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Play Dragon Quest 2 with me

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
I'm gonna actually finish it, this time!

I've started playing Dragon Quest 2 on Switch. I've named the Prince of Midenhall after myself, and the Prince of Cannock and the Princess of Moonbrooke after two of my actual cousins, as is good and right, and the three of us have just got ourselves a boat.

The final dungeon is notorious, but now I know that it's like that by mistake: they cut the penultimate dungeon in development and didn't adjust the experience curve for the following region. It's an understandable mistake, as they literally hadn't yet invented the kinds of playtesting and product management techniques that would have detected the oversight. But it gives me confidence that when you get there, there's nothing for it but ty grind until you can get back up to the target level, and that's easy.

I invite you to come with me on this dragon journey, and finally put this crusty ol' JRPG to rest.
 

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
This is something I would like to do but I'm currently trying to play and finally finish Mother 3!
 

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
The final dungeon is notorious, but now I know that it's like that by mistake: they cut the penultimate dungeon in development and didn't adjust the experience curve for the following region. It's an understandable mistake, as they literally hadn't yet invented the kinds of playtesting and product management techniques that would have detected the oversight. But it gives me confidence that when you get there, there's nothing for it but ty grind until you can get back up to the target level, and that's easy.
Why hasn't this been fixed? Oh, I bet it has been with a patched ROM but you're playing on your switch so that isn't an option.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
Yes. All versions of the game have the same content. No version has reduced the strength of final dungeon enemies to compensate for the near-certainty that the player will arrive underleveled. Nor has any version inserted a dungeon to stand in for the one that they planned to but didn't make in the 80s.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.
 
If what you want to fix is the EXP curve and increase party strength, they've arguably done that already, as the current releases are all much more generous with gold and EXP, and they gave characters more options regarding to equip, gave characters more spells, and made certain equipment and spells stronger.

I played the SFC remake from the early 90s, and it seemed already more or less fixed to me by then. Current versions should be modeled after this balance, or possibly easier. (I know they made further adjustments to reduce difficulty for mobile and Switch versions, including adjusting the level curve and stat growth, but I'm not sure how substantial they are in practice.) Since at least the early 90s SFC version of the game (could be true for the original game too, but I never played it and a quick search is not helping right now), the final save point is also a full party restore, letting you basically throw yourself at at until it works out, without having to bother to pay to revive. With this balance, I didn't have to grind, although it did take a couple tries.

Whether actively grinding or just trying until you beat it is more fun is a matter of taste, but personally I don't like grinding and what I enjoy about DQ is that in most circumstances just trying until you beat it is an option, since you don't lose EXP or progress on death.

Anyway, I like this game a lot! I hope anyone who participates enjoys it!
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
Yes. All versions of the game have the same content. No version has reduced the strength of final dungeon enemies to compensate for the near-certainty that the player will arrive underleveled. Nor has any version inserted a dungeon to stand in for the one that they planned to but didn't make in the 80s.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

I mean, I don’t see why a remake or ROMhack couldn’t do either of those two things you mentioned. Though it sounds like the difficulty adjustments mentioned by estragon may have accomplished the same thing more easily.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
I don't think it's an issue on the experiential player end, personally. This is a difficult game and it's part of its mechanical and narrative identity that it is difficult, particularly when approaching and arriving at Rhone. It's rendered that much more severe and memorable for it, as I've found the game.

This is my favourite game in the series, give or take a VII. Enjoy its singular offerings.
 

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
I mean, I don’t see why a remake or ROMhack couldn’t do either of those two things you mentioned. Though it sounds like the difficulty adjustments mentioned by estragon may have accomplished the same thing more easily.
I checked and there are hacks that have done this. Basically doubling the amount of gold and XP the party receives from battles. Also, there's a fix so that leveling up doesn't get nerfed above 55... Or was that DQ3?
 
