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"It feels different this time..." - The new Doctor Who Thread
- Thread starter Kazin
- Start date
Phantoon
I cuss you bad
Well, bi-generation is complete bollocks
but both this and Wild Blue Yonder are my favourite RTD episodes. Both felt oddly Moffatty at points, the concept of the Giggle being an image that had such an extreme effect is very reminiscent of the effect of an image of an angel, or The Impossible Astronaut.
And Fourteen is infinitely more likeable than Ten.
We're going to need a villain called The Evictor soon, to rid us of all these Tennants
but both this and Wild Blue Yonder are my favourite RTD episodes. Both felt oddly Moffatty at points, the concept of the Giggle being an image that had such an extreme effect is very reminiscent of the effect of an image of an angel, or The Impossible Astronaut.
And Fourteen is infinitely more likeable than Ten.
We're going to need a villain called The Evictor soon, to rid us of all these Tennants
Let the record show that I snorted audibly when I read this line
Holy shit
When asked what it would take to get Eccleston back as the Doctor on TV, he said, "Sack Russell T Davies, Sack Jane Tranter, sack Phil Collinson, sack Julie Gardner, and I'll come back." Happens just after the 15 minute mark if you want to watch it. I'm still watching the rest, myself.
When asked what it would take to get Eccleston back as the Doctor on TV, he said, "Sack Russell T Davies, Sack Jane Tranter, sack Phil Collinson, sack Julie Gardner, and I'll come back." Happens just after the 15 minute mark if you want to watch it. I'm still watching the rest, myself.
Phantoon
I cuss you bad
I got the impression that filming the first series was a bit of a shit show. They were doing an American style series for the first time and I think they just about managed, but I think under the pressure some people got treated very poorly. That's how I read it.
Noel Clarke and John Barrowman may not have helped, but that's what I've got from what I've read.
Noel Clarke and John Barrowman may not have helped, but that's what I've got from what I've read.
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He says later on after a fan says he's sorry to hear of the behind the scenes troubles that it's all politics and every job has that. I can't make heads or tails of that, assuming he's not covering his ass after naming four people who he wants sacked lol. We'll probably never know the specifics.
If you find yourself on the Planet of the Eyebrow Boys (under new management), why not spend an afternoon in The Space Museum?
Yeah, me too, Ian.
The story starts off strongly enough, with the characters moving like ghosts through a silent and intangible museum, past guards who take no notice of them. It's all very eerie and mysterious. This turns out to be perhaps the first example of the show playing with the concept of time travel beyond simply using it to reach new locales (though the exact mechanics of what's going on are conveyed somewhat confusingly): the TARDIS crew witness their future selves having met a terrible end, and are then pulled into the past to try to prevent it from coming to pass. What follows is a lot of second-guessing themselves about what they're supposed to do, what they might have done last time, and whether it's even possible to change the course of events. Is there even such a thing as free will, or is everything predetermined? I really have to hand it to the Hartnell era for always trying to mix things up: you get your standard sci-fi romps, plus some gorgeously drawn historicals, comedies like The Romans, and then weird conceptual pieces like this, Planet of Giants and The Edge of Destruction. I don't know of any other Doctor having enjoyed such a variety in stories and tones. It doesn't all necessarily work, but damn if they don't try.
Things are a bit downhill from there, unfortunately. The museum itself is a dreadful bore: whereas this story if produced in the modern era would almost certainly feature plenty of callbacks and fan service (and, no doubt, tantalizing lines in which the Doctor would recognize various other exhibits from his off-screen travels: "ooooh, look, it's a plasmodic reconfibulator from the Ziggleflarp Expanse! I haven't seen one of these since I helped their two-headed Prime Minister with engine trouble..."), the only piece of established iconography here is a Dalek. (I have to assume the Moroks found it already dead, as I can't imagine any amount of them overtaking a single active Dalek.) The rest is just generic Space Stuff that goes entirely unremarked upon, at least until the Doctor spots a souvenir he wants at the end.
The remainder of the story is more or less a silly runaround down identical corridors, hiding out from and getting captured and re-captured by uninteresting villains. It did not escape my notice that the two warring sides (each consisting of nearly interchangeable imbeciles) have names that can be switched around into "the Morons" and "the Xerox."
