The Phantasy Star series

[FelixSH]

Instead of writing stuff into a bunch of different threads, I'll just make a new one. The series certainly deserves one. Maybe don't spoil PS IV for me? It's not a big deal if it happens, it's just the one game I haven't played (and III, but I think I know vaguely enough about that already).

So, as mentioned, I'm playing PS IV. And I'm at the part where I stopped last time: Getting to Aeido, where the guild is. Then getting the first hunt (or however you call it), for killing the sandworm. Because there is this weirdo who thinks that it's a great idea to have a sandworm farm and raise one. Well, it gets too big and dangerous, so he wants hunters to kill it.

Last time, I tried multiple times and couldn't do it. No idea why, but for some reason, I didn't want to progress without killing it. Which resulted in me stopping to play. This time, I killed it in one try. It took a bit of time, but it had just one physical attack. Strong, but not enough to kill instantly, so easy to heal. Gave a ton of EXP, so everyone leveled up two or three times, which is great.

So, next up, new stuff. I guess I will fight against Zio, or something? Wish me luck?

I could gush about it, or the first two games, again, but I already did so in the other thread.

 

[Voncaster]

During the 1up Retronauts era Christian and Shane gushed about Phantasy Star. They also thought that the old games (1-3), are kind of hard to go back to play for modern players. They require a lot of grinding and perhaps creating your own dungeon maps.

Phantasy Star IV however was an unapologetic recommendation. On the strength of that episode I decided to play it. It was released for Wii Virtual Console around the time of the Retronauts episode IIRC.

Phantasy Star IV is amazing. It is the best 16-bit RPG that I've played*.

Why the macro system was not adopted by every turn based RPG after PSIV is a mystery to me.

I truthfully don't remember the plot details of PSIV, its been a decade or more since I played it, but I do remember enjoying the game thoroughly and wondering why this series did not take off like FF.

*I have not played FFVI and Chrono Trigger.

 

[balder the brave]

I love Phantasy Star 2. I do play it with a map nearby. Ideally, a modern remaster would show on on screen somehow, although labeling the warp tiles presents a challenge.

I have bounced off of Phantasy Star IV a couple times. There’s a lot I like about it, but I find the world map kind of overwhelming.

Maybe not the most rational opinions. Perhaps it’s because I played 2 as a kid but not IV. Or because the map complexity in 2 grows gradually.

 

[JBear]

I will push back on the contention that PS I-III require a "a lot of grinding", but then again, I almost always push back on such contentions. Of those, the original game is the one I know best, and it requires literally a few minutes at the start and that's about it? Any grinding after that is grinding that you're opting into, IMO.

 

[Peklo]

I do remember enjoying the game thoroughly and wondering why this series did not take off like FF.

To play armchair analyst: they were on the "wrong" systems, whether it was the Master System's comparative low market penetration, and even when Mega Drive/Genesis had that, the perception was that you owned one for twitch action arcade games, for shoot 'em ups, for licensed sports games--not crunchy RPGs. The series effectively ended just as console RPGs were beginning to pick up traction globally, so that burgeoning fandom had nowhere else to go except competing series and new games that remained. For the last, it's something harder to quantify, but regardless of the incredibly impressive presentational aspects of the first and fourth games in particular, the series was also not particularly "flashy" in spirit or practice--the appeal was somewhere closer to a loosely related, atmospheric sci-fi serial, so its devotees had a lot to latch onto, but it wasn't necessarily all that concerned with grabbing an audience that wasn't primed for that sensibility.

 

[Issun]

Phantasy Star games are good. That's my one contribution to this thread at present.

 

[FelixSH]

I will push back on the contention that PS I-III require a "a lot of grinding", but then again, I almost always push back on such contentions. Of those, the original game is the one I know best, and it requires literally a few minutes at the start and that's about it? Any grinding after that is grinding that you're opting into, IMO.

If you don't mind elaborating, I'd be curious what you think of PS II. I thought, up to now, that you only are really into the first game, didn't know that you liked the others too. Particularly, what do you think of the dungeons, and how did you approach them? Did you map them out?

