• Welcome to Talking Time's third iteration! If you would like to register for an account, or have already registered but have not yet been confirmed, please read the following:

    1. The CAPTCHA key's answer is "Percy"
    2. Once you've completed the registration process please email us from the email you used for registration at percyreghelper@gmail.com and include the username you used for registration

    Once you have completed these steps, Moderation Staff will be able to get your account approved.

13 Years Later... Are Limited Continues Still Some BS or What?

Are limited continues nonsense?


  • Total voters
    59

ShakeWell

Slam Master
(he, etc.)
Back in 2008-ish, I posted about how limited continues are some bullshit on the old board.

Having just played a bunch of Revenge of Shinobi (a game with no stage select, passwords, saves, etc), I am reminded that, yes, limited continues are, in fact, some bullshit. As much as I didn't love them at 25, I fucking hate them at 38. I absolutely do not have time for your nonsense, game. Spending an hour to get a crack at the last stage, just to lose all three of my continues to the final boss AGAIN is not my idea of time well-spent.

Obviously, there are a lot of ways now to circumvent this, but of course, I'm playing on real hardware with a model of flash cart that doesn't have save states. But am I off base here? I seem to recall most Tyrants agreed back then, I would honestly expect more do now.

I honestly tend to go with the third option. If you don't want me to just credit feed through a game, I guess I get it. Time Crisis II on PS2 starts you with just a couple credits, each time you exhaust all of them, you get one more next time you play. Once you hit, I think, 10 it just becomes infinite. Gradius V does this with hours played, as do some other shoot-'em-ups. What say you?
 

Zef

Find Your Reason
(He/Him)
Limited continues on a home console are nonsense. If I reach level 5 and die, it's because I made a mistake in level 5, or because I can't figure out the patterns of a boss, or because I haven't learned to make good use of my tools in that level. I don't need fail multiple times, then have to replay the entire game, to get to the part I need to learn. It just disincentivizes me to play again if I keep playing the same stages over and over until I hit the same wall every time.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
I'd go even further, and just abolish lives, but I have a strong dislike against repeating stuff I already beat, and want to redo the very thing I died at immediately. I just don't see a point in making the player repeat stuff. I'd prefer there to be achievements, because I like this stuff as voluntary challenges.
 

lincolnic

can stop, will stop
(he/him)
Nobody needs to keep us from beating games in one rental, and we don't need to keep pumping quarters into any arcade machines anymore. Limited continues are absolute bullshit*.

*Of course, if you're playing an old game like Shakewell is, you're stuck with them, but I'm thinking about it from a modern games perspective.
 

Phantoon

I cuss you bad
While I vote yes, unlimited continues do adversely affect certain genres. I loved my playthrough of Forgotten Worlds but I suspect that if I hadn't credit- fed my weaselly little hide to the end I may have played it more than once and got more out of it.
 
I voted no, but I think slowly increasing your number of continues is neat the few times I've encountered it. Most action platformers and classic-style games of this type should have a generous number of continues so you don't have to start all over when you die to the final boss. I like the threat of starting over though when I'm brand new to a game and haven't even seen half the levels.
 

R.R. Bigman

Coolest Guy
I still think lives have a place in certain types of games, but hard game overs after a few continues is too much. It’s the one aspect of the older Contra games that makes me upset.
 

Sarge

hardcore retro gamin'
I don't think any of the options quite encapsulate how I feel about them. For most games, yeah, it's not great. I like checkpointing with unlimited continues in most genres. The place where I don't think this holds up, though, is in shoot-'em-ups that let you continue in place. While I will always enjoy credit-feeding my way to victory in arcade games (and let's be real, the balance is often tilted towards encouraging that behavior), I think a well-balanced number of continues/lives in those games can make the experience more meaningful, forcing you to learn patterns to get through.

I think game length factors into this, too. A game that is normally less than an hour doesn't kill me if I have limited continues. A game like Blaster Master, though, should never have limited continues due to its length. Difficulty factors in, too - changing Ninja Gaiden III to limited continues was horrible. Battletoads is the very definition of a trial-and-error game that shouldn't have such a limited pool of continues.

Games that let you earn extra continues, though, like Bionic Commando, are a-ok in my book.
 

