I can play IBM PC Jr. games, and their graphics, to this day without any problem. I don't think early 00s games will bother me much.
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Teach me about CRPGs
- Thread starter Kazin
- Start date
I have had a great time reading the CRPG book Bongo linked to. It's a pretty great resource for CRPG rookies like myself - it has various mods and recommendations for settings listed for games where it would help a lot, and the articles, while short, explain pretty well what the game is about and seem to be pretty honest about what to expect about each game. It's made me want to play a bunch of games - I hope they can be made to run on Steam Deck (since many use DOSbox, who knows on that front), but even if they don't, I might give them a shot anyway. It's even made me interested in the earlier Elder Scrolls games (I've only played Skyrim), which I didn't even realize were CRPGs (I thought all CRPGs were isometric turn based games, a notion I've quickly learned is wrong since making this thread lol)!
ohhhhh yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Gonna fiddle with this to see if I can get Wacky Wheels running properly, for one, then keep it in mind for any of these CRPGs eventually. Thank you!
EDIT: Gonna tag @Sarge here, too, so he sees that video since he helped me get Diablo running in the Steam Deck thread haha
Well, I do actually own Morrowind on PC already, but I always intended to play that, even if I hadn't realized before making this thread it was a CRPG lol. The CRPG book made me interested in Arena and Daggerfall, games that looked, uh, not great from what little I saw of them before
I remember when Morrowind came out on the original Xbox - all my Xbox friends said it was incredible, so I've always been curious about it. Just haven't gotten around to it, I guess.
I remember when Morrowind came out on the original Xbox - all my Xbox friends said it was incredible, so I've always been curious about it. Just haven't gotten around to it, I guess.
I thought you were specifically interested in the isometric turn based or real time with pause based games, but if your interest is broader absolutely play Morrowind. I think it's the best video game RPG I've ever played, and it's one of the very few video games that has good writing both on its own merits and also in terms of taking full advantage of the medium of the open world RPG to tell a story.
If you do, consider playing it through OpenMW. This is a game engine recreation that makes the game run with more stability on a modern system and includes as standard many of the bugfixes you'd have to install multiple mods to achieve otherwise. (This is not a port and you still have to acquire the game itself. edit: looks like you already own it, great!) With OpenMW, Morrowind is arguably easier to run these days than more recent Elder Scrolls games like Oblivion or Skyrim, since this works as something close to an all-in-one fix instead of requiring a dozen discrete mods to fix major outstanding bugs.
NOTE: The top post on the OpenMW page right now is an April Fool's joke about how they're converting OpenMW so that Morrowind runs like a Baldur's Gate style real time with pause RPG. Look at the FAQ for more information.
I have no doubt that Top Men will be hard at work making sure Morrowind can run really well on the Steam Deck.
OpenMW has a flatpak download, too, which means it will work on Steam Deck (and since I own Morrowind on Steam already, I assume I'll have to move some files around, but can run it). Hooray! And thanks! I hadn't gotten to Morrowind in the CRPG book yet, and "best video game RPG I've ever played" is pretty high praise haha
I do think Morrowind probably works better as a Mouse and Keyboard game, if that effects whether or not you play it on Steam Deck. Controller support really feels like an afterthought that is technically functional at best.
(I'm sure there are people who swear that it's better with a controller, and maybe you'll find this to be the case, but it's not a common view...)
(I'm sure there are people who swear that it's better with a controller, and maybe you'll find this to be the case, but it's not a common view...)
Well, I've been using a bluetooth mouse with Wasteland 2 since that's vastly preferable* (and I do own a bluetooth keyboard, too, but at that point I may as well use my desktop PC lol), but I'll see how Morrowind works on controller first. Given the people I knew in highschool that swore by the Xbox version, it must be at least playable on controller, at least, I'd think.
*what's weird about it is that I prefer using my left hand to hold the Steam Deck and use the control stick to move the camera around, while using the mouse to interact with the menus/control characters/deal with battles rather than using full on keyboard and mouse on my desktop PC.
*what's weird about it is that I prefer using my left hand to hold the Steam Deck and use the control stick to move the camera around, while using the mouse to interact with the menus/control characters/deal with battles rather than using full on keyboard and mouse on my desktop PC.
Oh, weird. Is it heavy on hotkey usage, or would I be alright with a Steam Deck+mouse only setup, you think? I mean, whatever, I intend to play it either way, but it'd be cool if I could play it on Steam Deck and switch to the desktop PC if the TV is free or whatever.
