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Play Dragon Quest 2 with me

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
I'm gonna actually finish it, this time!

I've started playing Dragon Quest 2 on Switch. I've named the Prince of Midenhall after myself, and the Prince of Cannock and the Princess of Moonbrooke after two of my actual cousins, as is good and right, and the three of us have just got ourselves a boat.

The final dungeon is notorious, but now I know that it's like that by mistake: they cut the penultimate dungeon in development and didn't adjust the experience curve for the following region. It's an understandable mistake, as they literally hadn't yet invented the kinds of playtesting and product management techniques that would have detected the oversight. But it gives me confidence that when you get there, there's nothing for it but ty grind until you can get back up to the target level, and that's easy.

I invite you to come with me on this dragon journey, and finally put this crusty ol' JRPG to rest.
 

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
This is something I would like to do but I'm currently trying to play and finally finish Mother 3!
 

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
The final dungeon is notorious, but now I know that it's like that by mistake: they cut the penultimate dungeon in development and didn't adjust the experience curve for the following region. It's an understandable mistake, as they literally hadn't yet invented the kinds of playtesting and product management techniques that would have detected the oversight. But it gives me confidence that when you get there, there's nothing for it but ty grind until you can get back up to the target level, and that's easy.
Why hasn't this been fixed? Oh, I bet it has been with a patched ROM but you're playing on your switch so that isn't an option.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
Yes. All versions of the game have the same content. No version has reduced the strength of final dungeon enemies to compensate for the near-certainty that the player will arrive underleveled. Nor has any version inserted a dungeon to stand in for the one that they planned to but didn't make in the 80s.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.
 
If what you want to fix is the EXP curve and increase party strength, they've arguably done that already, as the current releases are all much more generous with gold and EXP, and they gave characters more options regarding to equip, gave characters more spells, and made certain equipment and spells stronger.

I played the SFC remake from the early 90s, and it seemed already more or less fixed to me by then. Current versions should be modeled after this balance, or possibly easier. (I know they made further adjustments to reduce difficulty for mobile and Switch versions, including adjusting the level curve and stat growth, but I'm not sure how substantial they are in practice.) Since at least the early 90s SFC version of the game (could be true for the original game too, but I never played it and a quick search is not helping right now), the final save point is also a full party restore, letting you basically throw yourself at at until it works out, without having to bother to pay to revive. With this balance, I didn't have to grind, although it did take a couple tries.

Whether actively grinding or just trying until you beat it is more fun is a matter of taste, but personally I don't like grinding and what I enjoy about DQ is that in most circumstances just trying until you beat it is an option, since you don't lose EXP or progress on death.

Anyway, I like this game a lot! I hope anyone who participates enjoys it!
 

Kirin

Summon for hire
(he/him)
Yes. All versions of the game have the same content. No version has reduced the strength of final dungeon enemies to compensate for the near-certainty that the player will arrive underleveled. Nor has any version inserted a dungeon to stand in for the one that they planned to but didn't make in the 80s.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

I mean, I don’t see why a remake or ROMhack couldn’t do either of those two things you mentioned. Though it sounds like the difficulty adjustments mentioned by estragon may have accomplished the same thing more easily.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
I don't think it's an issue on the experiential player end, personally. This is a difficult game and it's part of its mechanical and narrative identity that it is difficult, particularly when approaching and arriving at Rhone. It's rendered that much more severe and memorable for it, as I've found the game.

This is my favourite game in the series, give or take a VII. Enjoy its singular offerings.
 

Falselogic

Lapsed Threadcromancer
(they/them)
I mean, I don’t see why a remake or ROMhack couldn’t do either of those two things you mentioned. Though it sounds like the difficulty adjustments mentioned by estragon may have accomplished the same thing more easily.
I checked and there are hacks that have done this. Basically doubling the amount of gold and XP the party receives from battles. Also, there's a fix so that leveling up doesn't get nerfed above 55... Or was that DQ3?
 
I wouldn't be surprised if hacks existed for both, but it's not necessary unless you're playing the Famicom or NES version of DQ2 because this is fixed by revised versions of the game from the early 90s and tuned even more in the player's favor since then. The thing is, none of these games at all are balanced to require being at levels near the point of diminishing returns, let alone a fix to remove diminishing returns. That's just powergaming for powergaming's sake, for players who thing there's something wrong with the concept of diminishing returns. That's fine if you want to hack it in, just like it's fine to turn on an infinite invincibility star code in Super Mario with a game genie or equivalent, but it's not fixing a problem, exactly.