Alixsar

The Shogun of Harlem
(He/him)
It's fine. Continues/lives/respawns etc. exist in different game in different ways for different reasons. It's more important that it "fits" than there being One True Way™. For instance, Super Meat Boy without instant respawns and infinite tries would be a God damn nightmare, but it doesn't have that because of how that game is. But fighting the final boss of a brutally difficult game and knowing you've got ONE LAST CHANCE can up the tension in ways that knowing "fuck it I can just do it again" can't. As I said, as long as it "fits" what the game is trying to do, it's fine.
 

Lokii

(He/Him)
Staff member
Moderator
I think if the intent or conception of the game is one predicated on overcoming a particular challenge then that is part of the identity of the game. That is to say, a game's difficulty is part of what makes the game what it is, a piece of its identity and part of the unique character that defines the game in the world of this medium. I feel like player convenience trumps all other considerations of game design most of the time, and maybe that's right and correct, but at the same time I wonder what might be lost when we only look at games through the lens of how much they placate the player.

I don't want to misspeak and have this argument come across as against accessibility issues or make a hardline stance like "games shouldn't have easy modes" or anything like that, but I do feel that creators should have the space to experiment and discover the kind of experience they want to try to communicate. Like Alixsar indicates above, sometimes a hard unforgiving design fits the game. But also sometimes a game's character might be a product of unintentional design. Like, did Nintendo intend Zelda II to be so difficult in the way it is? I don't know. Maybe it was, maybe it was a mistake. Regardless, the uncompromising difficulty is part of what makes Zelda II... Zelda II! If it didn't have that it would be a different experience, maybe one more fun, maybe not. The point is that it would be a different experience, have a different character. One where "Game Over Return of Ganon" isn't part of our heritage and shared gaming language.

I feel like a lot of game discourse is stuck on the question "is this game fun?" That seems like a limiting view to me, one that ignores the range of being that a game can inhabit. A game's character can be unfun, frustrating, sloppy, haphazard, unconsidered, or unfair. All these contribute to the game's character. It's state of being. Once we remove the need to justify a game's "fun factor" I feel we can appreciate the breath of character that is available in this medium.
 

WildcatJF

Let's Pock (Art @szk_tencho)
(he / his / him)
I just don't have the patience to deal with limited continues any more. I save state much of the time so I can just get through a game and continue having fun with it; I don't really enjoy repeating stuff I've already done any more. And if I can't save state, I do want to be able to keep going somewhat near to where I left off. Seems mean spirited to just take that away from the player. And I don't care if rentals were impacting the bottom line, as it was pretty anti consumer back then too.

If you enjoy challenge and replayability, that's great, but I'm not wired that way, haha.
 

RT-55J

space hero for hire
(He/Him + RT/artee)
It depends on how long the game is. If it's something where the developers can reasonably expect me to complete a successful run in under 30 minutes (like, say, an old Contra game), then I don't mind them too much. On the other hand, if the game is longer than an hour or exceptionally taxing (say, Blaster Master), then unlimited continues are definitely a bad idea.

Now if one were to make a game nowadays, putting an optional credit limit in the options menu would probably be the the Correct Choice (TM). (A lot of games seem to have this today with "hardcore" or permadeath modes.)
 

ShakeWell

Slam Master
(he, etc.)
But fighting the final boss of a brutally difficult game and knowing you've got ONE LAST CHANCE can up the tension in ways that knowing "fuck it I can just do it again" can't.

I mean, I guess, and the few times I've been there and done the thing, it feels quite good. But all the times I didn't, a lot of them ended in me just being like "ok, fuck this, I'm never playing this bullshit again." And I don't think I'm alone.

I think if the intent or conception of the game is one predicated on overcoming a particular challenge then that is part of the identity of the game. That is to say, a game's difficulty is part of what makes the game what it is, a piece of its identity and part of the unique character that defines the game in the world of this medium. I feel like player convenience trumps all other considerations of game design most of the time, and maybe that's right and correct, but at the same time I wonder what might be lost when we only look at games through the lens of how much they placate the player.

I tend to agree, to an extent, but I also feel like if I paid $X for your game, you can let me play how I want. And, honestly, if the game is difficult because it limits my tries, then makes me do all the early stages I know how to do again, just so I can get another shot at a boss who will cheap-shot me until I either figure out how to cheap-shot him or just lose my continues again and get sent back, then nah. Ninja Gaiden is infamously difficult, but you get as many chances as you want to take on that difficulty. Like Sarge said, limiting me to 5 continues in Ninja Gaiden III didn't make the game itself harder, it just made people more frustrated.

