imaginary video game design workshop - only in your head games

[Torzelbaum]

This thread is for discussing the design of imaginary video games - games that don't exist (and for various reasons might never even be able to exist).

The specific idea that I have that made me want to start this thread is a Castlevania RPG. (Which I feel like this is quite seasonally appropriate.)

Now if you were a strawman I was using to set up my explanation then you might say "But Torzelbaum there are already Castlevania Action RPGs in the form of the Metroidvania games in the series." And that's true but what I want to do here is to remove the Action part and make design a Castlevania turn-based RPG.

So with that out of the way let's start talking about the different design elements of the game.

 

[Torzelbaum]

Design Element : Playable Characters

(Note: I have not played every Castlevania game so I do not 100% encyclopedic knowledge of the series and all of its spin-offs or whatnot. If there is something relevant I have missed then please mention it. Thank you.)

Since there have been so many Castlevania games there is no shortage of possible characters that could be included in the game. The Castlevania series has included characters that fit into many (but maybe not all) RPG archetypes and roles. However since this is a Castlevania game then the roster of playable characters would have to include at least one wielder of the Vampire Killer. That wielder could be either a Belmont or one of the many substitutes who have filled in for various different reasons.

When I was thinking of RPG character roles and battle responsibilities there are two which I think aren't represented by any Castlevania characters.

The roles are buffer/debuffer and healer. For those roles I think either a new original character would have to be created to fill that role or an existing NPC might have to be promoted for it.

For a buffer/debuffer I think an alchemist would be a good way to realize that within this game.

For a healer the easiest fit is a priest or priestess (but I wouldn't really trust modern day Konami with designing the latter of those).
However that is a rather simple and cliché choice. But after thinking about it for a bit I realized that there are other more interesting possibilities that still are true to the Castlevania flavor.

So in many Castlevania games you heal by eating food or more generally meat. So the healer in the RPG could be either a (combat) chef or a (battle) butcher who can heal by preparing food and also still attack with their knives and other tools. The chef could also attack by summoning a waiter skeleton to deliver a meal to an enemy which the enemy finds disagreeable. For example the dish could include garlic to affect vampires or maybe wolvesbane for werewolves. (And collecting and using those ingredients for this could also be a system within the game.)

(Please note that I will be discussing different design elements for this over the next few days. I kindly ask that you refrain from discussing design elements that have not already been introduced. Thanks again.)

 

[Kirin]

Pretty sure there was an NPC chef in Ecclesia who sent you on quests to bring back ingredients, he could work in that role. Might even have a name, I forget without looking it up...

 

[Torzelbaum]

Design Element : Environment

In this case I am referring to the three main types of different navigable physical environments that are in most RPGs - towns, overworld(s) and dungeons.

In a geographical sense most Castlevania games are set in Europe in general and more specifically Transylvania or Wallachia. That's a fine choice for an RPG setting but in Castlevania games most of the action usually takes place only within Dracula's Castle*. Personally I think it would be tough to place an entire RPG game within just that one location (even though it is spacious and diverse). I think a better option would be to draw inspiration and precedent from games like Simon's Quest, Portrait of Ruin, Order of Ecclesia or Harmony of Despair.

From those games I see two different options for the RPG:
1. Have a traversable overworld with one or more towns (More feels like the better choice for this option.)
2. Have no overworld and only a single hub/base town.

For both options there would be multiple dungeons with the Castle being the final one. For option 2 the hub world would connect to or allow travel to the different dungeons and more would be unlocked / revealed as the game progresses.

Those games had reasons for why you had to go to different locations and dungeons. I honestly hadn't really thought much about the plot of the game beyond "Drac is back and that's wack, so let's give him a smack." So why would you need to go anywhere else than the big bat man's place? Maybe Dracula got smart or someone else got involved and erected a barrier around the castle to prevent any Belmonts and / or other vampire hunters from storming the castle and interfering with Dracula's blood-drinking business. So you have to travel around to figure out how to take down the barrier which might require going through a separate dungeon to defeat the boss monster which is guarding the "thingy"** creating the barrier. And maybe bringing down part of the barrier allows you to travel through a small part of Castlevania in order to unlock the next step in the quest. And since this is an RPG there could be other fetch quests and plot triggers which require you to go all over the damn place inbetween fighting the barrier guardians.

*Or Demon Castle (悪魔城 Akumajō?) or Castlevania

** A classic Castlevania staple...

Sub-Design Element : Environmental Secrets
Since they are such a large part of the series then I think the dungeons (and maybe also the towns) would need to have breakable walls that hide secrets and treasures. And also some things could be placed as hidden items / chests. In either of those cases I think there should be some "tells" or a way to identify where those secrets are because scouring all over for those is something I don't think is very fun.