Sarge
hardcore retro gamin'
I installed it myself, and there are Steam Controller profiles for it. I didn't play very long, but it seemed functional. You can also apparently run it through Luxtorpeda and openmw, but I haven't done much research to see what improvements that brings to the table.
I wasn't expecting to like the trackpads very much on the Deck, but they've been quite usable for me. I don't know that I'd want it for stuff that requires a lot of drag-to-select stuff like RTS, but it seems really great for just point-and-click shenanigans.
I wasn't expecting to like the trackpads very much on the Deck, but they've been quite usable for me. I don't know that I'd want it for stuff that requires a lot of drag-to-select stuff like RTS, but it seems really great for just point-and-click shenanigans.
John
(he/him)
I finished Planescape Torment for the first time a couple months ago, after starting and stopping a dozen times over the years. I would get burned out because as other people said, there is an optimal way to play it to get the most EXP for your character. I'd get stuck in a min/max mode, saving and trying every encounter over again to find the best path, or just googling what I should be picking. I finally said enough was enough, and made a hard rule for myself to not savescum or look up anything else, and I had much more fun with the rest of the game. I didn't play it the best, but I had some experiences that were unique, and made better because I made my own decisions.
It was still very hard to do, coming from a console RPG mindset of being able to always experience everything just by talking to all NPCs twice. I wasn't able to break my item hoarding tendencies though, and spent most of the run with the same items in my inventory, never using them. Next CRPG I play, that's my new goal to add to the playstyle. Use the things, don't worry about doing everything the "right way", just keep moving forward.
It was still very hard to do, coming from a console RPG mindset of being able to always experience everything just by talking to all NPCs twice. I wasn't able to break my item hoarding tendencies though, and spent most of the run with the same items in my inventory, never using them. Next CRPG I play, that's my new goal to add to the playstyle. Use the things, don't worry about doing everything the "right way", just keep moving forward.
Honestly I wish that we would get a modern remaster of Morrowind 'cuz console tech and UI stuff has advanced a lot since the original Xbox. The controls are not very good.
I know there are groups out there recreating both Daggerfall and Morrowind in the Skyrim engine. I don't know how far along they are...
Last I checked the Daggerfall game was main quest complete but everything else was pretty bare.
Last I checked the Daggerfall game was main quest complete but everything else was pretty bare.
I struggle with this, too. I savescum a lot in Wasteland 2, primarily when lockpicking and safecracking, mostly to avoid a Critical Failure, which occur pretty frequently, probably because I bottomed out my luck stat on all my characters lol. Otherwise, it's pretty rare - I usually stick with whatever decisions I make and try to play through it, like when I forgot my handgun user also had the leadership skill leveled pretty high, which boosts accuracy for companions near her, and had the Mannerites lock her up for a couple quests, resulting in several fights without that bonus accuracy. I got through it, though.
Are there any that haven't been discussed already?
Well, the aforementioned Elder Scrolls 1 and 2, but I'd also like to try some of the older Wizardry games - I liked Labyrinth of Lost Souls, and the book made the earlier ones seem pretty cool. Some of the Might & Magic games look like I might enjoy them, I want to try the original Wasteland now, Exile: Escape from the Pit (though I think this was mentioned, the book made it sound even cooler).
That's about as far as I got in the book, somewhere in the late 90s. I'm sure there will be plenty more I want to play by the time I finish the book.
Adventure games are another genre I'm almost completely unfamiliar with. Other than the Phoenix Wright games, I haven't really played any of them - not a single SCUMM game, for example! I'll probably start with those, first, if I ever play adventure games, not Quest for Glory, which kind of sounded underwhelming based on the entry in the CRPG book from an RPG perspective (it seemed like more of an adventure game than an RPG).
Read some more, added the following games to my wishlist:
- Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines
- Anachronox
- Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
- Wizardry 8
And I bought Jagged Alliance 2 Gold (which apparently can be patched with various fan mods and such) which happened to be on sale for $3.99, down from $20.
I also didn't know there's an Icewind Dale 2 - it sounded good in the book, but there doesn't seem to be a version on Steam (only on GOG, which doesn't play nice with Steam Deck), and no enhanced edition. Is it bad?
John
(he/him)
Anachronox is much more of a Console style RPG than a Computer one. It's good, but it's a different experience than the rest.
I enjoyed the first Wizardry on the NES port, but never played any of the sequels. They're the archetypical dungeon crawler, so if you've tried Etrian Odyssey you know what to expect (except you have to map it on your own graph paper). The Might & Magic main series were also like this, and I think M&M 4+5 combined together is the most well regarded one of those. There's also the Heroes of Might & Magic games, but those are in the Strategy genre.