Speaking of the cheap-shot thing, that's the situation that led me to this. Neo Zeed in Revenge of Shinobi is a complete bullshit artist, and quite hard to take down, unless you know exactly how. Exactly how is make sure you have a POW and at least two magic uses. Use the invincibility magic and just stand in his hitbox slashing him with the sword. When the magic wears off, immediately cast it again before he hits you and you lose your POW. Do this 2-3 times and he goes down like a chump.

EDIT: @RT-55J Yeah, optional stuff I totally get. Like, the S+ Rank on the RE2 remake. You can only save three times. Pick where they are carefully, because that's all you get, and when you die, you have to reload your last save. But that's an optional for super players kind of thing, not the game's default mechanics.
 
Since it was sort of mentioned, I feel at some point about 10 years ago all these "modern" style games (long ass 3D games with full saving and no concept of game overs) started doing hardcore modes and other similiar modes as the final difficulty setting. I'm going to go ahead and lump together a lot of stuff like:
  • modes where you can't even die once (save deleted upon death), or
  • modes where you can't even get hit once, or
  • modes where saving is limited to chapter breaks, which can be 2 hours apart
I've NEVER seen a modern game do that where I've thought "yeah, this is the right difficulty design for this type of game".

This is coming from someone who plays and enjoys Turok 1 & 2, two fairly hard FPSes that are 10-15 hours long with thousands of pits to fall into and when lose all your lives you have to start all over. The difference is that there is enough slack in the system (you can get more lives, and losing an individual life isn't punishing) that you don't have to be Mr. Perfect to get a comfortable buffer.

On the other hand, when something has so little leniency... and has no way build a buffer.., and where one mistake costs tons of progress in a slow ass game that usually one has brief moments of challenge... That's just dumb as a "difficulty setting". Let's call it what it is: a really hard self-imposed challenge. I love those, but people purposely choose ones that are in line with their abilities. The purpose of difficulty settings is provide the player with convenient (if arbitrary) degrees of non-perfect play to aim for so that these degrees feel like psychologically meaningful goals. By this argument, there is no reason a no death run/no hit run should be a difficulty setting because it is already conveniently accessible (you can do it yourself, no explicit programming needed) and it innately feels psychologically meaningful without having to be singled out by the game.
 

Sarge

hardcore retro gamin'
@Sarge Achievements were a mistake.
Yeah, I only briefly sort of cared about achievements, now they don't matter. Setting your own goals is probably better, since some achievements require some ridiculous work, and I mean, I don't generally like to play games and feel like I'm working.
 

4-So

Spicy
Limited continues is a disrespect of my time in a medium that already has more games than you could reasonably play to completion in a lifetime and, by Joe, they just keep making more of 'em. When you factor in the number of movies to watch, books to read, albums to listen to, and so on, there is not enough time to deal with antiquated horseshit like limited continues. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule but that's academic at this point: I can't think of a single game with limited continues that's so great and engaging that I'm willing to put up with it.
 

MrBlarney

(he / him)
EDIT: I just rewatched Game Maker Toolkit's video on Lives systems, which is essentially what I was trying to say in my post, but polished. In case you wanted a tl;dr. Original post follows.

-----

My gut instinct was to say "Yes", limited continues are outdated, which is how I voted. After reading the discussion and putting some thought into it, I think there's a little bit more nuance to them, but not so much to not still be essentially "Yes".

The essence of a continue system is to pick up at a checkpoint without losing all of your game progress. I would consider save systems to be a type of continue system. So the idea of having limited continues reads to me like having limited saves; that feels a bit silly to me.

Lives, on the other hand, we can have a healthier debate about. There are absolutely places in game designs where limited lives make sense, and other places where infinite lives makes sense.

But one way you could think of lives are as non-permanent checkpoints, and (infinite) continues as permanent checkpoints. If you think about lives and continues both as different types of checkpoints, then their use cases collapse somewhat more nicely.

Instant-respawn platformers like Celeste or Super Meat Boy which feature infinite lives often don't feature continues, because the challenges that you need to get across are built to be permanent checkpoint to permanent checkpoint. Continues are kind of meaningless, assuming that the game lets you save in any safe spot.

