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The Dragonball Thread - It's Over 9000 Posts!

Johnny Unusual

(He/Him)
Hunt for the Basho Fan (Filler Arc 5)

Quick Synopsis
Goku and Chichi go to see Gyumao when suddenly Mt. Frypan once again erupts in flames. Goku and Chichi search for a solution as this time the Kamehameha would just kill Gyumao, who is inside his slowly burning castle, trapped behind a wall of flames. Performs several quests to find it with Chichi and after coming up empty, eventually finds it... but it still doesn't work. Goku learns the problem is Mt. Frypan exists above a portal to the underworld and must turn off a magical furnace. Once they get there, they meet Gohan and his new boss Annin, the Pyre Keeper. Annin tells Goku that turning it off would result in a huge apocalyptic catastrophe and the problem is a leak in the furnace that must be repaired. Goku, at great risk, does and saves Mt. Frypan and Goku and Chichi get married.

Story
Weak. I appreciate it feeling more like an adventure of the old days but those stories were fun and this is mostly a drag and most of it's attempts at comedy falter. Also, no fault of the original show but the first episode in the arc's subtitles were actually the subtitles for the next episode.

Animation
Mostly weak. Clearly buying time until it's time for DBZ to begin (which does the week after the arc ended).

Themes
I think it wants to sell Goku and Chichi as a team or bring them closer together but it doesn't really happen. My least favourite part is Chichi getting upset about her wife lessons and then never really learning not to measure herself against some made up standards.

Jokes
Virtually non-existent. Except when a bunch of Oolong-like pigs try to peep on Chichi because ugh.

Characters
A few characters come back like Pilaf and Gyumao but I don't care. Nice to see Gohan again, I guess but any joy in the reunion takes a back seat to plot. New characters aren't memorable but Annin comes close, as when she first appears, it seems like she might be capricious about the fate of Earth. But then that sort of drops and there isn't too much going on. I do like her hat attacking Goku, I guess.


Action and Adventure!

It's trying but without an Akira Toriyama-penned road map, seems like they can't do good Dragonball.

As for Z, I'll take a little break and maybe wait to see if the subs ever show up on Crunchyroll. Until then, it'll be nice to watch stuff where I don't give myself homework. Plus, I'm looking forward to Piccolo the Sitcom!


In his way, Gohan is really taking after his old man.

It's like
If all of the parties were OK with it (except poor Pan, maybe).
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
So, anybody catch the Dragon Ball Super Super Hero movie, now in theatres, but trailer'ed above? I saw it! I liked it! A lot! A great movie for anyone that wants to see less pure-blooded saiyans in the limelight.
 
Haven't seen it, but a buddy of mine did and he had glowing things to say. For starters, he's tickled pink the film, as he put it, "made Gohan Blanco canon" which is a big fanon thing in certain segments of the fandom. I'm looking forward to being able to catch it myself, but I'll have to wait until home video.
 

Vaeran

(GRUNTING)
(he/him)
Yeah, I've heard nothing but good things about Super Hero. Unfortunately my local theater's showing the subbed version at a time that doesn't really fit my schedule, and I'm not interested in the dub, so I'll have to catch it some other time.
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
Haven't seen it, but a buddy of mine did and he had glowing things to say. For starters, he's tickled pink the film, as he put it, "made Gohan Blanco canon" which is a big fanon thing in certain segments of the fandom.

This was being discussed on the ol' stream with @fanboymaster recently, but I feel like Dragonball has always run on a sort of "playground rumor" universe, where if someone told you the Namek arc ended with Vegeta and Bulma's son from the future using a cool sword to slice up a cyborg Frieza and his dad, you could either believe it, or acknowledge that is ridiculous.

That said, the following are items that appeared in the movie that I would have sworn were "fanon" that we would never actually see in official Dragonball material. Some of it is very particular fanons...