 

[Kazin]

I've only beaten the first and fourth games, both of which are excellent. I've not been able to beat the second game (those dungeons get super confusing fairly early on, and it sure seemed like that game required a fair bit of grinding from what I recall), and I've barely touched the third. I'm an enormous PSO fan, and regularly play it every couple of months, it seems, to level up a bit (Gamecube, primarily, though I've dabbled with the PC Blue Burst version a bit).

I do plan on playing through the whole series soon, though - I just bought CIB copies of the first and third games, and I've had a CIB copy of IV for a while. Cart only for II, I'm afraid, though. I want to play them on their original systems (well, on the Genesis with a Master System adapter cart for the first game, anyway). I still have some graph paper and may use that to play through the first game, could be fun.

 

[FelixSH]

I think the dungeons are intended to be old-school, in that you go in, look around, map it out a bit (or remember it), than get out. Killing monsters while getting lost, and getting stronger that way. So, if you are just using maps from the internet, you likely will soon be underleveled, and have to grind. But I think it also has a pretty high encounter rate, making it feel even more grindy?

That's my assumption, anyway. But I did use maps, and don't remember having to grind? I think? No, wait, I think I had to grind for the very few bosses who existed, and there quite a bit, so I guess if I had done it without online maps, it might have worked out better? Dunno, I'll try it for real, next time.

 

[Kazin]

It may just be the high encounter rate, yeah. I think the farthest I got was in some Genesis collection that had a fast forward option, but I don't even think I made it halfway through.

 

[balder the brave]

The network of warp tiles in PS2 rapidly grows beyond any reasonable self-mapping activity. IIRC, the devs admitted that they assigned dungeon design to an intern and they recognized the complexity was way overboard!

I remember it being a popular game at the time. The audience appetite and marketing were there - the execution was the problem.

Why do I go back to it? The music, the period anime designs, the purity of battle and leveling, and a couple bold plot twists.

 

[YangusKhan]

I will push back on the contention that PS I-III require a "a lot of grinding", but then again, I almost always push back on such contentions. Of those, the original game is the one I know best, and it requires literally a few minutes at the start and that's about it? Any grinding after that is grinding that you're opting into, IMO.

It's pretty common in my experience that when people say something is "grindy" it means the random encounter rate is too high for them.

 

[JBear]

If you don't mind elaborating, I'd be curious what you think of PS II. I thought, up to now, that you only are really into the first game, didn't know that you liked the others too. Particularly, what do you think of the dungeons, and how did you approach them? Did you map them out?

I don't want to speak at length here, because I'd prefer this thread be true to the positive spirit with which it was created, but II is my least favourite, owing almost entirely to the dungeon design. I love basically everything else about the game, so it really bums me out, but I find the dungeons difficult and unrewarding to navigate, owing in large part to what a poor job they do of conveying their structure. There's a lot of confusing tiles and samey corridors that make it far too easy to get lost, and make mapping challenging. For example:

The network of warp tiles in PS2 rapidly grows beyond any reasonable self-mapping activity. IIRC, the devs admitted that they assigned dungeon design to an intern and they recognized the complexity was way overboard!

Most (all? It's been too long) of those "warp tiles" aren't actually warp tiles at all, but actually stairs! If the warp tile sprite were to be replaced with, say, up and down stairs, that would go so far towards making the dungeon structure more sensible and readable, and give the player some sense of physical space to latch onto. Adding more character to individual rooms to make it clearer when you've looped would also be a huge change for the better. It's not so much that the mazes are too big or too convoluted, but just that the visual design (and encounter rate) makes them too easy to get lost in.

Also, I've heard that same anecdote about the dungeon design.

It's pretty common in my experience that when people say something is "grindy" it means the random encounter rate is too high for them.

This is useful to know if true, but also personally really frustrating, because that's definitely not what I understand it to mean.

 

[muteKi]

Yeah I was very confused by what you all meant by "warp tiles" until I saw JBear's post here, though I'll admit that the dungeon that removes stairs for pits late in the game is pretty fuckin nasty.

 

[FelixSH]

At least now I understand what people mean, when they say "grindy". I guess my understanding of the word is the same as JBears, just a game where you have to grind, because you don't get strong enough from battling enemies as they come along. Useful to know, but kinda irritating.