Traditional platformers like the modern 2-D Marios and Donkey Kongs feature limited lives, but you get infinite continues. You have a certain amount of lives to get through a level, overcoming a series of challenges, with some in-level checkpoints for intermediate progress. But you don't get to bank your progress until you can show that you can get through all of a level's challenges on a limited number of mistakes. Getting a game over is a relatively minor setback. If the game is well designed, the earlier challenges should prepare the player to take on the later challenges through theme and escalating difficulty in case they need to start over. I think that most people accept games that require this level of proficiency from its players.

But games with a limited number of lives and limited continues are somewhat antiquated in this day and age. I suppose that if a game has limited continues, then there's an inherent nature for it to be short enough to be completable in a single sitting, so maybe there's an argument to be made that it's acceptable for a game to require full-game proficiency. But if there are difficulty spikes late in the game that the rest of the game does not prepare the player for, then a limited set of continues may not be enough before sending the player back to the start, to complete stages with mechanics for which they have already proven themselves. It can sometimes be far too long to get back to where you are compared to games with more liberal, permanent checkpoints.

Sidescrolling (or vertical) shooters or retro platformers (with a smaller number of stages) could do well with a stage select, if they must adhere to a limited continue policy. But then stage select is essentially a permanent checkpoint, and so is analogous to having infinite continues. For shooters in particular, if a continue starts the player right where they left off, the continue is essentially just extra lives. I'm actually okay for shooters to have limited continues in that respect, so as to require some mastery of the game in order to see the ending.

And on that note, I heartily welcome features that either get around a limited lives or continues system, or encourage mastery of the game under limited lives and continues. On the former side, the aforementioned modern Mario and Donkey Kong 2-D platformers feature super powerups for those who need a little push to see themselves through a particularly tough stage. I believe Crash Bandicoot 4 allows the player the option to have either the traditional limited lives per level, or to let players take as many tries as they need to per level. These features allow for additional leeway in player skill for those that need it, without diminishing a healthy level of challenge for players that don't.

As for the latter side, I have to admit the examples of challenge achievements featuring speedrun or low-damage requirements do fit the bill. 1-credit-clear challenges are a standard for horizontal / vertical shooters. Same for hardcore modes that bake in those challenges. But those are fine as long as they're extras, and the main game has the right checkpointing system via lives, continues, and saves that give the best experience to the majority of players.
 
Last edited:

LBD_Nytetrayn

..and his little cat, too
(He/him)
I don't think any of the options quite encapsulate how I feel about them. For most games, yeah, it's not great. I like checkpointing with unlimited continues in most genres. The place where I don't think this holds up, though, is in shoot-'em-ups that let you continue in place. While I will always enjoy credit-feeding my way to victory in arcade games (and let's be real, the balance is often tilted towards encouraging that behavior), I think a well-balanced number of continues/lives in those games can make the experience more meaningful, forcing you to learn patterns to get through.

I think game length factors into this, too. A game that is normally less than an hour doesn't kill me if I have limited continues. A game like Blaster Master, though, should never have limited continues due to its length. Difficulty factors in, too - changing Ninja Gaiden III to limited continues was horrible. Battletoads is the very definition of a trial-and-error game that shouldn't have such a limited pool of continues.

Games that let you earn extra continues, though, like Bionic Commando, are a-ok in my book.

I voted yes, but then something akin to this came to mind as an exception.

To compare two points:

In the TMNT arcade game, you continue right where you died. Limited continues serve a purpose there by keeping you from spamming your way to the end, almost counterintuitively to what you would expect of a quarter-muncher.

In the NES version, you have to restart the stage from the beginning if you continue. When you're effectively sent back to Point Zero for the stage, I don't see much difference in giving you two continues or a million, besides making you repeat earlier stuff. That I don't like.
 

FelixSH

(He/Him)
It's fine. Continues/lives/respawns etc. exist in different game in different ways for different reasons. It's more important that it "fits" than there being One True Way™. For instance, Super Meat Boy without instant respawns and infinite tries would be a God damn nightmare, but it doesn't have that because of how that game is. But fighting the final boss of a brutally difficult game and knowing you've got ONE LAST CHANCE can up the tension in ways that knowing "fuck it I can just do it again" can't. As I said, as long as it "fits" what the game is trying to do, it's fine.

