I can't decide if I love or hate Hollow Knight (spoilers probably)

[air_show]

I have been playing a fair bit of this game lately and am beginning to marvel at its sheer size. I mean I've put 30 hours into the mf'er and while I think I could go for the basic no frills ending pretty quickly at the moment I know I'm still quite a ways from the true ending and know of the existence of quite a few areas and bosses and upgrades I still have absolutely no idea how to find (the Hive being a good example: I can clearly see where it's supposed to be on the map but I have scoured every single inch of its perimeter and can't find the entrance). So it certainly isn't a short and cheap experience, that's for sure.

But it's like, you know how Pirates of the Carribean is a good movie? How like, you enjoy the setpieces and characters and fight scenes and acting but you're like, "man, this mf'er is LOONG." Well I'm starting to feel the same vibes from Hollow Knight. Like part of it might be how quite late in the game they still restrict your movement quite a lot. Fast travel locations are spaced just far enough that it's always a journey to explore the nooks and crannies I've missed when I get a new skill. I recently got an ability to create teleporter locations that would greatly mitigate this but using it exhausts a resource that seems quite difficult to replace, and the quantity of which is used as a check to acquire important upgrades and plot items? So I'm afraid to use it lest I lock myself out o content? So a sort of fatigue is setting in.

This is on top of the game starting to get outright frustrating. I'm in the Queen's Gardens right now and I straight up HATE that place. Every single room is an ordeal. You can't get anywhere easily, everything is a nasty platflorming nightmare while being hounded by extremely difficult enemies that fly just out range and hit you with attacks that have very little visual wind up to warn you and focus on area denial while you have very, very little area to work with. And now I'm up to a boss I can only challenge by either:

1. Going on an extremely long trek from the bench in Greenpath, which isn't difficult but is boring.

2. Going on a shorter (but still substantial) and EXTREMELY FUCKING DIFFICULT platforming section in the Queen's Garden, all but guaranteeing that I'll be challenging said boss with my patience and resources diminished.

3. Burning an essence to teleport back on every attempt, possibly burning through too much of it.

And through the knowledge of additional spoilers it starts to soundlike the endgame is only going to consist of more and more of this: brutal, increasingly unforgiving pixel-perfect platforming demands capped off with increasingly absurd and ruthless boss fights. I know I'm a souls veteran and should be accustomed to this kind of punishment but the two of them working in tandem is wearing me down.

But also the game is as adorable as it is twisted and unsettling and very satisfying when its vibing. I don't know if I love it or not.

 

[estragon]

I can decide, and I love Hollow Knight.

Re: Your current predicament

You don't need to worry about using Essence to teleport.

Essence use to teleport is thematic/narrative, not a real resource to manage.

Mechanical details: Using Essence to teleport makes normal enemies more likely to drop Essence until you're back to where you'd be if you never used it. Also, even if this weren't true, I think you'd have to retry that boss ~1000 times before it locked you out of anything.

 

[Johnny Unusual]

I really like it. I'm not really a "git gud" gamer by any stretch and I've been sold on how hard it is and it isn't easy so far but I never feel like I'm hitting my head on a wall, except two of the dream fights and those were optional as far as I know. Now I'm not as far but all the same, while I do agree that a few more benches or transports would be nice (I'd happily pay for them, I'm totes swimming in geo I have little use for yet except fixing my fragile crystals) and travelling can be a pain but at the same time it's like good spicy food where the challenge doesn't hurt the flavour.

 

[air_show]

Ooof. Let me demonstrate some of my dilemma here.

I have to upgrade my weapon to maximum. It's not up for debate. In order to do that though I must complete the second colosseum tier and it is too much man. Like the part where they narrow the area and stick one of those big stompy guys in there with you? That is straight up not cool. I can't even begin to deal with the stress those things put me through in the most open and mobile of environments and I have to somehow survive this thing in a claustrophobic space after an already grueling length of extremely difficult combat and probably have to deal with significantly more still to get that last Pale Ore?

I mean fuck. That is a really really extreme difficulty hurdle to get over to even achieve basic completionism. To say nothing of beating a presumably even more severe tier of combat after that to get what is it, a mask shard? Another thing that's really not "optional" in my book.

 

[estragon]

To say nothing of beating a presumably even more severe tier of combat after that to get what is it, a mask shard? Another thing that's really not "optional" in my book.

The third and final tier doesn't unlock or reward anything of note, so you can skip it if you're not having fun.

If you generally are just frustrated with the game, though, it makes sense to stop playing. There are so many fun games to play out there.

