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Blobbing Along - Talking About First Person Dungeon Crawling

The only EO game with a post-game boss and stratum that felt to me like a natural extension of game balance was EOV. All of the others just convinced me to give up, but EOV stayed tough but fair the entire time. All of these others, you tended to need a very particular party either to beat the bosses that raise the level cap or to beat the postgame final boss itself, and that just makes me give up. Those types of Atlus postgame puzzle bosses are fine in Megami Tensei where you can more easily adjust your party composition and skills, but I'm not a fan of it in this series.

(Also I guess Untold 1 in the narrative mode has an easy "postgame" boss, because it's more of an event battle there where you fight a special weaker version of that boss, so that doesn't count...)
 

Purple

(She/Her)
I basically broke at the final post game boss in Etrian Untold 1. I keep meaning to grind to beat it but I think that's a pipe dream.
The post-game boss in original EO1 required me to radically reconfigure my whole party in some weird ways (I think I straight up took all healing off my medic and went all in on putting up the biggest forcefield and being secretly the best melee class), backed up with initiative control and a bunch of other nonsense. And as has been said, plot-mode's capper is fine. If you have to fight that original last boss though with Untold's... let's say reconsideration of the Immunize skill, yeah that sounds pretty brutal.
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
FWIW, I recently played through the post-game of EOIV in its entirety without having to reorganize or respec my party in any significant way, that I can recall. It was quite difficult at times (a couple of the post-game bosses took me several tries, and I almost gave up on the final ultimate dark dragon or whatever before finally squeaking out the win), but always felt very fair. I suppose perhaps I could have just been lucky in already stumbling upon a suitable post-game party composition. Also, I *loved* the game's final stratum, which felt like EO, spooky haunted house edition.

I fell off of the post-games of EO through EOIII, but IIRC, it was because I found those games too long and got bored and wandered away. (I literally got up to the final post-game boss of EO3, turned off my DS, and then went on vacation for two weeks and never booted up the game again, which current me is still upset with past me over). Maybe I'd have felt 1 & 2's post-games to be unfair if I'd play further, though! I certainly wouldn't have ever agreed to grind-- grinding is my kryptonite.
 

Purple

(She/Her)
2's post game honestly feels weirdly easy next to the rest of the series. It certainly helps if you know the trick to kill the final final boss in uh... was it one round or two?
 
The original EO1 had some weird quirks with its postgame, like full party instadeath attacks that you could only consistently defend against by putting 5/10 points (no more, no less) into the appropriate elemental guard skill (nullifying the element nullifies the instadeath as well, but absorbing the element means the instadeath turns back on). Combined with a much less generous approach to re-allocating skills, there was a really good chance you'd have to grind without luck or foreknowledge.
 
2's post game honestly feels weirdly easy next to the rest of the series. It certainly helps if you know the trick to kill the final final boss in uh... was it one round or two?
I've heard Untold rebalances 2 in general to remove the weirdly low HP that bosses have relative to the rest of the series.
 

Purple

(She/Her)
Untold 2 makes a ton of changes and they really elevate it from possibly the worst in the series to possibly the best, but you know, it's still like a 3 or 4 way tie.
 
Untold 2 makes a ton of changes and they really elevate it from possibly the worst in the series to possibly the best, but you know, it's still like a 3 or 4 way tie.
Maybe I'll accept that 1 isn't happening at this time and I'll do 2.
 
I have indeed started Untold 2, but I'm compromising by setting up Untold 1 to grind slowly on its own using autopaths. I didn't let myself do that until now on the thinking it would take all the fun out of the game but I think the final post game boss is a fair enough time to do so.
 

Purple

(She/Her)
Generally raw levels don't have a huge impact on bosses, but it can be nice having the extra skill points. Getting gear topped off is way more important. And if you're feeling grindy, remember all bosses respawn like 2 weeks after being killed, so kill'em all, nap for 2 weeks, repeat, is probably the most efficient way to get stupid piles of cash/XP.
 
Generally raw levels don't have a huge impact on bosses, but it can be nice having the extra skill points. Getting gear topped off is way more important. And if you're feeling grindy, remember all bosses respawn like 2 weeks after being killed, so kill'em all, nap for 2 weeks, repeat, is probably the most efficient way to get stupid piles of cash/XP.
I'm pretty sure the most efficient way is the way where I don't have to touch the controller.
 
I'm not entirely sure why it feels fair in my mind to automate leveling using in-game tools but not to lower the difficulty, but everyone is all leveled now. I'll probably get my team into skill point shape and try the final boss again this weekend. If they need more work I'll get to grimoire grinding 🥳.
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
rjSnqKC.jpg


I’ve taken the opportunity (“opportunity”) presented by getting Covid and confining myself to two rooms in my house in hopes of not infecting the family to play Madou Monogatari I for Game Gear. It’s a pretty pleasant little dungeon crawler, though I suppose technically not a blubber since you’ve only got one party member: six-year old Arle, who is required to retrieve three magical orbs from a tower full of monsters in order to graduate kindergarten.

