"It feels different this time..." - The new Doctor Who Thread

[Phantoon]

Glad you liked it, I think it's a bit of a masterpiece with a huge retcon that doesn't do anything adverse to Doctor Who and makes perfect sense

 

[Kazin]

I dunno, go back and watch The Edge of Destruction and The Time Monster (among others) - the TARDIS has always been alive. The Doctor's Wife always felt like an evolution of some ideas laid down back in those days.

 

[Phantoon]

That's why it makes perfect sense! Making the TARDIS at the very least an equal partner puts the whole series in a different light. But it's additive, it adds more richness to the story. It's a perfect retcon, it doesn't feel like one at all.

 

[Kazin]

It does enrich Doctor Who at various points, yeah - knowing the TARDIS is alive at, say, the end of Revenge of the Cybermen is hilarious, because she fucks off for the whole story while the Doctor deals with the rubbish plot, and literally the second its over she shows up to pick up the Doctor and Sarah as if passing judgement on the story as being beneath her.

Everything in the spoilertext above is my bullshit headcanon, but I love it lol

 

[Phantoon]

heh, I'll definitely take that as canon

Edit: stuff like this happening is where the sentient metafiction idea came from, right?

 

[Kazin]

Afaik, yeah, though I imagine you'd have to ask El Sandifer? Not sure if she came up with it originally, but she's where I first saw it

 

[Kirin]

So, The Rebel Flesh / The Almost People... For a moment, I thought the end of the episode was sending hugely mixed messages because we just had it hammered home that the flesh/'gangers were independent nearly-human life deserving of according respect, but then the Doctor goes and unceremoniously melts 'ganger-Amy (which honestly was one of the scarier moments in the show so far; I knew something was up but not that). But anyway another moment of thought made me realize the gangers were only independently alive due to the solar storm accident; when they were still hooked up to humans, as Amy's was, it was still just a substance being directed from outside. So I guess that hangs together. Also much better in that I hate when plots pull an "oh, that wasn't really them for ages" twist, but, in this case, it basically was the same original character, just with a little remote control indirection.

That said, I'm also not a huge fan of the forced pregnancy trope, so, not thrilled about that, but we'll see.

Also of note is that, while the relevant one dissolved for the moment, this whole bit also gives a somewhat obvious out for the season opener incident... though it makes the age discrepancy a bit odd.

 

[Kazin]

Really interested in what you think about the next one...

 

[Phantoon]

The Rebel Flesh / The Almost People is a base under siege story (a Doctor Who staple) done right. It manages to avoid most of the weaknesses of the trope. I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but it's a decent story.

And yeah, next one will be interesting...

 

[Kirin]

Yeah, I was focusing on the meta-plot stuff, but as a general base-defense and failed negotiations story it was quite all right. Also interesting to see which characters are sympathetic flip back and forth through the story.

 

[Kirin]

So, A Good Man Goes To War.
........................................................................................ what.

Yeah, I somehow managed to go all this time without being spoiled on the deal with River Song. In fact I nearly fell for the obvious momentary misdirection that she might be the Doctor's mom or something even though that really wouldn't make any sense. I had picked up the heavily dropped hints that she was supposed to kill the Doctor at some point, but not the other thing. So, uh. Huh. Yeah.

Oh, but relating to an above comment, I was glad that the kid is in fact just straightforwardly Amy and Rory's albeit with some weird gestational circumstances. But the reveal and the timey-wimey-ness of it all kind of immediately deflated the urgency of *saving* it, since we already know so much of the rest of her life.

So anyway then Let's Kill Hitler. Timey continues to be Wimey. Did a stable time loop of melody being named after herself just pop into existence after meta-recent events, or... well, best not to think about it too hard I suppose.

Also:

Night Terrors: Okay that was a bit creepy, but the episode felt kind of disposable overall TBH.

The Girl Who Waited: Ooooh, now that one hurt. In a good way. But ouch. The feels. Jesus.

 

[Kazin]

Yeah, A Good Man Goes to War sure dumps a lot on you. I like it, even if the Doctor is a bit more bloodthirsty than I'd like to see him, though I suppose that's kinda the point of the episode.

Now The Girl Who Waited... yeah, that one always gets me too. It's underrated, imo, and one of Karen Gillan's best performances in the show.