Personally, I thought the second colosseum tier was fun and fair, but obviously that's subjective... Generally I found everything required to fully upgrade the MC and get the happiest ending was balanced well, and then there are a bunch of optional challenges that I ignored that would have required a much higher level of mastery than I was interested in: the hardest boss of the circus DLC, the boss rush DLC, the third tier of the colosseum, the infamous path of pain, etc.

 

[air_show]

Current brick wall is the Watcher Knights. Frustrating. Stressful. Not fun. I guess I'll stop.

 

[Olli]

I gave up at the colosseum's second tier, yeah. I'm sure I could have nailed it eventually, but it just took too long to get to the last parts, so it would have mostly been down to luck. Learning patterns is all right, but I wasn't having an ounce of fun there.

 

[FelixSH]

The ones that drove me crazy in tge colliseum battles were the shooting bee things.

If it helps, as someone who really liked the bosses in generell, I found the Watcher Knights to be the worst. Simply because there are multiple of them, so instead of the typical dual, where you can focus on one enemy, you have to deal with a buch of jerks who can do whatever. Worst boss in the game, imho, for that reason.

You can defeat one of them before the fight, by entering through another way. Maybe this could help?

 

[Paul le Fou]

The Watcher Knights sucked, definitely. I think that was a point where I just fucked off somewhere else to get more powerful, explore, check off side stuff before coming back later.

I did find a lot of the game's bosses on the difficult side, but did manage to get through them all (I think?), and it was pretty rewarding. I did some of the DLC stuff but said "hah hah, nope, fuck that" to most of the die-hard really crazy difficult stuff.

What kind of charm builds are you running with?

 

[air_show]

Urrgh. This love/hate relationship continues. I used the chandelier trick to make the Watcher Knights easier and beat them after several more tries and then took out the third sleeper. Then I tried to fight the dream version of Zote until I got fed up and quit.

Next time I played I decided to say fuck it and go after the Hollow Knight. He proceeded to beat the everloving shit out of me for probably an hour or so before I gave up and went looking for something else to do. I used the teleporter to fight the Traitor Lord over and over again until I managed to beat them with Cloth's help. Found and beat a few more ghosts (FUCK that guy with the shield btw). I'm like only 300 away from awakening the Dream Nail but I'm almost certain the only way left for me to get those 300 essence is to fight one of those god-awful dream bosses. Every single one of which has been so relentlessly unforgiving that I can only do a handful of tries before becoming so frustrated and salty I have to stop.

And now here I am. All my spells are upgraded to the dark versions. My weapon is at the second to last highest tier. I have one of each of the mask and orb to obtain. And ALL of the requirements to finish those upgrades and give myself a slight advantage MAYBE against the Hollow Knight are locked behind even more obscenely hard challenges.

Like for real, I just spent another 30-40 minutes trying to beat the second colosseum challenge the part where they narrow the walls and force you to fight one of those big stompy guys is a moment of absolutely unforgivably hateful game design. I cannot begin to fathom how to deal with this motherfucker. His stomps are too fast and vary just enough in distance to make them impossible to dodge effectively on the ground. And yet I can't bounce on him either even with Mark of Pride because his movements are too erratic. And every single spell I have either has an extremely long wind up or vulnerability period that makes them impossible to use without getting MY FACE STOMPED INTO THE GODDAMN DIRT AGAIN.

And yet this moment of absolute vicious bullying from the developers, this spot where they fucking hold me down and spit in my mouth while giggling like mean schoolgirls is NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO THE END OF THE MOTHERFUCKING MATCH. Even if you get past the horrible narrow stompy asshole you have to fight SO MANY MORE THINGS before you can even get A LITTLE BIT FUCKING CLOSE to the end of this GODDAMN REQUIREMENT to fully upgrade my nail!

I know. I flew off the handle a little there but my god I don't understand how this game doesn't get more screens broken. I watch speedrunners play it all the time and I appreciate the design and how amazing it looks when someone who has the game apparently frame-perfect mastered can just spam attacks and spells in a matter of seconds and beat these challenges down like it's nothing, but my god. I don't know if I can ever begin to approach that level of godlike mastery to defeat this fucker.

 

[air_show]

What kind of charm builds are you running with?

I've been focusing on buffed spells lately. I also like the sharp shadow for increased distance and occasionally doing a little extra damage. But I dunno I feel like maybe I should start speccing more for survivability. But then my reduced damage output makes surviving even harder anyway. I finally put the compass to rest at least, I feel like I know the map well enough now to not need it.