I wouldn't be surprised if hacks existed for both, but it's not necessary unless you're playing the Famicom or NES version of DQ2 because this is fixed by revised versions of the game from the early 90s and tuned even more in the player's favor since then. The thing is, none of these games at all are balanced to require being at levels near the point of diminishing returns, let alone a fix to remove diminishing returns. That's just powergaming for powergaming's sake, for players who thing there's something wrong with the concept of diminishing returns. That's fine if you want to hack it in, just like it's fine to turn on an infinite invincibility star code in Super Mario with a game genie or equivalent, but it's not fixing a problem, exactly.

A lot of this reputation comes from the Famicom/NES game and specifically braindead GameFAQs guides that recommend powerlevelling for hours instead of just playing the game, and also just the act of following a guide in the first place. This is a game where you wander a lot to explore objects hidden through the world based on vague by modern standards clues, so if you're following a guide to essentially create modern gaming style waypoints and beeline to those locations, that's what might leave you underlevelled.

If you're not playing the original release, I really wouldn't worry about this all too much.
 
Last edited:

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
I had the experience of being overleveled by the time I got to the ending stretch, for exactly the reason estragon is talking about: I explored dungeons and got into a lot of fights and leveled up. Just like playing the game! This was on Switch too. If anything my main complaint was how high the encounter rate was inside of dungeons.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
I played (and enjoyed) the SNES version years ago. I wandered around, but also followed a guide a few times. For the most part, that was no problem (I don't know if it was here or in III, that I walked away, explored and finished stuff somewhere else, and came back leveled up), but I was a bit underleveled for the final boss. Wasn't too much of a thing, though, maybe an hour of grinding, at most (might be way less, I can only remember that I had to grind). In any case, if you don't use a guide at all, you should be strong enough.

It's a good game. I find this and III to have the perfect amount of open world.
 

Purple

(She/Her)
The final dungeon is notorious,
The last time I decided to marathon through some old Dragon Quarriersts I was actually super amused when I hit the final dungeon. Normally the whole "revive at last save with half your money" thing is a feature I straight up forget even exists because excuse me? Half my money? But 2 sets you up so you'll definitely be fully geared up by the time you get to the last dungeon, has a save point right outside, and the cherry on top, it's the one save point where you get a freebie top-off on everyone HP/MP/aliveness. So there's kind of just... no incentive to hold back or consider retreat. You just get to bash your head on that final dungeon and boss gauntlet like an unthinking berserker, constantly dying and not caring at all about it, and it's weirdly satisfying.

Also did you know that this game being as old as it is, at least if you're playing it on the original NES, all chests respawn if you leave a dungeon. You can totally hook both your cousins up with the ol' water flying cloth.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
I like the puzzlesque structure of this game. As you set out, you don't even know what you're questing for. There's this guy Hargon who's a total scalawag, but where is he? Who is he? It's easy to find sigils before you learn what they're for. There are allies waiting to join you, if you can find them. You find locks, you find keys, sometimes literal ones. And find is the operative term here, as the telegraphing is very subtle compared to a modern game. It's not a ride, but a maze. You're setting out to learn the rules of this little toybox world, identify all its parts, and put them all into a "solved" state, which in the end will give you access to the goal and the means to achieve it.

That kind of structure is still seen in its sequels, but I think to a diminishing degree each time. Even as late as Dragon Quest XI, there are still rewards to backtracking to the third crappy town in the game with the Ultimate Key, but you're not going to find a clue that tells you how to solve the puzzle that gives you the item necessary to beat the final boss. And that's fair. As Dragon Quests grew larger, and as taking notes fell out of vogue, it became less and less reasonable to require the player to pay close attention and remember small details. But these little old NES ones are small enough that you can hold the whole thing in your head as you go.