1. Cheelai, Broly's green gal pal, appears for all of five minutes, and she is objectified by a cat god the entire time. I swear this is a sign deviantart has become sentient.
2. Bulma absolutely has been using the dragonballs to appear younger. She literally wishes for a better badunkadonk onscreen.
3. Picolo finally gets his own "super saiyan" form. It is Orange Hulk.
4. Teenage Gotenks is attempted, but flubbed. Teenage Gotenks then is theoretically properly formed, but it is offscreen.
5. Relatedly: the life cycle of a saiyan, that they all stay really short until they are suddenly adult height out of nowhere, is acknowledged.
6. Actual quote: "All the world's strongest fighters are here! And Krillin!"
7. During the serious, climatic battle, a character almost says exactly, "Hey, remember that one move you used in the original Dragonball series? Why don't you use it now?" "Oh, I forgot I could do that for decades!"
8. Yes, Gohan Blanco is absolutely the only explanation for what Gohan does here.
9. And, while I may have misunderstood exactly what was happening there (open to interpretation), on a sweet note, Picolo misunderstands Pan at one point, and seems to genuinely believe he is Pan's grandfather, not Goku. Picolo is like "your grandfather is what...? Oh, right, Goku." It's adorable.
10. And it is a "blink and you miss it" bit, but Android 21/Vomi appears for a tick. Not that anyone was ever shouting about Dragonball FighterZ being noncanon, but it is nice to see her and Gevo "confirmed" in something like this.


I feel like I should have done this post in "two truths and a lie" form, and seen if anyone could guess the lie...
 

SpoonyBard

Threat Rhyme
(He/Him)
So is Cell in the movie or no? I'm sure I saw what looked like a palette swap of his Semi Perfect form in one of the trailers but I'm not sure it wasn't just a fever dream.

Meanwhile in the Super manga we get a new powerup for Freeza, Black Freeza which just feels really unimaginative? Especially since Super already had Goku Black but also it's just kind of lame as a name? Why not Onyx Freeza, or Obsidian Freeza?
 
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gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
So is Cell in the movie or no?

Okay, so the answer is yes, there is a Cell in there. It is "Cell Max". It is gigantic, "activated early", and is little more than a kaiju for everybody to fight. It literally does not speak, and could be replaced with, like, a rampaging Great Ape, and nothing would change. There are other, non-Cell villains in the movie, and they are a lot more interesting.
 
Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero is a big bowl of nostalgia and I ate the whole thing up and loved it.

Random thoughts and things that made me giggle:
  1. In a reversal of normal shonen heroes, Piccolo being angry at Gohan for staying in all the time and not training. Also, a mook asking Gohan about the large shoulder pads on the training gi.
    [*]The fact that Gohan has bad eyesight when not in Super Saiyan and actually needs his glasses.
    [*]Piccolo putting Pan in minimal danger just to motivate Gohan to get off his ass. Oh, and what a splendidly bad idea it is to threaten his daughter!
    [*]The realization that they could have used the dragon balls to just wish Goku and Vegeta back at the end is just great. And yes, Bulma using them for cosmetic surgery is another great use of the nigh omnipotent artifacts.
    [*]Shitting on Krillin is only second to shitting on Yamcha.
    [*]Gohan using Special Beam Cannon to take out Cell Max and Piccolo asking when he learned it brought a little tear to my eye.
    [*]Gamma 1 and 2 were great as "villains" and I want to see more of 1.
    [*]Hedo acknowledging that he knew the entire time that Red Ribbon was bad, he just wanted to fund his research. Oh and the reason he was in prison at the beginning? Reanimating corpses to work at a convenience store.
 

Johnny Unusual

(He/Him)
The Saiyin Saga
AKA The Vegeta Saga

Quick Synopsis

4 years after his last adventure, Goku visits his friends with a surprise... his son Gohan. Much more shy and a bit of a coddled crybaby, Gohan is very different than his father. But suddenly a mysterious and powerful stranger arrives named Raditz... who reveals he is Goku's older brother. Even bigger, he reveals they are aliens from a barbaric warrior race called Saiyins and he was sent to Earth to conquer it as an infant but due to circumstances, never remembered his mission. Raditz takes Gohan hostage in exchange a mountain of human corpses and defeats Goku with ease to drive the point home. Soon after Piccolo arrives, revealing he met the villain and was similarly unable to stop him. The two form an alliance and battle Radtiz, who easily overcomes them. When Goku almost dies, Gohan's sleeping power awakens and surprisingly dwarves everyone else, allowing him to briefly damage Raditz. Goku and Piccolo manage a plan to defeat Raditz, which works at the cost of Goku's life. However, before he dies, Raditz let's the last two surviving Saiyins know... and they'll likely be there in a years time.

The Saiyins, overhearing a message about the Dragonballs, decide to find them to wish for eternal youth and begin heading to Earth. Piccolo, seeing shocking potential in Gohan, decides to train him to stand a chance, while many of Goku's friends train with Kami. Goku, meanwhile, is given his body in the afterlife and before he can be wished back to life by the Dragonballs is to train with Kaio, the King of Worlds. After a long journey on a seemingly endless road, Goku finds his new master on a tiny high-gravity planet and trains new techniques. Everyone is ready as they think they can be by the day the Saiyins arrive, except due to Kaio's miscalculations, he will be late to the battle. Goku is wished to life and rushes to the fight. Meanwhile Piccolo, Gohan, Kuririn, Yamucha, Tienshinhan and Chaotsu arrive to meet the two Saiyins, Nappa and Vegeta. The battle is fierce and despite their best efforts, Yamucha is killed by a Saibaman, one of the synthetic life forms the duo brought along, and Tien and Chaotsu die in valiant efforts to kill Nappa.

