed out. However, I'm still going to value my channel over the forum if it comes down to a choice. I know my opinion isn't very popular with some of the vets around here, but if you are going to quote me you should at least know my feelings on things. ^_^

"Just a series of links" connotates that you are doing nothing but plopping down a link, with no effort to try and build upon the local community. It could be to your own site, to YT, to Viddler, or whatever. If you're just dropping into a thread, throwing down a link, and aren't trying to engage the TT community here, then maybe you shouldn't really take up a thread title on the board. But the use of "can" means it's not explicitly disallowed, either.

Sure, it could be written better, though.

Let me attack this from another angle: I'm being told to make a new thread for Sonic Generations. My first post in that thread is going to be an embed of the first video. Every post thereafter will just be an embed of the next video. No write-ups or commentary from me; after all, that's what the video's for. Maybe there will be discussion, maybe there won't. (There usually isn't -- or at least, not a lot -- if my current YT thread is anything to go by.)

Is that cool with everyone?

I don't personally see a problem.

... that's what's been happening to me, after all.

...... and some other folks.

I've got two responses to that.

If the question is, "do you mind if I make a new thread for Sonic Generations" the answer is,

"Of course I don't mind. That's what you should be doing."

Now if the question is, "do you mind if I make a new thread for Sonic Generations, but make a minimal to no attempt to engage with my audience in the thread through measures such as adding interesting trivia and anecdotes within the LP thread" then my answer is,

"Well, no that's not cool with me but that's okay. Like most LPs, I'll try and judge it by it's first update, and if it doesn't engage me I won't watch it. If you feel your LP of Sonic Generations is good enough that the videos say everything you want to about the game, go for it. The minimal effort you put towards creating a new thread and updating it (rather than the next to no effort you take in your current YouTube thread) is - to me - worth it because I think unless I'm a subscriber to your YT channel (or someone who checks your channel every day to see if a new Shadowgate video has been posted) I may not know you're creating this awesome LP of Sonic Generations that-is-so-good-that-no-other-commentary-on-it-other-than-what's-in-the-video is necessary."

I'll put it this way, because I honestly do not want people to get the idea that I'm somehow anti-video LPs around here: if SkyRender started a "SkyRender Plays Some Video Games!" thread where he proceeded to start screenshot LPs of Final Fantasys and Chrono Triggers and what not, I would be just as vocal in either getting him to split his screenshot LPs into separate threads.

Again, the issue is not that they're video LPs. The issue is that a thread that houses a bunch of LPs with no connection to each other (other than the author) is lazy. I hate to bring up Something Awful here, but there's a reason why such threads aren't allowed there, because they're shitty threads (regardless of how good the LP inside is).

Is a Brickroad LP where he imbeds a YouTube video in a thread every 48 hours or so and calls it a day ideal? No, it's probably not. But I think it's a better thread (read: less shitty) than the current status quo.

I think we may be over thinking this. The concern was that we had too many nondescript threads, and the word was that the reason for the video LP threads being set up the way they were was because we didn't "allow" video LPers to just start an LP when they recorded something new because of the queue. I have confidence that with the new tools and the new system, good LPs will still be good LPs. I personally will enjoy being able to see Brick and other's LPs embedded on the site and being able to engage with TT people in response to each video more actively. Even if Brick essentially posts a topic and then posts a video, the video speaks for itself. That's why he puts so much time into it. He doesn't have to write somethng witty every update to go with it.

Maybe this new format encourages more participation, maybe not. But instead of fighting about it, let's just give it a whirl and see what works and what doesn't. Ultimately, the content creators will do what they enjoy because that's why they do it in the first place.

Everyone chillax and let's just have some fun, okay?

This is a thing I have been thinking about since this discussion began. I think the reason a lot of LPs see not a whole lot of discussion is because the people who post in LP threads are part of the following subset: People who read TT > People with accounts > People who read the LP forum > people who have something to say about the game/update. The people who read TT number is already not especially big and it just keeps going down from there. Add in the tastes of the people who hang out around here which largely favor old/nostalgic games and you have your answer as to why there's just not a lot of activity unless its one of the few big hits, like an old RPG everyone's played or something people have gotten into the habit of watching like Brick's stuff.

This isn't SA where the sheer volume of people means that unless the LP is just shit there are going to be people interested in the game in question.

LPs with a video thrown in every 48 hours will get as much discussion as they deserve.

LPs with a video and commentary posted every 48 hours will get as much discussion as they deserve.

I'm not sure what my point is here.

I can't help but feel a little insulted by this. The interesting trivia and anecdotes (and singing and hilarious failures and other such spectacle) are in the video. I don't just poop them out, Eddie.

The flip side of this is, when it comes to my screenshot LPs, I already "make minimal to no attempt to engage with my audience in the thread". I haven't had any audience participation since I asked what the DW4's hero's name was, and before that, since I asked what my DoS party was. I write 'em and you read 'em. Any engagement comes from the audience response to the content, and then my response to that, but it doesn't actually inform or change the content.

Brick, you know I adore you. Your LPs - be they screenshot or video - are great. I don't want you to get the impression that I think you're not capable of putting effort into making an LP (you Final Fantasy II and Dragon Warrior IV LPs are amazing in part because you take LPing to another level within them).

But your YouTube channel thread here on TT? That's lazy.