Right, I normally don't try this, because I (generally) don't get joy out of repeating stuff I already did, but I get what you are saying. Beating long games in one go feels pretty exciting. I beat the first world of Super Meat Boy in one go, without losing a life (there is an achievement, you see), and it was a really good feeling to beat this challenge. Didn't think of that, when I wrote my answer (also, it was part midnight).

I feel like a lot of game discourse is stuck on the question "is this game fun?" That seems like a limiting view to me, one that ignores the range of being that a game can inhabit. A game's character can be unfun, frustrating, sloppy, haphazard, unconsidered, or unfair. All these contribute to the game's character. It's state of being. Once we remove the need to justify a game's "fun factor" I feel we can appreciate the breath of character that is available in this medium.

Totally agreed, as long as it is an intentional desicion, to have lifes and continues. I feel like a lot of games just had these things for years, just out of inertia - lifes and continues were part of the lexicon of video games since the start, so the idea that you don't HAVE to have them was a lesson that took a long time to learn. And I feel like many games just included them for a long time, just because they are in a video game, because it's a video game.

But yeah, if one decides to include limited continues, because the person thinks that is an inherent part of the game, than that is totally fine. I mean, it's fine, even if it is made out of inertia, I guess. Games are how they are. But at least I spoke more from the perspective of "do I get something out of it?" I generally don't, except in single, special cases. But that's why this thread is interesting, I like to learn why different people might like limited continues.

By this argument, there is no reason a no death run/no hit run should be a difficulty setting because it is already conveniently accessible (you can do it yourself, no explicit programming needed) and it innately feels psychologically meaningful without having to be singled out by the game.

I disagree, because I get a lot more out of a challenge, if it isn't self-imposed. Take Celeste, for example. Under normal circumstances, I would NEVER think of beating one of these stages without losing a life. Or Shovel Knight - beating any of the campaigns without losing a life is a crazy-hard challenge. Way too hard for me.

Except that there are achievements. And I don't mean that in the sense of "I need to do this, because achievements are my ultimate goal." Just knowing that this is a challenge that was intended to be offered from the programmer makes these challenges interesting to me, and I get joy out of them.

On the other hand, I have never done any self-imposed challenges. Whenever I try one, I just feel like there is no need to restrict myself. I need this external motivation, it just makes the challenge more real to me.

I totally understand that this is a weird way to interact with challenges of this kind, but that's just the way my brain works. To me, it actually is only meaningful, if a game singles the challenge out.
 

madhair60

Video games
It's fine. Continues/lives/respawns etc. exist in different game in different ways for different reasons. It's more important that it "fits" than there being One True Way™. For instance, Super Meat Boy without instant respawns and infinite tries would be a God damn nightmare, but it doesn't have that because of how that game is. But fighting the final boss of a brutally difficult game and knowing you've got ONE LAST CHANCE can up the tension in ways that knowing "fuck it I can just do it again" can't. As I said, as long as it "fits" what the game is trying to do, it's fine.

This, basically
 

Fyonn

did their best!
Limited continues are fine. Many scrolling shooters would be significantly worse games if you were able to credit feed through them, especially the ones that just respawn you instead of having checkpoints and checkpoint recovery strats.

The shorter the game is, the more acceptable it is to have limited continues.

Final Fantasy X would be a nightmarish garbage fire if you could only continue a few times before having to start over. Any Touhou game would be completely trivial (if you're willing to take a bad end) if you had infinite continues.

I'm all for infinite continues as a difficulty mode for shmups, though, Cute Mode in Maiden And Spell gives you infinite continues. But Maiden And Spell is extremely generous with extra continues on all the non-Nightmare difficulties, handing one out every three or so boss phases if you're below the cap of four. And seeing as Maiden And Spell is a versus shmup, it's only boss phases.
 
The most BS thing possible is when continuing is disabled at a certain point in the game, regardless of whether you've used any or not. There's quite a few 80s SEGA arcade games notorious for this. Lose on the final level and you don't even get the option to continue on the level before it - your game is over.
 

Gaer

chat.exe a cessé de fonctionner
Staff member
Moderator
@Sarge Achievements were a mistake.
Fucking this. I hate them. It isn’t like they give you anything the way they are implemented on consoles/Steam.

Achievements like the challenges in Goldeneye or other games which either unlock special things are a different story. (FFXIV achievements often unlock special user titles, mounts, as well as glamour skins for gear.)

But gamerscores?? Trophies?? They can go right in the bin along with limited continues.
 
Top