Nappa appears nearly invincible and though the surviving trio mostly prove their worth (despite Gohan having feet of clay at a crucial moment), Nappa cannot be stopped and shockingly Piccolo dies to protect Gohan, whom he has grown close to despite his intent. Goku finally arrives and proves to be shockingly powerful, easily defeating Nappa. It is then Vegeta kills Nappa for his weakness and the arrogant "super-elite" Saiyin has a clear advantage. However, one of Goku's newest abilities allows him to temporarily boost his power at risk to his own body, allowing him to keep pace. Vegeta is pushed to his limits like never before and in his anger, he decides to use an artificial moon to transform himself into his Great Ape form. Goku uses his wits to ready his other ability, the Genki Dama, but finds himself thwarted and near death. Gohan and Kuririn, who were earlier asked to return home to recuperate, deduce Goku is in trouble and arrive to help him. Surprisingly, though, it is Yajirobe, who was cowering and watching the fight, who saves the trio by using his sword to chop of Vegeta's tail, returning him to normal. Then Kuririn and Gohan manage to help Goku complete and launch the Genki Dama, albeit at half power. However Vegeta is still alive and though having run out of power is still strong enough to finish our heroes... until Gohan's exposure to the moon transforms HIM into a Great Ape and wrecks Vegeta and even falls on him when Vegeta manages to remove his tail. Vegeta, once proud, is now forced to retreat and while Kuririn had him dead to rights, Goku wanted Vegera alive, by his own admittance for the selfish reason that they may fight again someday. Kuririn reluctantly relents, trusting in his friend.

Story
It's been a long time since I've watched this but revisiting, it actually works pretty well. Like the first Piccolo arc, it doesn't just put the heroes through the wringer, it gets downright brutal, a sort of ragnarok for the series. Granted, starting here, the world is threatened to end with a flick of the wrist from here-on in, but I just mean offing major characters. Now yes, the series comes with a reset button which is dramatically removes (but we all know it will be unremoved eventually) and some of the tension points like killing off characters and waiting for Goku to arrive has been done in the first Piccolo arc (which is almost the first "Z" style arc), it's all really well sold here in terms of drama. I think it helps that from here-on-in, Goku kind of shares lead character status with his son, who is now our entry point character and really has a more noticeable arc than any other character. Yeah, Goku gets stronger but Gohan goes through a LOT and comes out changed. It really does give us the building blocks that lead to the end of his arc in the Cell saga and then a real mixed bag of a continuation in the Buu saga.

It's here where the fights, even more than that last fight with Piccolo at the end of Dragonball, get really drawn out, for better and worse. The thing is, a lot of these epically long fights work best when you are reading through them in manga form, I think. In collections. And I mean that for almost all shounen fight epics. Because when I'm reading them, the tenser they are, the faster I read. I'm controlling the pace. Here, the pacing can suffer and yet the epicness is definitely there. It sells the deaths, the horror of the enemies who just WILL not die, and all that. But watching week to week would make it frustrating, especially when things get drawn out to one plot point to episode. Still, this one moves better than I remember but with Vegeta pushed to the brink early on, then spending the rest of it being delivered finisher after finisher that will not bring him down for good makes it kind of exhausting. I kind of like it thematically though, which I'll get into.

I will use this time to say I think that... I think the filler is largely good? Some of it's bad but most of it does what it needs to. In the original manga, there's little time between the Raditz fight and the Saiyin one and I appreciate things slowing down a bit to make it feel like the year is a bit of a journey for these characters. Heck, when Gohan is first left alone in the wilds, he's sort of clumsily futzing around, bringing home the point of how far he needs to go. And there are lots of great character moments, like a bored Yamucha enjoying a baseball brawl (I like that him being a baseball guy became canonical with Super) and even Goku going to Hell is a fun little time waster. I wish they were this much fun and gave us breathing room in Dragonball instead of being some dull padding.

Animation
Pretty great. It's Toei so it's not like it's doing super amazing stuff, the direction and editing know how to make a sudden turn in the fight or a death feel like it matters.