A lot of this reputation comes from the Famicom/NES game and specifically braindead GameFAQs guides that recommend powerlevelling for hours instead of just playing the game, and also just the act of following a guide in the first place. This is a game where you wander a lot to explore objects hidden through the world based on vague by modern standards clues, so if you're following a guide to essentially create modern gaming style waypoints and beeline to those locations, that's what might leave you underlevelled.

If you're not playing the original release, I really wouldn't worry about this all too much.
 
Last edited:

YangusKhan

does the Underpants Dance
(He/Him/His)
I had the experience of being overleveled by the time I got to the ending stretch, for exactly the reason estragon is talking about: I explored dungeons and got into a lot of fights and leveled up. Just like playing the game! This was on Switch too. If anything my main complaint was how high the encounter rate was inside of dungeons.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
I played (and enjoyed) the SNES version years ago. I wandered around, but also followed a guide a few times. For the most part, that was no problem (I don't know if it was here or in III, that I walked away, explored and finished stuff somewhere else, and came back leveled up), but I was a bit underleveled for the final boss. Wasn't too much of a thing, though, maybe an hour of grinding, at most (might be way less, I can only remember that I had to grind). In any case, if you don't use a guide at all, you should be strong enough.

It's a good game. I find this and III to have the perfect amount of open world.
 

Purple

(She/Her)
The final dungeon is notorious,
The last time I decided to marathon through some old Dragon Quarriersts I was actually super amused when I hit the final dungeon. Normally the whole "revive at last save with half your money" thing is a feature I straight up forget even exists because excuse me? Half my money? But 2 sets you up so you'll definitely be fully geared up by the time you get to the last dungeon, has a save point right outside, and the cherry on top, it's the one save point where you get a freebie top-off on everyone HP/MP/aliveness. So there's kind of just... no incentive to hold back or consider retreat. You just get to bash your head on that final dungeon and boss gauntlet like an unthinking berserker, constantly dying and not caring at all about it, and it's weirdly satisfying.

Also did you know that this game being as old as it is, at least if you're playing it on the original NES, all chests respawn if you leave a dungeon. You can totally hook both your cousins up with the ol' water flying cloth.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
I like the puzzlesque structure of this game. As you set out, you don't even know what you're questing for. There's this guy Hargon who's a total scalawag, but where is he? Who is he? It's easy to find sigils before you learn what they're for. There are allies waiting to join you, if you can find them. You find locks, you find keys, sometimes literal ones. And find is the operative term here, as the telegraphing is very subtle compared to a modern game. It's not a ride, but a maze. You're setting out to learn the rules of this little toybox world, identify all its parts, and put them all into a "solved" state, which in the end will give you access to the goal and the means to achieve it.

That kind of structure is still seen in its sequels, but I think to a diminishing degree each time. Even as late as Dragon Quest XI, there are still rewards to backtracking to the third crappy town in the game with the Ultimate Key, but you're not going to find a clue that tells you how to solve the puzzle that gives you the item necessary to beat the final boss. And that's fair. As Dragon Quests grew larger, and as taking notes fell out of vogue, it became less and less reasonable to require the player to pay close attention and remember small details. But these little old NES ones are small enough that you can hold the whole thing in your head as you go.

Modern conveniences like actually-useful fast travel and shiny indicators of hidden objects sand off the roughest legacy edges. And that old fucker Koichi Sugiyama wasn't phoning in the soundtrack yet either. I'm having a grand time with this.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
Ah, what a fool I was! When I encountered the Wrecktor in the jail in Midenhall, I ran away, because I came unprepared and I didn't want to miss out on the EXP. However, this despawned it, and in this version it won't respawn. I gather that guy had a unique drop. Ah well.
 