 

[air_show]

Ok. All that complaining and when I started the game back up just now to collect a bunch of charms I've missed all around the map apparently I also, completely without planning it, delivered the delicate flower in a single attempt. I just found a relatively safe path and took it slow.

I did pick up the flower once before, but seeing as I didn't even know the Queen's Garden existed back then of course the flower got destroyed. The dialogue upon picking up the second was was quite hilarious actually. It's shit like this that keeps me coming back to the game.

 

[madhair60]

If you've made it this far into the game you can absolutely beat the game.

Spoiler

The Hollow Knight battle gets easier as you fight it.

 

[RT-55J]

I'm almost certain the only way left for me to get those 300 essence is to fight one of those god-awful dream bosses. Every single one of which has been so relentlessly unforgiving that I can only do a handful of tries before becoming so frustrated and salty I have to stop.

This is exactly what stopped me from getting the best ending tbqh. All those bosses are complete slogs.

 

[estragon]

If you've made it this far into the game you can absolutely beat the game.

Yeah.

Dream Zote is a For Super Players Only challenge on par with the DLC, the 3rd Colloseum fight, and the Path of Pain and is best ignored. (I definitely ignored all of those things.)

It's honestly very impressive that you've done everything so far without fully upgrading the Nail. I think if you're able to manage to solve the 2nd Colosseum fight everything else should be doable, but you're currently a bit on hard mode because you're not doing the amount of damage the endgame encounters like the more fair dream bosses (not Zote, who is a super challenging easter egg that you should ignore) are designed around.

 

[Johnny Unusual]

Dream Zote is a For Super Players Only

Really? Note, I looked up and know you can play him multiple times so I know he levels up 10 times so if you mean after a certain number of levels probably but I found some of the other dream bosses MUCH harder. And I never consider myself to be a hardcore gamer in difficulty (I'm usually happy to pick medium when the option appears). Of course, maybe its because I've the fragile strength and my nail is strengthened twice (I have one more ore I haven't used yet.)

 

[estragon]

I'm probably thinking of the powered up forms then. I'd guess I probably beat the first one, but gave up later? I just remember beating all the other dream bosses but giving up on Zote, but it could have been form 2. Looking it up, the first one is the only one that gives Essence, so I probably did the first one only.

 

[air_show]

Ok, so. Instead of hitting my head against brick walls over and over I went and did as much other stuff as possible. Including collecting every charm and starting the Dracula DLC. I don't have all the charms yet because I haven't yet awakened the Dream Nail and probably won't bother until I've defeated the Hollow Knight. I have googled "Easiest Dream Boss" in preparation however.

In the meantime though after acquiring the Unbreakable Strength charm and by pairing it with Steady Body, Quick Slash, and Long Nail, I managed to beat the 2nd Colosseum challenge on the first attempt. So there's a monkey off my back. With my weapon fully upgraded now (after getting my money back from that banker lady) I should hopefully have a better chance of beating the Hollow Knight. But I decided to take a break for now after all that. Also I got the Unbreakable Greed charm since I had the extra scratch.

I suppose I could also fight Dracula and apparently get one more charm slot for it, which is tempting but I tried to fight him once and was thoroughly intimidated away from that course of action.

 

[air_show]

OK WELL FINE I GUESS I'LL BEAT THE HOLLOW KNIGHT ON THE VERY FIRST TRY AND THEN IMMEDIATELY START A STEEL SOUL SAVE.

For real though I did beat the Hollow Knight on the first attempt of the evening just by using Unbreakable Strength, Grubfly Elegy, and Quick Slash. Spamming damage does the trick again. As soon as the credits finished rolling I decided to hell with it and since I was on the title screen anyway might as well start a Steel Soul save and see how far I can get.

I then proceeded to defeat False Knight and Hornet and save without dying. I feel like I managed to eke by and beat False Knight on my first save without dying but I know Hornet was the first boss to kill me a whole bunch of times, so successfully taking her down in Steel Soul is pretty cool. For now I'm not expecting to beat it, I just want to see how far I can get considering what I've learned. Delivering that flower really made me realize just how much carefully thinking about your progress and moving slowly can make the game feel less overwhelming.

 

[air_show]

Ok. Dracula is literally impossible to beat. There is nothing you can do to survive his bullet hell bullshit and any video I've seen of people defeating this boss is clearly an example of hacking.

 

[Troa11]

Hollow Knight was the game that forced me to stop pressing my attack at every possible moment, stand back and observe the enemy, and then figure out how to dodge and counterattack. I went from barely eeking by my first playthrough (many of your rants sound eerily familiar), to all achievements and being able to 112% the game in under 6 hours. Does some of it require upping your reaction speed? Yeah, it does. But overall it's just pattern recognition and response.