This is not a game that takes itself too seriously, but it’s got a lot of charm. It opens with the compile carbuncle character roaring in a circle like the MGM lion and has a lot of other voice clips throughout (most frequently for me, “ice storm!”). It starts with the character automatically moving through a dungeon and getting killed by a cockatrice, then waking up and being sent into the dungeon for real. The start of the game is pretty rough - I was saving after almost every combat and dying a lot (it’s a good idea to make a save as soon as the intro finishes so you don’t wind up watching it over and over). Once I got a few levels I was barely dying at all (until I encountered the cockatrice for real, which is where I am now, I think right at the end of the game). Like in resident evil, you don’t get a health bar or number - Arle’s facial expression will change depending on how she’s doing, and she tells you when she’s running out of MP. The same goes for enemies. There is an experience bar though - a series of gems ringing the screen light up after fights, and once the whole ring is on you level up. I think this also restores HP/MP but it’s hard to tell.

Most of the usual first person tricks are here - false walls, one-way doors, spinners, darkness, pitfalls and so on. They’re counteracted by the in-game map, which is automatic and always available. Early on you can find a compass so you know which way you’re facing, but even before then you can just open the map to see it. That said, the map only shows doors and walls, so I wound up drawing my own to have stairs, suspicious walls, ice floors, and so on. Each floor is 8x8, very manageable. There are some puzzles I would have expected to need a guide to figure out, like needing to bump into certain walls or one where you have to freeze a wall and then melt the ice so that dirt will wash away, but actually I got them myself.

Once I finish this there are a couple more Game Gear games in the series. It was originally released for MSX as Madou Monogatari 123, with the GG releases splitting into three separate games. Not sure yet if I’ll follow up with the others.
 

JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
I posted about this elsewhere, but just to get the eyes on it that might be most interested, I'll mention it here as well:
Potatoes Flowers in Full Bloom is really good. Just very charming in a way that trailers and screenshots don't really convey, and yet surprisingly mechanically dense. And very adeptly translated (it looked like the sort of Japanese dungeon crawler that often doesn't get a very good English translation). It also looks... bizarrely good despite its minimalist presentation. Nice lighting effects, and it does some fun stuff with the lighting.

Pretty much my only complaint is that it made me kill the cutest wolves that I've ever seen in a video game.
Anyway, it's on Steam for cheap and it's about the most fun I've had with a dungeon crawler in ages. It doesn't overstay its welcome, and is in and out in about 20 hours, and I enjoyed all 20 of those hours. A fun and novel take on a kind of ossified genre with some real fun ideas that I won't spoil here. Highly recommended.
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
I’ve been replaying Phantasy Star, this time with my kids. I’ve told them it was a game that was around when I was a kid, which is true although I didn’t actually play it until later. We’re using the switch port, which is pretty good. They immediately had me increase the size of the game screen and I was surprised that the new overlay of party HP/MP is positioned in a way that covers over enemy HP in battle, which is annoying. You can turn it off, but that takes away the auto map as well. We’ve since switched to a smaller game screen.

We’re using the mode that gives fewer encounters with larger exp/money drops, which is good but kind of makes the start a little tedious since you still need to grind a bit for a level or two and to get cash to upgrade equipment before you’re safe to venture out (we restarted twice after losing unfavourable encounters before I had the sense to save the game on leaving the first town). It increases the time spent wandering the map waiting for encounters. Since then, no complaints. The kids actually wanted to grind at first - they wanted us to have 1000 mesetas before buying anything. For the most part I’m doing the actual controlling, especially in the dungeons. They’re finding the first person thing a bit hard.

We’ve just recruited Noah, having successfully found the cake shop. The kids are doing pretty well at remembering what we’re supposed to be doing and reminding me where to go when we get a new key item. I showed them that you can talk to some enemies, now the younger one wants to resolve as many combats as possible peacefully while the elder wants to kill them all regardless.

We haven’t explored as thoroughly as I would on my own. The kids are scared of Medusa and don’t want to be in any cave where she might be, so I had to rescue Odin over their objections. There’s another cave near the start that we haven’t gone very far in because it might have Medusa, though looking at my earlier posts in this thread I see that it doesn’t. One help for exploration in this version is that it shows hidden doors on the map when you go past them. We found one in Noah’s cave that way with 2000MST and a RD.DRAGON in it that almost wiped out our party before we ran away and crawled back to town with Alis solo. I thought the 2000MST must have been an increase in this port given other chests have like 50, but looking at my maps earlier in this thread I found the same secret on my earlier playthrough and it was 2000 then as well.