Pretty sure there was an NPC chef in Ecclesia who sent you on quests to bring back ingredients, he could work in that role. Might even have a name, I forget without looking it up...

Is this who you mean?

Aeon (Order of Ecclesia)

A confident chef whose motto is, "I can cook anything!" He moved here to avoid the serious competition of the big city.In-game description. Aeon (イオン, Ion?) is a supporting character in Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia. He is one of Wygol's villagers and a distant descendant of the Belmont Clan...

castlevania.fandom.com

 

[Kirin]

That’s the guy!

 

[Beowulf]

This is an interesting discussion, and I think I'm going to wait to see where you take your thoughts before I weigh in.

 

[Torzelbaum]

Design Element : Battle System

I enjoy the Action RPG elements of the Metroidvania entries in the series but I don't feel like they're a great fit for a single-player party-based RPG. However I also feel like a very traditional turn-based battle system or even something like the ATB system would lose too much of the Castlevania feel. So my goal with the battle system is to make a system that is turn-based but can retain the action game roots of the series (to some degree). In order to do that the game would have to abstract or distill the timing, positioning and spacing needed for action gameplay into the battle system.

I think there are a lot of designs that could achieve that goal but here are the two that I personally find the most appealing:

1. Your party and the enemies each have a 3 by 3 grid of positions that all combatants are arranged on at the start of battle. Your party members and the enemies will be able to move around the grid during their turns. Attacks will have different ranges and areas of effect which when combined with positioning will limit what can be targeted.​

​

2. Use a TRPG/SRPG-like system with a grid over the entire battlefield and more-or-less free movement for all combatants.​

No matter which option is used I think the game should also have either a turn order and intent display or an incoming threat warning/indicator. The goal of those is to let the player know what action the enemy is taking and what area or character is the target of the action. The intent does not necessarily have to be explicit - the enemies could have graphical "tells" about their intent (but I think an explicit indicator is more user-friendly).

Also, your characters would only occupy a single grid square but enemies could be larger (and possibly have larger "hitboxes" as a result).

 

[Kirin]

Another sort of in-between system that might work besides the ones you describe (which I’m seeing as basically MMBN or FFT with tweaks, respectively) is a Lunar-like one that’s turn-based but lets both PCs and enemies roam around the whole screen. I guess Chrono also does this though you have no direct control over your party positioning. To me it feels like one of the better fits For CV style; can be faster paced and look more action-y than full tactics but is still very much a party rpg.

 

[Torzelbaum]

Another sort of in-between system that might work besides the ones you describe (which I’m seeing as basically MMBN or FFT with tweaks, respectively)

Heh. I didn't even realize I was suggesting something like MMBN's battle system. So the idea above is basically just that but without the real-time movement and "firing".

You're spot on about FFT which uses a three-quarter isometric view. Castlevania RPG could use that view or it could use a 2D side view like Magic Scroll Tactics.

Lunar-like one that’s turn-based but lets both PCs and enemies roam around the whole screen.

It's been a long time since I've played any of the Lunar games (via the PS1 remakes). Can someone remind me of exactly how the battle controls worked in those?

I guess Chrono also does this though you have no direct control over your party positioning. To me it feels like one of the better fits For CV style; can be faster paced and look more action-y than full tactics but is still very much a party rpg.

Since you don't have direct control that loses the aspect of deliberate positioning that I wanted to try and retain. But there are lots of different ways to design this. The battles could also work like in Valkyrie Profile or the Tales series.

Another option would be to have action game like movement and basic attacks but a stamina limit which prevents characters from doing too much or moving too far during their turns.

 

[Beowulf]

I'm thinking what you want is the Grandia combat system: The battle system, like Game Arts' Lunar series before it, placed emphasis on the combatants' location in the field. However, while Lunar only allowed the player to set the team's position in battle, Grandia had characters move to appropriate positions during battle and allowed the player to have them move elsewhere to avoid attacks or reach a more advantageous position. Also notable is how characters can counter or disrupt enemy attacks.

 

[Torzelbaum]

Yeah, that's the other one I was thinking of.

(I'm not sure why I confused that and the Tales series.

Also, has there not been a new Grandia game since the PS2 era?)

