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So the Mandalorian got me thinking about The Force... (probably massive spoilers)

air_show

air_show

elementary my dear baxter
Ok so I watched the Mandalorian recently, late to the party on account of I just don't make the time to watch shows as often as I used to. And I loved it. I thought it was pretty wonderful start to finish, and though there were things that didn't sit right with me by the end of Season 2 I nevertheless am still hopeful that the trend of quality will continue and that these things that don't sit right are just setup for further story.

You know, I'm enjoying the product of an overly powerful and poisonous corporate entity like a good citizen and shit.

Anyway it got me thinking about The Force and how it's shown to us in the show as well as most other major media (tbf I'm one of those "only watches the movies" guys and even then I don't rewatch most of them often) and I started thinking about how there's Force users all over the setting, it's all just implied. Din is definitely a force user, as much as Grogu. He just doesn't use it in the Jedi way like Grogu does because it turns out Grogu is not just a wizard baby because his alien race makes him special but because he's 50 years old and has literally had enough time for a potential entire lifespan of an average human to be trained in the Force already. And that's what the Jedi are, a sect of people who can wield The Force in very distinctive and powerful ways by training in its use through a very particular and specific set of rules.

And though they don't understand it with the same analytical and spiritual specificness that the Jedi do, the Mandalorians nevertheless have their own means of using The Force in how they follow The Way. Which is arguably just as religious and rules-centric as the Jedi code, it's just a different flavor.

And that's why I still hope for a turning point where the show acknowledges that maybe Grogu just doesn't want to be a Jedi. It's always presented as the best possible thing for him and arguably being in the care of the legendary hero of the series is safer for him than being with his bounty hunter dad. But it never feels like his choice and that's what sticks in my craw, however cool it is to see Luke Skywalker basically be as terrifying as Darth Vader but it's against fascist murder robots so it's ok. Sure, the Force is strong with him, but that doesn't mean he necessarily has to become The Next Yoda.
 
JBear

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
You probably want to watch The Book of Boba Fett-- it eventually becomes season 2.5 of the Mandalorian, and contains events relevant to your musings above.
 
Phantoon

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
The Last Jedi put it just fine - the Force doesn't belong to the Jedi. The Jedi are but one religion who can use the good side of the Force, we just haven't seen any others yet. Chirrut and Baze from Rogue One also follow a Force based religion, but they aren't Force sensitive - however the Force can still guide you if you have enough faith in it*. You just can't fling X-Wings around - also you can't make the Force to follow your own will if you're not Force sensitive - you have to do what it wants if you want its protection. This gives writers scope for making a character outrageously lucky as "the Force was with them".

It's more obvious with the Dark Side. There you have the Sith, Dark Jedi, Inquisitors and Night Sisters, off the top of my head. All of them are quite different, despite the red lightsabers.

Din is not Force sensitive, any more than Han is. He's just really well trained with mostly indestructible armour. He's better that way, because it proves you don't need magic mitochondria to be important in Star Wars.

*you'll notice that Chirrut doesn't do any cool dodges at the end of Rogue One, the Force is flat out making his enemies miss
 
WisteriaHysteria

WisteriaHysteria

I always read that as him accessing the Force subconsciously to guide his steps so that he would walk around all the lasers, not that he was forcing anyone to miss.
 
Felicia

Felicia

Power is fleeting, love is eternal
(She/Her)
Phantoon said:
Chirrut and Baze from Rogue One also follow a Force based religion, but they aren't Force sensitive - however the Force can still guide you if you have enough faith in it*. You just can't fling X-Wings around - also you can't make the Force to follow your own will if you're not Force sensitive - you have to do what it wants if you want its protection.
Click to expand...
Young, untrained Luke in A New Hope: "You mean it controls my actions?"
Old jedi Obi-Wan, steeped in jedi dogma: "Partially, but it also obeys your commands."

And then, later, when Luke is about to fire the torpedoes at the Death Star, Obi-Wan speaks to him again, but I imagine that having become a ghost has given him some new insights, so he simply says "Let go, Luke." Luke wasn't actively steering the torpedoes to their target, he was letting go and letting The Force guide his hands.
 
Phantoon

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
Fredde said:
Young, untrained Luke in A New Hope: "You mean it controls my actions?"
Old jedi Obi-Wan, steeped in jedi dogma: "Partially, but it also obeys your commands."

And then, later, when Luke is about to fire the torpedoes at the Death Star, Obi-Wan speaks to him again, but I imagine that having become a ghost has given him some new insights, so he simply says "Let go, Luke." Luke wasn't actively steering the torpedoes to their target, he was letting go and letting The Force guide his hands.
Click to expand...
Of course, Luke is extremely Force sensitive. Obi-wan wouldn't be saying that to Han.
 
