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Tactics Ogre Reborn - Mama, I just killed an ogre...

Pajaro Pete

(He/Himbo)
Couple of big changes:
A lot of the action skills from the PSP version now just have a chance of automatically proccing at the beginning of a unit's turn, so instead of your mages using Meditate every turn before attacking, Meditate will randomly fire off when that unit's turn is coming up.
Parry and Counterattack seem to be tied specifically to Weapons themselves with no related Skills. On the other hand, the Lobber weapons have been removed and replaced with a Lobber skill.
If you bring characters at the current level cap into training, any EXP they would have been rewarded with now gets put into an EXP Charm so it won't be wasted.
The video I watched only talked about Chapter 1 but apparently special item drops are guaranteed instead of being RNG-based.
 
After watching videos about this, I've been playing the original Ogre Battle again. It's is a really weird game!

When I was a kid, I thought it was really difficult because I was too dumb to understand how to regroup the units into effective parties, so I would lose all the fights. Now, I know how to win all the fights and realize they're mostly set up to be steam-rollable if you put a little thought into it, but that's its own problem because the actual game is often about how to avoid turning all of your party members into murder-hobos.

Chris Remo and the others on Idle Thumbs used to joke about the ridiculous number of people that you kill in basically any video game is if you step back and think about it and how the narratives and gameplay fail to reflect that, and playing this reminds me of that, because it's a weird hybrid JRPG/RTS/simulation hybrid where if you act like a normal JRPG character it will drop your Charisma and Alignment to 0 and severely limits class promotion options and make all the townspeople think (correctly) that you're a bloodthirsty goon when you "liberate" them.

At the same time, you need to get into some fights or you'll be underlevelled. So a lot of the experience is about figuring out a plan to quickly get in and out of a map while liberating a few towns without getting dragged into a back and forth quagmire over territory you can't hold, winning enough fights to look like an underdog and gain some but not too many levels, then making a beeline to the boss so you don't accidentally end up killing dozens of mooks.

This weirdly makes it feel pretty breezy if things are going well, because you really want to get in and out of those maps. (Maybe this changes later on? I just beat the Black Knight. I've never actually finished this game before, even though I have very fond memories of it...)
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
Ogre Battle (PSX) was one of my "few" games when I was a teenager (it was a comparatively lean time for me and gaming), and it is naturally divided into bite-sized play sessions, so I played it a whole bunch. I never once successfully achieved any kind of "balance" between being blood thirsty (but winning) vs. being charismatic (but always too weak). I tried playing it all again as an adult, thinking I would do better now that I know what I am doing... and I still failed. May as well just recruit that one demon dude and be done with it...

I like the game! I like it a lot! I just have never been any good at what it wants me to do.
 

Regulus

Sir Knightbot
Yeah, it's a good idea to have a "face" squad of high ALI units like Paladins and the like that go from town to town doing the actual "liberation", while your powerful low ALI squads keep enemy units at bay.
 
Yeah, it's a good idea to have a "face" squad of high ALI units like Paladins and the like that go from town to town doing the actual "liberation", while your powerful low ALI squads keep enemy units at bay.

This is true but also requires some degree of management even for the special ops teams. On the third (or so) map, there's a quest to recruit Canopus where you have to go back and forth between a bunch of towns (or I guess know in advance what towns are important and keep units stationed there). I needed a squad to hold off the enemies while doing that quest and by the time the map was over multiple units in that squad were already at literally 0 for Charisma and Alignment. Unfortunately a lot of even low alignment or low charisma promotions want some of either, so they're kind of sitting on the sidelines getting war crimes therapy until enemies start to be at levels high enough to potentially get them out of the hole of being overlevelled in intro classes.
 
I've been letting various previews of this run in the background, and I think this is the most comprehensive video, by someone very familiar with the series in particular, rather than being a reviewer in general.