Modern conveniences like actually-useful fast travel and shiny indicators of hidden objects sand off the roughest legacy edges. And that old fucker Koichi Sugiyama wasn't phoning in the soundtrack yet either. I'm having a grand time with this.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
Ah, what a fool I was! When I encountered the Wrecktor in the jail in Midenhall, I ran away, because I came unprepared and I didn't want to miss out on the EXP. However, this despawned it, and in this version it won't respawn. I gather that guy had a unique drop. Ah well.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
In this version of the game, when you use a Chimaera Wing or cast Zoom, you can always choose your destination from any town you've visited, rather than automatically returning to the last place you saved. This makes it much easier to move around the world. Every time you get a new key, all the locks are close at hand. This greatly eased the cognitive burden of backtracking: no longer do you have to remember where you were going and what you were doing as you trudge across the world, possibly accosted by random encounters depending on whether you outlevel them enough. It's mostly just the small shrines that you have to keep an eye out for. The in-game map conveniently pre-marks the location of every place you can enter, too, and renders visible all invisible objects (even the ones that you need a hint to know to look for them), and indicates when you're adjacent to a door, even one that you can't see because the interior/exterior layering system conceals them. Additionally, not only is there a context-sensitive action button (an innovation added to the series in 1992 and brought to a verson of Dragon Quest 2 in 1993), but they go a step further than the Nintendo DS versions of other games in the series by removing the classic action menu altogether.

All of these modern amenities dispense with gameplay elements that are considered archaic today. To be honest, I don't miss a lot of those things, and was glad for the help. There's a very fine line between a subtle mystery and a dirty trick. All these archaicisms, however, are fundamental to the character of Dragon Quest 2. It is in many ways a more quintessentially archaic game than its own predecessor, which is too simple a game to really test the limits of what obscurity can accomplish as a game design tool.

The process of increasing the convenience of Dragon Quest 2 in order to improve its market fit among ca. 2014 smartphone players applies systemic changes in order to address friction which arises from the content. It would be quite possible to make a good and fun RPG with identical systems to the 1987 release in which all doors and items are visible, all destinations are straightforwardly navigable, all points of interest are easy to locate, and so forth. You could even make such a game as a modest romhack with just a handful of small tweaks to the tile layouts of the base game.

Here's the question: if you did such a thing, and compared it with this 2014 port, which of these two versions of Dragon Quest 2 would be the one whose authenticity was less compromised? Well, the answer is obviously the 2014 one, because Yuji Horii directed the remake like he directs all Dragon Quest remakes - but let's have a little fun and apply Death Of The Author inconsistently, and suppose that the ultimate wellspring of authenticity is not the author but this curious artifact from 1987, an original work of commercial art that was as much a product of its time and technology as anything ever was.

With video game remakes, we seem to acknowledge a difference between moving the little squares around in order to make them easier to deal with, and leaving all the squares in the same place but changing how they work in order to make them easier to deal with. We categorize one of these as "content" and the other as "system," and treat changes to the one as qualitatively different from changes to the other. Heck, there's also changing what the little squares look like, call that "graphics," and that kind of thing happens all the time. Fundamentally, a game is software, and content, systems, and graphics are all just rules, all just code. I daresay that I understand this principle better than most people even within my own profession of software development. The distinction we draw here is an invention of the critic, not a fundamental property of the medium. It's normative. It's part of how we render this artform comprehensible.

I don't have an answer to that question. It's simply something to bear in mind as people who are trying to comprehend this artform.

Anyway, I had a great time blitzing through Dragon Quest 2 (2019). Although I've played several previous versions of this game, this is the first one I've completed, and for that victory I credit its convenient modernized gameplay systems for that fact far more than my own determination. These conveniences serve to give the player "foreknowledge" of things they have not yet experienced - it makes the game feel, in some respects, like you're replaying it even on your first playthrough. The map and so forth don't exactly give you the solution to the puzzle, but they allow you to "remember" certain discoveries that the player might (or might fail to) have noticed on their own from an imaginary previous attempt at solving it. I often find replaying a game to be a more comfortable experience than playing it the first time. An awareness of the overall context and structure that each part falls into deepens my appreciation for its fine details. When not everything I see is equally novel, I can pay closer attention to the parts that are the most clever and meaningful.
 
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