Bongo

excused from moderation duty
(he/him)
Staff member
In this version of the game, when you use a Chimaera Wing or cast Zoom, you can always choose your destination from any town you've visited, rather than automatically returning to the last place you saved. This makes it much easier to move around the world. Every time you get a new key, all the locks are close at hand. This greatly eased the cognitive burden of backtracking: no longer do you have to remember where you were going and what you were doing as you trudge across the world, possibly accosted by random encounters depending on whether you outlevel them enough. It's mostly just the small shrines that you have to keep an eye out for. The in-game map conveniently pre-marks the location of every place you can enter, too, and renders visible all invisible objects (even the ones that you need a hint to know to look for them), and indicates when you're adjacent to a door, even one that you can't see because the interior/exterior layering system conceals them. Additionally, not only is there a context-sensitive action button (an innovation added to the series in 1992 and brought to a verson of Dragon Quest 2 in 1993), but they go a step further than the Nintendo DS versions of other games in the series by removing the classic action menu altogether.

All of these modern amenities dispense with gameplay elements that are considered archaic today. To be honest, I don't miss a lot of those things, and was glad for the help. There's a very fine line between a subtle mystery and a dirty trick. All these archaicisms, however, are fundamental to the character of Dragon Quest 2. It is in many ways a more quintessentially archaic game than its own predecessor, which is too simple a game to really test the limits of what obscurity can accomplish as a game design tool.

The process of increasing the convenience of Dragon Quest 2 in order to improve its market fit among ca. 2014 smartphone players applies systemic changes in order to address friction which arises from the content. It would be quite possible to make a good and fun RPG with identical systems to the 1987 release in which all doors and items are visible, all destinations are straightforwardly navigable, all points of interest are easy to locate, and so forth. You could even make such a game as a modest romhack with just a handful of small tweaks to the tile layouts of the base game.

Here's the question: if you did such a thing, and compared it with this 2014 port, which of these two versions of Dragon Quest 2 would be the one whose authenticity was less compromised? Well, the answer is obviously the 2014 one, because Yuji Horii directed the remake like he directs all Dragon Quest remakes - but let's have a little fun and apply Death Of The Author inconsistently, and suppose that the ultimate wellspring of authenticity is not the author but this curious artifact from 1987, an original work of commercial art that was as much a product of its time and technology as anything ever was.

With video game remakes, we seem to acknowledge a difference between moving the little squares around in order to make them easier to deal with, and leaving all the squares in the same place but changing how they work in order to make them easier to deal with. We categorize one of these as "content" and the other as "system," and treat changes to the one as qualitatively different from changes to the other. Heck, there's also changing what the little squares look like, call that "graphics," and that kind of thing happens all the time. Fundamentally, a game is software, and content, systems, and graphics are all just rules, all just code. I daresay that I understand this principle better than most people even within my own profession of software development. The distinction we draw here is an invention of the critic, not a fundamental property of the medium. It's normative. It's part of how we render this artform comprehensible.

I don't have an answer to that question. It's simply something to bear in mind as people who are trying to comprehend this artform.

Anyway, I had a great time blitzing through Dragon Quest 2 (2019). Although I've played several previous versions of this game, this is the first one I've completed, and for that victory I credit its convenient modernized gameplay systems for that fact far more than my own determination. These conveniences serve to give the player "foreknowledge" of things they have not yet experienced - it makes the game feel, in some respects, like you're replaying it even on your first playthrough. The map and so forth don't exactly give you the solution to the puzzle, but they allow you to "remember" certain discoveries that the player might (or might fail to) have noticed on their own from an imaginary previous attempt at solving it. I often find replaying a game to be a more comfortable experience than playing it the first time. An awareness of the overall context and structure that each part falls into deepens my appreciation for its fine details. When not everything I see is equally novel, I can pay closer attention to the parts that are the most clever and meaningful.
 

spines

cyber true color
(she/her, or something)
playing the gbc version while 1 is still super fresh in my mind. i suppose it's possible this will eventually become super offputting in the way that it apparently is to a lot of people, but so far this experience has been quite a treat. it's got that fun sense of playing a foundational entry in a genre that happens to be familiar in many ways and really unfamiliar in others, and combined with the heavy yet justified callbacks to a game that i just played (which is obviously my substitute for having spent a year obsessed with the game before this came out in the 80s), i'm having such a good time.