 

[Daikaiju]

 

[Kazin]

Yeah, I'll be getting that as soon as I can, and I don't even rate Fury as highly as fandom does. The animations are pretty good now, especially now they've updated Power of the Daleks (I need to finish watching the new animation - I watched episode one and it's greatly improved from the 2016 release).

 

[Kirin]

So, in the lead-up to the end of Season 6... yeah, pretending we're leaving the current companions for good doesn't really work when one of them is still narrating the show opening. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This season was plenty fun overall with lots of good stuff in, but I have a lot of nitpicks with The Wedding of River Song. Really not a fan of leading off with quips like " 'What happened to time?' 'A Woman'" and "devil in high heels" and such... thanks Moffat, could you not. And none of the women here ended up having much agency. Amy took charge where she could but still ended up mostly a bystander to the big events. We never even really learned who eye-patch lady was other than "someone working for the Silence for some reason or other". And River... well, she's technically young yet; I imagine it's hard to make satisfying character development backwards, but still.

Still, "all of history happening at once" was pretty fun to see, even if completely nonsensical. And then... curious that we were set up to think the Doctor might pull a fast one with the Flesh, but... it turned out he did pretty much the exact same thing but by other means. And like, sure, I'll give that the sleight of hand there could fool anyone watching or scanning the event, but fooling the concept of time itself on a technicality... well, okay, this is one of the bits we shouldn't think about too hard.

Anyway then I watched The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe xmas special and it was delightful.

 

[Kazin]

So, in the lead-up to the end of Season 6... yeah, pretending we're leaving the current companions for good doesn't really work when one of them is still narrating the show opening. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, that was an American-only thing - she doesn't do that in the British versions, either on broadcast or on their DVDs. It's pretty dumb and does kind of spoil that bit!

This season was plenty fun overall with lots of good stuff in, but I have a lot of nitpicks with The Wedding of River Song. Really not a fan of leading off with quips like " 'What happened to time?' 'A Woman'" and "devil in high heels" and such... thanks Moffat, could you not. And none of the women here ended up having much agency. Amy took charge where she could but still ended up mostly a bystander to the big events. We never even really learned who eye-patch lady was other than "someone working for the Silence for some reason or other". And River... well, she's technically young yet; I imagine it's hard to make satisfying character development backwards, but still.

Yeah, series 6 is where Moffat started losing people for the reasons you list above, and it's hard to blame them. Specifically the stuff with the Silence where the Doctor seems to get aroused when he and River kill a bunch of them. What the hell?!

Anyway then I watched The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe xmas special and it was delightful.

Well, I'm glad someone liked that episode. Blergh.

 

[Kirin]

Yeah, that was an American-only thing - she doesn't do that in the British versions, either on broadcast or on their DVDs. It's pretty dumb and does kind of spoil that bit!

Ah, yeah, figures. It reads very much like hand-holding for trying to draw in an audience that hasn't the slightest idea what this Doctor Who stuff is.

Well, I'm glad someone liked that episode. Blergh.

Huh, do people not like it? I mean, okay, the "only women can carry life bit" is some gender-essentialist nonsense, but all the rest seemed like a fine one-off Who romp to me.

 

[Kazin]

Ah, yeah, figures. It reads very much like hand-holding for trying to draw in an audience that hasn't the slightest idea what this Doctor Who stuff is.

Yep, that's exactly what it was! Although, Doctor Who got really popular in America during the Matt Smith era, so maybe it did work...

Huh, do people not like it? I mean, okay, the "only women can carry life bit" is some gender-essentialist nonsense, but all the rest seemed like a fine one-off Who romp to me.

It is pretty universally panned, at least within DW fandom. I just think it was incredibly dull.

 

[Phantoon]

It is pretty universally panned, at least within DW fandom. I just think it was incredibly dull.

Yep. There's nothing much to it and it's a huge letdown after the last one. I think I prefer every other Moffat special to it.

Season Six suffered a lot from time pressures, he was running Sherlock at the same time which didn't help. I think with a couple of rewrites The Wedding Of River Song could have been a classic.

 

[Kazin]

Season Six suffered a lot from time pressures, he was running Sherlock at the same time which didn't help.

And I'm still annoyed about it all these years later, because Sherlock is dog shit.

I did like his Dracula adaptation though, at least until halfway through the third episode lol

 

[Phantoon]

I really liked Sherlock :/

I've found that I now can't watch Chibnall episodes from the Moffat without getting annoyed. Now I know his foibles I can see them from a mile off.