I think the kids are enjoying it. The younger one asked if I liked it as a kid because Alis is a girl and I was in love with her.
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
Played some more Phantasy Star with the kids today. We got our own rocket today, which involved a bit of figuring out. I’ve been impressed by how many clues my kids are remembering, but I did wind up hinting pretty heavily at what they needed to do to find Hapsby (this guy says there’s a robot in the junk here, oh we have this stuff that dissolves anything except Laconia, what did that other guy say the robot is made from?).

We’re now on the ice planet, where my kids have chosen to grind for cash for the digger rather than explore the several other locations available to us and let the money accrue naturally despite my suggesting it. It’s partly my fault for buying the laser gun over their objections. At least this port has increased money drops.
 
I don't think I'll have time for this soon because all my gaming time is still taken up by coop Baldur's Gate 3, but Islands of the Caliph looks like a cool throwback action dungeon crawler:


It positions itself as an 80s keyboard only dungeon crawler throwback and the pixel art is reminiscent of that, but the environments are (not surprisingly) rendered in 3D which gives it a bit of an Etrian Oddysey look. Early impressions seem relatively positive.

Posting this at least partly so that I remember that it exists when I look at this thread again someday...

edit: There's also a demo, if anyone wants to try. Would be interested in hearing about anyone's experience with it!
 
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JBear

Internet's foremost Bertolli cosplayer
(He/Him)
Looks neat! On the wishlist it goes, but at that price I might just buy it on a whim sooner rather than later.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)

Strongly recommending Quester for blobber lovers (or Metro Quester as it's known in the recent console ports). This was a game that I really didn't know what to expect from, and it surprised me pleasantly in most every way. It positions itself as a streamlined dungeon RPG which is nonetheless not lacking for mechanical substance, and I think it manages to walk that difficult line very well.

It presents one mega-dungeon which you slowly uncover and map out, clearing away debris tiles, scavenge for materials and food, and find new campsites to begin another day's explorations from, as there's a resource limit on each excursion that ticks down with practically every action within the dungeon. Exploration feels extremely rewarding in terms of itemization and discoveries made, as campsites often unlock new party members (randomized per playthrough past the initial party; to recruit all New Game+ is required), equipment drops via enemies or treasure-containing safes are plentiful and significant, and boosting the level cap beyond the initial max of 20 requires taking on passage-blocking major enemies and bosses, each bumping up the cap by 2. The game loop is well in hand throughout the entire game, and combat itself is also somewhat uniquely positioned in that it's blazingly fast once you set up your actions, and only meant to be adjusted per turn on the rare occasions that a tougher enemy requires more specialized tactics.

Every 10 levels, a character learns a passive or action skill within their class (mostly shared, but the order in which they learn them are different, so characters have some differences especially at lower levels), but most of their available actions come through equipment choices, which are not simply stat sticks but dictate which attacks and skills are available to that character; a weapon is effectively a moveset. This higher impact equipment choices possess than in most other RPGs means you have less of them to fiddle with per character, at two weapons and one accessory slot each, so you do less micro-managing but consider synergies more actively meaningfully--either for the character's own turn actions and AP costs, or how they might play into contributing to the party's stock of combat resources via drugs, batteries, explosives, and so on.

Despite all the complex equations that might occur during battle, there is no post-battle recovery routine, as everyone automatically restores to full health and the relevant resources replenish--all that's expended is a portion of the purifying fuel that's used for exploration, and so you can play recklessly and have characters die in battles, and all you're really punished with is a somewhat shorter duration on an expedition. The meaningful dripfeed of resources never really stops mattering, as the very straightforward upgrade system (a weapon combines with itself into a +1 version, and so forth with higher tiers) keeps every potential drop or treasure relevant all the way through, so fighting in the game did not become wearisome, as some facet of character-building and powering up was always taking place.

I appreciate the game's hands-off approach in storytelling too, as you only get the briefest of narrations and suggestions of a narrative beyond a premise, all the rest to be filled with your own imaginings. Kazushi Hagiwara as Bastard!!'s author is one of the long-enduring super-perverts of his industry, and I'm somewhat surprised that something this effectively benign apparently came about through his brainspace and creative influence. The character designs range from a kind of hyper-detailed military otakuism to the more expected sexualized angles, but whether framed against his own oeuvre, or this larger genre's, they're actually sort of restrained by comparison (I also assume he isn't the only artist designing the characters, judging from the present art styles). It's a weird and interesting thing to discover in the form presented here.