Which isn't to say that the videos on your YouTube Channel (that people talk about in the thread) are lazy, because they're not! Screenshot LPs are difficult in some ways that video LPs aren't, and VideoLPs are difficult in some ways that screenshot LPs aren't. It's the nature of the medium.

Rereading my sentence that you took issue with, I do think I misspoke, and for that I apologize. I wasn't trying to single you or how you write LPs (or interact with your audience), I was merely trying to come up with some examples of how you might bring a LP out from within the four walls of a YouTube video. There are numerous examples of this in VLPs on the Something Awful forums. An example: geri_khan's Catherine LP

The focus is on the videos, but the author keeps an updated table of contents (with some great pictures), and uses questions at the end of videos to spur discussion and voting in the thread. They're are probably better examples, but what I'm trying to get at is that he didn't just dump a video into the thread every week or so; the thread became a living part of the LP.

Some people have simply created a functional index for their LP, and have just linked the videos (i.e. Squint's Heart of Darkness LP). Are they doing it wrong? No!

But bringing it once again back to your question, which wasn't "Is it okay that I start new threads for each individual YouTube LP I make" but rather,

No it's not "cool" with me because I think you're more talented than that. But I still would prefer a new thread - bare bones and all aside from the video - than your current YouTube thread.

And your comment isn't really about whether it's okay to start a new thread for a new YouTube LP, but that you're attempting to play chicken here and say "this is all I'm going to do! Does that make you reconsider!?" and the answer is no. It doesn't make me personally reconsider. It may make me personally disappointed, but you're a big boy and as I'm a fan of yours so I believe we will both get over any such disappointment.

But if I can be honest here and predict the future a bit, I think because you're such a dedicated LPer, that sometime in the future you're going to make a video LP, and you're going to use the same tools you use to make your screenshot LPs awesome inside the thread and create something truly magnificent, an LP that stands alone within the videos, but becomes something greater through it being within a dedicated forum thread. And that can't happen until people recognize that personal YouTube threads are not particularly great uses of bandwidth.

I'm getting really annoyed with the tone of this thread. It's supposed to be something that's going to help the LPers and the readers. Something isn't "lazy" if they are making entertainment for us for free, and the LPers shouldn't feel attacked by the new rules. Do what works best for you and it'll work out.

Seriously, we just need to have some new LPs start up with this format and see what works and go from there.

Until then, everyone should just back off, take a few breaths and calm down. We WANT good LPs on here, that's the whole point. We don't want to do anything that's going to make them worse. That would be dumb.

I predict a lot of disappointment in your future, Eddie. A lot of time and effort goes into making even a short video series. If that isn't enough for you, and you are holding out hope of some new kind of thing to go up with the video, I suppose I am here to break your heart.

This is not me playing chicken, or devil's advocate, or any other such thing. This is me being sad, because I am saying "I made you dudes a video! Check it!" and your reply is, "...a video, eh? Is that all you have? Well I guess you can have a thread..."

Adding Rules: Making Fun Shit Not Fun Since Forever!

I don't want to appear offensive, but I do want to expand on this slightly.

Brickroad, I really appreciate your work, as does most of the people here, I imagine. But your comment comes across as you pronouncing that this is something new and strange, when it's not. The end result is, really, as I kind of mentioned... you declaring "But what if I do like all the other VLPers on this forum?!" Which kind of is why people were pushing to dump the megathreads.

I mean, let's look at some other folks who decided to do video LPs here, like Lobst's Blazing Dragons series, my Star Trek Online series, Stiv's DoomRL series, and Dart Zaiyder's BS Zelds series, among others.

While it depresses me that I, and some of the other video LPers, don't get much discussion, it's not because I'm just giving up. And I'm not going to give up. Maybe the medium just doesn't bring itself well to that? But that doesn't seem to be the case at larger forums. And burying one's videos in one thread where one isn't even advertising the videos isn't going to make matters better, either.

I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing. If the removal of the queue means it's easier to run a few of the series I want to do concurrently, then all the better. But it doesn't change what I, or many other people, have already been doing.

That's alright Brick. But please, what I would like to see in a VLP thread is an entirely different matter than whether I think you can create one in the first place. I will take some responsibility here, because when you initially asked the question I felt the need to not give you a yes/no answer, and I think that's perhaps confused the issue. So from the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry.

Creating a new thread for video lps? Aces.

I hope these rules don't spoil your LP fun (or Madhair's, or anyone elses) honest. I understand that rules can be stifling, and that at the end of the day, no amount of rules is going to produce a string of quality LPs. I would hope that by taking some other rules away (i.e. the removal of the queue) will make things easier for everyone, because at the end of they day, I hope I'm arguing for measures that will make this forum a little bit better.

I've, hopefully, clarified some things in regards to the video LPs as well as the Megathreads. I'm going to leave it up to the LPer whether they want to post their LP into the Megathread or dedicate a thread to their project.

Right now, old rules are in effect and users with their own Video LPs threads can keep posting in them. If I get some sort of consensus on these rules I'll make an announcement for when they go into effect and we'll move forward from there.

You see, those rules are totes better.

Agreed. I think the gist is the same but it's a lot clearer now.

I might add that if anyone is just dying to start a new video LP right now that maybe they should be able to use the new format if they'd like, just so it doesn't hold them up.

If they've waited this long they can wait a few days more.