Ogre Battle is still fun. I've gotten pretty good at managing Chaos Frame, Charisma, and Alingment now, but by the time that happened the protagonist was already a lost cause. I rolled the evil lord (poison and ghost based attacks), so it's not fixable by just killing a ghost unit even. Even equipping a holy weapon won't override the element. So, I get all the events for the army being popular, but miss all the things that happen when your character is personally good, which probably means I'm on the path to become a tyrant. Oh well! I'm glad I'm finally going through it and go the hang of it instead of having a good time and giving up halfway through.

Also, watching some other videos on that same channel, there was a raelly unsatisfying video about the Saturn port of Ogre Battle where they couldn't get it to turn well enough to say much but posted it anyway. This lead me down a rabbit hole reading Japanese wikis and message board posts from the late 90s comparing the Playstation and Saturn releases for a future playthrough where I am not to have a protagonist with terrible alignment, since I'm going with the original now.

If those wikis and old message boards can be believed, it looks like the Saturn version is the definitive one:
  • Does not include bugs introduced in PSX version (particularly resistances were screwed up there—a unit that you promote from Fighter or Amazon keeps those weak resistances even after promotion, while on the other hand in your favor if you equip and unequip armor they keep those resistances permanently and you can repeat this, so you can either be incredibly underpowered or invincible, depending on whether you're aware of these bugs)
  • Has the same QOL changes introduced in the PSX version (better menu interface, waypoints to set more complex travel routes, etc)
  • Significantly reduces the number of enemies per stage (maybe this helps to prevent the issue of destroying ALI/CHA when you take a lot of tries to wear down a boss and have to kill a dozen respawning normal guys in the process)—I only found one source for this and it was a message board and not a wiki, so maybe this is not true, but I would like it to be... hmmm.
  • Visual improvements (I guess it's debatable whether or not this is an improvement, but I think it's very much in the line of strong Saturn era sprite work) and voice acting for major characters
  • Extra stages (many with somewhat obscure requirements, so very optional if you'd rather just stick to the vanilla game)
 
Question: Would anyone here recommend playing the original Tactics Ogre (or one of the ports to PSX or Saturn with more or less the same systems)? How does it hold up and does it have anything in particular to recommend it that felt lost by the PSP port that is the basis for Reborn's rebalancing? It seems like however Reborn turns out the original is going to more or less be its own distinct thing. Like Ogre Battle, it's one of those games I have fond memories of but never finished because I couldn't figure it out and don't remember very well.
 

Regulus

Sir Knightbot
I would say the original is still worth playing with the caveat that it's a game from 1995 and some of the game design is less "evolved".

I'd actually argue that the original is superior to Unmei no Wa in a lot of ways, but it has its own foibles. It's significantly more difficult than the remake, particularly in the early game where a single level has a proportionally huge impact on stats, let alone 2-3 levels. Coupled with automatic, full strength counter attacks and a death system closer to Fire Emblem, it's a lot more unforgiving than the later release. It has per-action EXP (like FFT) and this does scale depending on the level difference, but it's often not enough to keep units from falling behind, forcing you into the training mode between story battles. It's significantly faster to raise an under level unit than it is to raise a brand new class in the PSP version, however.

Character building is a different beast. Levels are individual rather than classed based, and gaining a level while in a given class grants stat growth unique to that class. Classes are (mostly) unlocked by reaching stat breakpoints and are restricted based on unit gender and alignment. Over the game, the classes that a unit has gained levels in will have a large impact on how they perform in combat -- a terror knight that has spent time as a ninja will have much better hit rates than a terror knight that spent most of its levels in berserker, for example. Whether this is a good thing is kind of debatable. It's not that hard to break the game by prioritizing AGI growths, because it's a pretty loaded stat.

Overall, though, I would argue that it's mostly better balanced than the PSP version. PSP's "everything and the kitchen sink" approach kinda flattens things a bit, despite there being more options overall. For example, PSP clerics are almost completely invalidated by shared inventory, the lobber, and in-battle grimoire use. In the SNES version, on the other hand, units have to carry consumables on their person (only 4 item slots, shared with equipment), there is no lobber, and spell scrolls are equipment rather than consumables. Specialist classes just don't feel that important in the PSP version. Another negative impact of the skill system is... the AI doesn't actually know how to use most active skills, but it will waste resources to use them anyway. I don't know if the AI is actually any more sophisticated in the original, but the lack of "bad" options certainly makes it feel that way.