It's not without its highlights, however:
- The Doctor gets some fun bits of business here, hiding inside the Dalek and visualizing random stock footage while he's hooked up to the Brainalyzer. He's also offered a chance at vengeance on Lobos for nearly embalming him, but his conscience won't let him take it.
- But step aside, Doctor, for Vicki gets to reprogram a lie-detecting computer, raid an armory, foment a revolution, and enjoy a brief fling with one of the Eyebrow Boys! Which one? Who cares! Get it, girl.
- Ian is an absolutely unstoppable madman, carving his way through an army with his fists and deftly taking prisoners until he gets conked in the back of the head in episode 4. BRUTAL COMBO
- Barbara's also here!
Next: it's time to say goodbye...
Yeah, me too, Ian.
The story starts off strongly enough, with the characters moving like ghosts through a silent and intangible museum, past guards who take no notice of them. It's all very eerie and mysterious. This turns out to be perhaps the first example of the show playing with the concept of time travel beyond simply using it to reach new locales (though the exact mechanics of what's going on are conveyed somewhat confusingly): the TARDIS crew witness their future selves having met a terrible end, and are then pulled into the past to try to prevent it from coming to pass. What follows is a lot of second-guessing themselves about what they're supposed to do, what they might have done last time, and whether it's even possible to change the course of events. Is there even such a thing as free will, or is everything predetermined? I really have to hand it to the Hartnell era for always trying to mix things up: you get your standard sci-fi romps, plus some gorgeously drawn historicals, comedies like The Romans, and then weird conceptual pieces like this, Planet of Giants and The Edge of Destruction. I don't know of any other Doctor having enjoyed such a variety in stories and tones. It doesn't all necessarily work, but damn if they don't try.
Things are a bit downhill from there, unfortunately. The museum itself is a dreadful bore: whereas this story if produced in the modern era would almost certainly feature plenty of callbacks and fan service (and, no doubt, tantalizing lines in which the Doctor would recognize various other exhibits from his off-screen travels: "ooooh, look, it's a plasmodic reconfibulator from the Ziggleflarp Expanse! I haven't seen one of these since I helped their two-headed Prime Minister with engine trouble..."), the only piece of established iconography here is a Dalek. (I have to assume the Moroks found it already dead, as I can't imagine any amount of them overtaking a single active Dalek.) The rest is just generic Space Stuff that goes entirely unremarked upon, at least until the Doctor spots a souvenir he wants at the end.
The remainder of the story is more or less a silly runaround down identical corridors, hiding out from and getting captured and re-captured by uninteresting villains. It did not escape my notice that the two warring sides (each consisting of nearly interchangeable imbeciles) have names that can be switched around into "the Morons" and "the Xerox."
It's not without its highlights, however:
- The Doctor gets some fun bits of business here, hiding inside the Dalek and visualizing random stock footage while he's hooked up to the Brainalyzer. He's also offered a chance at vengeance on Lobos for nearly embalming him, but his conscience won't let him take it.
- But step aside, Doctor, for Vicki gets to reprogram a lie-detecting computer, raid an armory, foment a revolution, and enjoy a brief fling with one of the Eyebrow Boys! Which one? Who cares! Get it, girl.
- Ian is an absolutely unstoppable madman, carving his way through an army with his fists and deftly taking prisoners until he gets conked in the back of the head in episode 4. BRUTAL COMBO
- Barbara's also here!
Next: it's time to say goodbye...
Whoa, don't hog the spotlight!
If you find yourself on the Planet of the Eyebrow Boys (under new management), why not spend an afternoon in The Space Museum?
Yeah, me too, Ian.