Themes
For a lot of the series before and after, Goku is the guy who can singlehandedly solve problems. He values his friends and sometimes they pull his fat out of the fire but first and foremost he is the hero saving everyone. And once again, he arrives more powerful than ever. But in some way, in this arc, Vegeta is Goku's Goku. Goku meets powerful foes who underestimate him and Goku keeps getting back up and outlasting them. Now it's Goku's turn and he actually can't do this on his own. Vegeta believes only in his strength but Goku ends up relying on his friends whom are definitely weaker and manage to squeak out a win with the help of weak coward Yajirobe (remember when he first arrived AS STRONG AS GOKU?!). It's friendship and faith and tenacity that get them through. They don't just muscle threw it, staying in an "unwinnable" fight lets them see small opportunities and they need to exploit each one to win. "Never give up" is a cliche but a good shounen fight like this sells it. As good as a lot of the fights are in this series and as much as I like seeing Goku smush arrogant monsters, I really love that Goku doesn't really "win" this fight, the whole gang does bit by bit and it's forging the path to the Cell Saga ending, which, again, really feels like the series natural ending point (again, I'm not trying to knock the Buu saga. I think it's a mess in a lot of ways but it also has a lot of good points and ideas).

The saga also introduces "power levels" which makes sense in this arc and then is over-used as the series goes on. Here, the point is that the saiyins reduce strength to a number but our heroes, while weaker, are more spiritual, in their way. They sense ki and they fight even when the numbers say "don't". The numbers aren't wrong, our heroes are in way over their heads numbers aren't the end all. But then the series keeps doing it. It's great for the arc, bad once we get to Frieza where is just feels like people are trying to acquire bigger numbers (see also Shaman King).

Jokes
Far fewer but there are some good ones.

Characters
So the new major characters are Gohan, Vegeta and Kaio. I guess I could mention Nappa and Raditz but... naw. Despite Raditz being Goku's brother, he and Nappa aren't even thought of again once they are gone. So Kaio is just another in a line of quirky mentors for Goku but I think he works better than Karin. He's not my favourite but I appreciate what he brings (and I love the running gag in Super that Goku just keeps forgetting to bring him back to life). Vegeta is a character who becomes great but I feel like the Dragonball villains don't become great until after they are beaten. After all, though Piccolo isn't new, before he's an arrogant dick but his relationship with Gohan starts here and his death scene is really moving. Vegeta becomes more interesting when he's this weird villain who just happens to hang around and MARRY one of the lead characters despite still being an awful monster and slowly mellows while still having a chip on his shoulder.

I feel like that's one interesting point between evil Piccolo and Vegeta, they are both the kind of arrogant jerks who think they want a challenge until they get one and their pride is damaged. Both mellow somewhat but in different ways; Piccolo puts on an angry show and is curt but he's full of love. Vegeta is, even when he's a better person who the other characters sort of trust, just filled with bitterness about losing his status as "strongest" despite being one of the most powerful being and being INCREASINGLY powerful. But that character hasn't materialized yet. Mostly he's in the same mode as Piccolo when he was bad. The only difference is it's clear that the Saiyins, despite using ki, only think of it as some weapon of brute force. It's clear being able to think in terms beyond that is what allows our heroes to win rather than thinking in numbers.

But again, I feel like it's Gohan's tale and he's the break out. I could get fans not liking him early on; he's a cry baby and at a crucial moment he falters. But the point is he isn't his dad but that's OK. Gohan has value and he ends up contributing and it goes beyond occasionally raging, he makes real choices to help. He's not as flashy and fun as his dad, but I feel like this almost becomes a co-lead with his dad (though they are almost living parallel lives).

Action and Adventure!

Again, the fights go on REALLY long. Taken as individual segments and as an epic it often works but the Nappa fight goes on TOO long. There's good stuff in there and once half the cast is dead, the tension is appropriately racheted to make characters trying to strategize around an unstoppable force interesting. Goku vs. Vegeta is good but surprisingly it's almost a small part and the real meat is the desperation of three hurt heroes (and Yajirobe) desperately trying to finish off this guy. And all the beats work but it could pick up the pace at times. Still, Vegeta gets more than one cathartic beat down, my favourite being one I forgot; just being crushed by a really big Gohan.
 

SpoonyBard

Threat Rhyme
(He/Him)
New Dragon Ball anime coming next year.


Considering Dragon Ball Super was quickly catching up to when GT would start in the timeline I suppose it's not out of the question Toriyama would want to do a GT do-over, but except this time the entire cast turns into kids!
 
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