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How Old Should a Game Be Before It's Considered "Retro"?

Issun

Chumpy
(He/Him)
I've seen the cutoff be 20 years but I've also seen people draw the line between 2d and 3d, or at the end of the PS1/N64 era. I think it's reasonable to consider PSX and N64 games retro at this point, and it's probably too early to consider the PS3/360/Wii generation for that category (though I've seen the argument that they should since they're two generations back now). The era that is most up for discussion, then, would be the PS2/GCN/Xbox era. Is that retro? It ended over 15 years ago. I'm just not sure if games like Metroid Prime, Shadow of the Colossus, Halo 2 and Okami feel like they've earned that moniker just yet.

What do you all think?
 

Becksworth

Aging Hipster Dragon Dad
I would say anything easily emulated on relatively low end hardware, so at least up to Dreamcast/PSP, and approaching PS2/Gamecube.

It's less a time period and more a state of mind.
 
It's completely relative/based on perspective. As kids, the SNES made NES and Atari games look/feel retro/obsolete. But that was also when our perspective of the world and gaming as a whole was very narrow. You talk to kids these days and they talk about the PS3/360 era in the way most of us (I'm making the assumption most of the people here are aging millenials/gen-Xers) would have talked about the Atari/NES gen of games. But those don't really *feel* retro to us, right? Literally a conversation I had with a student recently, "You ever play this retro game called Skyrim?"
 

Issun

Chumpy
(He/Him)
"You ever play this retro game called Skyrim?"
y9YEDGY.gif
 

Sprite

(He/Him/His)
Old enough to have a Retronauts podcast. I think they put the cutoff at ten years.

Anything past ten years is old enough for an adult to go, “oh man, I loved that as a kid!”
 

Isrieri

My father told me this would happen
I consider retro to be around the time of PS2, Xbox, and before; in truth its more that PS3 & Xbox 360 are the cutoff points. Both released around '06-08 and roughly coincide today with where the SNES would have been at that time. All cartridge based gaming is now pretty firmly ancient technology just like laserdisc and VHS.

Super Mario Galaxy is now 15 years old. As old as A Link to the Past was when I first played Galaxy.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
Outside the current gen.

Old enough to have a Retronauts podcast. I think they put the cutoff at ten years.

Anything past ten years is old enough for an adult to go, “oh man, I loved that as a kid!”
I'd say two generations back, so PS3 and 360. It's getting harder to find shops that carry those games and there's a pretty obvious visual distinction between those games and current ones. The big problem is game design has ossified a bit since then so they don't play as differently to modern games as something from PS2 era and back do.
 

Juno

The DRKest Roe
(He, Him)
I personally think "retro" is a poor term because it's a total binary- either something is retro or it isn't, which is too limiting to classify the totality of video game history. Going by the standard of the 10 year cutoff, it would basically mean that, of the 50 or so years of the medium, 40 are in one category and 10 are in another.
 

Purple

(She/Her)
I'm going to be a huge pedant here, so let me break up the original question some:

A game is Retro if, at the time it went into development and was released, it is a deliberate throwback to some ideal which has fallen out of fashion. Bubble Bobble is a retro game. Ion Fury is a retro game. Contra is not a retro game.

A game is a Classic if it is notably well-regarded and still talked about regularly let's say 10+ years after its initial release. Contra is a classic game. Bayonetta is a classic game. Bubsy is not a classic game, nor is Elden Ring.

A game is Old if it was originally designed to run on hardware/operating systems no longer on the market. Also this isn't a line especially worth drawing. Pokemon Sapphire is an old game. Breath of the Wild is not an old game.
 

MetManMas

Me and My Bestie
(He, him)
I recently played through a 17 & 1/2 year-old shooter via a 14 & 1/2 year-old compilation, then played through the puzzle game that debuted with said compilation that's getting a Switch port paired with its 11 year-old sequel sometime this year. This was inspired by playing a recent expanded console version of an 8 & 1/2 year-old expanded remake of an indie visual narrative mod of said shooter that turns 11 at the end of July.

One of the more anticipated Square Enix games this year is a remake of a game that will be turning 28 in September and never had an official localization until said remake, and that will eventually be followed by a remake of a game that's already 34 and might even be 35 by the time the new version comes out.

Our games are old now, it happens.
 

Johnny Unusual

(He/Him)
It must be old enough to insert a copy of its RNA genome into the DNA of a host cell that it invades, thus changing the genome of that cell. I believe this applies to Mr. Do.
 

q 3

here to eat fish and erase the universe
(they/them)
when it's no longer possible to buy non-secondhand hardware that will run it (outside of emulation)
 

ThornGhost

lofi posts to relax/study to
(he/him)
I wonder if there's some consideration to be made about the rapid pace of improvement in the first several hardware generations of video games to the relatively slower rate of change to the last several.