Büge

Büge

Arm Candy
(she/her)
Luke is also open to learning, whereas Han is immediately dismissive of the Force.
 
air_show

air_show

elementary my dear baxter
WisteriaHysteria said:
I always read that as him accessing the Force subconsciously to guide his steps so that he would walk around all the lasers, not that he was forcing anyone to miss.
Click to expand...
See that's how I feel too. Also Din is using The Force to do all that crazy impossible Batman shit he does. The Force is obviously a part of it. He's just not doing Jedi Magic specifically. Bill Burr probably used the fuckin force to kill an entire room of fascists. That's what I'm saying. If luminous beings are we, it's not because some of us are just born special with magic blood.

Ok I get that there's actually a lot of pieces of canon media that do in fact unambiguously state that it's because some of us are born special with magic blood, but that's one of the things I don't like in the series and tend to prefer media that leans away from it at least.
 
Olli

Olli

(he/him)
I like that the actual text of Star Wars canon is often so vague, loosey-goosey and even self-contradictory that multiple interpretations for the same weirdnesses are equally plausible
 
Purple

Purple

(She/Her)
Kind of tangential to this, but am I the only one who kinda hates the phrase "force sensitive" and how ubiquitous it's become? And also the concept for that matter?

Like I'm already very much more Team Last Jedi than Team Midichloreans and I know that's a big schism between me and everyone who ever wrote a tie-in novel or game in the setting, but it feels very... "we need a mechanical term for why Han Solo can't just start also taking levels in the Jedi class because why wouldn't everyone?" For that matter, where DID it originally come from? The MMO?

Like, I'm pretty sure if a plot hook never fell out of the sky and lead him to go track down Obi-Wan and got to play with a cool sword, Luke would have just continued on being some whiny farmer who just wants to hang out at the mall with his friends. Probably eventually settle down and take over the farm later in life. Never be having psychic visions or dodging lasers or whatnot.

Similarly, I kinda figure Han could get all that cool stuff going if he really wanted to learn and had an open mind and really sat down and focused on it. He's just fundamentally not the sort of character who ever would. Really, it's kind of rare to have the sort of personality to pursue the whole thing. I can't think of a single character in the setting either who's like, jealous of Jedi being able to do all the cool Jedi stuff (I mean besides Kylo Ren), it's just a bunch of people dismissing them as a bunch of religious weirdos with old-fashioned mystical beliefs who can do a few neat party tricks, you know?

Like I can't do gymnastics, but I don't think it's because I'm not parallel-bars sensitive or whatever.
 
Adrenaline

Adrenaline

Post Reader
(He/Him)
Star Wars is way less interesting to me if characters only ever succeed or fail because of the Force. It's an important element of the world but I reject the idea that every time somebody does something unlikely or cool it's only by the will of the Force.
 
Olli

Olli

(he/him)
On the topic of the Force, and I think I've posted this earlier somewhere, in my personal pet theory, the Force is just... power. There's not really a "light" or "dark" side. It's kind of like wild magic - you can use it for "good" or "evil" purposes. The Jedi have chosen a road of asceticism and a strict code of conduct (in exchange for training) because, along the millennia, they've noticed that it's a sort-of working way of keeping people from taking too much advantage of their access to this power. The Jedi creed builds on the belief that if you allow people to form strong bonds of affection, they'll eventually resort to doing bad stuff for the benefit of people they care about. The Jedi also believe that by restricting their skills and powers to "good" ones, they'll stay on the good side, but killing someone with a laser sword instead of force lightning isn't really that different. These false beliefs in a clear division between light and dark, and strict control over the force-user population, are ultimately the reason the Jedi are unsuccessful and nearly wiped out.
 
Olli

Olli

(he/him)
I realize this might be a fairly obvious reading of Star Wars, but I don't think it's ever actually stated out like that.
 
air_show

air_show

elementary my dear baxter
So what I see as the main character in Man Delorean is a person who has a lot of very powerful tools and the raw skill and training to wield them. Though he is often shown to be very vulnerable and human, and explicitly needs to be rescued multiple times over the course of his story, he nevertheless displays an equal measure of extreme competence and at times seems almost superhuman in his ability to overcome challenges.


And like a Jedi he's the product of thorough and rigorous training from a young age that gives him the ability to wield these tools of superhuman ability both literally and spiritually, at least how he sees it. I might go so far as to argue that This Is The Way is a statement with the same spiritual and literal power as May The Force Be With You. In this universe anyway.
 
Phantoon

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
Olli said:
On the topic of the Force, and I think I've posted this earlier somewhere, in my personal pet theory, the Force is just... power. There's not really a "light" or "dark" side. It's kind of like wild magic - you can use it for "good" or "evil" purposes. The Jedi have chosen a road of asceticism and a strict code of conduct (in exchange for training) because, along the millennia, they've noticed that it's a sort-of working way of keeping people from taking too much advantage of their access to this power. The Jedi creed builds on the belief that if you allow people to form strong bonds of affection, they'll eventually resort to doing bad stuff for the benefit of people they care about. The Jedi also believe that by restricting their skills and powers to "good" ones, they'll stay on the good side, but killing someone with a laser sword instead of force lightning isn't really that different. These false beliefs in a clear division between light and dark, and strict control over the force-user population, are ultimately the reason the Jedi are unsuccessful and nearly wiped out.
Click to expand...
I'm onto you, Darth Olli
 
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