 

[Torzelbaum]

Design Element : Non-boss Enemies

The Castlevania series has a vast bestiary of regular enemies that could be used for random battles in the RPG. Many of those monsters are ones that commonly appear in many RPGs. In fact I'm trying and failing to think of a CV enemy which would just not fit in a fantasy RPG at all. Are there any that you can think of?

In an interesting parallel CV also indulges in the classic RPG staples of using palette swaps (or different skins) to create "different" monsters and demoting "boss" monsters down to common encounters. I suppose it just make sense to have CV RPG continue with those shared traditions.

So here are some classic CV enemies that I think the game should include:

zombie, bone tossing skeleton, bone pillar, mermen, white dragon, axe armor, ghost, black panther, skeleton soLdier, archer skeleton, spear guard, flying skeleton, ectoplasm, other big armor of some kind, mud man, gorgon, witch, witch apprentice, slime, (the) zombie hand​

Bats, birds, medusa heads are some other staple enemies which I think should be included but I am struggling to think of how to include them without removing what makes them challenging (/annoying) to deal with in an action game. Maybe the game could include something like an elevation and attack heigh system with different attacks that can hit low (on the ground), high (for flying enemies) and/or in-between (about shoulder height for a person / humanoid). That could allow for an interesting in-battle puzzle where you have to freeze a flying enemy in the right place in order to reach a secret, optional objective.

And here are some other CV enemies which I think are neat or interesting and would consider including:

ghost dancer, werewolf, ripper, Ukoback, Mandragora, flying skull, bone ark, disc armor, beam skeLeton, Buer, Stolas, skelerang, skeleton rib, spittle bone, corner guard, Yorick, Alastor, skeleton frisky, Dullahan, peeping eye, spectral sword, night stalker, bLade master, skeleton whip sword, silhouette demon, sword lord, wereskeleton, Andras​

​

minotaur with pillar / Wan-Fu (from SamSho) minotaur​

​

bat with a sword​

​

So are there any other CV enemies I haven't mentioned who you think should be included because they're either a staple or are interesting/unusual?

So there are lots of choices for enemies but I don't think we want to use all of them in the first game - we should probably save some for the sequel(s).

 

[Torzelbaum]

Design Element : Bosses

The Castlevania series also has a large roster of boss monsters that could be used in this RPG.

Of course Dracula will have to be the final boss. And most likely will have more than one form in keeping with that other tradition which is shared by CV and RPGs.

I think Death will also have to make an appearance as a boss at some point in the game. I'm not sure if it should have multiple forms in the same battle or if you would fight it throughout the game in different forms. If either of those was the case then I think "melee monk" Death from Rondo of Blood should be one of the forms.

In addition to those two bosses I would want to include the following mix of classic and interesting bosses from the series:

• giant bat (or Bat Company or Zapf Bat)
• Keremet
• stained gLass warrior / knight (but not lame)
• Puppet Master
• Legion / Granfaloon

I think Puppet Master and Legion could translate into interesting boss battles in an RPG system (but maybe not so much in the MMBN-like system). In an FFT-like system I can see Legion have six outer pieces (front, back, left, right, top and bottom) which hide the laser tentacles and the core. I'm not sure if Legion would try to rotate to protect its core from you or if it would rotate to aim its laser at your party. Maybe it would depend on how much health the core has left.

And I think an interesting hidden or bonus boss would be the Oxocutioner (which is originally from Getsu Fūma Den but did make a special appearance in Harmony of Despair).

Besides all of those bosses here are some other classic and/or interesting bosses which could be included:

werewolf, Arachne, Blackmore, Astarte, Aguni, Carmila, Slogra, Medusa, behemoth, hellhound, manticore, Cerberus, Beelzebub, Max Slimer, Paranoia, white dragon, bone golem​

• Crazy Armor (Armor Battler, Drolta's Mecha-Knight, Sprinting Mecha Knight)
• Frankenstein / The Creature (maybe with Igor)
• Malphas / Karasuman
• mummy / mummies
• possessed party members (maybe)
• skulldragon / death dragon / dragon zombie
• skull knight / skullknight king

Of course just like with the non-boss enemies we don't want to use all of those bosses in the first game and should probably save some for the sequel(s).

Other random thoughts:

An idea I had for a boss fight in the game was to have some red / blood skeletons included in it - like the respawning enemies that often occur in RPG boss fights.​

​

I don't know if the game should include a boss rush or not. I think it depends on how easy it is to restore resources or how powerful the PCs/heroes can become over the course of the game.​

And on a final note I again have to ask - are there any other CV bosses I haven't mentioned who you think should be included because they're either a classic boss or are interesting/unusual?