I cannot in good conscious think that the improvement between the first generation of Atari 2600 games as compared to the last generation of NES games isn't by some magnitude more substatitial than the relative difference between the same eras of PS3 and PS4 games. If those later games feel like they seem to take longer to become retro I think there's a reason.

I also think that this rate of change is compounded by our own (presumed) age brackets and our own rapid maturity that dovetailed with those hardware generations and informed our understanding of this development. If you are in that 40 +/- 10 or so years you did a lot of growing up alongside video games. While younger gens may notice stylistic or aesthetic differences in games from more recent generations, those changes are less informed by hardware improvements and the maturation of game design than in previous generations.

I think we on this board try very hard to not be grumpy old folks and hold younger generations experiences as equitable to our own. That's admirable, but in this case I'm not sure it is completely true.
 

Olli

(he/him)
Anything released before the year 2000 is retro. Anything released after that is a metroidvania.
 

ArugulaZ

Fearful asymmetry
I think the law of diminishing returns is a compelling argument. I've recent gone back to my PS3 and Xbox 360 after a couple years of neglect, and they hold up remarkably well for their age. We've reached a point where instead of completely transforming the experience, new game consoles just gild the lily, prettying up the same basic experiences with higher resolutions and frame rates. Hell, Forza Horizon 5 runs better on Xbox Series, but is otherwise nearly identical to the Xbox One version. If you weren't an experienced gamer, you probably wouldn't notice the difference.

One thing that's worth asking is this: were the ColecoVision and Atari 5200 next generation consoles? They're lumped into the same generation as the 2600, Intellivision, Odyssey2, et al, but there's a pretty significant increase in performance over those old machines. It seems like it would make more sense to drop them into the same generation as the NES and Master System, but despite being only a year older than the Famicom, the ColecoVision and Atari 5200 suffer the indignity of being slotted into the second generation, along with less powerful game systems from the late 1970s.

You could make the same argument about the 3DO and Atari Jaguar. Are they contemporaries of the Playstation, Saturn, and Nintendo 64? I would argue yes, but they were released years before the vastly more successful Playstation, so others may argue otherwise. I guess it's true what they say... history is written (and re-written) by the winners.
 

MetManMas

Me and My Bestie
(He, him)
There's definitely been boosts in visual fidelity with each generation, but nothing quite as big as going from NES to SNES or PSone to PS2. I mean, early Xbox 360 games looked like they could've run on the original Xbox...with a hit to graphics and performance obviously, but still.

Really that's it, the big thing most of these new generations tend to bring these days is performance. Higher and/or more stable framerates (occasionally), more environmental details, more detailed models, higher resolution environmental details, the possibilities of bigger environments with more stuff going on, etc.

We already got sandbox games that don't look completely like shit back when the 360 and PS3 really got underway, now the graphics race is more about shoving as much bloom and swaying 2D foliage into an environment as possible. And recreating sickening gruesome violence at such a high level that the early Mortal Kombats look like Looney Tunes in comparison.
 

Regulus

Sir Knightbot
I kinda feel like game design sensibilities haven't change that much since the PS2 era (6th gen?) -- where the "final controller" coalesced. These days, evolution seems to be more focused on how to monetize things.

My personal "retro" cutoff is 5th gen (PS1/N64) era, because the early 3D game design of the era feels pretty distinct from the stuff we started seeing from 6th gen on.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
I'm going to be a huge pedant here, so let me break up the original question some:

A game is Retro if, at the time it went into development and was released, it is a deliberate throwback to some ideal which has fallen out of fashion. Bubble Bobble is a retro game. Ion Fury is a retro game. Contra is not a retro game.

A game is a Classic if it is notably well-regarded and still talked about regularly let's say 10+ years after its initial release. Contra is a classic game. Bayonetta is a classic game. Bubsy is not a classic game, nor is Elden Ring.

A game is Old if it was originally designed to run on hardware/operating systems no longer on the market. Also this isn't a line especially worth drawing. Pokemon Sapphire is an old game. Breath of the Wild is not an old game.
Yeah, I've gone on about the misuse of "retro" before. It really irks me.
I wonder if there's some consideration to be made about the rapid pace of improvement in the first several hardware generations of video games to the relatively slower rate of change to the last several.