I could write a book on all of the other notable differences, but I think from here I'm just going to list a few things:
  • Unique equipment is more fun to find in the original. Drops are guaranteed and there are no level restrictions on equipment, so you can use cool stuff as soon as you find it.
  • A lot of classes and equipment grant passive effects. Terror Knights have a passive "fear" effect that weakens enemy units within two spaces of them, Dragoons and a handful of swords do bonus damage to dragons automatically, and gear like Flying Boots work just by equipping them. On PSP, all of these have been moved to skills that require activation.
  • Equipment is unrestricted. Exorcists can equip heavy armor, knights can use bows, ninja can wield heavy battle axes, etc. Instead of restrictions, classes have preferred weapons; valkyrie favor spears, for example. When attacking with a preferred weapon, they'll receive a small bonus to the damage and will perform a special animation instead of the standard attack.
  • Permadeath is much more unforgiving. Characters die when they reach 0 HP, and are removed from the battlefield. If they're not revived before the end of the battle, they're dead forever. And revival options are extremely limited. For most of the game, your only option is Blessing Stones, which work by automatically reviving the holder if they fall in battle. They're also rare. You eventually acquire the Revivify spell, which only the Priest class can use. The spell is pretty forgiving, at least (there's no time limit as long as you rez the dead unit before the end of the battle). Though... IIRC, it's actually possible to miss it on the L route.

I imagine this would be the case anyway, but if you do decide to play it, I recommend the Japanese version. The English localization feels like it's been edited significantly just to fit in the text boxes and has some pretty goofy lines. As far as I'm aware, the existing SNES translation patch just applies the PSX translation.

Also, FWIW, everything I've seen about Reborn makes it seem like it's almost as significant a departure from the PSP version as the PSP version was from the original. The underlying battle mechanics appears to be mostly the same as PSP, but some of the internal math appears to work slightly different, and the new level and skill system looks like it will have a pretty significant effect on class balance. Passives equipment effects are back and level restrictions are gone. A significant number of the changes appear to be intended to move the experience closer to the original, as well. I think that when all is said and done, there are probably going to be plenty of reasons to prefer one version over another. Neither of the remakes will completely invalidate any of the previous releases.
 
Thank you for the detailed explanation.

Yeah, I'd play Tactics Ogre in Japanese and that's also part of why Reborn kind of does invalidate the PSP version for me. One thing I do know is that there were significant bug fixes and rebalancing done to the PSP game outside of Japan, and these were never patched into Japanese release. As a result, the game has a much worse reputation among people who play it in the original language. (It's one of those games where people talk about how it's actually good ... if you play it in English.) So, it's a much lower priority for me, because I want to play it in the language it was written, even if the localization is good. Based on that detailed writeup, I think I'd want to try the original at least once before trying Reborn so I can appreciate the changes, and also at that point it will probably be 50% off on sale like most SquareEnix games that are a year old or so.

Also, I finished Ogre Battle. It went pretty quickly because I accidentally did a kind of speed run. To not tank everyone's ALI and CHA, I only really "played" once in every 4-5 maps as a strategy game, and most maps I just kept one strong unit at the base, sent a second strong unit directly to the enemy base, zig zagged a bit to avoid the spawns close to the base and killed the unprotected boss, and then the map was done in a few minutes. You get less money, but you're only fielding two units and aren't using consumables to keep anyone alive so you still get more than you know what to do with except to buy expensive stat boosting items at the end. They combination of the way the game catapults you up to the enemy level and the ridiculous number of enemy spawns meant basically that it's not only viable but much easier to just have most of your army sit out the majority of maps.