Thanks for explaining, JBear. Yeah, when I think of PS II, I think less of the dungeons, and more of the stuff inbetween. And thinking about it now, it feels a bit like a dark reflection of PS I, at least in some ways (speaking of story and tone, of course - and speaking as someone, who beat both games only once, years ago). But in PS I,
you start in a bad place, with your brother dying and an evil dictator terrorizing the people. But continue to get stronger, and at the end, you are heroes. The world is saved, and Alis can become queen. In any case, she is remembered as a hero, at least by some even 2000 years later (I just reached the city with the statue of her and Myau in PS IV). And I don't remember the details of PS I, but I guess you don't make the situation worse for yourself while on your quest.


In PS II, you start in what is supposed to be a utopia, but very soon learn how dire everything is (and damn, I know I'm repeating myself, but this game is grim). I think you get branded as traitors, as time goes on? One of the planets (the one where PS I starts, if I remember correctly) gets not saved, but destroyed. In the end, you save the other two planets, but your party is implied to get killed.

I still don't know how to deal with spoilers, especially with games like this. PS II has a cool story, that you should really experience while playing, I think. But also, most people will not play through it, because of the dungeons. Dunno, I don't care if anyone spoils anything here, but if someone does, the stuff is hidden away.

I still have some graph paper and may use that to play through the first game, could be fun.

When I played PS I a few years ago, and was in the right mood for drawing maps, it really enhanced the experience for me. It just feels like you achieve something, even if you only go in, see what a floor looks like, and get out again. I really think that using maps from other people cheapens the experience. ymmv, of course, but mapping stuff can be a lot of fun, especially if the dungeon floors are so perfectly split into individual squares.

 

[Kazin]

Some of those warp tiles were stairs?! Jfc lmao

I really enjoyed mapping in Etrian Odyssey, and I think the only thing I miss from mapping myself on paper is an indication of where my party currently is, because I tend to forget haha

 

[balder the brave]

Some of those warp tiles were stairs?! Jfc lmao

Slapping my forehead.

 

[estragon]

Some of those warp tiles were stairs?!

If I'm remembering correctly, I'm pretty sure JBear's parenthetical suggestion that they're all stairs is right.

Depending on the color, they're either stairs up or stairs down. So, it would definitely be extra difficult to map if you were treating those as warp tiles to somewhere else on the same floor.

 

[spines]

4 was one of the first rpgs i really fell in love with. almost everything about it hits, the plot a bit less so. but the presentation is super slick and i love how fast it moves in every way.

2 is a game i've always felt a weird draw to (i associate a bit of this to the fact that, when i first looked up the game's release date, gamefaqs said it was the day i was born. since then the date i've seen listed is a few days after that. but still...). the dark mood and retrofuturistic visual design are simple but they still work. and even though it's a somewhat monotonous game there are some real highlights in the story, mechanics, etc.

and i adore that soundtrack. it doesn't have the energy, variety, or quantity of 4's (which i also love), but it does so much to elevate the game

 

[FelixSH]

When playing Cosmic Star Heroine, which clearly draws a lot from PS IV, at least in presentation, I thought the breakneck speed was at fault for the story not working. But at this point, it's clear that PS IV is also a very fast paced game. And yet, it has characters and a story that work, that I like to experience / spend time with.

Sorry, this isn't meant as a critizism of CSH, I did enjoy that game. I'm more surprised, how much more than I thought they oriented themselves on PS IV. And how the stuff in PS IV does work, despite that speed.

 

[FelixSH]

I have reached Desolis. And met up with Raja, the best character. Honestly, all the characters are fun, and they are all so powerful. It's a bit crazy, how strong my team feels, at the moment. And I love how many different, uh, races(?) I have. Five? In what, eight characters? It's pretty great.

It's so satisfying, seeing the spaceships you get take of. When it bursts of that giant beam. And then the screen of space, with the planet or station you are going to. Beautiful.

Damn, the music in this game is great. And the atmosphere on the whole is still so, so great. I wished I could have played this game as a younger kid, around 10. It would have blown my mind. Hit like no other game. I wished there were more real sci-fi jrpgs. They feel so good.