I cannot in good conscious think that the improvement between the first generation of Atari 2600 games as compared to the last generation of NES games isn't by some magnitude more substatitial than the relative difference between the same eras of PS3 and PS4 games. If those later games feel like they seem to take longer to become retro I think there's a reason.

I also think that this rate of change is compounded by our own (presumed) age brackets and our own rapid maturity that dovetailed with those hardware generations and informed our understanding of this development. If you are in that 40 +/- 10 or so years you did a lot of growing up alongside video games. While younger gens may notice stylistic or aesthetic differences in games from more recent generations, those changes are less informed by hardware improvements and the maturation of game design than in previous generations.

I think we on this board try very hard to not be grumpy old folks and hold younger generations experiences as equitable to our own. That's admirable, but in this case I'm not sure it is completely true.
Yeah, PS3 and Xbox 360 games have the same design paradigms as modern games. You don't go back to that generation to play lost genres or game styles, generally. It's a shame; everything is so safe nowadays, you don't see inventive new controls or ideas outside of indies any more, and often they aren't that inventive either.
 

Sarge

hardcore retro gamin'
Lots of good points being made here.

At the risk of perhaps annoying some folks, the message board I help moderate is Hardcore Retro Gaming, which is technically an abuse of the term. But it's one that I think is ultimately harmless. Anyway, when my friend set it up, we didn't have an option to discuss modern gaming at all, and draw the line at a fuzzy ten years - we didn't look at dates or anything, basically we could talk about any 2012 game this year. (We do have a modern section now, though.)

For my own personal preferences, I get the consternation over the dates. I find it hard to accept PS3/360 as retro at all, for a couple of the reasons espoused above: as I get older, my perception of time has been altered dramatically, and the style of gameplay, for the most part, hasn't changed a whole lot since the PS2/GC/XBOX generation. PS2/GC/XBOX has started to actually feel retro to me now, so that's where I tend to draw the line, but as the current generation progresses, I'm sure I'll accept those early 360/PS3 titles as "retro" as well. (And for crying out loud, the 360 is almost 17 years old? Woof. I'm getting old.)
 
PS3/360 games feel retro AF these days to me, simply on account of how grueling it can be to endure old school loading times. *Especially* during open world games with fast travel and big load times. Current gen SSD gaming is fucking lit, yo.
 

Purple

(She/Her)
I cannot in good conscious think that the improvement between the first generation of Atari 2600 games as compared to the last generation of NES games isn't by some magnitude more substancial than the relative difference between the same eras of PS3 and PS4 games. If those later games feel like they seem to take longer to become retro I think there's a reason.

I kinda feel like game design sensibilities haven't change that much since the PS2 era (6th gen?) -- where the "final controller" coalesced. These days, evolution seems to be more focused on how to monetize things.

My personal "retro" cutoff is 5th gen (PS1/N64) era, because the early 3D game design of the era feels pretty distinct from the stuff we started seeing from 6th gen on.
If I was just going with my at-the-moment gut feeling and trying to draw just one line in the sand "developed to play on hardware that has in-built support for polygonal graphics" would be where I'd put it, yeah. Give or take a year or two for the weird standardization of all controllers/generally universal PC/console benchmark and associated normalization of ubiqitous multiplatform releases.

That being said, I have always been of the opinion that the whole "Xth gen" terminology is totally worthless, arbitrary, and confusing. Like if you really really want to insist on a numbered system based on console releases, it would actually make more sense to count by Playstations and just accept that you're going to call the period where it was all about the SNES and Genesis "the PS0 generation" and the NES' reign "the PS negative 1 generation" and... honestly the fact that prior to that it was kind of just the wild west is why it's so damn weird that we're claiming 2 generations existed. That part really feels just backfilled from the 7200 technically being around at the same time as the NES except wait the 2600 and 5200 are both "2nd gen" and "1st gen" is just various closed-box Pong clones.

If you really want to look at things from a historical perspective, I'd think the thing to do is focus on points where developers had and noticeably used new options on the table, and accept that there's going to be a lot of parallel threads running up until... basically the release of the Switch, honestly?

So just offhand...

Early Electronic Games- You have videogame things that are really one-offs not proper consoles, and for resolving corner cases I don't actually care if you technically have swappable cards/carts/boards until we're loading them up with ROMs significant enough that we're porting Asteroids/Space Invaders/etc. to the format. Furthermore there's no requirement here of a CRT being involved. If you wanna call oldschool arcade light projector gun games, pinball tables, or Operation early electronic games, cool.

Early/Pre-Crash/In-House Consoles- Basically everything predating the NES goes here, and that actually should probably include at least the earliest Famicom games. This is the period where hey, this arcade game is really popular. Let's allow these people making home game consoles have permission and whatever notes we have lying around to code ports of it to their things as best they can.