I suggest just rolling the dice and trying one that you have, and if it doesn't work for you, move on. Tons of computer RPGs were just trying to emulate the tabletop experience without having the computing power to do so. They can be fun from a historical perspective, but also frustrating because they were limited with what they can do. Also, so much of the games are going to require keyboard inputs just because that was the main input device available, which may limit the fun of playing on a Steam Deck.
I enjoyed the first Wizardry on the NES port, but never played any of the sequels. They're the archetypical dungeon crawler, so if you've tried Etrian Odyssey you know what to expect (except you have to map it on your own graph paper). The Might & Magic main series were also like this, and I think M&M 4+5 combined together is the most well regarded one of those. There's also the Heroes of Might & Magic games, but those are in the Strategy genre.
I suggest just rolling the dice and trying one that you have, and if it doesn't work for you, move on. Tons of computer RPGs were just trying to emulate the tabletop experience without having the computing power to do so. They can be fun from a historical perspective, but also frustrating because they were limited with what they can do. Also, so much of the games are going to require keyboard inputs just because that was the main input device available, which may limit the fun of playing on a Steam Deck.
Yeah, the CRPG book basically just has any RPG released for a PC in it (I just read an entry for Tales in the Sky, for example - yes, that was originally developed for PCs, but it is not what I think of when I hear the term CRPG lol). Anachronox sounds like a JRPG, basically, which I've always loved, so I put it on the list.
Yeah, I'm coming at this having played all the Etrian Odyssey games, so Wizardry seems pretty cool. The only one I've played is Labyrinth of Lost Souls, which I liked. Apparently, a lot of these old games have automap mods, which I might try out if I get fatigued on making my own maps. And for whatever reason the Might & Magic series isn't grabbing me even though many of the entries in the book go to bat for it. Not really sure why I'm not being grabbed by them.
Yeah, I have a desktop PC if I get addicted to a game and want to play it with keyboard and mouse, and worst case scenario I have bluetooth keyboard and mouse anyway for Steam Deck.
The book is wrong. QFG games are fantastic. Consistently underrated both as Adventure games and as RPGs.
+1. That said, they do have more adventure DNA than RPG, but you can approach them in multiple ways -- if you'd rather not deal with problem-solving, play as a fighter, and if you'd rather all the puzzles be easily solved by the same five spells, play as a magic user.
There is no EE for Icewind Dale 2 because the source code was lost. It's probably my personal favorite of the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games, however it's very divisive. It was the last Infinity Enginge game had an infamously rushed development. It was also the first game that shipped by lead designer Josh Sawyer, who had a lot of things he wanted to try.
It's a very ambitious game that pushes the limits of the Infinity Engine. It implements Third Edition D&D rules (expanding character creation and party building options significantly), and some of the team who had worked on Planescape Torment wanted to implement more complex interactions with NPCs and the environment. It's still basically a linear dungeon crawler, but relative to other Infinity Engine games you're much more likely to have a party member's non-combat skills help you to solve a dungeon puzzle or present an alternative path forward by having a unique class based or skill based way to interact with an NPC.
It's also very divisive. Difficulty was tuned with the assumption that most players were familiar with BG1&2 and the first Icewind Dale and the expansions to those games. I think the difficulty is ID2 is overstated and that the most unfair encounters are all in the back half of BG2. I don't think anything in ID2 comes close to those, but it does ask for a basic mastery of systems fairly early on instead of easing you in. Also, some of the more experimental and ambitious ideas push the limits of the Infinity Engine in a way that came across to some players as janky. For example, there's a time loop sequence that I thought was really clever, but there are a lot of "lazy devs!!!" style complaints about asset reuse or whatever that personally I find totally misguided.
Josh Sawyer did a video blog where he gave his thoughts on how it went, if you're interested:
I think he sells his own game short, personally! Note that he went on to direct and design the Pillars of Eternity games that played a significant role in the modern revival of interest in this genre, which are in this same style and are more universally praised.
That was fascinating, thanks. Can't believe how often you hear about the source code getting lost for games. I'll look into getting Icewind Dale 2 eventually. I do intend on playing the Baldur's Gate games, Icewind Dale 1, and Planescape: Torment first, though, which will hopefully set me up for a reasonable experience difficulty-wise with ID2.
Anyone here played Temple of Elemental Evil? It was made by Troika and I know it used a new 3d engine, was the first game to use 3.5 Edition rules. AND it's the only game set in the Greyhawk setting (which I believe is the original D&D setting?)