 

[Nodal]

spraces

 

[FelixSH]

You can't just take Raja away, game. He just joined up with me! Give me back this overpowered healer.

I knew there were a bunch of characters in this game. But I didn't expect, that it worked like FF IV, in forcing a specific party onto me. I expected Hahn to rejoin me, but nope (which, granted, doesn't hurt me, he is probably the only character that didn't feel overpowered in some way?). We just keep on going.

Anyway, I just saved an esper from man-eating trees. Which is a really terrifying concept to me, for some reason. The trees, I mean, not the esper.

 

[muteKi]

Raja really is overpowered. He has an ability that can restore MP. Dude is nuts

 

[FelixSH]

Man, the sky castle is the worst. The layout is awful (I get it, it's an homage to the first game, with the same layout - which is neat, but making my way through it was just bad), and Lassic is an absurd difficulty spike. I just have no way of keeping up with that insane damage. Group damage, every round, always around or over 100 hp to everyone. I have three star dews, and one decent multi-heal spell, which I can use four or five times. Wren is completely useless, because the spell doesn't heal him, so he either dies or wastes every round healing himself.

I just had the best healer in the game, and for whatever reason, I'm not allowed to use him in the by far hardest boss battle up to this point.

Dunno, this kinda sours me on the game a bit. Not on the whole, but it is such an absurd roadblock, and I have no idea what to do. Does barrier, that stat-up spell that raises magic defense, stack? Because even grinding won't help much against this nonsense. I guess I should buy some shields, I just need to survive. At least with the spellcasters.

God, I hate difficulty spikes. It does get easier again, right?

 

[Issun]

I think I just ground levels for a bit, but then I actually enjoy a bit of light level grinding in a game so I'm not one to ask if you don't.

I do, though. There's a certain zen to it. Can't count how many hours I spent luring forest dudes off a cliff in Dark Souls.

 

[FelixSH]

I normally don't mind grinding a bit, it's just such a fluid game, with no roadblocks, this caught me a bit off guard. But thankfully, I didn't really have to grind. There was an alternative dungeon, where I found some upgrades from Wren, plus I added a few shields. With that, everyone was strong enough to survive the attacks so that I could still heal. Was still hard, but suddenly very doable. Unlike yesterday. I guess one or two levels really do make quite a difference in this game.

Or it's the power of complaining on the internet.

 

[Sarge]

PSIV is so good. Easily the best of the series, but I enjoyed the other two Genesis games as well. The original... well, I respect a lot about it, and want to love it, but I don't like the combat much at all. I have very hazy memories of PSII these days, and I likely played with a guide back then and emulated to boot (KGen for the win!), so I don't actually know how I'd feel about it on replay.

I do know how I feel about PSIV, because I have replayed it multiple times. It stands toe-to-toe with the best of the 16-bit era.

 

[Peklo]

A friend recently played through Phantasy Star IV so I had cause to recall and pull back up one of the better (and more digestible) pieces of video essaymaking on the subject, by Yaz Minsky. Since people have been playing here too, do check it out when the game is relatively fresh in the mind, or watch it without that context, even--good criticism stands on its own.

 

[Kazin]

This thread had me thinking about attempting to finally beat PSII and III, so after getting burned out on shiny hunting in Pokemon (I found myself Poke Radar chain hunting for shiny Mime Jr and had a rare moment of lucidity when I asked myself wtf I was doing), I started up the second game.

First of all, you were all right - so far, they are all stairs. Wow. I just got the fourth party member, and while I've been further than this in the past, most attempts don't even get this far lol. I really am going to try to see it through.

I need another stick of dynamite to get into the next dungeon, and can't remember where to find it. Oh well, Amy needs experience and gear anyway, may as well explore the two dungeons some more, I know I missed some treasure chests.

Fun stuff so far, even if the encounter rate (and chance for the enemy to hit first, ffs) feels quite high.

EDIT: Found the second stick of dynamite in the first dungeon pretty much right away, so now I'm wandering around the dungeon south of Oputa, leveling up and getting meseta to hopefully get some better armor for Kaz (Rolf in actuality - I really wish "Kazin" would fit lol) and Nei.