3rd Party Console Development- The start of where developing games explicitly for consoles, rather than just porting things to consoles, really became a thing, particularly but not exclusively with the Famicom. Very notably, here's where Capcom and Konami really started doing their things. Less score chasing, more exploring going on.

FDS- At this point the Famicom is pretty much The Console, and here comes The Add-On that let people do stuff on it beyond the initial capacity and in particular, get kinda sprawl-y and save-and-come-back-later with design concepts.

Cart-Cramming- There's a pretty clear line where Famicom/NES games with extra/better guts started displacing the FDS, and while it's harder to see from North America where we kinda started here and got a bunch of old ports mixed in, it was a real clear game-changer in terms of what could actually be done and where the bar was for complexity and amount of content.

16-Bit- Straight-forward enough I don't need to elaborate.

Media Transition- There might be some other significant milestones I'm just not aware of, between this and the last one, but there is a point where CDs and laserdiscs were really catching on, along with people getting their toes wet with 3D modeling, wherein we had a lot of failed launches of new disc-based consoles, add-ons for existing consoles, and games being designed for things that never came to be and compromised in interesting ways. Plus the whole pre-rendered graphics look.

Early 3D and late 2D- Here's the big proper PSX/N64/Saturn jump, where everyone was making either the same sort of games they were previously but with broader color palettes and they're probably like 100 hours long or full of splashy cutscenes, OR they're diving in with 3D, trying to work out how that works, not really bothering with textures, really experimenting a lot with basic approaches to level geometry and how-do-I-even-camera.

3D Standards Established- Or, Every Game Is Now Ocarina of Time, Final Fantasy 7, or Resident Evil. I don't mean that derisively, but by like 1998 or so, everyone pretty much got in lock-step that you move with the left stick, adjust the camera with the right (PS there are sticks now), use a shoulder button to lock onto a target, always put textures on every polygon, hide pop-in with fog, and you either walk a relatively high poly character around on some pre-rendered scenes or you run around in full 3D cribbing everything you can from the UI of the first game to really establish how that's done. Also we have a really really codified list of genres, and nobody's trying any weird Tail of the Sun type stuff anymore.

Everything Is GTA3 Now- Or, [placeholder for if I can find that "Driving Sections! Shooting Sections! Stealth Sections!" video again]. Early games for the PS2/Gamecube era of things really weren't meaningfully different from what came before except for maybe looking a little cleaner, until GTA3 came along and then literally everyone was just going for that "open world" kitchen-sink approach and all the genres kinda collapsed into this mush of 3rd person action with RPG elements and maybe first-persony shooting and you probably have a car or at least a horse and they're kinda still that now and we call them "Triple A Games."

Everything Is GTA3 Now- Or...
Early games for the PS2/Gamecube era of things really weren't meaningfully different from what came before except for maybe looking a little cleaner, until GTA3 came along and then literally everyone was just going for that "open world" kitchen-sink approach and all the genres kinda collapsed into this mush of 3rd person action with RPG elements and maybe first-persony shooting and you probably have a car or at least a horse and they're kinda still that now and we call them "Triple A Games."

A BIG SCHISM HAPPENED HERE

No I said OPEN WORLD games!- Or, Vast empty brown fields of rocks, which you can use as cover! As we all seem to agree things have been really really stagnant since controllers were standardized and draw distances pushed out past like, 15 feet, so the next points of interest I can think of is the jump to the PS360 establishing DLC as a Thing, which had a pretty profound effect on how all nearly games are designed, and the big push towards just having stupidly huge world maps which it's tempting to pin on Bethesda but I feel like Assassin's Creed where the industry went "yeah, this is the thing we're doing now."

Games As Service- Big ol' shift to doing all kinds of stuff server-side, even in theoretically single-player games, lootboxes, chasing that Battle Royale trend, matchmaking algorithms, etc. You are here. Which is impressive because I think we've been here for like 2 and a half console generations now.

... however, getting back to that big schism! While everyone who generally kind of "identifies as a gamer" has been over there with the universal controller standard and the Action-RPG-shooter-stealth-explore'em-ups, most people, generally, took the other path.

Stomp and Shake- DDR was kind of huge, and lead pretty quickly into your Sambas del Amigo, your Rock Bands, and of course, all that Wii shovelware (plus Wii Sports which is great and you know it's great).

Home Mo-Cap and AR- Somewhere on this branch, people got sick of all the plastic instruments, and decided to see what could be done with cameras instead. So you've got the whole Kinect thing happening, the eyetoy, a bunch of stuff with the 3DS camera you were blown away by when you first got it and then totally forgot was a thing. This sort of stuff is still going strong.