I ended up getting the Chariot ending which is relatively good, because apparently the range for a good/normal/bad ending is calculated by adding up Chaos Frame (=Reputation) and the protagonist's Alignment score, contrary to a lot of English language guides that suggest you need a minimum alignment to get certain endings. So, 100 Chaos Frame and 0 Alignment meant my character ended up the new ruler's general, which seemed fitting for someone who ran a popular military campaign even if he was a bad person.

I briefly dipped into the Saturn version and I can now confirm something I only saw on one Japanese message board discussion from 1999: Saturn Ogre Battle significantly reduces the number of enemy spawns!!! This makes it possible to play it more naturally as a strategy game without getting overlevelled! If anything, the problem here might now be raising high CHA low ALI units like wizards and ninjas because you would have to make a real effort to tank alignment, but they were always somewhat tricky so I don't think this is a big deal. Also, this is alleviated somewhat because it immediately displays a message every time ALI or CHA shift (just like the level up messages), so you can know if something you don't want is happening and take someone off of the map, shift them into a role with less fighting like city protection of an area enemy units don't seem to hit much, or avoid certain enemy types. I can see someone preferring the original version because this definitely makes the game a lot easier, but it also feels more like I'm finally able to play it in a natural way instead of finding loopholes in the system. Maybe they reduced enemy spawns a bit too much, but it's hard to judge until I see what later stages are like. (Maybe they made a decision to keep numbers extra low for the small early maps, or something.)
 
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Pajaro Pete

(He/Himbo)
New feature just dropped:
7b72LYA.jpeg


Certain items, seemingly almost all obtained from bonus/post game areas like the Palace of the Dead, are considered Relics. If you have two or more of the same type of Relic, you can fuse them together to improve the relic's attributes (like damage type, elemental affinities, and racial bonus damage), but on the other hand Relic fusion doesn't seem to improve any of the item's raw stats or stat bonuses (presumably to give Snapdragons a reason to exist). I guess we'll find out if this is a good addition, a broken mechanic, or a grim portent of what some of the bonus challenges being added to this game will play out (it's probably not this one because I was misremembering: Romancing SaGa Remastered was the game that had "New more challenging content as a back of box bullet point, not Tactics Ogre) as when Tactics Ogre Reborn launches this Friday.
 
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Regulus

Sir Knightbot
All of the relics they've show so far were painfully tedious to acquire rare drops in the PSP version. If they're expecting you to acquire multiple, that at least implies that they should be easier to come by.
 

Pajaro Pete

(He/Himbo)
Hmmm looks like Matsuno talked about it on twitter and said that players should think of it as a bonus element so it won't feel like a waste if you get multiple copies of a super rare piece of gear.
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
I was all determined to get this tomorrow and have a good time, but now I am wavering between it and Triangle Strategy; I bought TS when it came out and still haven't played it beyond its original demo. It feels a little foolish of me to play yet another remake of Tactics Ogre while I still haven't played an acclaimed modern successor to Tactics Ogre...
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
Not gonna tell you what to do, but I find I have a lot easier time with playing a game where I already marginally know "the systems" than something that is completely new. This is doubly true for a TRPG. Also, this is why I own seventeen copies of Final Fantasy 4, but have yet to get around to playing Lost Odyssey.
 
Also with the major gameplay changes it feels like outside of the story it's now a fundamentally new game, relative to either the SFC or PSP versions.

(Although I say this as someone who never finished the SFC game and never played the PSP game but who has let a lot of YouTube videos about changes to Reborn run in the background while doing chores, so what do I know, but that's the impression I get... )
 

Regulus

Sir Knightbot
Yeah, this is almost as much a remake of the PSP version as the PSP version was of the original. Mechanically, it feels like they were aiming for something in between the two previous versions. Based on the number of people lamenting the price, I think a lot are underestimating how much work went into this version.
 
Yeah, this is almost as much a remake of the PSP version as the PSP version was of the original. Mechanically, it feels like they were aiming for something in between the two previous versions. Based on the number of people lamenting the price, I think a lot are underestimating how much work went into this version.