The story starts off strongly enough, with the characters moving like ghosts through a silent and intangible museum, past guards who take no notice of them. It's all very eerie and mysterious. This turns out to be perhaps the first example of the show playing with the concept of time travel beyond simply using it to reach new locales (though the exact mechanics of what's going on are conveyed somewhat confusingly): the TARDIS crew witness their future selves having met a terrible end, and are then pulled into the past to try to prevent it from coming to pass. What follows is a lot of second-guessing themselves about what they're supposed to do, what they might have done last time, and whether it's even possible to change the course of events. Is there even such a thing as free will, or is everything predetermined? I really have to hand it to the Hartnell era for always trying to mix things up: you get your standard sci-fi romps, plus some gorgeously drawn historicals, comedies like The Romans, and then weird conceptual pieces like this, Planet of Giants and The Edge of Destruction. I don't know of any other Doctor having enjoyed such a variety in stories and tones. It doesn't all necessarily work, but damn if they don't try.
Things are a bit downhill from there, unfortunately. The museum itself is a dreadful bore: whereas this story if produced in the modern era would almost certainly feature plenty of callbacks and fan service (and, no doubt, tantalizing lines in which the Doctor would recognize various other exhibits from his off-screen travels: "ooooh, look, it's a plasmodic reconfibulator from the Ziggleflarp Expanse! I haven't seen one of these since I helped their two-headed Prime Minister with engine trouble..."), the only piece of established iconography here is a Dalek. (I have to assume the Moroks found it already dead, as I can't imagine any amount of them overtaking a single active Dalek.) The rest is just generic Space Stuff that goes entirely unremarked upon, at least until the Doctor spots a souvenir he wants at the end.
The remainder of the story is more or less a silly runaround down identical corridors, hiding out from and getting captured and re-captured by uninteresting villains. It did not escape my notice that the two warring sides (each consisting of nearly interchangeable imbeciles) have names that can be switched around into "the Morons" and "the Xerox."
It's not without its highlights, however:
- The Doctor gets some fun bits of business here, hiding inside the Dalek and visualizing random stock footage while he's hooked up to the Brainalyzer. He's also offered a chance at vengeance on Lobos for nearly embalming him, but his conscience won't let him take it.
- But step aside, Doctor, for Vicki gets to reprogram a lie-detecting computer, raid an armory, foment a revolution, and enjoy a brief fling with one of the Eyebrow Boys! Which one? Who cares! Get it, girl.
- Ian is an absolutely unstoppable madman, carving his way through an army with his fists and deftly taking prisoners until he gets conked in the back of the head in episode 4. BRUTAL COMBO
- Barbara's also here!
Next: it's time to say goodbye...
The Space Museum is a great first episode followed by perhaps three of the most boring episodes Doctor Who has ever produced, a few scenes with Vicki delightfully fomenting a revolution while giggling aside. Well, that and the Doctor showing a bunch of walruses when asked where he comes from, which is trolling both the character asking him and the audience in a way I totally love haha.
And yet - it's much more entertaining than the Chase! I'm looking forward to your theory, Vaeran, as to what the absolute fuck happens in the third episode (fourth? I'm not rewatching that mess for a long time, I can't remember which one, but you'll know it when you see it lol). Good luck staying awake, my friend! lmao
Phantoon
I cuss you bad
Makes perfect sense to me. Shitty politics happen in lots of places. Doesn't mean you want to work with shitty people, especially if you have a choice. I think that was the initial issue that made him quit. And if that was all that the problem was his return might've been negotiable if it was proven the situation had changed.
Unfortunately they then made up a statement from him. They put words into his mouth about why he left, and that's absolutely unacceptable. I'm from a similar bit of England, and I'd never forgive people for that either. All we have that matters is our word, and they took it from him. It's a shame he didn't come back for Moffatt, I think everybody he hates was gone, but he was probably still livid.
This is just reading between the lines for the explanation that best fits what he says. I'm not secretly Christopher Eccleston, honest.
Phantoon
I cuss you bad
The best Doctor
Enjoyed The Giggle a lot. My wife, a big Tennant fan, absolutely loved it. So, if you want to know who exactly the extremely silly plot contortion to get a happy ending for 10/14 was for, it was for her. There you have it.
Getting huge Labyrinth vibes from basically everything in that scene, and therefor I'm here for it.
Yeah, Phantoon's take jibes with what I got when I heard Eccleston talk about it at a con too. He was clearly unhappy with the kinds of behavior that were being allowed/opverlooked on set but isn't going to get into other people's business about it. But then the Beeb absolutely fucked him over with their public statements about his departure, and the show-runners didn't come much to his defense, and he's not forgiving that.