This would lead to another clear era here, of VR gaming, but... broadly speaking nobody actually seems to really want that except for neo-nazi venture capitalists really really aggressively pushing specific hardware that costs too much and strangling put-a-cellphone-in-a-cardboard-box technology in the crib.


And all that's just consoles! I'm less qualified but chopping up arcade boards in a similar fashion makes sense, plus whatever was going on in the PC gaming scenes in the UK and on the MSX, which I doubt map particularly well to consoles, or eachother, or the DOS and Apple ][ scenes, and it's kinda really important with any sort of look at game history to very explictly note when Wizardry happened. And then there's the whole history of FPS games and notable engine developments there, PC OS boundaries, whenever it is when we stopped having 20% of the screen be the game boxed in by really ornate UI elements and maybe the title of the game, maybe just a big hot girl in there somewhere, or some skulls.
 
That doesn't feel quite right.
When I was a kid in the 90s, "Oldies" radio stations used to play music from the 60s. That music seemed ancient and obsolete and lame. Hell, even 80s music felt 'retro' in the 90s. Now, all the music I listened to growing up is older than the oldies music was when I was a kid. None of my music *feels* ancient and obsolete and lame. But to the kids growing up today that's exactly how they see it. (At least the close minded ones.)

All of this is relative. We grow older, our perceptions of time change; when we were kids, 10 years was a lifetime. Now it's quickly beginning to feel like a rounding error. But 10 years is still objectively a lot of time for a lot of changes to accumulate. Our perspectives as burgeoning old people keeps us from seeing that sometimes. Consoles and their games themselves have felt very iterative in the last few generations, but there's been monumental shifts in the gaming landscape in the past decade.

The shift to SSDs has meant the complete reversal of decades long trends of loading times going up. Cloud gaming isn't just a fantasy or a ponzi scheme, but something that's real and actually works kind of well. The last decade has seen the mobile gaming space completely eclipse traditional consoles regarding gross revenues and where the vast majority of the population plays games on - something the discussion here by most people fixated on traditional consoles has completely overlooked. And the complexity of those games has gone from Fruit Ninja/Flappy Birds to playing full fledged AAA experiences like Fortnite and PUB-G. In the last decade, we've seen mid-tier games go from being completely extinct, to thriving once more on places like Switch, mobile phones, PC, and online. We went from gamers nearly revolting over the Xbox One's DRM/diskless ambitions, to that essentially becoming accepted as almost default these days. 10 years has been enough time for wireless technology - everything from wifi to bluetooth - to mature enough that it's become a fully competent and acceptable replacement for almost all cabling. Ten years has seen the rise of streaming, which has completely revolutionized how people interact with games and the fandom communities that surrounds them. We've seen the walled off gardens of online multiplayer almost completely crumble and surrender to cross platform playing. We've seen the console space almost completely reject specialized architecture in favor of standardized ARM/AMD guts. There's been a LOT of change in the gaming spaces over the last decade.
 

gogglebob

The Goggles Do Nothing
(he/him)
If I'm repeating what has already been said in this thread, I'm not ignoring your contribution. Consider it me absolutely agreeing with you. That said...

As was mentioned, I feel the "ten years" thing is right for identifying classic games. An eight year old can play and enjoy a game, and then write about it (or start a tik tok channel or whatever keeps these kids off my lawn) at 18 in college when revisiting their childhood. And, yeah, that is the exact arc I had in my own life, so ten years sounds right. There seems like less of a "jump" today than there was back when the OG Xbox was emulating NES titles, but ten years is still long enough to generate the proper nostalgia required.

That said, if we're going to focus on verbiage, I feel we should distinguish "classic" and "retro" games. In my own thinking, "classic" is anything over ten years old. "Retro" is specifically any game utilizing a playstyle that is evoking a game that is over ten years old. Mega Man 10 (at release) was a retro title, and so was Mega Man 11, as they both were very deliberately evoking the older Mega Man titles. At its release, I would NOT say Mega Man ZX Advent was a retro title (aside from its distinct retro mode), as its gameplay was a modern evolution of Mega Man gameplay, not an attempt to emulate the older style. Similarly, I feel that Kingdom Hearts 3 was a retro title very much trying to bring back a specific style of Playstation 2 games, but Final Fantasy 15 and/or Stranger of Paradise were both games that used repurposed classic elements, but were still modern titles.

It... is incredibly arbitrary. But it is definitely one of those art/pornography "I know it when I see it" things.
 
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