 

[Kirin]

Hmm, I expect my reaction to the Wardrobe episode has a lot to do with it *not* being watched as an event in a drought between seasons for me. As "just another episodic Who story" it was fine. I can see where for people expecting something special along the lines of "Christmas Invasion" or "Runaway Bride" or "Christmas Carol" (never mind the Tennant post-season specials which were pretty amazing) it might fall a bit flat.

 

[Kazin]

I really liked Sherlock :/

Yeah, so did my wife. I just can't stand it lol

I've found that I now can't watch Chibnall episodes from the Moffat without getting annoyed. Now I know his foibles I can see them from a mile off.

Even before he was announced as showrunner, his episodes were underwhelming. Which still describes his scripts to this day at their best!

Hmm, I expect my reaction to the Wardrobe episode has a lot to do with it *not* being watched as an event in a drought between seasons for me. As "just another episodic Who story" it was fine. I can see where for people expecting something special along the lines of "Christmas Invasion" or "Runaway Bride" or "Christmas Carol" (never mind the Tennant post-season specials which were pretty amazing) it might fall a bit flat.

Yeah, it probably was worse for people starving for Doctor Who (I encountered it with the only DW story in 2016, same thing - it's not a bad episode, but for the only episode that year it was disappointing). Though... that was the last episode they had on Netflix during the first time I was watching the show, then I "obtained" series 7 to catch up, and saw Day of the Doctor the day of transmission as my first Doctor Who story "live," as it were, and even then I still didn't like Wardrobe...

 

[Kirin]

Asylum of the Daleks - Ooh, it's a Dalek episode *and* a creepy-horror-vibe episode at the same time. Fun. I sort-of-recognize Oswald from promo images so I suppose we'll be seeing her again somehow, even though this ep made it seem like she was a one-off. Not a fan of the show toying with our emotions over the Ponds, nor of the trope of male writers writing female characters having existential crises over not being able to have children but at least that seems wrapped up and be done with quickly. Still a good ep otherwise.

One meta thing, though, at this point the ability of the Daleks to consistently rebuild themselves from a handful left (or even supposedly none at all) into an entire army has really kind of let the wind out of the whole new-Who's original overarching conceit of the Doctor sacrificing all the Time Lords to wipe out all the Daleks and end the Time War. But I guess the inherent timey-wimeyness of Who always makes it hard to really have consequences stick.


Dinosaurs on a Spaceship - Well, that was what it said on the tin. I note this is a Cibnall ep, who you've all been hating on lately. Definitely noticed the dialog tended a bit toward the juvenile more than usual, and the extra characters felt especially arbitrary with no real reason to be there. (And Nefertiti ends up going off to a life as a big game hunter, wtf?? Why was the Doctor friends with a big game hunter in the first place even?) But other than that it was a passable fun-romp-style ep (with a side of genocide). Mr Weasley Rory's dad was great.

 

[Kazin]

I love Asylum of the Daleks, and Dinosaurs on a Spaceship is one of Chibnall's better scripts - I kinda like it, actually. And there are people who enjoy his era - I hope you do, too, when you get to it, as I'd rather people enjoy the show even if I don't, really (the cast in his era is fantastic, though, at least).

One of the big problems with Chibnall-penned episodes is his are kinda forgettable, generally - do you remember the David Tennant episode "42," or the Siluarian two-parter from Matt Smith's first season? Not really, maybe only vaguely? That's Chibnall for you!

 

[Kirin]

I mean, I do, but I watched them all in the last month or two.

 

[Kazin]

I mean, I do, but I watched them all in the last month or two.

True lol. Ask yourself that again in a year and see if you remember them lol

 

[Phantoon]

Is Dinosaurs On A Spaceship the one where the Doctor gets really murdery, resulting in Chibnall going ridiculously too far in the opposite direction because he apparently doesn't understand the show at all?

 

[Kazin]

I mean, yeah, kinda, but Moffat had him get super murdery in Wedding of River Song, so you can hardly single Chibnall out for it in that era imo

 

[Phantoon]

I mean, yeah, kinda, but Moffat had him get super murdery in Wedding of River Song, so you can hardly single Chibnall out for it in that era imo

I need to watch that again, it's been a while.