 

[Kirin]

Could be fun to do the Slogra + Giabon double boss thing, where they have team-up attacks and maybe assist each other in other ways depending on the battle system. And maybe if you defeat one they lose some attack abilities but the remaining one goes into some hyper mode or just gets hasted or what have you.

 

[Torzelbaum]

Could be fun to do the Slogra + Giabon double boss thing, where they have team-up attacks and maybe assist each other in other ways depending on the battle system. And maybe if you defeat one they lose some attack abilities but the remaining one goes into some hyper mode or just gets hasted or what have you.

I would have mentioned that but I find Gaibon to be lame and so I didn't want to include him. Maybe we could have Werewolf and Minotaur as a double boss fight instead.

 

[Torzelbaum]

Design Element : Equipment

Armor and accessories can probably be handled just like in any other RPG but that's not true for main weapons. There are a few different options for how main weapons could be handled most of which have some established precedent in the existing games.

Here are the options I'm thinking of:

A. Any character can use and equip any weapon. Different versions of each (or most) weapons can be acquired throughout the game

1. Different characters will have different proficiencies / affinities with different weapon types. Higher levels of that will make a character better at using that specific weapon type (and maybe allow the use of special techniques with it).
2. Base stats will determine the effectiveness of a weapon (but special techniques will probably still only be available to specific characters).

B. Characters can only use their signature weapon.

1. Different versions of the weapon can be acquired throughout the game.
2. There is only one version of the weapon but it can be upgraded or modified throughout the game. That would be done either through a leveling system or by using attachments.

The game could also use a blend of the different options but I think it would be best to just have one consistent system for all of the characters.

 

[Becksworth]

Okay, so a Metroid game that takes place in an asteroid belt or in orbit of a gas giant with a lot of moons/satellites, and Samus either rarely or never gets out of the gunship. Basically 3D Space Shooter/Metroidvania were you fly around for the ship upgrades you need to progress. Things to consider:

1) What kind of upgrades? Beams/Missiles/Visors/Armor upgrades should translate fine, but others like morph ball or space jump wouldn't and could be replace with more spaceship appropriate ideas.

2) What kind of enemies?
Even one you keep from previous games would need to be rethought to reflect the change in scale. Metroids in their larval state for example might be less a major threat than a minor nuisance that latches on to your thrusters and slow you down feeding on your propulsion.

3) Level design?
One big interconnected 3d space map? Break it up into smaller segments you need a warp drive upgrade to jump between?

 

[Becksworth]

Wildly swings open the door and slides in Kramer-style

Okay, hear me out. What if Fatal Frame/Project Zero 6 did a complete genre shift from survival horror to Metroid Prime style 3D Metroidvania?

- As a survival horror series, Fatal Frame has always struggled in the shadow of Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and like a bajillion indie horror titles. Meanwhile, while 2D Metroidvanias are also an oversaturated subgenre, 3D Metroidvanias is actually a fairly green pasture.

- It's also not like a Metroidvania can't be horror themed. I mean look at its two literal namesakes.

- Really all that needs changed from a design perspective is speed up the moment to moment gameplay, ease up on film/ammo limits, add some good old ability upgrade based lock & key design to the exploration, and add more, varied ghosts to bust with your camera.

- Upgrade ideas:
Camera Lenses = visor like upgrades
Camera Flashes = beam like upgrades
Different Film = missle like upgrades
That random jump scare hand = turns out he was friendly this whole time; wants to be your thing-like buddy/morph ball analog upgrade.

 

[Felicia]

I've been reading about the old Swedish allotment system for keeping an army. It basically meant that each soldier was provided a small croft to farm and sustain himself and his family on in peacetime. It made me imagine a variant of Harvest Moon-style farming sim, in which you play as a soldier who has to keep their small farm going, but also occasionally has to go out in war and try to survive to make it back home. Injuries sustained in the wars would make certain farm tasks difficult, but maybe if you perform some heroic actions and get promoted, it will mean having more resources to expand the farm (and maybe impress a potential partner). Aside from the usual farm chores, you would also have to take care of your uniform, weapons and other equipment, to increase your chances of survival in battle. Eventually you might be promoted to the cavalry, and have to take care of your horse(s) as well.

 

[Felicia]

Thinking about it some more, a more realistic/darker take on the "soldier farming sim" would be if you get resources by plundering bodies of enemy soldiers after the battle, or stealing from the local populace. There could be an ethical aspect where you have choose if you want to get more loot, but then blackening your soul and hardening your outlook, making social interaction more difficult back home.