Getting huge Labyrinth vibes from basically everything in that scene, and therefor I'm here for it.
Yeah, Phantoon's take jibes with what I got when I heard Eccleston talk about it at a con too. He was clearly unhappy with the kinds of behavior that were being allowed/opverlooked on set but isn't going to get into other people's business about it. But then the Beeb absolutely fucked him over with their public statements about his departure, and the show-runners didn't come much to his defense, and he's not forgiving that.
Christopher Eccleston would not debase himself by being involved with Shining Force Neo. Yes, even Thor 2 is a better project than that mess.
(though I appreciated the fucking joke lmao)
The Chase was the BETTER of Nation's two ideas?! It's a story about nothing!
I really don't have a lot to say about this story (because there's nothing here) so I'll keep this brief.
- The TARDIS crew hanging out watching the Time-Space Visualizer was cute, and I like that it's got big huge dials labeled with the names of the planets of the solar system. You know, because space! "Hmm, the picture's coming in a little fuzzy. Turn the Saturn down to about a 2 or a 3, and give me more Jupiter."
- The Daleks have never been more boring and one-note than they are here. Wasn't this the height of Dalekmania? I wonder if this is what began its decline. Their time machine looks like a fucking placeholder prop. Just the laziest, cheapest-looking shit.
- Is this perhaps the first attempt to depict the time vortex? We get a couple brief shots of the TARDIS and the Dalek time machine flying against a sort of nebulous background.
- I guess Peter Purves played the yahoo from Alabama who spent 137 interminable minutes in episode three hooting and yee-hawing about the TARDIS on the roof of the Empire State Building? And they loved his performance so much they brought him back as Steven three weeks later? What was the original plan?
- Did you know that the ship they were on in episode 3 was the Mary Celeste? Did you really internalize that fact? Here let me zoom the camera slowly in on the sign that says Mary Celeste three separate times for you and hold it there for thirteen years each time. Oh better put it in dialogue too
IAN: Did you catch the name of that ship? It was the Mary Celeste.
BARBARA: oh, FUCK
- To answer your question, Kazin: no, I cannot tell you what is going on in episode 4. Unshriven!
- Re: the Daleks' robot Doctor: "Success! Paramount success! It is impossible to distinguish from the original!"
- After sleepwalking through five episodes the story finally wakes up and realizes there are actual humans still watching, expecting to be entertained. About fucking time. Steven's got great energy, and his story of crash-landing on a forgotten terraformed planet and being kept as a zoo exhibit by machines that were designed to serve humanity but decided to built a crystalline fantasy city on stilts instead is way more interesting than anything else The Chase has to offer. Why couldn't we have come straight here from Aridius?
- I am genuinely sad to have to say goodbye to Ian and Barbara. Yeah, Vicki's wonderful and Steven seems like he'll be fun as well, but these two have a maturity and a reassuring presence to them that's unlike any other companion or set of companions in the show, and the impact they had on the Doctor's character is immeasurable. He seems really broken up to have to part ways with them, and I know at least part of that was William Hartnell being upset about their decision to leave. RTD wrote them a beautiful coda in the "Death of the Doctor" episode of The Sarah Jane Adventures:
SARAH JANE: And this couple in Cambridge, both professors: Ian and Barbara Chesterton. Rumor has it they've never aged. Not since the 60s.
I think that's just lovely. Yeah, there's no rational explanation for why they wouldn't age, but it feels right somehow, doesn't it? There's something iconic and vital and eternal about these two and I think RTD really nailed that. Then Chibnall had to ruin it all by wheeling poor old William Russell out for a dumb gag in The Power of the Doctor. Thanks Chib!
- The TARDIS crew hanging out watching the Time-Space Visualizer was cute, and I like that it's got big huge dials labeled with the names of the planets of the solar system. You know, because space! "Hmm, the picture's coming in a little fuzzy. Turn the Saturn down to about a 2 or a 3, and give me more Jupiter."
- The Daleks have never been more boring and one-note than they are here. Wasn't this the height of Dalekmania? I wonder if this is what began its decline. Their time machine looks like a fucking placeholder prop. Just the laziest, cheapest-looking shit.