this is a pretty playful game, a lot of it in appealing ways. compared to the first one, it's a bit more dynamic and has more specific experimentation going on; more elaborate scenes, battle design, the boat. the dungeon design feels labyrinthine in a way that's almost like the first game, but i feel a bit more like i can try to read the game's wavelength instead of just seeing what all's a dead end. though i got fooled pretty wildly at the lighthouse. i thought i was so clever trying the bottom left staircase first, and it seemed like i was right! it kept going up through a cool secret path around the outside, i'm getting up to the top, and then there's just the light, and basically not a damn thing there that's of any interest to a hero. even before that, once you first get the chance to sail east to the familiar world..."welcome back to tantegel", the guard tells you. the sage at the south shrine yells at you once again for showing up without the seal/emblem. these familiar aspects contrast with the sort of vagueness of a lot of the progression. the goal of the game is announced right away, but it doesn't build up tasks on the way super directly and it takes a while before anyone talks about how the characters might actually achieve their ultimate aim. there's a really interesting mix of "townsfolk telling you important knowledge," "you encounter a weird obstacle and have to figure out the solution," and "there's a landmark on the map but what is it?" these, of course, are all related, but they come around in unique proportions. this game's structure doesn't seem to be that loose (say, it's not a post-gameboy saga game), but it feels loose because a lot of things aren't conveyed very directly and the only way to figure out whether or not you can do something is to try it. you'll see a tower in sight and yet it seems blocked off from most angles, but it's gotta be the one. (you have to go way up and around the shore.)

the party makes their way to moonbrook and hear the princess has been turned into a dog and is in a village somewhere. in a modern game this would be the next village, but it's the one they've been using as a home base for a little while now. when the prince talks to the dog, she joins the party to walk around the village until you leave. at first i thought this was a minor curiosity and nearly forgot about it, but i did it again before using the mirror the way the game actually lets you and realized it was actually a really subtle and cute little thing to put in the game. like how i felt learning about druaga, i'm shocked at how sophisticated some of the ideas this game has are...and the fact that they're married to this era's design language just keeps making me so excited. it's comprehensible enough that i haven't yet felt like i have to stab at the dark, but that process of trying to put varying forms of information together into some kind of understanding is something newer games (ones which i really like) don't really use in the same way. this is a game i don't think i'd ever seriously thought of playing before last week, but i'm so glad i took a look.
 

spines

cyber true color
(she/her, or something)
it's finished, great game. i'd heard about a late game difficulty spike but even expecting it it was a lot harsher than i had guessed. hahaha. the enemy power really suddenly spikes up way ahead of your tools and you kind of have to start all over with figuring out what you can do to try and manage things the best. which is interesting and a bit frustrating. even making it inside the last dungeon is pretty much a tossup at first...it's a huge change of pace from the freewheeling feeling i had a lot of the game, and which i really fell in love with, but it doesn't drag the whole thing down much if at all for me, though the ordeal of getting to the last boss and then losing to 2-3 consecutive firebreaths is pretty wack in the gbc version.

something that really hit me as i got the keys and kept revisiting the world was that clearly one of horii's big Things is recontextualizing the world. it's obviously very elaborate in chrono trigger but it's really interesting in this game, with the kind of experience you get in some places changing a lot depending on how you got there and which npcs have become available since the last time. and in that sense getting to hargon's castle feels like a huge payoff, which i really loved...i've seen this kind of thing plenty of times but was really caught off-guard when it came up in a game this old and formative. of course, another example is that final world tour, which feels really rich and satisfying in this game even though the number of different lines isn't ultimately that high...i just spent so much time trying to learn about this world, and recasting repel about a thousand times, so the feeling of peace and thinking of relatively important npcs to catch up with was really great.

really, it's hard for me to think of things that i like in this genre that didn't come up in this game. not impossible, and i certainly don't think it's flawless, but it's such a sophisticated game...i'm really shocked how far ahead of the first game they were thinking! and given all of that, it's pretty hard for me to imagine where dq3 is going to top a lot of it. (i have been reminded that on the famicom it was the one that introduced battery saves, though.) that's a game i've been meaning to play for years, but now i feel truly ready to see what i think of it. i'll probably stick with the gbc version one more time. i really feel like i've been converted to someone who likes this series, now...hahaha. as it stands i'm really excited to see how it kept evolving
 
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