Yeah I think there's a definitely misconception (not so much here, where we're abnormally familiar with this series, but elsewhere) that this is like a port of the PSP version, which it is definitely not. I strongly recommend the CoffeePotato preview video I embedded above for more details, and presumably his long review (split into a ~20 minute video for a general overview and an hour and a half video about mechanical changes relative to previous versions) out today although I haven't watched it yet.
 

Pajaro Pete

(He/Himbo)
Trip report: Tactics Ogre Reborn.... is good, actually. Finished Chapter 1. Level curve seems pretty smooth, I didn't need to do any training (and did the Nybeth fight right after the Kysaro fight). Ganpp and Nybeth were the most difficult battles - the birdies can really shred your back line up, and Nybeth is just... extreme terrain disadvantage: the map.

The voice acting is better than I was expecting from the promo clips, except for Lanselot T, whose voice direction feels a bit more... toady to the big bad? I dunno, I expected him to sound sinister but in a cool way.

I do think the new sprites look pretty ugly when the camera is in close, which is unfortunately like every story scene, but generally look fine in the midrange battle view.
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
I see the Nybeth fight is still as tedious as ever.

Really not a fan of the smear job they did on the sprites. Cannot fathom why anyone would think this is better than straight pixels.
 

Regulus

Sir Knightbot
It is straight pixels. They doubled the dimensions (4x the pixels), probably algorithmically as a base, but it's clear by looking at them that they were done at least partially by hand. They're not filtered.

Whether they look good is another question. I would have preferred the original sprites, but these look way better than any typical upscale.
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
It is straight pixels. They doubled the dimensions (4x the pixels), probably algorithmically as a base, but it's clear by looking at them that they were done at least partially by hand. They're not filtered.
I am not knowledgeable enough to express what I'm talking about more precisely. But you know what I meant. "Low resolution" pixels? Pixel art? idk what you're supposed to call it.
 

Regulus

Sir Knightbot
Hard to say. I doubt it was Eagle or 2xSaI, though. I threw Denam's original sprite through a few basic upscale methods for comparison.

z1TWbER.png


I pulled the Reborn sprite from a screenshot I took of the world map and used a pixel brush to isolate it, so the outline is probably not accurate. Reborn seems to apply a stroke to the sprites in some cases, too, which I think looks awkward on the unit roster in particular.
 
I didn't like them in stills but (in capture for reviews at least, will not play this until I get around to the SFC original first) think they look fine in motion.

I'd never choose this style, but I think they did about as good of a job as possible with the smoother is better approach.
Cannot fathom why anyone would think this is better than straight pixels.

Matsuno did like ~10+ hours streaming this and during that he talked about how he thinks this looks better on big monitors when the question came up. I disagree, but that's the premise.

Unfortunately I don't really love either this or Triangle Strategy's HD-2D approach (sprites are good, but too busy with stupid 3D effects and image processing) or this. I guess what it comes down to is that I think the original Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics look better than either of these modern approaches, but unfortunately it seems like that's just not on the table...
 

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
Matsuno did like ~10+ hours streaming this and during that he talked about how he thinks this looks better on big monitors when the question came up. I disagree, but that's the premise.
Literally unfathomable to me.
 
Literally unfathomable to me.

My memory is that there was also an interview (on Kotaku?) like this about the old iOS ports of Final Fantasy V and VI. The interviewer brought up the negative reception to the visuals, and the Square-Enix person was like, "But we made it look better, didn't we...?"
 

Regulus

Sir Knightbot
That was actually an interview about the Steam port of Chrono Trigger, as I recall. Which I want to say was definitely a simple upscale.

It is worth mentioning that the pixel art in the FFV and VI iOS ports was done by the same person that did the original games' pixel art - Kazuko Shibuya. She's explained in interviews before that the original sprites look the way they do because she designed them with the quirks of CRTs in mind, and that redoing them for modern displays required a completely different approach.

I'm not surprised that there's a disconnect in expectations between some of people that made these games and the people that grew up with them. For us, the low resolution, high color contrast look of 16-bit era sprites is "the way it's supposed to be", whereas for them it was just part of the limitations of the medium (both hardware and display).
 
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