- Is this perhaps the first attempt to depict the time vortex? We get a couple brief shots of the TARDIS and the Dalek time machine flying against a sort of nebulous background.
- I guess Peter Purves played the yahoo from Alabama who spent 137 interminable minutes in episode three hooting and yee-hawing about the TARDIS on the roof of the Empire State Building? And they loved his performance so much they brought him back as Steven three weeks later? What was the original plan?
- Did you know that the ship they were on in episode 3 was the Mary Celeste? Did you really internalize that fact? Here let me zoom the camera slowly in on the sign that says Mary Celeste three separate times for you and hold it there for thirteen years each time. Oh better put it in dialogue too
IAN: Did you catch the name of that ship? It was the Mary Celeste.
BARBARA: oh, FUCK
- To answer your question, Kazin: no, I cannot tell you what is going on in episode 4. Unshriven!
- Re: the Daleks' robot Doctor: "Success! Paramount success! It is impossible to distinguish from the original!"
- After sleepwalking through five episodes the story finally wakes up and realizes there are actual humans still watching, expecting to be entertained. About fucking time. Steven's got great energy, and his story of crash-landing on a forgotten terraformed planet and being kept as a zoo exhibit by machines that were designed to serve humanity but decided to built a crystalline fantasy city on stilts instead is way more interesting than anything else The Chase has to offer. Why couldn't we have come straight here from Aridius?
- I am genuinely sad to have to say goodbye to Ian and Barbara. Yeah, Vicki's wonderful and Steven seems like he'll be fun as well, but these two have a maturity and a reassuring presence to them that's unlike any other companion or set of companions in the show, and the impact they had on the Doctor's character is immeasurable. He seems really broken up to have to part ways with them, and I know at least part of that was William Hartnell being upset about their decision to leave. RTD wrote them a beautiful coda in the "Death of the Doctor" episode of The Sarah Jane Adventures:
SARAH JANE: And this couple in Cambridge, both professors: Ian and Barbara Chesterton. Rumor has it they've never aged. Not since the 60s.
I think that's just lovely. Yeah, there's no rational explanation for why they wouldn't age, but it feels right somehow, doesn't it? There's something iconic and vital and eternal about these two and I think RTD really nailed that. Then Chibnall had to ruin it all by wheeling poor old William Russell out for a dumb gag in The Power of the Doctor. Thanks Chib!
The Chase is straight dogshit, yeah. Loved the post though, Vaeran. Another lovely coda for Ian and Barbara is Simon Guerrier's "The Time Travellers" book from 2005, which is the best 1st Doctor novel that I've read. Everyone is in character, and it also neatly builds up to Susan leaving the show. It's well worth a read, especially if you can find a PDF of it online or something, since apparently it's gone up in price since I bought my copy several years ago.
Vaeran, I'm not sure if you noticed, it's pretty subtle - did you catch that that ship was the Mary Celeste? I just blew your mind, I know
Vaeran, I'm not sure if you noticed, it's pretty subtle - did you catch that that ship was the Mary Celeste? I just blew your mind, I know
I lol'd
Yeah, William Russell read a short section from The Time Travellers in one of the featurettes on here. I think I will track down a copy, at that! Thanks for the recommendation.
As for Peter Purves pulling double duty in the same serial, Maureen O'Brien explained the circumstances during Behind the Sofa. Apparently they couldn't get Hartnell to agree to any replacement for William Russell and Jacqueline Hill because he was too distraught at the simple fact that they were leaving. But everyone had a good time working with Purves during the Empire State Building scene, so O'Brien took it upon herself to suggest to Verity Lambert that they ask him to return in a more permanent role. Verity then went to Hartnell with it and he agreed. So the answer to my question as to what the original plan was is that there was no plan; two of the series' four stars were leaving in three weeks' time and they had no one lined up to step in. I suppose if it really came down to it Verity would have just pulled rank and cast someone over Hartnell's objections, but who knows how he would have reacted to that?