Quester took me about 18 hours to finish, and whether or not I go for a new loop in New Game+ it stands apart positively in the genre akin to some other briefer-than-standard experiences, like Dungeon Encounters and Potato Flowers in Full Bloom. Each of these games have professed a deep and insightful love for the genre, but not in a slavishly authentic way that limited their own particularities and experiments with the form--rather they are confident that the core tenets of their shared love will come across without adhering to a prescribed scripture, and hold fast to a belief that the genre is enduring because it can be so diversely interpreted. For a game that specifically thanks the community manager of the Wizardry fan club in its credits, I think it speaks to a creative flexibility even as its passion is sourced from the oldest vintage possible.
 

Yimothy

Red Plane
(he/him)
I got Quester on steam, where it’s currently half price, and I am looking forward to playing it when I find the time.
 
I played it for a bit and returned it pretty fast on Steam. I saw people comparing it to Dungeon Encounters but it doesn't feel much like that at all. I think it's the randomly generated nature of it but it all just feels kind of bland.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
The characters that show up across a playthrough are randomized, and so are the treasures you might find, but notably the dungeon has a set layout that's very deliberately designed in terms of funnels, chokepoints, divided habitats for the bestiary, secrets, and checkpoints. If it was procedurally generated I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much, I think.
 

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
Hmm... I wouldn't have cared, but then you said "Potato Flowers"...
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
I thought I communicated what I wanted to with that last paragraph, but just to clarify and hopefully dissuade false expectations: I don't think this game is anything like Dungeon Encounters or Potato Flowers as directly comparable game experiences; none of them do remotely the same thing when put next to each other. The reason I would and have grouped them together is simply that I enjoyed all of them, and because they all approach one of the oldest video game concepts there is from their own, novel angles--the intent wasn't to make a "if you enjoyed this, you might also like" sell.
 

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
Hmm, but even so... It's half off on Steam right now, and that's enough to get me to try it, I think. I appreciate the recommendation either way.
 

Peklo

Oh! Create!
(they/them, she/her)
Thanks! It's just something I thought to underline because of this genre's fundamental niche appeal, where so much of it is powered by iterative nostalgia and grasps at authenticity. If I want to play a nouveau-Wizardry, I can go to places like The Dark Spire or Elminage; if I want to play a Megami Tensei in the old style, Touhou Artificial Dream in Arcadia is there. Those kinds of games riff on their inspirations so directly and matter-of-factly without a shred of pretense of being anything else that you can't even characterize them as brazen for it. That's why it's always nice to have a complement and counterpart in works that are unafraid to improvise around the codified structures and conventions that are so immortalized by others.
 

Mogri

Round and round I go
(he)
Staff member
Moderator
I'm back after beating Quester. Interesting game, and it reminds me of one I've been thinking of making for some time: the basic exploration concept is essentially the same, where you have a limited amount of exploration you can do per trip, and you need to discover new home points to keep going. The key difference is that this game is an RPG. That's not really vestigial here, although I think the non-fuel resource management kind of is: you're never at risk of running out of food or materials.

The in-battle resources also seemed pointless at first, but of course, by the end of the game, most of your actions take some kind of resource, and my tank had a passive party-wide heal of 3 HP per drug. That doesn't sound like much, but it was 21 HP across five party members each round at the end. I don't know how I would've won without it.

No one else was nearly as influential. You can swap one damage dealer for another fairly interchangeably. The starting Professor deserves special mention, though, for getting benched almost immediately and for 80% of the game before coming back as one of my MVPs after I got some nice gear exclusive to that class.
 

MrBlarney

(he / him)
I saw that Quester was back on half-off sale on Steam, so I decided to pick it up. After completing the first quarter of the map, I'm grooving with it. I took a half hour to learn the mechanics, then restarted and things have gone fairly smoothly from there. Thanks to understanding that non-Fuel resources replenish for free at the end of each battle, I've been able to essentially Bravely (not-Default) auto-battle my way through most standard encounters. Who cares that Lisa (Professor class) is generating tons of enmity from bombing the whole enemy formation when they're not going to get enough reprisal actions to knock her down? Of course, in the earliest parts of the game, before getting some experience and equipment behind my team, many encounters were on a razor edge between success and failure, and boss enemies always require some attention to the actions you queue up, and an instant retreat when the random actions don't roll right. Maybe it's me getting older and appreciating simple experiences, but it's kind of nice to be mostly brain off and just let the remaining lizard brain produce positive vibes by seeing number go up and to collect shinies. Discovering the 'twist' or 'key' to the first area, namely that there are cracked, breakable walls was surprisingly pleasing, despite how simple it was.

Amusingly, the first four additional recruits that the game has decided to give me have been the two alternative characters for each of the Mobile Police (tank) and Buddhist (healer) classes. So I still haven't seen three of the classes in the game. Not really missing that lack of variety much so far, since among those characters I've got two Healing Aroma passives (that party-wide heal ability mentioned in Mogri's post) which has made standard encounters even more free to engage with.
 
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