That said, play games to have fun. If you find yourself not having fun at some point, play something else.

 

[Paul le Fou]

Love seeing that growth.

Also, you still have to beat the true final boss, so you're not done yet!

 

[air_show]

Oh I know about that boss. I'm foolishly in the process of moving towards that ending. Just finished the Super Meat Boy section. It was... longer than any section of platforming that ruthless has any right to be but it didn't overstay its welcome either if that makes any sense. I was pleasantly surprised when I reached the end.

I tell ya though, if it weren't for the Hive Blood charm I would have definitely rage quit and uninstalled the game.

 

[air_show]

Oh also my first Steel Soul run ended when I panicked while being hounded by flying mantises and fell in acid three (3) times.

 

[R.R. Bigman]

I never beat Dream Dracula or even saw the ultimate super bosses. Way above my skill level.

One good thing about getting to Hollow Knight late is that you won’t have to wait too long for Silk Song to come out. It’s been rough these past, what, three years?

 

[air_show]

It's regular ass run of the mill garden variety Dracula that's giving me hell. Though I did discover that I straight up missed a charm notch out there in the world meaning I can get to ten without fighting him, so that's nice at least.

I got the void heart so I can do the super mega final boss (though I do not intend to do the ultra mega tiger dragon final boss for the Godseeker ending, because I'm not that much of a masochist). I've seen what that fight looks like though and I'm not particularly looking forward to it.

 

[air_show]

So here's my take on the story and if you didn't believe that spoiler warning in my title here's your last chance to jump ship.

Please note that I've watched a lot of videos of people piecing together the lore and some of what they say may contradict this but I'm choosing to go with just what the game is giving me, and I got nothing but love because it's only because of them I can comprehend this shit at all.

So to me the signs written by the Pale King were addressed to "Higher Beings" and to me it's as simple as, bugs able to read the King's language. Bugs who had enough intellect and capability to read these totems are indeed the Higher Beings of which he speaks. And with a bit of survival advice he challenges them to make it through a few more obstacles to a peaceful village that can give word of some place grander, where other bugs with mind and soul like yourself can make a living and be a part of a civilization.

Because the Pale King just HAD to insist on being the only god worshipped in his realm, he angered a spiteful rage god that much preferred things where everyone was killing and eating each other thank you very much. And she inflicts a plague on his realm that consumes the mind and soul of these bugs and turns them into empty rage beasts like they were out there in the wastelands. What could he do?

Being a bug, he proceeds to make hundreds of thousands, millions maybe, of babies with a fertility goddess and casts them all down into a deep dark pit that consumes all and waits to see if one of them is powerful enough to make it back up. Something so consumed and composed of only darkness will surely be so empty, so hollow, that this burning light of a plague will sink and drown in it forever.

And he thinks it's because of how these Vessels he creates will be perfectly empty emotionless shells that any of this will work. But he's wrong. His kingdom will fall anyway, and the Vessels do have emotions and personality. I think The Knight's quest is to rescue their big sibling and free them from the pain of being forced to be an entire civilization's hate-sink for so long one way or the other.

 

[air_show]

Also Zote is a Vessel no we may not debate this.

 

[Lakupo]

I think Hollow Knight is a beautiful and excellent game overall, but I also think that the game feels too long and it's just kind of a trudge to get around during the middle (plus the Souls death mechanic keeps you going back to places you probably shouldn't come back to, prolonging the length). This is kind of what holds it back from being an all-time favorite for me. It might also be a fool's errand to try to be completionist about it, since there's just so much stuff in the game that just feels hard for the sake of being hard (Dream versions, the boss rush DLC, etc.). I murdered my hands on many attempts at the Path of Pain, failing right at the end so many times, and after all of that, I'm just like, people should YouTube that story clip instead, haha. It's not worth the pain.

Zote is... probably not a vessel. Most people think he's the same species as Elderbug (based on horns and mouth shapes). He's also not from Hollownest either.... "She doesn't even go here!"

 

[Johnny Unusual]

Finished Queen's Garden. I feel like I could be ready to move on and I wasn't going to 100% this but I have one question: is there a way to remove the infection from the Forgotten Crossroads or is that there forever now?

Other than that, I'm going to use my newfound acid invulnerability to look for things but I suspect I won't get all the badges, which is a shame, because I really want to get the reward badge for getting 40 badges. I don't even know if it does anything but it has that goofy face and I wants it.