Over and over I've heard that O'Brien essentially fell into the role of being Hartnell's unofficial handler, calming him down when he'd go off on his rages, and I think that's a terribly sad burden to have to saddle someone so young with. She doesn't seem bitter about it now, though, and recalls Hartnell with a certain degree of fondness. Still, it can't have been easy for her.
Phantoon
I cuss you bad
I'm watching Dark Water. So many of Capaldi's episodes are mentioned as all-timers, but this never gets mentioned. The opening alone is just jaw droppingly good, capped by this:
DOCTOR:
Clara? You asked me what we're going to do. I told you. We're going to hell. Or wherever it is people go when they die. If there is anywhere. Wherever it is, we're going to go there and we're going to find Danny. And if it is in any way possible, we're going to bring him home. Almost every culture in the universe has some concept of an afterlife. I always meant to have a look around, see if I could find one.
CLARA:
You're going to help me?
DOCTOR:
Well, why wouldn't I help you?
CLARA:
‘Cos of what I just did. I just...
DOCTOR:
You betrayed me. Betrayed my trust, you betrayed our friendship, you betrayed everything that I've ever stood for. You let me down!
CLARA:
Then why are you helping me?
DOCTOR:
Why? Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?
DOCTOR:
Clara? You asked me what we're going to do. I told you. We're going to hell. Or wherever it is people go when they die. If there is anywhere. Wherever it is, we're going to go there and we're going to find Danny. And if it is in any way possible, we're going to bring him home. Almost every culture in the universe has some concept of an afterlife. I always meant to have a look around, see if I could find one.
CLARA:
You're going to help me?
DOCTOR:
Well, why wouldn't I help you?
CLARA:
‘Cos of what I just did. I just...
DOCTOR:
You betrayed me. Betrayed my trust, you betrayed our friendship, you betrayed everything that I've ever stood for. You let me down!
CLARA:
Then why are you helping me?
DOCTOR:
Why? Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?
I have no issue with people not liking Moffat, but scenes like that are almost totally exclusive to episodes written by him. That, the end of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, several spots during River Song's arc (well, if you like her, anyway - my wife and I love her so all that stuff works for us), etc. I don't want him back - I'm still dying on the hill of wanting new showrunners and writers (and fucking Doctors!) - but I'd like someone to be as good as him, please. Better, preferably.
Phantoon
I cuss you bad
Yes, I agree. We'd got to the point of diminishing returns with Moffatt, and even then we got Extremis, World Enough And Time and The Doctor Falls.
The problem is he's probably the best writer Doctor Who's ever had. He'll just drop incredible ideas and dialogue that you'd kill to be able to write like it's nothing:
"I don't know why I keep shouting at them."
"Because every time you see them happy you remember how sad they're going to be. And it breaks your heart. Because what's the point in them being happy now if they're going to be sad later. The answer is, of course, because they are going to be sad later."
I struggle to think of Doctor Who quotes outside of his stuff beyond “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”
Replacing him is no easy thing, and by the end of his run there were few viable alternatives who'd run a show for themselves. Here's hoping RTD can unearth a successor as brilliant as his last one.
The problem is he's probably the best writer Doctor Who's ever had. He'll just drop incredible ideas and dialogue that you'd kill to be able to write like it's nothing:
"I don't know why I keep shouting at them."
"Because every time you see them happy you remember how sad they're going to be. And it breaks your heart. Because what's the point in them being happy now if they're going to be sad later. The answer is, of course, because they are going to be sad later."
I struggle to think of Doctor Who quotes outside of his stuff beyond “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”
Replacing him is no easy thing, and by the end of his run there were few viable alternatives who'd run a show for themselves. Here's hoping RTD can unearth a successor as brilliant as his last one.
Phantoon
I cuss you bad
I loved the idea that even a simulation of the Doctor would see through the simulation and bring it down.
Also this:
Only in darkness are we revealed. Goodness is not goodness that seeks advantage. Good is good in the final hour, in the deepest pit, without hope, without witness, without reward. Virtue is only virtue in extremis.
Also this:
Only in darkness are we revealed. Goodness is not goodness that seeks advantage. Good is good in the final hour, in the deepest pit, without hope, without witness, without reward. Virtue is only virtue in extremis.